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Posted: 3/28/2018 6:21:10 AM EDT
[#1]
It's going to be up to the Courts which means they will need test cases.
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Posted: 3/28/2018 6:52:14 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's going to be up to the Courts which means they will need test cases. |
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Posted: 3/28/2018 11:16:01 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Anybody find any clarification yet on what actually falls into "rate increasing devices" I am afraid that those that don't pay close attention to the new law, thinking that "they don't own a bump stock" are going to unknowingly violate the new law, possessing some other device. I think the scariest part is the fact that you don't have to "use" the device in order to violate the statute. Just having it in a drawer, in your workshop, is a felony. So, 20 years ago when you walked through the gun show and picked up that silly "crank" that is now somewhere in the back of a drawer, now makes you a felon. And you probably never even bothered to take it to the range and try it out. 790.222 Bump-fire stocks prohibited.— A person may not import into this state or transfer, distribute, sell, keep for sale, offer for sale, possess, or give to another person a bump fire stock. A person who violates this section commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 741 775.083, or s. 775.084. As used in this section, the term “bump fire stock” means a conversion kit, a tool, an accessory, or a device used to alter the rate of fire of a firearm to mimic automatic weapon fire or which is used to increase the rate of fire to a faster rate than is possible for a person to fire such semiautomatic firearm unassisted by a kit, a tool, an accessory, or a device. |
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Posted: 3/28/2018 12:05:18 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't see this as enforceable at all. I myself will not enforce the law if on the road as it does not specify for me how to satisfy the most important element... and that is "increased rate of fire". I'll be glad to have one of my guys submit a report to the SAO for warrant consideration, and ask FDLE's firearms lab to distinguish what the rifle can and cannot do, then provide the necessary forensic evidence to satisfy the required element... other than that, I still have a legal and ethical obligation to consider arrest/enforcement action based on PC when a law is violated if I have facts and information to support that PC. ETA- and w/o the above information, I don't believe I have PC. One of the most important aspects of PC is the Officer's BELIEF that the elements of a crime have been met. The design of the FCG renders the AR capable of firing faster than most people can pull the trigger... all a bump stock does is help reach what the rifle is capable of by design... it does not "increase" the rifle's rate of fire per se mechanically, at least that's how I see it. |
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Posted: 3/28/2018 12:11:56 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would you enforce the law if it were a ban on AR15's - or 'assault' weapons, hi cap magazines, etc? Not going to comment on what if stuff. |
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Posted: 3/28/2018 2:50:13 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I will post the statute, to show how vague it is. You can see that it will be hard to know what device(s) may violate the statute. I am afraid that those that don't pay close attention to the new law, thinking that "they don't own a bump stock" are going to unknowingly violate the new law, possessing some other device. I think the scariest part is the fact that you don't have to "use" the device in order to violate the statute. Just having it in a drawer, in your workshop, is a felony. So, 20 years ago when you walked through the gun show and picked up that silly "crank" that is now somewhere in the back of a drawer, now makes you a felon. And you probably never even bothered to take it to the range and try it out. 790.222 Bump-fire stocks prohibited.— A person may not import into this state or transfer, distribute, sell, keep for sale, offer for sale, possess, or give to another person a bump fire stock. A person who violates this section commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 741 775.083, or s. 775.084. As used in this section, the term “bump fire stock” means a conversion kit, a tool, an accessory, or a device used to alter the rate of fire of a firearm to mimic automatic weapon fire or which is used to increase the rate of fire to a faster rate than is possible for a person to fire such semiautomatic firearm unassisted by a kit, a tool, an accessory, or a device. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Anybody find any clarification yet on what actually falls into "rate increasing devices" I am afraid that those that don't pay close attention to the new law, thinking that "they don't own a bump stock" are going to unknowingly violate the new law, possessing some other device. I think the scariest part is the fact that you don't have to "use" the device in order to violate the statute. Just having it in a drawer, in your workshop, is a felony. So, 20 years ago when you walked through the gun show and picked up that silly "crank" that is now somewhere in the back of a drawer, now makes you a felon. And you probably never even bothered to take it to the range and try it out. 790.222 Bump-fire stocks prohibited.— A person may not import into this state or transfer, distribute, sell, keep for sale, offer for sale, possess, or give to another person a bump fire stock. A person who violates this section commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 741 775.083, or s. 775.084. As used in this section, the term “bump fire stock” means a conversion kit, a tool, an accessory, or a device used to alter the rate of fire of a firearm to mimic automatic weapon fire or which is used to increase the rate of fire to a faster rate than is possible for a person to fire such semiautomatic firearm unassisted by a kit, a tool, an accessory, or a device. |
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Posted: 3/28/2018 7:52:10 PM EDT
[#7]
Out of curiosity what is a Floridian supposed to do with his or her bump stock before the new law goes into effect? Is there any reimbursement for stripping away an item they legally obtained that will now be deemed illegal? Or do those who have em just have to fork em over or provide proof of destruction..?
I remember reading something not long ago after CA banned standard capacity mags that hardly any had been turned in... maybe they were all independently destroyed by their owners. Or I guess maybe they were all pinned at 10 rnds. Just curious how that part of the new law there is worded... |
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Posted: 3/28/2018 8:46:54 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Out of curiosity what is a Floridian supposed to do with his or her bump stock before the new law goes into effect? Is there any reimbursement for stripping away an item they legally obtained that will now be deemed illegal? Or do those who have em just have to fork em over or provide proof of destruction..? I remember reading something not long ago after CA banned standard capacity mags that hardly any had been turned in... maybe they were all independently destroyed by their owners. Or I guess maybe they were all pinned at 10 rnds. Just curious how that part of the new law there is worded... 790.222 Bump-fire stocks prohibited.— A person may not import into this state or transfer, distribute, sell, keep for sale, offer for sale, possess, or give to another person a bump fire stock. A person who violates this section commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 741 775.083, or s. 775.084. As used in this section, the term “bump fire stock” means a conversion kit, a tool, an accessory, or a device used to alter the rate of fire of a firearm to mimic automatic weapon fire or which is used to increase the rate of fire to a faster rate than is possible for a person to fire such semiautomatic firearm unassisted by a kit, a tool, an accessory, or a device. Some people will attempt to sell them out of state before that part of the law takes effect in October, some will stash them away silently knowing they are committing felony, some will turn them in to police or destroy them. Hopefully law suits against the state will follow. |
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Posted: 3/29/2018 1:40:55 AM EDT
[#9]
Have to wait and see, but I have a few comments.
You can bet your bottom dollar right now that means any and all versions of "bump stocks." I bet that also means trigger cranks. BUT, a few things to note about the law. 1) Statutes can be void for vagueness and citizens have to be under notice of what is actually prohibited. If a statute is too vague, it doesn't tell citizens what they can and can't do. That's exactly the situation we're in right now. We haven't a clue what they really mean here, so a reasonable Judge should ask "If you don't tell them what is prohibited, how can they expected to know and avoid it?" Eventually the state is going to have to issue guidelines or there will be a test case where a Judge will either throw that portion of the law out or establish guidelines in the decision. 2) Statutes can also be void for being too broad. Generally speaking, laws have to be fairly narrowly-tailored to address a specific purpose. If the law is so broad that it could encompass something like a basic spring or trigger, the court might be inclined to say "whoa whoa whoa, slow down. This is too broad." Basically, we'll just have to keep an eye on it. But get rid of your bumpstocks...the damn statute names them specifically in the name of the section. They're toast. |
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Posted: 3/29/2018 7:37:33 AM EDT
[#10]
I agree their description of a bump stock is way to vague. It lists the device as a "Bump Stock", but the description allows for pretty much anything that could increase the rate of fire of a firearm. Well, does anyone think a trigger, trigger spring, crank, binary trigger, or rubber band look like a "stock?" An aggressive attorney could claim any part of a rifle can increase the rate of fire, including a muzzle device, forward grip, magazine, red dot, laser, etc. What exactly is the standard, a muzzle loader? If so, then ammunition itself increases the rate of fire. That's how poorly this law was written, and I'm not sure it was by mistake.
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Posted: 3/29/2018 10:19:57 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Basically, we'll just have to keep an eye on it. But get rid of your bumpstocks...the damn statute names them specifically in the name of the section. They're toast. As the statute does not define how you measure rate of fire or for that matter what "increases" is relative to it could be argued that even an actual bump stock isn't banned because it doesn't increase rate of fire (if rate of fire has the more common meaning on how quickly the gun can reset itself to fire another shot). |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 1:08:26 PM EDT
[#12]
Most "bump" stocks also have a pin that lets then function like a normal fixed stock. Courts are going to have fun with this one.
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Posted: 3/30/2018 2:05:20 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Most "bump" stocks also have a pin that lets then function like a normal fixed stock. Courts are going to have fun with this one. Taken one step farther, if the pin is superglued in place is that enough to convert the bump stock to a stock? |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 5:28:51 PM EDT
[#14]
They certainly managed to push this turd law though the process even faster than they could write it.
Just goes to show you that when they really want to enact legislation, they can slip a bill through all of the committees, both houses, and the governor's desk like greased lightning. Open carry on the other hand........... 
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Posted: 4/1/2018 9:56:38 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They certainly managed to push this turd law though the process even faster than they could write it. Just goes to show you that when they really want to enact legislation, they can slip a bill through all of the committees, both houses, and the governor's desk like greased lightning. Open carry on the other hand........... |
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Posted: 4/1/2018 11:10:22 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
People keep talking of "compromise." Politicians keep compromising our rights in an attempt to further their political aspirations, but what have we gotten in return? |
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Posted: 4/2/2018 11:59:21 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Out of curiosity what is a Floridian supposed to do with his or her bump stock before the new law goes into effect? |
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Posted: 4/2/2018 12:36:02 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Funny how gun owners are the worst at maneuvering a Boat in the water... Im sure they don't make things crystal clear they just probably say "get rid of it"... dumm. I like the idea posted above about glueing or otherwise securing the pin as to not allow it to bump, atleast that way you could possibly keep it. 
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Posted: 4/2/2018 2:44:26 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was just curious bro. Im not in Florida and I've never experienced any sort of ban as an adult. Im sure they don't make things crystal clear they just probably say "get rid of it"... dumm. I like the idea posted above about glueing or otherwise securing the pin as to not allow it to bump, atleast that way you could possibly keep it. |
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Posted: 4/7/2018 5:44:43 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pretty clear. Get rid of it by October 1 or become a felon. However, come October 1, I wouldn't want to be a boat on the water as everyone will be having freak boating accidents that day.... |
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Posted: 4/8/2018 4:59:17 PM EDT
[#21]
I was more referring to whether or not the jagoffs that wrote the law gave instructions on actually getting rid of it. I was just curious as I do not live in FL and don't even own a bump stock.
You guys think they'll take another run at banning ARs in the near future/next ballot? Florida is generally a well balanced state regarding republican vs libturds in office compared to the left coast right? What I mean is 2A rights are generally much safer in FL than say CA, OR and WA right? Trying to ascertain whether this horseshit will die off after the bumpstocks or are these fuggers gonna run this shit til the wheels fall off? Opionions on that? |
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Posted: 4/8/2018 5:51:50 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was more referring to whether or not the jagoffs that wrote the law gave instructions on actually getting rid of it. I was just curious as I do not live in FL and don't even own a bump stock. You guys think they'll take another run at banning ARs in the near future/next ballot? Florida is generally a well balanced state regarding republican vs libturds in office compared to the left coast right? What I mean is 2A rights are generally much safer in FL than say CA, OR and WA right? Trying to ascertain whether this horseshit will die off after the bumpstocks or are these fuggers gonna run this shit til the wheels fall off? Opionions on that? |
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Posted: 4/11/2018 2:34:07 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah I read it during the Committee vote, I guess we will see who will be the first one arrested at the range for shooting "too fast" |
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Posted: 4/11/2018 8:03:50 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had brought this up in another thread. Will we see ranges discouraging or outright prohibiting rapid fire, if they had not already, in order to not draw attention of law enforcement. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Yeah I read it during the Committee vote, I guess we will see who will be the first one arrested at the range for shooting "too fast" |
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Posted: 4/13/2018 6:53:34 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, Im having a hard time finding any kind of range around pensacola that lets you do any kind of rapid fire drills, Probably should just buy land or join a good club |
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Posted: 4/13/2018 7:07:10 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was more referring to whether or not the jagoffs that wrote the law gave instructions on actually getting rid of it. I was just curious as I do not live in FL and don't even own a bump stock. You guys think they'll take another run at banning ARs in the near future/next ballot? Florida is generally a well balanced state regarding republican vs libturds in office compared to the left coast right? What I mean is 2A rights are generally much safer in FL than say CA, OR and WA right? Trying to ascertain whether this horseshit will die off after the bumpstocks or are these fuggers gonna run this shit til the wheels fall off? Opionions on that? |
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Posted: 4/13/2018 7:23:41 PM EDT
[#27]
I still can't wrap my mind around the concept of an American Citizen "committing a felony" passively by not destroying or otherwise doing away with legally purchased and previously legally owned personal property.
The government, and not the individual, has committed the act that will create felons of law abiding citizens. This is a very big deal that transcends the bump stock issue. |
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Posted: 4/13/2018 11:34:52 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I still can't wrap my mind around the concept of an American Citizen "committing a felony" passively by not destroying or otherwise doing away with legally purchased and previously legally owned personal property. The government, and not the individual, has committed the act that will create felons of law abiding citizens. This is a very big deal that transcends the bump stock issue. The Slippery Slope beyond just the bump stock ban issue... What other legal product currently is next on the Government future chopping block list... High Cap Mags ? Blade Stocks ? I don’t like the precedent that was set with 7026 at all under FSS 791.101 |
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Posted: 4/15/2018 1:29:37 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Amen on that! ERML stopped MG firing (said it was a unanimous vote...it wasn't...I was there and did not vote for the ban). PRPC board of directors also voted against full auto fire after 2 non members violated the rule of no long bursts (~10 rounds or less bursts used to be OK). I'm lucky...for MG testing (a new load, new parts, new mag, whatever, just want to fire a burst, have the grand kids over to shoot) I just let me wife know I'll be in the pasture or front yard MG shooting. Or, I have the combination to the gate at a neighbor's property 2 miles away with a backstop and they allow MG/rapid fire. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Yep, Im having a hard time finding any kind of range around pensacola that lets you do any kind of rapid fire drills, Probably should just buy land or join a good club Sorry for derailment |
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Posted: 4/15/2018 9:15:00 AM EDT
[#30]
Just wondering, what if people legitimately don't even know about this new law?
They have a bumpstock, but don't know about this new law, or didn't realize the law was being enforced on such and such date and they get hemmed up. (No, I don't have a bumpstock btw). What kind of notification process is there of this new law, if any? Or is it just too bad, so sad? You didn't know of the law, now your f'd. |
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Posted: 4/15/2018 9:23:34 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I still can't wrap my mind around the concept of an American Citizen "committing a felony" passively by not destroying or otherwise doing away with legally purchased and previously legally owned personal property. The government, and not the individual, has committed the act that will create felons of law abiding citizens. This is a very big deal that transcends the bump stock issue. |
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Posted: 4/15/2018 9:58:21 AM EDT
[#32]
The Florida State Constitution regarding the topic of firearms, in particular section 8 paragraph (a).
Is the bump stock law even constitutional? SECTION 8. Right to bear arms.— (a) The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the state shall not be infringed, except that the manner of bearing arms may be regulated by law. (b) There shall be a mandatory period of three days, excluding weekends and legal holidays, between the purchase and delivery at retail of any handgun. For the purposes of this section, “purchase” means the transfer of money or other valuable consideration to the retailer, and “handgun” means a firearm capable of being carried and used by one hand, such as a pistol or revolver. Holders of a concealed weapon permit as prescribed in Florida law shall not be subject to the provisions of this paragraph. (c) The legislature shall enact legislation implementing subsection (b) of this section, effective no later than December 31, 1991, which shall provide that anyone violating the provisions of subsection (b) shall be guilty of a felony. (d) This restriction shall not apply to a trade in of another handgun. History.—Am. C.S. for S.J.R. 43, 1989; adopted 1990. |
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Posted: 4/15/2018 10:38:49 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Amen on that! ERML stopped MG firing (said it was a unanimous vote...it wasn't...I was there and did not vote for the ban). PRPC board of directors also voted against full auto fire after 2 non members violated the rule of no long bursts (~10 rounds or less bursts used to be OK). I'm lucky...for MG testing (a new load, new parts, new mag, whatever, just want to fire a burst, have the grand kids over to shoot) I just let me wife know I'll be in the pasture or front yard MG shooting. Or, I have the combination to the gate at a neighbor's property 2 miles away with a backstop and they allow MG/rapid fire. |
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Posted: 4/15/2018 6:46:50 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've never seen a range in Florida allow rapid fire unless they had some sort of private area. As far as I am concerned, you couldn't shoot bump stocks unless you owned a lot of land which very few people do. What the future will bring, who knows. |
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Posted: 4/19/2018 10:44:41 AM EDT
[#35]
Looking at the language:
....than is possible for a person to fire such semiautomatic firearm unassisted by a kit, a tool, an accessory, or a device. So if you are able to bump fire the semiautomatic firearm unassisted by any other device and produce an equal or superior rate of fire, it becomes very hard for them to prove that any device accomplishes that. |
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Posted: 4/19/2018 1:14:08 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looking at the language: ....than is possible for a person to fire such semiautomatic firearm unassisted by a kit, a tool, an accessory, or a device. So if you are able to bump fire the semiautomatic firearm unassisted by any other device and produce an equal or superior rate of fire, it becomes very hard for them to prove that any device accomplishes that. |
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Posted: 4/19/2018 4:27:02 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've never seen a range in Florida allow rapid fire unless they had some sort of private area. As far as I am concerned, you couldn't shoot bump stocks unless you owned a lot of land which very few people do. |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 8:21:28 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Webb does every other Sunday |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 9:54:38 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I will post the statute, to show how vague it is. You can see that it will be hard to know what device(s) may violate the statute. I am afraid that those that don't pay close attention to the new law, thinking that "they don't own a bump stock" are going to unknowingly violate the new law, possessing some other device. I think the scariest part is the fact that you don't have to "use" the device in order to violate the statute. Just having it in a drawer, in your workshop, is a felony. So, 20 years ago when you walked through the gun show and picked up that silly "crank" that is now somewhere in the back of a drawer, now makes you a felon. And you probably never even bothered to take it to the range and try it out. 790.222 Bump-fire stocks prohibited.— A person may not import into this state or transfer, distribute, sell, keep for sale, offer for sale, possess, or give to another person a bump fire stock. A person who violates this section commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 741 775.083, or s. 775.084. As used in this section, the term “bump fire stock” means a conversion kit, a tool, an accessory, or a device used to alter the rate of fire of a firearm to mimic automatic weapon fire or which is used to increase the rate of fire to a faster rate than is possible for a person to fire such semiautomatic firearm unassisted by a kit, a tool, an accessory, or a device. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Anybody find any clarification yet on what actually falls into "rate increasing devices" I am afraid that those that don't pay close attention to the new law, thinking that "they don't own a bump stock" are going to unknowingly violate the new law, possessing some other device. I think the scariest part is the fact that you don't have to "use" the device in order to violate the statute. Just having it in a drawer, in your workshop, is a felony. So, 20 years ago when you walked through the gun show and picked up that silly "crank" that is now somewhere in the back of a drawer, now makes you a felon. And you probably never even bothered to take it to the range and try it out. 790.222 Bump-fire stocks prohibited.— A person may not import into this state or transfer, distribute, sell, keep for sale, offer for sale, possess, or give to another person a bump fire stock. A person who violates this section commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 741 775.083, or s. 775.084. As used in this section, the term “bump fire stock” means a conversion kit, a tool, an accessory, or a device used to alter the rate of fire of a firearm to mimic automatic weapon fire or which is used to increase the rate of fire to a faster rate than is possible for a person to fire such semiautomatic firearm unassisted by a kit, a tool, an accessory, or a device. |
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Posted: 4/20/2018 2:20:42 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's that part that to me makes this easy to challenge. I can bump fire every single one of my rifles, without any mods. What about my thumbs? Stupid law is absurd. |
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