Been a while since I sold a gun FTF.
Can I still sell a handgun to a TX resident
With just a bill of sale?purchaser has Tx
DL and LTC
My thanks in advance
PS will a shop like FGC do PO xfers?

Bill of sale not required.
Transfer not required.
Meet, exchange funds for hardware, done.

Don’t need to even show ID. Much less a Bill of Sale.

Just says you can’t sell to someone who’s a felon or unable to purchase from an FFL.

Have a good sale.

This is the legal requirement.   In a Private Party Sale, the Private Seller is not required to run Buyer through a 4473 w/ background check via FFL in Texas.

However, I do ask if they are a felon, drug addict, illegal alien, dishonorably discharged or under indictment for a felony or have a restraining order.   They could lie, but at least I asked.

If it is someone I don't know, or is not from ARFCOM, I may ask to see TX ID and shoot a picture of my DL & Buyers DL so they have record of who they bought from (me) and I have a record of who I sold too (them) or vice versa if I'm buying.  So far, no one has voiced any issue or objection.

If buyer doesn't like it then I might not be selling to them especially if I feel their vibe is 'off'.

BIGGER_HAMMER

I don't know what FCG is, but many (but not all) dealers will accept a firearm and send it to another dealer in another state to complete a sale out of state.  Using a dealer is absolutely not necessary for in state transfers in Texas.  You can sell FTF with nothing more than an exchange of cash for the firearm.

You just can't sell to anyone who you know to be a prohibited person or underage or in some cases someone you know not to be a legal resident of Texas.  You're not really even required to ask if they are any of those thing, although many people do.  You do not need to ask for ID, although many people do.

You do not need to use a bill of sale.  In fact, many people don't recommend it, because creating and keeping a paper trail can possibly be used against you.  Since documents like that can so easily be created and/or forged they really offer very little legal protection.

Someone with a TX DL and LTC, you're GTG, more than you need.

Then why not just invite them over for dinner while you're at it? You just gave some stranger your full name, address and birthdate. He already knows you have guns, now he knows where he and his friends can go to shop for more. Asking to view their DL or LTC? Sure, no problem, but my thumb is going to cover up everything other than my photo.

I'm an FFL. I agreed to follow certain rules and regulations because that's what's required to get and keep my FFL. You aren't. So why the heck do you require more than the absolute minimum required for a nonlicensee to nonlicensee sale?

Buyer gives Seller $$$.
Buyer takes the firearm.
Thats it. That's all. Enjoy that smell, 'cause it's the smell of freedom those in other states don't have.

The only cautions? You can only sell or buy from another resident of Texas and have no reason to believe they are otherwise prohibited by law from possessing a firearm.

Bills of sale for private party transfers are worthless.  A BOS doesn't protect anyone. It's merely a receipt or proof of purchase that gives everyone warm fuzzies.

A few years ago a friend sold a gun to a guy at a gun show.  Guy gives cash, guy gets gun.  No ID shown.  Friend had bought thru an FFL, so, owner of record.  A few months later dealer gets a trace call.  Had to give the name and address of who he sold it too.  Note, dealer was also a personal friend of both of us.  Turns out gun was used in a crime in Houston.  Dealer notifies friend of the trace.  Friend gets a knock on the door, two detectives.  Had to spend a couple hours proving he was not in Houston at the time of the crime.  Bottom line, do whatever you want, but personally I will not sell to anyone without checking their ID and taking down their DL or LTC number.  Don't like it, no sale.  I have never needed the money that bad.

Your friend didn't need to prove anything.  He didn't need to tell them anything.  He should have told the detectives to talk to his lawyer.  I'm not a lawyer but unless they've got more than just a trace, I don't think they have enough to make an arrest.  People let themselves be intimidated by strong arm tactics too often.

This.

So, because you say you sold me a gun, means you sold me a gun? Maybe I say you didn't sell me a gun. And how did you get my info, Identity theft is terrible these days.

One morning I heard knocking at my front door.   I opened the door to find two stern faced investigators from the Travis County Sheriffs office.

They asked if I owned a Glock XX that I purchased from YY on Date ZZ (about a year ago), which I replied I had, but had sold it about 4 months prior.

Turns out it had been recovered at a Major Crime scene, and the last 4473 on file was mine, which was why they were knocking on my door.

The Investigators were pretty happy when I was able to provide the name of the buyer & address along with the date of the sale.

Turns out that the buyer was already their prime suspect, and finding that the gun had been sold to that person confirmed they were on right path to build their case.

That was a long ways back, but after that incident, I've made sure that (A) I feel completely comfortable with the buyer (that guy was making my spider sense tingle - thus the date, name & address), and that (B) I've documented it to CYA for me either way Buying or Selling.  

Better than "Mr. Hammer, your firearm was found at a Major Crime Scene - We are taking you downtown to answer some questions for the next 6 or 8 hours before we decide if we will charge you with any Felonies"...

A bill of sale is absolutely not required.

In Texas the only legal requirement is that you do not sell a firearm to anyone you have reason to believe is legally prohibited from owning / possessing a firearm.

Note the specific negative wording.  


If you want to do anything more than look at my TX DL or LTC you should state so in your FTF ad.

In which case I will choose not to make an offer.

No harm no foul.

Whatever you do, don’t do more than the law requires. I seen that happen here in Washington state, guys were asking legal status then asking for a bill of sale then the dumb fucks voted to end FTF sales.

Fight that shit as much as possible. If someone wants more information than required by law then pass and tell them why.

I get about 12-15 ATF trace requests a year. A trace requests requires me to fax or email the 4473 for the buyer of that firearm.
In thirteen years, not one of my customers has been taken "downtown". Of you don't know the buyer, it doesn't incriminate you in the least.



 
If your spider senses were tingling....... don't continue with the sale. Knowing something isn't right and continuing? That there is called meat for the prosecution or plaintiffs attorney.





Felony for what exactly? This ain't LA or New York.

If you get questioned for 6-8 hours you need to watch more Law & Order reruns.

Does anyone else see the irony in bitching about the ATF and then creating and enforcing your own made up rules?

If I thought in some articulable way that something wasn't right (gang graffiti or neck tattoos or whatever).  I wouldn't have gone forward.  But sometimes we just have that little tingle that says...  "Nothing I can SEE or HEAR is "wrong" ...  but just the same not feeling exactly warm & fuzzy as it should.

Having had Two Investigators at your door to tell you "Your Gun you own show up a major crime scene - want to explain that?" ... NOT a Warm Fuzzy.   Anyway - I remembered the guys information because I had written it all down (name & address & directions (lived in the boonies) - this was pre-cell phone days).  Still had the paper and when the Investigators heard the buyers name...  (without any hint or "steering"...) it confirmed what the case turned out to be.

If YOU do your personal business your way - go to it.  

But after my experience, if I don't know the person (like a member on ARFCOM with decent positive feedback) - I get a picture of the ID.  If they don't want me to see their TXDL or CHL - then it could well be the person is trying to sell a stolen gun or other "problems" I'd rather not involve myself with.  

You do your personal business any way you like as long as it's lawful (and I'm sure you are of course 100% good to go).  

I'll do mine my way.  If there is something that I've learned on a LOT of "orbits around the old Sol", it is "document for your own protection".  My way isn't the only way so to each their own.  

Best Wishes,

BIGGER_HAMMER    

Have you heard about this new thing??  The Internet??

Evidently It is a series of "Tubes" that carry all sorts of information of just about everything.

All the cool kids say "it's just a fad", but I think it has some REAL Potential!

All kidding aside - If we do a FTF and meet up in a parking lot, Most often I can see you, your vehicle & license plate - right?

Five minutes later I know who & where the vehicle is registered.  From that information I can next match to see your DOB & TXDL #.

If I know only your name & city, I can search to find a match close to your estimated age & ethnicity.  

If your name is uncommon - it is very quick work.  Again, that leads to DOB, TXDL, Vehicles you have registered & address, and of course a quick property search via county tax office is also online (& free by the way).

These are things that occur not just with buying & selling.  These days even just going to the shooting range or gun store can leave you "exposed".  Thieves can do the same thing and know WHO & WHERE your reside without even having to follow you home.

Just saying...   Welcome to the Modern World - where privacy isn't private anymore.

BIGGER_HAMMER

Our Roof - Our Rules.

You want to ride in my Truck - No Smoking or Farting...

Unfair to some I'm sure, but My Way or the Highway...

I'd NEVER buy a gun from an individual that demanded a picture of my ID or a BOS.  Been there, done that.  So I'd never do business with you because your rules are stupid.

I'd also NEVER sell a gun to a person that I had concerns about.  Been there, done that.  Since you've done so in the past, will you continue to sell guns to questionable people that are willing to offer you pictures of their IDs (which could also be fake)?

I've been contacted ONCE by BATFE concerning a gun recovered in Suffolk County so I sent a picture of the gun to the agent to show him that someone had screwed up with the SN.  I asked him to return the gun to me since I was on file as the owner but he refused.  I've never had any other issues and not concerned by LE questioning me, assuming they can even find me.

So Comrade, how goes invasion of Ukraine?

The way you jump to conclusions, I'll bet you leaped clear across the Black Sea?

I doubt we'll be doing Any business, as I avoid shady people who misrepresent where they are from.

I'm one of the few people here that actually put a FLAG where I currently live so enjoy attacking me since you're going to feel the fool once you realize I'm a Texan living in Lviv which is closer to Poland (but I'm sure you must have seen me posting here over the past years).  I'm still a US citizen and Texas resident so I'm legal to buy firearms when I'm home.  I've read what you stated and also have read another thread where you were lambasted for your comments.  I'd like to see you attend a few of the HTF swap-meets and demand copy of ID or BOS, then watch reactions.

But since you've inquired.  Russia is being Russia so most of the locals just ignore this since it's been going on for 7 years.  I did watch the 82nd fighting Nazis last week down the street from my place.  It has been cold and wet which beats the weather back in Central Texas now.

ETA - just a few pictures if you need proof. Attached File
Attached File
Attached File
Attached File

Everyone thinks they’re an ATF agent on ARFCOM.

Probably worst case scenario.

Two years ago I was contacted by ATF. A Yugo M70 I had purchased and resold about 8 years before ended up recovered in Mexico. For some context, I work in LE doing firearms related crime work and work with ATF frequently. I knew this gun was traced back to the original 4473. I invited them inside because I originally thought it was work related. (Didn’t ask) Once they showed me the photocopies of my original form I just explained I did a private sale 8 years ago. I didn’t do a BOS. They seemed disappointed and I respectfully pointed out that I wasn’t legally required to do a BOS and that given all the time that had passed, the gun could have been resold 100+ times over. They understood and went about their way.

You’re not going to jail for this and the Agents were just doing their due diligence.

I like her bag.

Well, Congrats on your time in Ukraine.

Very Pretty Women there, (My Neighbor who is in mid upper 70's - a retired Army Helo Aviator from VN - has a very attractive Ukrainian blonde wife.  Slim, Trim, Always Smiling & Nice.  What's not to like when he's a old dog who has paid his dues...

I had assumed the UKR flag was just being "edge-lordy" like those who fly the Somalian or DPRNK flags...  Oops - My Bad...

Next time you come back to visit - bring some of that Hardware the Russians seem to have "Lost" that their Little Green Army Men "Found", like that BUK Launcher that swatted down the Malaysian Air flight.   Bring me a fresh T-72 or BMP & I won't even require a picture of your ID ...  

I've been to a number of the Texas HTF meet ups.  From the Old Centex Meet Ups, the Old Houston Meetups (back when Marshall brought his early Primary Arms optics for us to check out and SCTexas was with us.) I Organized the last Houston HTF Meet (Feb 2020 before everything went into lockdown) and enjoyed meeting some crazy MoFos at CheeseCake II.    A buzzed Subnet had to help me find my tent as we stumbling around in the dark because it "wandered away".  I thought I had a bit too much of the Beem from K.O.D., & that was why I couldn't find my campsite at Wolfie's place, but turns out the wind had rolled the tent (and contents) across the prairie...  It ended up looked the worse for the wear (broken tentpole) but I still slept very sound that night.

Don't think I'd be too worried about the "Criminal" side of ARFCOM on a deal, but danged if there are not some KRaZEe ones here with us...

Enjoy your time in Ukraine & bring us back some "Fun Toys" when you head back to Texas ...  

BIGGER_HAMMER

@Tboy

Unless I know someone VERY well for a long time, gun is getting shipped to or transferred thru a FFL.  

Why?

Because I don’t trust the ATF

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/us/gun-dealer-gets-prison-for-selling-to-illegal-immigrant-illegal-middle-man-not-charged.amp

Interesting.

"Not trusting the ATF" would be a reason to avoid paperwork and avoid their involvement - at all.  Not create paperwork or involve them when they need not be.

To me, at least.

If I'm remembering correctly, the "dealer" in that article wasn't an FFL (licensed dealer) but a guy who regularly bought and sold guns at gun shows and flea markets around Austin. There was a thread on AR15 when he was arrested. I think he had a history of thumbing his nose at federal gun laws. Didn't work out so well.

Lol.   What a bunch of drama queens here.  Way to represent TX.

Guess you didn't bother to read the thread.

Great Job "Representing Texas" yourself there "tex"...  

BIGGER_HAMMER

I remember that.  Pretty likely that they intentionally set him up or did everything they could to finally catch him.

I remember that guy at the Lamar Saxet gun show. Same tables month after month.

I'm on the complete opposite side of UA, the furthest away from the hot zones and plan to keep it that way.  Sadly, it's much safer here than in the US but I do miss the ability to carry.

Personally, I think that your position on wanting copies of ID and/or BOS goes against your position for firearm freedoms, like Constitutional Carry, which I remember watching you testify in the House.  I could be mistaken but this approach is not helping our freedoms.

I recently sold a car. I explained to the Buyer it came with the Window Sticker, the Owners Manuals & All Parts & Service Documents (which had my name, address, phone number, ect... on it), but that the Sticker & License Plates stayed with me.  I gladly signed all his Paperwork including U-130 for registration & title Plus I gave him a Bill Of Sale.   But he didn't get the plates, because the Plates are in my name.   unfair? Paranoid?  Smart?

(A) Buyer owns the vehicle, so he needs to register it to HIS name - now he's motivated to do so at the earliest opportunity.  & (B) I don't get the blame if he is driving / doing something he shouldn't.  ( And "YES" I learned that "lesson" the hard way several decades back.... ) & (C) Plus I get some prorated refund on the unused portion of the plates - [JG Wentworth] It's MY Money & I want it Now!] [/JG Wentworth]  Why wouldn't I want to get a refund?

No one is "Forcing" Joe or Jane Smith to Register their guns with Biden & the Democrats or any other agency or authorities. I'd certainly be completely AGAINST ANY & every such law or requirement. I'm not the BATFE compiling a giant national Snowden-ish database of everybody with every gun with every purchase or sale they ever made.  That would be "Big Brother" & truly devastating to the 2nd Amendment.  Once an oppressive Government has "the List" of enemy opponents, where they live & what they own, it is just a matter of time until they come for everybody's guns.   When someone says "It can't happen here" - It already DID.  New York City has required ALL guns to be registered with the authorities.  When NYC decided to ban "assault weapons", they went back through their records & if you had Grandpa's WWII Bring Back M-1 carbine or K-43 rifle - you had to show either (A) it was sold out of the area, (B) that a gunsmith had permanently disabled the weapon or (C) You surrendered it to the police.  People who didn't comply by the deadline got knocks on the Door from NYPD.  So to be clear, I am 101% against "MANDATORY" registration of all private sales.

But if I own something, purchased with my cash, I'd like to know where it came from (buying) or where it went (selling).  

I've never demanded ID from anyone I've dealt with here on ARFCOM, because Members have a history over time here so I've never really been worried of "criminals" Selling or Buying from someone with several years here & positive feedback history. But when dealing with total strangers floating around at say a Gun Show or "Arms List" meeting), for me it is inexpensive peace of mind that they know that I know who they are (if they sell me a stolen gun), or if they do something illegal with a gun I've sold to them in good faith as a non-prohibited person.    If I was buying a dog - I'd meet at their place & want a picture of the sellers ID.  If they don't want to show it to me - that is a warning flag.  If I was ever to sell a Dog, I wouldn't feel the least bit bashful about showing mine if asked - I have nothing bad to hide.  

Everyone has their own experiences, and in my years, I've learned that being safer now, usually means not having to be 'sorry' later.

To each their own - That's the American Way.

Enjoy Ukraine & the Pretty Women there.  My next door neighbor is certainly very happy with his blonde bride!

BIGGER_HAMMER

This is how they pass common sense gun laws, I mean who is against keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. Don’t fall for this bullshit and as this thread illustrates plenty of your fellow gun enthusiasts will gladly support back ground checks for private sales.

Washington was also able to pass a mandatory firearms training laws. Who is against gun owners getting proper training?


Washington state gun laws is now a huge mess with so many new gun regs attached to the gun laws that it is impossible to enforce or implement.


Just to answer the statement by the very uninformed fellow above. You cannot require background checks on private sales without a gun registry.

Here is how TxDMV says to do it:

https://www.txdmv.gov/motorists/buying-or-selling-a-vehicle

Can you please share with us WHO in this thread has advocated for "REQUIRED Background Checks on All Private Sales in Texas" or for any "Gun Registry", (be it Texas or Nationally?)  

Welcome to Texas!  We are NOT Washington ...

BIGGER_HAMMER

When I purchased my most recent car, the Dealership was absolutely solid that they pull the license plates & sticker (plate & toll tag) and physically hand them to me.  

Once I had the plates, I could toss them in any trash can or do whatever I wanted - but the Dealership did NOT want the hazard or hassle of a "incident" on a trade in.  

That way 100% no possibility that the vehicle gets driven and the former owner (me) has to hassle clearing up "issues" from red light cameras, toll roads, parking tickets, hit & run or any other "messes" to be "cleared up" AFTER the problem.

Also - Tax office refund on unused proration portion of plates if you turn them in.   $50 back for 10 minutes over lunch was worth it.

Just figured if it was good enough for reasons above at a Ritzy European 'auto buying experience', than it was fine in selling my Chevy to a neighbor kid as his "first car" ...

BIGGER_HAMMER

And the audit code on your drivers license.  Now they can renew the DL, make a change of address, and use it to get other forms of ID.

Just ask if they can lawfully make the purchase from you at that time.  If you have a bad feeling, ask to see a resident DL and/or LTC or cancel the sale.

Also, what do you do when the ATF decides that having multiple bills of sale is proof that you're an unlicensed firearms dealer?

Good point.  Plus, if someone hacks their phone or computer and grabs the image of your DL, now you're really hosed.  The less you put your info out there the better.  Frankly, if you're worried about the person you are selling a firearm to, the last thing you want to do is give them something they could steal your identity with.

Another good point.  That definitely sounds like a ploy they'd try.  Don't give them any more ideas...  those JBTs are already out of control and with a Maoist like Biden in office they're probably itching to step on some throats.

That is how they got John Shipley.

???  "They" must have been VERY Stealthy, since I can't say I recognize the name or of hearing of him being "GOT"...

4-1-1 please.

Another doofus who thought he was just protecting himself with a BOS.

Gun turns up in Mexico. ATF traced it to FBI Agent John Shipley, who had BOS showing he sold it to Deputy Sheriff. The admission of a BOS opened Pandora's box to a full blown investigation into dealing without a license, etc., where his BOS records were used against him to show he was dealing without a license. Think he is out of the FPMITA Prison now.

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/elpaso/press-releases/2010/ep082410.htm

Not just several bills of sale, idiot even had multiple bound books....but wasn't a licensed dealer.

 L oh Freaking L...

It may well be this guy deserved a Darwin & his stay at P.M.I.T.A. Prison ...

What an idiot.  I wonder if they'd have had a case against him if he wasn't stupid enough to incriminate himself like that.

As a former agent he really should have known better in general.

I wonder who he crossed in order to get prosecuted.  Normally guys like him get a free pass.  He must have pissed off the wrong person.

He was not even a target until he told them he had a BOS. Had he just said he sold it at a gun show and could not remember to who, it would have been over right there.

Double dumbass.  Pretty much proves BOS or keeping any records is a bad idea.  Pleading a "Reagan" is probably the right response.