Probably asked 1500 times, but... Texas LLC and NFA - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Probably asked 1500 times, but... Texas LLC and NFA (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 3/12/2006 8:33:53 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Yes, and telling anyone that your 'company is not actually doing business' is a very smart thing to do, indeed!

Really.

Suit yourselves!

Eric The(ConspiracyIsANebulousConcept...UntilYouGetToCourt)Hun

The "company" has been established in anticipation of future asset management...

Posted: 3/12/2006 9:06:02 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Yes, and telling anyone that your 'company is not actually doing business' is a very smart thing to do, indeed!

Really.

Suit yourselves!

Eric The(ConspiracyIsANebulousConcept...UntilYouGetToCourt)Hun

The "company" has been established in anticipation of future asset management...

Now we're talking BUSINESS!

I cannot imagine what those assets might be!

But I would throw some stocks, some precious metals, and some other collectable items into the mix....

Just to be prudent.

Eric The(VeryPrudent)Hun

Posted: 3/12/2006 10:28:09 PM EDT

[#3]

I told the state and federal officials I talked to that my LLC was for aquisition of NFA firearms. Why is that bad?

Posted: 3/13/2006 4:43:59 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
I told the state and federal officials I talked to that my LLC was for aquisition of NFA firearms. Why is that bad?

You "told" the state this? How did you tell them this? The form for articles of organization doesnt let you do that - the "purpose" is already filled out. The purpose is "any and all lawful business for which LLC's may be organiazed."

Posted: 3/13/2006 5:09:07 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
I told the state and federal officials I talked to that my LLC was for aquisition of NFA firearms. Why is that bad?

Why would you even mention this?

Tell us precisely which 'state and federal officals' you talked to, if you don't mind.

I have done literally dozens of these things without having to 'talk' to anyone.

As a matter of fact it would likely take me a few dozen phone calls to find someone to talk to at the ATF, who would even be interested in anything I had to say.

And what State official would you be talking to?

The guy who runs the filing desk for new filings at the Secretary of State?

Trust me, he has little or no interest what you are planning to do with your company, one way or the other.....'Next!'

Eric The(Bumfuzzled)Hun

Posted: 3/13/2006 5:13:24 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
The guy who runs the filing desk for new filings at the Secretary of State?

When they called me back.... it was two younger girls doing the filing. They sounded HOT.

Posted: 3/13/2006 5:20:58 AM EDT

[#7]

§ 371. Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States

If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

If, however, the offense, the commission of which is the object of the conspiracy, is a misdemeanor only, the punishment for such conspiracy shall not exceed the maximum punishment provided for such misdemeanor.

'In any manner or for any purpose'

It's little nuggets of federal criminal laws such as these that keep me on the straight and narrow.

Eric The(Straighter'nJ.EdgarHimself)Hun

Posted: 3/13/2006 5:22:30 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The guy who runs the filing desk for new filings at the Secretary of State?

When they called me back.... it was two younger girls doing the filing. They sounded HOT.

They likely were, but they were both bi-.

One can hope, can't one?

Eric The(ElseWhat'sAHeavenFor)Hun

Posted: 3/13/2006 9:30:46 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
§ 371. Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States

If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

If, however, the offense, the commission of which is the object of the conspiracy, is a misdemeanor only, the punishment for such conspiracy shall not exceed the maximum punishment provided for such misdemeanor.

'In any manner or for any purpose'

It's little nuggets of federal criminal laws such as these that keep me on the straight and narrow.

Eric The(Straighter'nJ.EdgarHimself)Hun

I don't see how following existing law is committing fraud.

I can see forming a S or C corp so that the assets may be more easily transfered to other parties in the future; i.e. I die and want my father to take posession of the NFA items.

Other than that, I'm not seeing a good reason not to form a LLC, which the ATF recognizes. If they chose not to recognize LLC's in the future, then i'll form whatever corp they like. I'll still have my stamps for my existing corp though.

All of this would be moot if the county LEO's would do their damn job.

Posted: 3/13/2006 9:52:49 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

I don't see how following existing law is committing fraud.

Yes, I know.

'Nuff said.

Eric The(Astute)Hun

Posted: 3/13/2006 11:48:18 AM EDT

[#11]

taggity

Posted: 3/13/2006 4:41:57 PM EDT

[#12]

Of those involved in this thread who have formed a single person LLC, how many have received their approved Form back from the ATF?

Posted: 3/13/2006 6:59:02 PM EDT

[#13]

tag

Posted: 3/13/2006 7:17:05 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Of those involved in this thread who have formed a single person LLC, how many have received their approved Form back from the ATF?

Plus 1 here for a single member LLC with an approved NFA F4.

However, of the dozen plus NFA weapons I own almost all all owned by me personally (i.e CLEO sig) and not my LLC. One of these days I will probably transfer my Corp F4 to myself for another $200 per item.

James
Austin, Texas

Posted: 3/13/2006 9:00:44 PM EDT

[#15]

I have completed multiple transfers to single member LLC's over the past 3 years. Other than the paperwork being lost by ATF on a few occasions, no other troubles.

Posted: 3/14/2006 2:26:41 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't see how following existing law is committing fraud.

Yes, I know.

'Nuff said.

Eric The(Astute)Hun

Gee, i'm so obtuse i missed the part where doing something legal will get me in trouble.

Posted: 3/14/2006 6:24:14 AM EDT

[#17]

Tag

Posted: 3/14/2006 6:47:47 AM EDT

[#18]

Try selling marahuana with a federal tax stamp. Try to carry a 1911 without state approval.
Try to start your own church in Waco Texas. Or build a house in Ruby Ridge. How about having two wives?

Are all of you really this dense?..my friend the Mason over there is trying to warn you of the errors of intentionally and knowingly running your mouth in public and taking a route for paperwork that may be a little less trouble and /or money BUT could end you up with feds in your face asking difficult questions. He donesn't want your money..he is a MASON they run the world. He just wants you to shut the frick up and stay out of the hoosegow. His experience in a legitimate Store front Gun dealer has confirmed that NO ONE in the BATF wants us to have or to own weapons. One little wrong date on a form 4473 and they want to see you in front of a judge......

Posted: 3/14/2006 7:36:06 AM EDT

[#19]

Peace, Brother Hound.

'Lend every man thy ear, but few thy tongue' is a great bit of advice that is likely more valuable today than when it was first given by Polonius to his son, Laertes.

Folks, to reiterate, the ATF will approve Form 4s from 'single man' business corporations and from LLCs.

I know this from experience, others have said it here, and no one should doubt it.

In my personal and professional view, LLCs are NOT my choice of business organization for several reasons. Some reasons that may be obvious to all, and some that have occurred to me over the years.

And in my personal and professional view, to even begin to discuss forming either business organization with the express intent of circumventing a federal agency's requirement for approving such regulated transactions, and to state so plainly and openly on an Internet Discussion Board....is nothing but sheer, unvarnished, enormous stupidity.

Or incredible hubris.

Or, most likely, both.

But don't worry.

If things go awry, there will always be an attorney who will rush in to help you set things right.

'Will the Government call its first witness...' US District Judge.

Eric The(BeenThere,DoneThat,GotTheThick-AssedFilesToProveIt)Hun

Posted: 3/14/2006 8:27:23 AM EDT

[#20]

I was just calling people trying to tell them that I did not need to file an EIN (I have 2 people in my LLC) and got transfered to several people on the state level till was told I HAD to get an EIN (I guess because I have more than a single person in the LLC) and each person I talked to along the way or got transfered to I told the same story. I told the people I got the EIN from from the IRS (I assume this is who I was tlaking too I cant remember there were so many people) I was using this specifically to get Class 3 weapons. He said he put my reason in the box as "to comply with state requirements" for the EIN.

Posted: 3/14/2006 8:39:05 AM EDT

[#21]

<sigh> - 1GUNRUNNER

'Lord what fools these mortals be.' - Puck, A Midsummer Night's Dream, Act III, scene ii, by Wm. Shakespeare

You know IF this were a website about marihuana, I would swear that some of y'all are narcs!

Eric The(It'sNotOftenICanHaveTwoQuotesFromShakespeareInASingleThread!)Hun

Posted: 3/14/2006 9:06:27 AM EDT

[#22]

Running in circles..

I'm not trying to circumvent anything. Like i said, if the county LEO would sign off, i wouldn't even pursue this option. However, it is a legal option, and therefore, i'm pursuing it.

Posted: 3/14/2006 9:27:02 AM EDT

[#23]

Knock yourself out, Buddy!

'Forewarned, forearmed; to be prepared is half the victory.' ~ Miguel de Cervantes

Eric The(TwoShakespeareQuotesAndOneFromCervantes!ARecord!)Hun

Posted: 3/14/2006 11:50:56 AM EDT

[#24]

Listen people-

1. If the fucking state wants and EIN- get one. Don't explain- they do not care, they are buerocrats and the box next to EIN needs a check mark in it. Get the damned thing.

2. LLC or Corp- If you want ease of transfer- then Corp. I do not think that you get around paying the transfer tax so easily, but who knows.

Now, I am sure ETH will point out where I have misinterpreted his statments:

think ETH is saying that he likes the corp becasue:

1. it is a well understood form of entity that is based on settled law

2. The law regarding corps has been litigated thoroughly and is not subject to much new interpretation.

3. The ATF laws refer to CORP and not LLC even though they accept an LLC in lieu of a corp at this time.

4. The .gov may decide, in the future, that LLC's are not the same as corporations

5. When you add or subtract somone to an LLC, even though the state doesn't consider this the end of the old LLC and the beginniing of a new one, ETH believes that the ATF will treat this as a taxable event and require the payment of transfer taxes on all NFA weapons held by the LLC.

What did I miss?

Posted: 3/15/2006 1:34:16 PM EDT

[#25]

Wow, what a read. I learned a few things perusing this thread. Thanks guys.

Posted: 3/24/2006 7:46:12 PM EDT

[#26]

You know... FN Manufacturing, LLC seems to not have any troubles with machine guns. I don't see why I would either

Posted: 3/25/2006 12:32:37 AM EDT

[#27]

As I said before, Knock yourself out, buddy!

Eric The(WiseBeyondHisEars)Hun

Posted: 3/25/2006 3:32:08 AM EDT

[#28]

Ok, thanks!

Posted: 3/25/2006 9:55:25 AM EDT

[#29]

While we're at it, got a couple of questions.

1. Where can I get a copy of the infamous 'list of acceptable persons' to ask for Form 1 approval to make an SBR out of the AR15 pistol lower that I now have?

2. If a person on this infamous 'list of acceptable persons' doesn't refuse to sign but simply drops it into the circular filing cabinet, how long does one have to wait from the time that they signed for the registered letter until the ATF will say that they refused to sign it?

At that point, I'll guess I will have to get a

lawyer

to sue for issuance like Steele v. NFA Branch && Westfall v. Miller.

Oh, the joys of living in Plano(aka North Austin), Texas.

wganz
¶

Edited for clarity.

Posted: 3/26/2006 2:10:55 AM EDT

[#30]

This list?

Step 1: You ask the following persons if they would sign; the local chief of police, the local sheriff, the local district (prosecuting) attorney, the chief of the state police, and the state Attorney General. The CLEO can delegate the signing duty, for his convenience. Insist they refuse in writing, if that is what they will do. You may be surprised, one might sign. Assume they all refuse. That list of persons comes from 27 CFR sec. 179.85, which is the regulation that created the law enforcement certification requirement for Form 4's. 27 CFR sec. 179.63 is the companion regulation for Form 1's. It is NOT in any statute passed by Congress. Although not listed, and ATF will NOT designate federal officials as also acceptable (see below) other persons whose certification has been acceptable in the recent past include; local U.S. Attorney's, local federal judges, local U.S. Marshals, and local F.B.I. agents. Other local federal law enforcement agents might also work, like DEA or ATF (imagine accepting their own certification!) or Secret Service. The federal law enforcement agents should probably be in a supervisory capacity, like the head of the field office or similar post.

Ok, where are you local Federal Agent's at?

Posted: 3/26/2006 6:56:29 AM EDT

[#31]

Getting your Class 3 in you own individual name is, without any doubt, the way to go.

The Feds have made this a game.

Now, you simply have to learn the rules of this game.

Eric The(CampaignContributionAnyone?)Hun

Posted: 3/26/2006 9:55:37 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
This list?

Step 1: You ask the following persons if they would sign; the local chief of police, the local sheriff, the local district (prosecuting) attorney, the chief of the state police, and the state Attorney General. The CLEO can delegate the signing duty, for his convenience. Insist they refuse in writing, if that is what they will do. You may be surprised, one might sign. Assume they all refuse. That list of persons comes from 27 CFR sec. 179.85, which is the regulation that created the law enforcement certification requirement for Form 4's. 27 CFR sec. 179.63 is the companion regulation for Form 1's. It is NOT in any statute passed by Congress. Although not listed, and ATF will NOT designate federal officials as also acceptable (see below) other persons whose certification has been acceptable in the recent past include; local U.S. Attorney's, local federal judges, local U.S. Marshals, and local F.B.I. agents. Other local federal law enforcement agents might also work, like DEA or ATF (imagine accepting their own certification!) or Secret Service. The federal law enforcement agents should probably be in a supervisory capacity, like the head of the field office or similar post.

Ok, where are you local Federal Agent's at?

Looks like we're reading off of the same page.
www.fullautofun.homestead.com/page36.html

What I'm looking for is a list of names to get me to the Step 3: part of

and ask that they accept a letter of police clearance, or a police letter saying you have no criminal record/history with them, in lieu of the certification, together with your certification that you are OK, and that the weapon would be legal for you to have where you live.

and three paragraphs down on that page you have:

Correspondence from ATF indicates they will not designate any federal officials as other acceptable persons either.

So, the federal official angle is apparently out. But the list that I've come up with is:


Chief of the Plano Police Department
Gregory W. Rushin
909 14th Street
Plano, TX 75074

Sheriff Terry G. Box
Collin County Government Center
210 S. McDonald Street, 
McKinney, TX 75069

John R. Roach
Collin County District Attorney
Collin County Government Center
210 S. McDonald St.
McKinney, TX 75069

Administration Chief
Burton Christian
Texas Department of Public Safety
P O Box 4087
Austin, Texas  78773-0001 

Attorney General Greg Abbott 
Office of the Attorney General
PO Box 12548
Austin, TX 78711-2548


http://www.co.collin.tx.us/court_services.jsp

Judge Donald J. Stevenson
Chief Municipal Judge
P. O. Box 860828
Plano, TX 75086-0828

Elected Judges:
Corinne Mason
Jerry Lewis
John Barry
Ray Wheless
Gregory Brewer
Greg Willis
Weldon Copeland
Collin County Court at Law
University Drive Courts Facility
1800 N. Graves St.
McKinney, TX 75069

Constable, Precinct 1
Collin County Government Center
200 S. McDonald St.
Annex A, Suite 220
McKinney, TX 75069

Honorable A. Joe Fish, Chief Judge
United States District Clerk
1100 Commerce, Room 1452
Dallas, TX 75242

United States Attorney
Richard B. Roper
1100 Commerce Street, Suite 300, 
Earle Cabell Federal Building 
Dallas, Texas 75242-1699
 
Gary G. Olenkiewicz
Special Agent in Charge of the Dallas Drug Enforcement Administration
10160 Technology Blvd East
Dallas, Texas 75220

U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Dallas Field Division
1114 Commerce Street
Room 303
Dallas, TX 75242

United States Marshal Randy P. Ely
Dallas - District Headquarters
Earl Cabell Federal Building
1100 Commerce Street, Room 1657
Dallas, TX 75242

1. Does anyone know that this is a complete list of names and/or positions for Form 1 submissions?

2. What if one of these people don't refuse but simply trashes it without responding. Is there a time period that one could take the position that they refused to sign it? Could that be 90 days? Or the tack that I like is that you send them a followup letter that if they don't respond that you're going to file for 'tacit admission' that it was approved.

{ETH's ears perk up on that one.}

The end point is to get to Step 3 some time this decade.

wganz
¶

Posted: 3/27/2006 8:40:38 AM EDT

[#33]

'Tacit admission' just sounds so lawyerly.

At the present, yours truly is an appointed Federal attorney.

Yep, working for the Feds, I am.

Nothing to do with guns, I'm afraid....just Katrina, Rita, and Old Wilma.

Those gals.

Eric The(Hurricane)Hun

Posted: 3/27/2006 11:00:46 AM EDT

[#34]

So, ETH.

At what point do *Campaign Contributions* go over the line and become *Bribes*?

I haven’t even taken possession of my 1st suppressor yet and am ready for a 2nd. I may try the *contribuiton* route.

Send in a manila envelope with a check and my paperwork. Whacha think?

Posted: 4/9/2006 6:11:36 PM EDT

[#35]

Tag

Posted: 4/10/2006 12:48:01 PM EDT

[#36]

Eric(BigOnHimself)Hun?

Posted: 4/10/2006 1:06:32 PM EDT

[#37]

Eric(muchsmallerthanheusedtobe)theHun

hospital will dio that don't ya know!!!

Posted: 4/10/2006 7:22:00 PM EDT

[#38]

lol

Posted: 4/11/2006 6:38:29 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
Eric(BigOnHimself)Hun?

Do I know you?

Or, more to the point, do you know me?

Eric The(Jes'Checking)HUn

Posted: 4/11/2006 12:32:29 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Eric(BigOnHimself)Hun?

Do I know you?

Or, more to the point, do you know me?

Eric The(Jes'Checking)HUn

Directly to the point, I'm glad I don't.

edit: Explain to me like I'm a 6 year old how a so called FEDERAL ATTORNEY has the time to post over 500 times a month on a gun website. Do you have your laptop with you in the court room? Jes'Checking

Posted: 4/12/2006 10:50:10 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Eric(BigOnHimself)Hun?

Do I know you?

Or, more to the point, do you know me?

Eric The(Jes'Checking)HUn

Directly to the point, I'm glad I don't.

Well, that said, I can assure you that the feeling is mutual.

edit: Explain to me like I'm a 6 year old how a so called FEDERAL ATTORNEY has the time to post over 500 times a month on a gun website. Do you have your laptop with you in the court room?

Sorry, but I don't discuss adult subjects with six year olds.

And besides, it's none of your business, now, is it?

Gotta anything to add, sonny boy?

Eric The(Now,RunAlongAndRememberToRemindYourMotherIt'sTimeForYourNap)Hun

Posted: 4/12/2006 11:05:06 AM EDT

[#42]

tag

Posted: 4/12/2006 3:16:17 PM EDT

[#43]

The big question is, what poor schmuck is getting billed for having two attorneys present in one thread?

Posted: 4/12/2006 3:46:48 PM EDT

[#44]

At the present, yours truly is an appointed Federal attorney.

Yep, working for the Feds, I am.

Nothing to do with guns, I'm afraid....just Katrina, Rita, and Old Wilma.

Those gals.

Eric The(Hurricane)Hun

Eric(TellsBigWhoppers)Hun?

Mr. Prosecutor, it's a simple question. APPOINTED FEDERAL ATTORNEY? Not Likely!! Dishonesty has a way of catching up with a person.

Posted: 4/12/2006 3:59:12 PM EDT

[#45]

I guess prairie rat has nothing constructive to add to the discussion besides trying to start a flame war.

I've read the whole discussion, and have found it quite interesting. Please don't muck this thread up any further than you've already done.

On another note:
I think it's interesting that although it may be easy to get the LLC, as FALARAK mentioned at the beginning of this thread, apparently there are some other issues to consider before doing so. Informative.

M.L.

Posted: 4/12/2006 4:25:41 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
I guess prairie rat has nothing constructive to add to the discussion besides trying to start a flame war.

I've read the whole discussion, and have found it quite interesting. Please don't muck this thread up any further than you've already done.

On another note:
I think it's interesting that although it may be easy to get the LLC, as FALARAK mentioned at the beginning of this thread, apparently there are some other issues to consider before doing so. Informative.

M.L.

My apology logem, I will concede.

Posted: 4/12/2006 8:14:21 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
Eric(TellsBigWhoppers)Hun?

Mr. Prosecutor, it's a simple question. APPOINTED FEDERAL ATTORNEY? Not Likely!! Dishonesty has a way of catching up with a person.

Those are big fucking words... accusing a man to not be whom he says he is... for someone who doesnt know what he is talking about.

What's your major malfunction, PRAIRIERAT?

I'll vouch for ETH. I know the man well. He is what he says he is. Who are you to say he isnt?

I'm not sure what your personal beef is..... but you are about to insert your foot in your mouth..... or get a boot in your ass..... whichever comes first.

Posted: 4/12/2006 8:36:47 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Eric(TellsBigWhoppers)Hun?

Mr. Prosecutor, it's a simple question. APPOINTED FEDERAL ATTORNEY? Not Likely!! Dishonesty has a way of catching up with a person.

Those are big fucking words... accusing a man to not be whom he says he is... for someone who doesnt know what he is talking about.

What's your major malfunction, PRAIRIERAT?

I'll vouch for ETH. I know the man well. He is what he says he is. Who are you to say he isnt?

I'm not sure what your personal beef is..... but you are about to insert your foot in your mouth..... or get a boot in your ass..... whichever comes first.

I believe you FALARAK. Looks like I'm the one with the black eye.

I can admit it when I'm wrong. Apologies to ETH.

Posted: 4/12/2006 8:43:30 PM EDT

[#49]

Fair enough. I get defensive when someone treads on my friends, without due cause.

Posted: 4/12/2006 9:41:44 PM EDT

[#50]

Well hell I will through myself into the fire.. Reading through this post the whole time I would agree with Prairierat, while I think it was a great thread with lots of good info I feel every time ETH spoke up he came off as a pompous ass, now not knowing him, he might not be but he comes off that way. And I still question the Federally appointed attorney not ever giving a straight answer just a runaround unless you want to pay him?? Are you running your own practice or are you getting a Federal paycheck??? If your getting a Federal paycheck then not sure how that looks for you asking for money for advice,, and (as you so nicely pointed out earlier) posting it on a message board for the world to read!

Just my 2 cents. Sorry if you feel as I am picking on ETH Im just telling you how I think he comes off on his posts.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Probably asked 1500 times, but... Texas LLC and NFA (Page 2 of 3)

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