Quoted: Muad_Dib im looking in to that for you and am going to try it my self first..might take a few days but i will get back to you

Cool.  Let me know what you discover.

Quoted: Anthony and Adrian, by all means, get your wives involved here at Arfcom (if they're willing). I know my wife would appreciate the company!

I've been trying that for years.  Actually, now that she's finished with her PhD thesis she might have a few spare minutes during the day to read arfcom on her own instead of reading over my shoulder every night.





As for the notion of this letter coming from SAFER, I have no problems with that whatsoever.  Adrian and I will need to discuss this with the third officer of the club before we can definitely say YES, but I don't think he'll have any problems with it.  I think we might be more likely to get a response from everyone if the letter comes from a student group at UW rather than a single individual.

Quoted: slightly off topic.....Open carry in a vehicle falls under DNR jurisdiction does it not? No loaded firearms uncased (read the holster clause) in a motorized vehicle. You would have to unholster, unload, and zip it into a case PRIOR to getting in your car. Would that raise eyebrows if someone saw you in a parking lot/garage pulling it out? Just playing Devil's advocate. BTW...I'll chip in for postage as well. Where do I send  it?

The real kicker is that they don't as far as I can see is state what "unload" is. It used to just mean that there was no round in the chamber, you could have the magazine in the gun, but no round in hte chamber and it was considered unloaded. But I didn't see that in the regs book this year. I just read through the regs again, but didn;t se anything I'll go through again later and see if I can find it.

Quoted: Quoted: Muad_Dib im looking in to that for you and am going to try it my self first..might take a few days but i will get back to you Cool.  Let me know what you discover. Quoted: Anthony and Adrian, by all means, get your wives involved here at Arfcom (if they're willing). I know my wife would appreciate the company! I've been trying that for years.  Actually, now that she's finished with her PhD thesis she might have a few spare minutes during the day to read arfcom on her own instead of reading over my shoulder every night. As for the notion of this letter coming from SAFER, I have no problems with that whatsoever.  Adrian and I will need to discuss this with the third officer of the club before we can definitely say YES, but I don't think he'll have any problems with it.  I think we might be more likely to get a response from everyone if the letter comes from a student group at UW rather than a single individual.

That sounds good, I think yer right too it probably would get a higher responce rate comming from a student group than from an individual. I'll still kick in on postage too so just let me know.

If 2 or 3 people are interested in starting a 'business' with(or without)me I have an idea that can pay for legal battles,and maybe even pay a little wages too.

I sent some emails around during PPA asking why not advocate and promote open carry and I usually get a 'debate' open(bad) vs ccw(good)...
I say use open carry as a 'tool' to get CCW.I personally would rather not carrythan open carry in town.

An organization (?WIOpencarry.org?) could be setup to build a legal fund(raise money thru memberships,sponsors,events~~~open carrry rallys~~~)and legal protection(members can have 24/7 access to a litigater hired by the org.in case of arrest),solicit help from other states,and organize.It doesn't take a whole lot of capitol investment,just expertise and organization.

There is more than one way to skin a horse.It makes me feel a little dirty talking about it but litigation is a "necessary evil".
I say drop the strategy of litigating the statutes and litigate the arresting officers in the "peoples court" ala civil rights lawsuit.We 'all' took the oath sometime,to swear to uphold the Constitution of the United States,Stae and local statutes....There is an interesting thread here at ARFcom on the very subject of the 'oath'.
I don't hang with lawyers and I don't have much expertise in civil rights law but it seems pretty basic to me.Maybe not,please fill me in.

I don't know how LE would react to this,my intention is to NOT fuck up thier day but put some balance back into the system.Given a choice LE could(IMO should!) "stand behind" the PPA.I would rather have registered CCW than open carry if I were LE.
Given a fight against open carry civil rights litigation would restore some of the balance lost with the demise of fully informed juries.

I am all for helping on this.Even without the litigation strategy it would be a good write off for legal opinions,phone,postage,mileage,bullets....

BulletcatchR

OK, a little slow on the bandwagon here. Sorry.

I'm Christopher - the third officer of SAFER.

I think the letter coming from the UW-Madison GunClub is an excellent idea. Part of our charter is that we are a politically active organization, and I think it sends a potent message all by itself that there is a last bastion of pro-gun citizens in the People's Republic of Madison.

Adrian: Excellent letter! I think it is a little long as well. I liked the idea of having 'fill-in-the-blank' check boxes, or some other way for us to solicit a response in the least inposing way. I agree - if they have to draft up their own letter, I suspect our response rate will be low. If we have enough support for postage, SASE would increase our response rate even more.

But something I would try to eliminate from the letter is your statement that this is all academic, because it implies that in the future it will not be. Your letter makes it sound like you're doing research before we hear up for some activism (which, in fact, is exactly what this is).

If you send this kind of transparent message to officials who truly ARE anti-gun/anti-CCW, I think the wise ones won't respond, as they would be providing you with the ammunition you need to win this fight (do they know that they're in the wrong to begin with!??!??! I've been wondering how and why these officials can believe what they do when their stances are so obviously based on irrational emotion and other false beliefs! But that's a different discussion).

~Christopher

P.S. Adrian - I need a good picture of you to put on the website. I'll dig around for something that will work. I also need a self-descriptive statement to post instead of Holly.

If 2 or 3 people are interested in starting a 'business' with(or without)me I have an idea that can pay for legal battles,and maybe even pay a little wages too. I sent some emails around during PPA asking why not advocate and promote open carry and I usually get a 'debate' open(bad) vs ccw(good)... I say use open carry as a 'tool' to get CCW.I personally would rather not carrythan open carry in town. An organization (?WIOpencarry.org?) could be setup to build a legal fund(raise money thru memberships,sponsors,events~~~open carrry rallys~~~)and legal protection(members can have 24/7 access to a litigater hired by the org.in case of arrest),solicit help from other states,and organize.It doesn't take a whole lot of capitol investment,just expertise and organization. There is more than one way to skin a horse.It makes me feel a little dirty talking about it but litigation is a "necessary evil". I say drop the strategy of litigating the statutes and litigate the arresting officers in the "peoples court" ala civil rights lawsuit.We 'all' took the oath sometime,to swear to uphold the Constitution of the United States,Stae and local statutes....There is an interesting thread here at ARFcom on the very subject of the 'oath'. I don't hang with lawyers and I don't have much expertise in civil rights law but it seems pretty basic to me.Maybe not,please fill me in. I don't know how LE would react to this,my intention is to NOT fuck up thier day but put some balance back into the system.Given a choice LE could(IMO should!) "stand behind" the PPA.I would rather have registered CCW than open carry if I were LE. Given a fight against open carry civil rights litigation would restore some of the balance lost with the demise of fully informed juries. I am all for helping on this.Even without the litigation strategy it would be a good write off for legal opinions,phone,postage,mileage,bullets.... BulletcatchR

In my opinion, open carry is a tool, nothing else. It's not tactically sound, especially in the city.

I really like your ideas.

I like the idea of starting an organization - then again, we have that with the student gun club. As a student club, we could probably get more answers from people who may be anti-gun than another org that looks to everyone else like a bunch of gun nuts.

We'd still have to solicit money, and get legal representation, Anthony - can this be done? If we got some shit going, it would be REALLY great for the club, but it would be a lot of work.

Can we come to a concensus - should we use SAFER or start a new organization?

I'll try to revise that letter, maybe make it more survey like.

Dear Mr. So and So:

My name is Adrian Andrijasevic, I am a student at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, and I am Secretary of the Student Alliance for Firearm Education and Resopnsibility (SAFER).

I am conducting a state-wide survey of District Attorney’s, County Sheriff’s, Police Chief’s and various state officials, to learn their policies regarding civilians carrying firearms for defensive purposes.

This is what I would like to know. If your department or office came across a citizen who was going about his or her daily business, with a securely holstered pistol, in plain sight, what action would be taken? Let us assume that this person was not breaking any laws, it was perfectly legal for him or her to own firearms, they were not attempting to create any disturbance, or intimidate anyone – in fact, they were going about their business like the weapon wasn’t even there. Their only reason for carrying the gun was for self-defense, and again, they were not violating any state, local or federal laws.

If such a scenario occurred, how would your department/office respond, and specifically, would they be arrested/charged, or likely be arrested/charged for disorderly conduct?

I have been told by officials in Madison that such an action would with no uncertainty result in a DC arrest/charge. I would like to know if this is a stance taken statewide, or if this is simply a “Madison thing.”

Continuing on, the State Constitution as amended in 1998, states in Article I, §25 “The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose.”

Wis. Statute 941.23 prohibits the carrying of concealed weapons with a few exceptions: “Any person except a peace officer who goes armed with a concealed and dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.”

So, if one wishes to carry a firearm for self-defense in the State of Wisconsin, they must carry the weapon in plain sight (which is not only tactically unsound, but could run the risk of disturbing members of the public who are unaware of their intentions). However, threat of a DC arrest prevents this as well, making it all but impossible to exercise their constitutional right to bear arms for self-defense.

Finally, case law established during State v. Hamdan (2003) allows a concealed weapons charge to be challenged on constitutional grounds if the defendant can prove the weapon was concealed because it was the only reasonable means under the circumstances to exercise his or her right to bear arms. Lastly, if your department or office would indeed arrest or charge someone for DC for openly carrying a firearm (again, with no 'other' legal infractions), would that same, otherwise law abiding person, who decided to carry their firearm in a concealed fashion because of the threat of a DC charge, be arrested?

In essence – would your department or office arrest or charge someone for carrying a firearm for the purpose of self-defense (not hunting, not for sport, etc), whether openly or concealed? Is it possible to carry a firearm for self-defense in your jurisdiction in any manner without facing arrest on some sort of charge (whether CCW or DC or something else)?

I really appreciate you taking the time to answer these questions for me, please feel free to contact me by phone or email if you have any further questions. I look forward to hearing from you.


Sincerely,


Adrian Andrijasevic
Secretary
UW- Student Alliance for
Firearm Education & Responsibility
###-###-####
@@@@@wisc.edu

Adrian,
I think what you are doing with the students is GREAT.It reminds me of the "good old days",when High School had a rimfire range in the basement and a marksmanship club.


If at some point we want to do 'battle' thru litigation and public rallys my base instinct is to start a new organization,for the main reason of protecting yours from a possible financial liability.
If we are looking at recuiting/soliciting sponsors for legal defense funds I think it HAS to be seperate,for the above reason.

Not to slam on students but I am looking at this from the perspective of what a donor would be willing to give BIG bucks to.I don't know enough about the system,but I would suspect there would be a non profit angle to this.

When I said "starting a business" I meant more like making it our business to get this open carry legitimized and then move forward to PPA,not a money making scheme.I think the majority of those concerned with PPA support wiconcealedcarry and packing.org with contributions.And I think they have thier opinions about open carry,right or not.
We are looking at a new constituency,I don't think people will be beating the net down to get here.By targeting support from larger donors and organizations we could boost the financial clout of the org.so members can have a larger legal clout.

I'm still of mixed opinion about sending letters off.Definitely should have a plan working on the next steps.A public relations network to disseminate the information gained by any replies.As in posting editorials in local papers,getting on radio stations,etc.,just letting people know open carry exists.
Also,if LE picks up that all these letters are being mailed statewide,the lowdown will be to not answer.Maybe I'm jaded but this is the way I see it.If a Sherriff answers that there would be no arrest,then later arrests someone having gone 'on the record' he wouldn't,that would put him in a tight spot.If they answer they would arrest it puts them in a different boat.If anything I think you would get doublespeak and opinions and no straight answers as replies.


Keep up the good work!

BulletcatchR

Quoted: If anything I think you would get doublespeak and opinions and no straight answers as replies.

Which is why I suggested the "check off box" type survey...

1. It would be quicker to complete.
2. More likely to respond
3. Less "weasel room" for responses.

JMHO.  I'd love to be more involved, but at the moment Carrie and I are running hard at work (it's the "busy season" for tradeshows), and we're also spearheading an ad campaign to Stop the FTAA for a December rollout.  It makes for some strange bedfellows, but the cause is worthy.  Unfortunately I don't think we'd be able to spend time on an "open carry movement" until Jan 2005.

Quoted: Adrian, I think what you are doing with the students is GREAT.It reminds me of the "good old days",when High School had a rimfire range in the basement and a marksmanship club. If at some point we want to do 'battle' thru litigation and public rallys my base instinct is to start a new organization,for the main reason of protecting yours from a possible financial liability. If we are looking at recuiting/soliciting sponsors for legal defense funds I think it HAS to be seperate,for the above reason. Not to slam on students but I am looking at this from the perspective of what a donor would be willing to give BIG bucks to.I don't know enough about the system,but I would suspect there would be a non profit angle to this. When I said "starting a business" I meant more like making it our business to get this open carry legitimized and then move forward to PPA,not a money making scheme.I think the majority of those concerned with PPA support wiconcealedcarry and packing.org with contributions.And I think they have thier opinions about open carry,right or not. We are looking at a new constituency,I don't think people will be beating the net down to get here.By targeting support from larger donors and organizations we could boost the financial clout of the org.so members can have a larger legal clout. I'm still of mixed opinion about sending letters off.Definitely should have a plan working on the next steps.A public relations network to disseminate the information gained by any replies.As in posting editorials in local papers,getting on radio stations,etc.,just letting people know open carry exists. Also,if LE picks up that all these letters are being mailed statewide,the lowdown will be to not answer.Maybe I'm jaded but this is the way I see it.If a Sherriff answers that there would be no arrest,then later arrests someone having gone 'on the record' he wouldn't,that would put him in a tight spot.If they answer they would arrest it puts them in a different boat.If anything I think you would get doublespeak and opinions and no straight answers as replies. Keep up the good work! BulletcatchR

BC it's not so m,uch about legitimising open carry as it is pointing out that open carry is NOT an option of carry because it would put a law abiding gun owner in a position where they will run problems with the law for exercising thier constitutional right.

It's about exactly this

Finally, case law established during State v. Hamdan (2003) allows a concealed weapons charge to be challenged on constitutional grounds if the defendant can prove the weapon was concealed because it was the only reasonable means under the circumstances to exercise his or her right to bear arms.

Right now you have two choices, open carry and get into trouble with the law, or CCW and hope no one spots yer CCW so you don't get into trouble, eventhough it is illegal to do so. What writing this letter and getting the responces does is provide "proof" that CCW would be the only reasonable means to carry to defend ones self and keep you from running into trouble for doing something that is legal(open carry)

Basicly what Adrian has right now in those two letters is a defense against a CCW charge in dane county, because he has been told that open carry, while legal would result in arrest and possible charges and prosecution. That means in Dane county right now, the only reasonable way to carry is to CCW eventhough it is illegal under state law.

Check box type survey-

FMD makes a good point, less weasel room. At the same time, if they dont see any way out, they may not respond at all.

Maybe we can include both. My letter, then a seperate sheet with a few questions and check boxes

Yes No - Would your department/office arrest/porescute somone for carrying a holstered pistol in plain sight, for disorderly conduct or similar charge, solely on the fact that he or she was carrying a firearm in public, in plain sight (no 'other' crimes committed)

Yes No - If you answered yes to the above, would your deparment/office arrest/prosecute someone for CCW if they were concealing a holstered pistol solely for self-defensive purposes, and were only doing so because they understood exercising their right to bear arms for self defense by carrying a weapon in plain view would result in a DC (or similar) arrest/charge?

Yes No - Would your office arrest someone for carrying a holstered firearm for self defense, whether it was in plain sight or not (and no crimes, or no 'other' crimes had been committed - nor was the display intended to be intimidating or threatening)

Anything else I should ask?

Adrian it looks good to me. I think it will work just fine this way. it gets us the simple yes/no answer for the questions, and it leaves little wiggle room.

Here is the list of all the DA offices in the state as well as the DA's name. I did find a conflict between the two lists I used a sources though and that conflict is in Door county the state ethics board web site lists Korb, Joan as the DA in door county, I don;t know which is correct. If you guys know your DA please check the list an let me know if I have any wrong names on this list.

I'll work on the sherrifs and police chiefs list  later.


The AG's contact info
Attorney General Peg Lautenschlager
Wisconsin Department of Justice
P.O. Box 7857
Madison, WI 53707-7857
Phone # 608-266-1221



District Attorney Office Address List  
 
ADAMS-Thibodeau, Mark
Adams Co. Courthouse
402 W. Main St., Rm. C150
P.O. Box 258
Friendship, WI 53934-0258
(608) 339-4217

ASHLAND-Duffy, Sean
Ashland Co. Courthouse
201 W. Main St., Rm 102
Ashland, WI 54806-1652
(715) 682-7019

BARRON-Holmstrom, Angela
Barron Co. Courthouse
330 E. LaSalle Ave., Rm. 206
Barron, WI 54812-1583
(715) 537-6220

BAYFIELD-Haukaas, Craig
Bayfield Co. Courthouse
017 E. 5th St.
P.O. Box 487
Washburn, WI 54891-0487
(715) 373-6111

BROWN-Zakowski, John
Law Enforcement Center
300 E. Walnut St.
P.O. Box 23600
Green Bay, WI 54305-3600
(920) 448-4190

BUFFALO-Duvall, James
317 S. 2nd St.
P.O. Box 337
Alma, WI 54610-0337
(608) 685-6236

BURNETT-Kutz, Kenneth
Burnett Co. Government Center
7410 County Road K, #113Siren, WI 54872-9043
(715) 349-2167

CALUMET-Kratz, Kenneth
Calumet Co. Courthouse
206 Court St.
Chilton, WI 53014-1127
(920) 849-1438

CHIPPEWA-Anderson, Rachel
Chippewa Co. Courthouse
711 N. Bridge St.
Chippewa Falls, WI 54729-1876
(715) 726-7740

CLARK-Zwieg, Darwin
Clark Co. Courthouse
517 Court St., Rm. 404
Neillsville, WI 54456-1903
(715) 743-5167

COLUMBIA-Kohlwey, Jane
Columbia Co. Administration Building
400 DeWitt St.
P.O. Box 638
Portage, WI 53901-0638
(608) 742-9650

CRAWFORD-Baxter, Timothy
Crawford Co. Courthouse
220 N. Beaumont Rd.
Prairie du Chien, WI 53821-1405
(608) 326-4802

DANE-Blanchard, Brian
City-County Building
210 Martin Luther King, Jr. Blvd., Rm. 523
Madison, WI 53709-0001
(608) 266-4211

DODGE-Bauer, Steve
Dodge Co. Legal Services Building
105 N. Main St.
Juneau, WI 53039-1056
(920) 386-3610

DOOR-Funnell, Timothy
Door Co. Courthouse
421 Nebraska St.
P.O. Box 670
Sturgeon Bay, WI 54235-0670
(920) 746-2284

DOUGLAS-Blank, Daniel
Douglas Co. Courthouse
1313 Belknap St., Rm. 202
Superior, WI 54880-2769
(715) 395-1218

DUNN-Peterson, James
615 Parkway Drive, Suite 1700
Menomonie, WI 54751
(715) 232-1687

EAU CLAIRE-White, G. Richard
Eau Claire Co. Courthouse
721 Oxford Ave., Rm. 272
Eau Claire, WI 54703
(715) 839-4828

FLORENCE-Drexler, Douglas
Florence Co. Courthouse
501 Lake Ave.
P.O. Box 410
Florence WI 54121-0410
(715) 528-3362

FOND DU LAC-Storm, Thomas
City-County Government Center
160 S. Macy St.
Fond du Lac, WI 54935
(920) 929-3048

FOREST-Stenz, Leon
Forest Co. Courthouse
200 E. Madison
Crandon, WI 54520-1414
(715) 478-3511

GRANT-Everix,Emil
Grant Co. Courthouse
130 W. Maple St.
Lancaster, WI 53813-1625
(608) 723-4237

GREEN-Luhman, Gary
Green Co. Courthouse
1016 16th Ave.
Monroe, WI 53566
(608) 328-9424

GREEN LAKE-Camp, James
Green Lake Co. Courthouse
492 Hill St.
Green Lake, WI 54941-3188
(920) 294-4046

IOWA-Peterson, Erik
Iowa Co. Courthouse
222 N. Iowa St.
Dodgeville, WI 53533-1595
(608) 935-0393

IRON-Lipske, Martin
Iron Co. Courthouse
300 Taconite St.
Hurley, WI 54534
(715) 561-5671

JACKSON-Becker, Anna
Jackson Co. Courthouse
307 Main St.
Black River Falls, WI 54615-1756
(715) 284-0242

JEFFERSON-Wambach, David
Jefferson Co. Courthouse
320 S. Main St., Rm. 225
Jefferson, WI 53549-1799
(920) 674-7220

JUNEAU-Schuh, Dennis
Juneau Co. Courthouse
220 E. State St.
Mauston, WI 53948-0105
(608) 847-9314

KENOSHA-Jambois, Robert
Kenosha Co. Courthouse
912 56th St., Rm. 312
Kenosha, WI 53140-3747
(262) 653-2400

KEWAUNEE-Naze, Andrew
Kewaunee Co. Courthouse
613 Dodge St.
Kewaunee, WI 54216-1398
(920) 388-7194

LA CROSSE-Horne, Scott
La Crosse Co. Courthouse & Law Enforcement Center
Rm 1100, 333 Vine St.
La Crosse, WI 54601-3200
(608) 785-9604

LAFAYETTE-Doherty, Charlotte
Lafayette Co. Courthouse
626 Main St.
P.O. Box 203
Darlington, WI 53530-0203
(608) 776-4842

LANGLADE-Uttke, Ralph
Langlade Co. Courthouse
800 Clermont St.
Antigo, WI 54409
(715) 627-6224

LINCOLN-Mutter, Shawn
Lincoln Co. Courthouse
1110 E. Main St.
Merrill, WI 54452-2578
(715) 536-0339

MANITOWOC-Rohrer, Mark
Manitowoc Co. Courthouse
1010 S. 8th St.
Manitowoc, WI 54220-5398
(920) 683-4070

MARATHON-Falstad, Jill
Marathon Co. Courthouse
500 Forest St., Rm. 103
Wausau, WI 54403-5568
(715) 261-1111

MARINETTE-Klumb, Joseph
Marinette Co. Courthouse
1926 Hall Ave.
Marinette, WI 54143
(715) 732-7490

MARQUETTE-Dufour,Richard
Marquette Co. Courthouse
77 W. Park St., P.O. Box 0396
Montello, WI 53949-0396
(608) 297-9136 x222

MILWAUKEE-McCann, E. Michael
Safety Building
812 W. State St., Rm. 405
Milwaukee, WI 53233-1485
(414) 278-4646

MONROE-Cary, Dan
Monroe Co. Courthouse
112 S. Court St., Rm. 201
Sparta, WI 54656-1765
(608) 269-8780

OCONTO-Conley, Jay
Oconto Co. Courthouse
301 Washington St.
Oconto, WI 54153-1699
(920) 834-6865

ONEIDA-O'Melia, Patrick
Oneida Co. Courthouse
P.O. Box 400
Rhinelander, WI 54501-0400
(715) 369-6133

OUTAGAMIE-Schneider, Carrie
Outagamie Co. Justice Center
320 S. Walnut St.
Appleton, WI 54911-5990
(920) 832-5024

OZAUKEE-Williams, Sandy
Ozaukee Co. Courthouse
1201 S. Spring St., P.O. Box 994
Port Washington, WI 53074-0994
(262) 238-8380

PEPIN-Seifert, Jon
308 3rd Ave West
P.O. Box 206
Durand, WI 54736-0206
(715) 672-8938

PIERCE-O'Boyle, John M.
Pierce Co. Courthouse
414 W. Main St.
P.O. Box 808
Ellsworth, WI 54011-0808
(715) 273-3531

POLK-Smith, Karen
Polk Co. Courthouse
100 Polk County Plaza Ste. 260
Balsam Lake, WI 54810
(715) 485-9231

PORTAGE-Eagon, Thomas
City-County Building
1516 Church St.
Stevens Point, WI 54481-3598
(715) 346-1300

PRICE-Fuhr, Mark
Price Co. Courthouse
126 Cherry St.
Phillips, WI 54555-1285
(715) 339-3095

RACINE-Flancher, Robert
Racine Co. Courthouse
730 Wisconsin Ave.
Racine, WI 53403-1274
(262) 636-3172

RICHLAND-Sharp, Andrew
Richland Co. Courthouse
181 W. Seminary St.
Richland Center, WI 53581-2356
(608) 647-3493

ROCK-O'Leary, David
Rock Co. Courthouse
51 S. Main St.
Janesville, WI 53545
(608) 757-5615

RUSK-Pakes, Kathleen
Rusk Co. Courthouse
311 Miner Ave. East
Ladysmith, WI 54848-1862
(715) 532-2159

SAINT CROIX-Johnson, Eric
St. Croix Co. Government Center
1101 Carmichael Rd.
Hudson, WI 54016-7710
(715) 386-4658

SAUK-Barrett, Patricia
Sauk Co. Courthouse
515 Oak St.
Baraboo, WI 53913-2496
(608) 355-3280

SAWYER-Van Roy, Thomas
Sawyer Co. Courthouse
406 Main St.
P.O. Box 446
Hayward, WI 54843-0446
(715) 634-4097

SHAWANO/Menominee-Bruno, Gary
Shawano Co. Courthouse
311 N. Main St.
Shawano, WI, 54166-2198
(715) 526-2166

SHEBOYGAN-DeCecco, Joe
Sheboygan Co. Courthouse
615 N. 6th St.
Sheboygan, WI 53081-4692
(920) 459-3040

TAYLOR-Kelz, Karl
Taylor Co. Courthouse
224 S. 2nd St.
Medford, WI 54451-1899
(715) 748-1450

TREMPEALEAU-Gierok, Peter
Trempealeau Co. Courthouse
36245 Main St.
P.O. Box 67
Whitehall, WI 54773-0067
(715) 538-2311

VERNON-Gaskell, Timothy
120 W. Court St.
P.O. Box 468
Viroqua, WI 54665-0468
(608) 637-5357

VILAS-Moustakis, Albert
Vilas Co. Courthouse
330 Court St.
P.O. Box 369
Eagle River, WI 54521-0369
(715) 479-3614

WALWORTH-Koss, Phillip
Walworth Co. Courthouse
P.O. Box 1001
Elkhorn, WI 53121-1001
(262) 741-4320

WASHBURN-Bitney, J. Michael
Washburn Co. Courthouse
110 W. 4th Ave.
P.O. Box 344
Shell Lake, WI 54871-0344
(715) 468-2334

WASHINGTON-Martens, Todd
Washington Co. Courthouse
432 E. Washington St.
P.O. Box 1986
West Bend, WI 53095-7986
(262) 335-4311

WAUKESHA-Bucher, Paul
Waukesha Co. Courthouse
Rm. G-72, 515 W. Moreland Blvd.
Waukesha, WI 53188-2486
(262) 548-7076

WAUPACA-Snider, John
Waupaca Co. Courthouse
811 Harding St., Rm. 3022
Waupaca, WI 54981-2087
(715) 258-6444

WAUSHARA-Dutcher, Guy
Waushara Co. Courthouse
209 S. St. Marie St.
P.O. Box 490
Wautoma, WI 54982-0490
(920) 787-0407

WINNEBAGO-Lennon, William
420 Jackson St.
P.O. Box 2808
Oshkosh, WI 54903-2808
(920) 236-4977

WOOD-Wolf, Todd
Wood Co. Courthouse
400 Market St.
P.O. Box 809
Wisconsin Rapids, WI 54495-8095 (715) 421-8515

Ok here is the State Patrol contact info

Wisconsin State Patrol Division Headquarters
Superintendent Robert B. Young
Colonel Benjamin Mendez Jr.
Hill Farms State Transportation Building
4802 Sheboygan Avenue, Room 551
Madison, WI 53705
(608)266-3212
Fax: (608)267-4495

Sheriff's list- this comes from a list put out monthly. It should be up to date. If anyone notices anything wrong with the list please let me know so I can update with correct info.  Also What city PDs do we want to send letters too so I can add those addresses to the list.

Adams County Sheriff's Office  (ADSO)
Roberta E. Sindelar, Sheriff
301 Adams Street
Friendship, WI 53934
Phone: (608) 339-3304
Fax: (608) 339-4280


Ashland County Sheriff's Office  (ALSO)
John Kovach, Sheriff
220 6th Street East
Ashland, WI 54806
Phone: (715) 685-7640/ (715) 682-7023
Fax: (715) 682-7034

Barron County Sheriff's Office  (BNSO)
Thomas Richie, Sheriff
1420 State Highway 25 North, Room 1200
Barron, WI 54812-3008
Phone: (715) 537-3106
Fax: (715) 537-6615

Bayfield County Sheriff's Office  (BASO)
Robert K. Follis, Sheriff
615 Second Avenue East
P.O. Box 115
Washburn, WI 54891
Phone: (715) 373-6120
Fax: (715) 373-6123

Brown County Sheriff's Office  (BRSO)
Dennis Kocken, Sheriff
300 East Walnut Street
P.O. Box 22003
Green Bay, WI 54305-2003
Phone: (920) 448-4200
Fax: (920) 448-4206

Buffalo County Sheriff's Office  (BUSO)
Harry Schreiner, Sheriff
407 South Second Street
P.O. Box 396
Alma, WI 54610
Phone: (608) 685-4433
Fax: (608) 685-3379

Burnett County Sheriff's Office  (BTSO)
Dean W. Roland, Sheriff
7410 County Road K
P.O. Box 122
Siren, WI 54872
Phone: (715) 349-2121
Fax: (715) 349-2124

Calumet County Sheriff's Office  (CASO)
Jerry A. Pagel, Sheriff
206 Court Street
Chilton, WI 53014
Phone: (920) 849-2335
Fax: (920) 849-1431

Chippewa County Sheriff's Office  (CHSO)
Douglas J. Ellis, Sheriff
32 East Spruce Street
Chippewa Falls, WI 54729-2542
Phone: (715) 726-7701
Fax: (715) 723-6471

Clark County Sheriff's Office  (CLSO)
Louis J. Rosandich, Sheriff
517 Court Street,  Room 308
Neillsville, WI 54456
Phone: (715) 743-3157
Fax: (715) 743-4350

Columbia County Sheriff's Office  (COSO)
Steven R. Rowe, Sheriff
711 East Cook Street
P.O. Box 132
Portage, WI 53901
Phone: (608) 742-4166
Fax: (608) 742-0598

Crawford County Sheriff's Office  (CRSO)
Robert Ostrander, Sheriff
224 North Beaumont Road
Prairie du Chien, WI 53821
Phone: (608) 326-0241
Fax: (608) 326-4782

Dane County Sheriff's Office  (DASO)
Gary H. Hamblin, Sheriff
115 West Doty Street
Madison, WI 53703
Phone: (608) 284-6800
Fax: (608) 284-6163

Dodge County Sheriff's Office  (DOSO)
Todd Nehls, Sheriff
141 North Main Street
Juneau, WI 53039
Phone: (920) 386-3726
Fax: (920) 386-3742

Door County Sheriff's Office  (DRSO)
Terry Vogel, Sheriff
123 South Fifth Avenue
Sturgeon Bay, WI 54235
Phone: (920) 746-2415
Fax: (920) 746-2411

Douglas County Sheriff's Office  (DGSO)
Thomas Dalbec, Sheriff
1316 N. 14th Street, Suite 100
Superior, WI 54880
Phone: (715) 395-1371
Fax: (715) 394-0503

Dunn County Sheriff's Office  (DUSO)
Dennis Smith, Sheriff
615 Parkway Drive
Menomonie, WI 54751
Phone: (715) 232-1348
Fax: (715) 232-3900

Eau Claire County Sheriff's Office  (ECPD)
Ronald D. Cramer, Sheriff
728 Second Avenue
P.O. Box 1650
Eau Claire, WI 54703-5499
Phone: (715) 839-4709
Fax: (715) 839-4854

Florence County Sheriff's Office  (FLSO)
Jeffrey J. Rickaby, Sheriff
501 Lake Avenue
P.O. Box 678
Florence, WI 54121-0410
Phone: (715) 528-3346
Fax: (715) 528-5350

Fond du Lac County Sheriff's Office  (FDSO)
Gary M. Pucker, Sheriff
180 South Macy Street
P.O. Box 1273
Fond du Lac, WI 54936-1273
Phone: (920) 929-3372
Fax: (920) 929-3918

Forest County Sheriff's Office  (FOSO)
Roger W. Wilson, Sheriff
100 South Park Avenue
Crandon, WI 54520-1431
Phone: (715) 478-3331
Fax: (715) 478-3515

Grant County Sheriff's Office  (GTSO)
Keith D. Govier, Sheriff
1000 North Adams Street
P.O. Box 506
Lancaster, WI 53813-0506
Phone: (608) 723-2157
Fax: (608) 723-2377

Green County Sheriff's Office  (GRSO)
Randall L. Roderick, Sheriff
2827 Sixth Street
P.O. Box 473
Monroe, WI 53566
Phone: (608) 328-9400
Fax: (608) 328-1823

Green Lake County Sheriff's Office  (GLSO)
Michael Handel, Sheriff
486 Hill Street
P.O. Box 586
Green Lake, WI 54941
Phone: (920) 294-4129
Fax: (920) 294-3850

Iowa County Sheriff's Office  (IOSO)
Steven R. Michek, Sheriff
1205 North Bequette Street
Dodgeville, WI 53533
Phone: (608) 935-3314
Fax: (608) 935-5377

Iron County Sheriff's Office  (IRSO)
Robert J. Bruneau, Sheriff
300 Taconite Street
Hurley, WI 54534
Phone: (715) 561-3800
Fax: (715) 561-2822

Jackson County Sheriff's Office  (JASO)
Richard A. Young, Sheriff
30 North Third Street
Black River Falls, WI 54615
Phone: (715) 284-9009
Fax: (715) 284-0252
[email protected]

Jefferson County Sheriff's Office  (JESO)
Paul Milbrath, Sheriff
411 South Center Avenue
Jefferson, WI 53549
Phone: (920) 674-7310
Fax: (920) 674-7126

Juneau County Sheriff's Office  (JUSO)
Brent H. Oleson, Sheriff
200 Oak Street, Room 1110
Mauston, WI 53948
Phone: (608) 847-5649
Fax: (608) 847-9401

Kenosha County Sheriff's Office  (KESO)
David Beth, Sheriff
1000 55th Street
Kenosha, WI 53140
Phone: (262) 605-5100
Fax: (262) 653-6903

Kewaunee County Sheriff's Office  (KWSO)
John Cmeyla, Sheriff
620 Juneau Street
Kewaunee, WI 54216
Phone: (920) 388-3100
Fax: (920) 388-3998

La Crosse County Sheriff's Office  (LCSO)
Michael J. Weissenberger, Sheriff
333 Vine Street, Room 1500
La Crosse, WI 54601
Phone: (608) 785-9629
Fax: (608) 785-5640

Lafayette County Sheriff's Office  (LFSO)
Scott E. Pedley, Sheriff
138 West Catherine Street
P.O. Box 148
Darlington, WI 53530
Phone: (608) 776-4870
Fax: (608) 776-4808
[email protected]

Langlade County Sheriff's Office  (LGSO)
David C. Steger, Sheriff
840 Clermont Street
Antigo, WI 54409
Phone: (715) 627-6411
Fax: (715) 627-6433

Lincoln County Sheriff's Office  (LISO)
Thomas J. Koth, Sheriff
1104 East First Street
Merrill, WI 54452-2583
Phone: (715) 536-6272
Fax: (715) 536-6206

Manitowoc County Sheriff's Office  (MTSO)
Kenneth J. Petersen, Sheriff
1025 South Ninth Street
Manitowoc, WI 54220
Phone: (920) 683-4200
Fax: (920) 683-4946

Marathon County Sheriff's Office  (MNSO)
Randall J. Hoenisch, Sheriff
500 Forest Street
Wausau, WI 54403
Phone: (715) 261-1200
Fax: (715) 261-1221

Marinette County Sheriff's Office  (MRSO)
Michael Kessler, Sheriff
2161 University Drive
Marinette, WI 54143-3889
Phone: (715) 732-7600
Fax: (715) 732-7606

Marquette County Sheriff's Office  (MASO)
Ray H. Fullmer, Sheriff
67 Park Street
P.O. Box 630
Montello, WI 53949-0630
Phone: (608) 297-2115
Fax: (608) 297-9016

Menominee County Sheriff's Office  (MESO)
Bryan Lepscier, Sheriff
W3269 Courthouse Lane
P.O. Box 190
Keshena, WI 54135
Phone: (715) 799-3357
Fax: (715) 799-3595
[email protected]

Milwaukee County Sheriff's Office  (MCSO)
David A. Clarke, Jr., Sheriff
821 West State Street, Room 107
Milwaukee, WI 53233
Phone: (414) 278-4766
Fax: (414) 223-1386

MONROE COUNTY-None listed???? If anyone knows can you please let me know so I can update this list.

Oconto County Sheriff's Office  (OCSO)
Michael R. Jansen, Sheriff
301 Washington Street
Oconto, WI 54153
Phone: (920) 834-6900
Fax: (920) 834-6915

Oneida County Sheriff's Office  (ONSO)
Timothy Miller, Sheriff
2000 East Winnebago Street
Rhinelander, WI 54501
Phone: (715) 361-5100
Fax: (715) 361-5112

Outagamie County Sheriff's Office  (OUSO)
Bradley G. Gehring, Sheriff
410 South Walnut Street
Appleton, WI 54911
Phone: (920) 832-5605
Fax: (920) 832-5263

Ozaukee County Sheriff's Office  (OZSO)
Maury Straub, Sheriff
1201 South Spring Street
P.O. Box 245
Port Washington, WI 53074-0245
Phone: (262) 284-7172
Fax: (262) 284-8490

Pepin County Sheriff's Office  (PESO)
John C. Andrews, Sheriff
740-7th Avenue West
P.O. Box 39
Durand, WI 54736
Phone: (715) 672-5944
Fax: (715) 672-8753

Pierce County Sheriff's Office  (PCSO)
Everett S. Muhlhausen, Sheriff
432 West Main Street
P.O. Box 9
Ellsworth, WI 54011
Phone: (715) 273-5051
Fax: (715) 273-6856

Polk County Sheriff's Office  (POSO)
Ann M. Hraychuck, Sheriff
1005 West Main Street, Suite 900
Balsam Lake, WI 54810
Phone: (715) 485-8300
Fax: (715) 485-8355

Portage County Sheriff's Office  (PTSO)
John Charewicz, Sheriff
1500 Strongs Avenue
Stevens Point, WI 54481
Phone: (715) 346-1400
Fax: (715) 346-1591

Price County Sheriff's Office  (PRSO)
Wallace C. Krenzke, Sheriff
164 Cherry Street
P.O. Box B
Phillips, WI 54555
Phone: (715) 339-3011
Fax: (715) 339-4115

Racine County Sheriff's Office  (RASO)
Robert D. Carlson, Sheriff
717 Wisconsin Avenue
Racine, WI 53403-1237
Phone: (262) 636-3213
Fax: (262) 637-5279

Richland County Sheriff's Office  (RISO)
Darrell C. Berglin, Sheriff
181 West Seminary Street
Richland Center, WI 53581
Phone: (608) 647-8906/ (800) 544-2106
Fax: (608) 647-2624

Rock County Sheriff's Office  (ROSO)
Eric A. Runaas, Sheriff
200 East US Highway 14
Janesville, WI 53545
Phone: (608) 757-8000
Fax: (608) 757-7997

Rusk County Sheriff's Office  (RUSO)
Dean C. Meyer, Sheriff
311 Miner Avenue East, Suite L100
Ladysmith, WI 54848
Phone: (715) 532-2200
Fax: (715) 532-2175

Saint Croix County Sheriff's Office  
Dennis Hillstead, Sheriff
1101 Carmichael Road
Hudson, WI 54016
Phone: (715) 381-4320
Fax: (715) 386-4606

Sauk County Sheriff's Office  (SASO)
Randy M. Stammen, Sheriff
1300 Lange Court - Law Enforcement Center
Baraboo, WI 53913
Phone: (608) 356-4895
Fax: (608) 355-3572

Sawyer County Sheriff's Office  (SWSO)
James A. Meier, Sheriff
15880 East Fifth Street
Hayward, WI 54843
Phone: (715) 634-4858
Fax: (715) 634-3845

Shawano County Sheriff's Office  (SHSO)
R. A. Schmidt, Sheriff
405 North Main Street
Shawano, WI 54166
Phone: (715) 526-7905
Fax: (715) 524-5181

Sheboygan County Sheriff's Office  (SBSO)
Michael Helmke, Sheriff
525 North Sixth Street
Sheboygan, WI 53081
Phone: (920) 459-3112
Fax: (920) 459-4305

Taylor County Sheriff's Office  (TASO)
Jack Kay, Sheriff
224 South Second Street
Medford, WI 54451
Phone: (715) 748-2200
Fax: (715) 748-3813

Trempealeau County Sheriff's Office  (TRSO)
Randy Niederkorn, Sheriff
36245 Main Street
P.O. Box 67
Whitehall, WI 54773
Phone: (715) 538-4351
Fax: (715) 538-2148

Vernon County Sheriff's Office  (VESO)
Gene Cary, Sheriff
400 Courthouse Square
Viroqua, WI 54665
Phone: (608) 637-2124
Fax: (608) 637-5565

Vilas County Sheriff's Office  (VISO)
John A. Niebuhr, Sheriff
330 Court Street
Eagle River, WI 54521
Phone: (715) 479-4441
Fax: (715) 479-0621

Walworth County Sheriff's Office  (WWSO)
David A. Graves, Sheriff
W4054 County NN
P.O. Box 1004
Elkhorn, WI 53121
Phone: (262) 741-4400
Fax: (262) 741-4645
[email protected]

Washburn County Sheriff's Office  (WBSO)
Terrence C. Dryden, Sheriff
421 Highway 63
P.O. Box 429
Shell Lake, WI 54871-0429
Phone: (715) 468-4700
Fax: (715) 468-4715

Washington County Sheriff's Office  (WASO)
Brian Rahn, Sheriff
500 North Schmidt Road
P.O. Box 1986
West Bend, WI 53095-7986
Phone: (262) 335-4388
Fax: (262) 335-4429

Waukesha County Sheriff's Office  (WKSO)
Dan Trawicki, Sheriff
515 West Moreland Boulevard
P.O. Box 1488
Waukesha, WI 53187
Phone: (262) 548-7126
Fax: (262) 548-7887

Waupaca County Sheriff's Office  (WPSO)
Steve Liebe, Sheriff
1402 East Royalton Street
Waupaca, WI 54981
Phone: (715) 258-4466
Fax: (715) 256-4579

Waushara County Sheriff's Office  (WSSO)
David R. Peterson, Sheriff
430 East Division Street
Wautoma, WI 54982
Phone: (920) 787-3321
Fax: (920) 787-7685

Winnebago County Sheriff's Office  (WISO)
Michael E. Brooks, Sheriff
4311 Jackson Street
P.O. Box 2808
Oshkosh, WI 54903-2808
Phone: (920) 236-7300
Fax: (920) 236-7302

Wood County Sheriff's Office  (WOSO)
Kurt D. Heuer, Sheriff
400 Market Street
P.O. Box 8095
Wisconsin Rapids, WI 54495-8095
Phone: (715) 421-8700
Fax: (715) 421-8775

awesome, thank you for getting those for me. I need to talk to a few folks this week before I send these out... I'll keep everyone posted (and beg for money when the time comes)

Quoted: awesome, thank you for getting those for me. I need to talk to a few folks this week before I send these out... I'll keep everyone posted (and beg for money when the time comes)

No need to beg for it.

Quoted: im still tring to get arested for open carry.. did it 3 times last weekend and nothing..and this was down town on and near state st...i guess im to ugly for them to take me to jail

Try Having a Bushmaster Carbon 15 Type 97 PistolAs a Side Arm And Watch them Trample your A$$.

I don't have much time to go over it, but the letter still needs some work.
Great start.
The checkbox survey, with room for comments, and signature line, and date line are the way to go.

I think it would be worth while to pony up the extra $$ for certified mail with signature return reciepts.
That way theres a record of the attempt when you get blown off.

Also, when the final draft is ready, call everyone individually.
"Hello I'm a student, doing research, and you can expect this in the mail. I thank you very much for a speedy reply, a SASE is enclosed."

At this point, we will have done everything that we reasonably could to get a response and the no replyers look like they were negligent upon citizen request for clarification.

FMD, my understanding of the 'amicus curiae' is, that one is filed when there is a specific case before the court.
It is used when you are not directly involved in the case before them, but can show a vested interest in the outcome.
I have no idea what would be the point of filing the brief before there is a case.
Please explain.

Quoted: Can anyone point me to the specific parts of WI state law that allow open carry? In discussions with local LE they claim that WI State statutes do not allow open carry since it is not specificly stated. Av.

Artical 1 section 25 STATE OF WISCONSIN corparate constitution.

Just for the record I have a case that will be going to the STATE SC asking that question. Case # 01CM001195

Some of us are relentlessly aggressive basterds.

Alright cool - I need to check with some people, and I have a busy week, so I may not be able to get this rolling right away. I'll post later when Im ready to accept postage donations. I think I will change the letter so it sounds like Im just doing research - not a gun nut, and include a SASE (possibly do certified mail if its feasible and I get enough donations).

TJ,

The lawyer I talked to suggested the amicus brief, but I may be off on the order of things (We talked for about 2 hours on how one might circumvent a DC charge for open carry).  It might have been after a DC arrest and charge in a "friendly" jurisdiction, with the express idea to challenge or clarify the statute.

Between Tatoo and Bladerunner (Waukesha County BR?), I don't think we'd have to wait long...

-FMD

ETA: Dang Adrian, you're up late

Holy shit, you mean we could very well be helping out one of our own doing this as well?!! Thats cool.

Bladerunner, what's the status on the appeal? I couldn't find anything under that case number.

Quoted: Bladerunner, what's the status on the appeal? I couldn't find anything under that case number.

I'd like to know as well.  PM, look under Waukesha County...

ETA: Dang Adrian, you're up late

Yeah, college does that to you. Over the summer it was worse. My fiance worked from 1630 -0100 or 0200, depending when the paper got done. I was usually going to bed just before 4 am.


I want to talk to Jim Fendry this weekend at Ripon IDPA before I get these cranking. Early next week, or even this weekend, I should be able to start moving and get them out.

Quoted: Quoted: Bladerunner, what's the status on the appeal? I couldn't find anything under that case number. I'd like to know as well.  PM, look under Waukesha County...

I checked the appeals court/WSSP sites and didn't see anything.

Click here and hit the "I Agree" button.

Bypass all the fields except the last two.  Waukesha County, and the case #.

That should bring the case up.  Doesn't look like it's been appealed.

I checked that one first before hitting the other site.

Comes up for me, but I had to specify Waukesha...

Quoted: Comes up for me, but I had to specify Waukesha...

It works for me too, I thought the appeal was already filed, I was trying to find the actual briefs and such so I can see exactly how they are apealing, under what grounds and such. THere is nothing on that on the appeals court page or the state supreme court page.

Is there anything else that tells us more information? Or are you allowed to tell us some details? All I can see is someone was arrested for DC. What were they carrying, why the hell did he plea guilty/no contest, etc etc etc?

Quoted: Is there anything else that tells us more information? Or are you allowed to tell us some details? All I can see is someone was arrested for DC. What were they carrying, why the hell did he plea guilty/no contest, etc etc etc?

Actually the guilty/no contest plea got me tho I thought you gave up the right to appeal if you plead no contest. Maybe not though.

Adrian and All - to beat a CCW charge in WI, all you have to do is to be able to answer two questions.

Jim Fendry was at the IDPA shoot last weekend at Hartland.  As always, he was kind enough to give the approximately three dozen people present a quick run-down on the state of affairs of the best pro-gun PAC we have in Wisconsin.  Sinicki’s AWB shenanigans were brought up, as were several other antics by a few other anti-gun politicians (mostly from my area in Milw.).

What especially caught my attention was when Jim made mention of a letter he had in his possession from AG Peg Lautenschlager addressed to every prosecutor and every person in law enforcement in Wisconsin.  This letter stated specifically the statute which prohibits CCW (941.23) “cannot be applied constitutionally (re: Article 1, Section 25) in limited circumstances in which the individual’s interest in carrying a concealed weapon outweighs the state’s interest in enforcing the statute.”  Unless of course the individual had an “unlawful purpose” at the time they are carrying concealed.  I eagerly asked him to mail me what he had.  Because, in other words, I felt he was telling us he knew of a way to get out of a concealed weapon conviction.

Somewhat unfortunately for me, what Jim mailed was something I had already seen – it was the AG’s press release that came out the day after State v. Cole and State v. Hamdan  was released.  I re-read it anyway for the umpteenth time and found myself stuck on the following paragraph:

NEWS RELEASE
For Immediate Release
July 15, 2003

TO: Wisconsin Law Enforcement Personnel and Prosecutors
FROM: Peg Lautenschlager, Attorney General
Re: Supreme Court Decisions regarding the constitutionality of CCW statutes

(from Page 2)

The (Wisconsin) supreme court established a procedure by which “as applied” challenges to the CCW statute will be resolved.  A defendant must raise the issue by pretrial motion.  The trial court then must decide, as a matter of law, whether “the defendant’s interest in concealing the weapon to facilitate exercise of his or her right to keep and bear arms substantially outweigh(s) the State’s interest in enforcing the concealed weapons statute” and whether the defendant “conceal(ed) his or her weapon because concealment was the only reasonable means under the circumstances to exercise his or her right to bear arms.”  If the defendant persuades the court that the answer to both of theses questions is “yes, “ the constitutional defense will be sustained unless the state persuades the jury that the defendant had an unlawful purpose at the time he or she carried the concealed weapon.

The big question one must be prepared to answer convincingly remains:  Does the interest in my act of carrying a concealed weapon substantially outweigh the State’s interest in enforcing 941.23 (remembering that as the PPA was passed last time, it contained a provision prohibiting people with Class B or higher misdemeanor from getting a permit for at least 3 years)?

From State v. Hamdan:

The two questions the majority opinion establishes for determining whether a constitutional defense is available are broad sweeping and potentially apply to countless individuals under any number of circumstances. For example, an owner of a privately operated business caught carrying a concealed weapon while walking to deposit the store's earnings in a bank can certainly argue that he is exercising his right to keep and bear arms under circumstances in which the need to exercise the right is substantial and that concealment, while walking to and upon entering the bank, is the only reasonable means for exercising the right to bear arms under the circumstances.  So too can a store manager in charge for an absentee owner argue that she is exercising her right to keep and bear arms under circumstances in which the need to exercise the right is substantial and that concealment is the only reasonable means for exercising the right.  Indeed, what is to stop any person from claiming this right in his or her workplace? Similarly, anyone who must walk home from a bus stop every night after work through a high crime neighborhood can surely argue that his or her need to exercise the right to bear arms is high, concealment is necessary, and that his or her interests in self-protection substantially outweigh the State's interest in regulating concealed weapons. More importantly, when any court concludes that an individual is exempted from the prohibition on carrying a concealed weapon under this "substantially outweighs" test, the court is determining that the constitution demands the exception.  The legislature may not undo the court's determination absent another constitutional amendment.”

The second question, in my mind, is easier to answer:  Not violating (a part of) 941.23 is most easily accomplished by employing open carry.  But we all know that open carry is a bad idea, because:

• Some people are conditioned to become unnecessarily alarmed at the mere sight of a gun
• The University of Wisconsin Assistant Chief of Police Dale Burke has informed us that “Carrying a firearm in plain view in the City of Madison would indeed get you cited for Disorderly Conduct or worse…”
• He further states that, “In fact I think it increases your risk… by making you a target…”
• It’s just plain old tactically unsound.

Therefore, because it is tactically suicidal, potentially upsetting to members of the public who may have an irrational fear of guns, and also virtually guarantees that you will be affected unjustly with a Class B Disorderly Conduct citation (“or worse”, whatever that means) – it’s all glaringly obvious enough to me why I should just prefer to carry concealed instead of openly:  I do so for my own safety.

That is why keeping statements like the ones made by Dale Burke (and others like him) at your disposal is so important and the more “opinions” we can get from a wide assortment of cities and counties the better, as they will be part of your defense against a 941.23 charge.

So overall, this is really nothing new, but I still think that the survey is a very important endeavor.  We need it.  Bad.  Because I believe what this news release (old as it is) shows us is that it may be much easier to prevent a conviction of the CCW statute than it would be to get a “Disorderly Conduct” charge overturned and expunged (because let’s face it, they throw around DC charges like throw pillows pretty much everywhere).

If anyone would like the full two page news release from July 15th of last year (for some reason, I can’t find it anywhere on the WI AG’s website) please IM me your e-mail.

Also, for a little “light” reading, the entire Hamdan opinion can be seen here: http://www.wicourts.gov/sc/opinions/01/01-0056.doc and the entire Cole opinion (very sad reading) can be found here: www.wicourts.gov/sc/opinions/01/01-0350.doc

Sheesh - guess I should be checking the Hometown board more often!  

Dolomite - I just IM'd you.  
Muad_Dib and Adrian: Mark here from La Crosse (IDPA).

Put me down for $20 if you need it... after some more details get worked out.  I'd be interested in doing a "rally" or "march", but really can't afford to get arrested.

Does Jim Fendry work with Don Kingsbury?  Are they part of the WI Concealed Carry Association or are the Wisconsin Gun Owners...?   It seems like we have too many specialty gun groups.  Not that they are working against each other, more like just not being able to pool money and resources.  That's just my perspective... I haven't been keeping on top of things lately.

Promise to check in more often!  Keep up the good work guys!  

Quoted: Dolomite - I just IM'd you.

Replied!

Does Jim Fendry work with Don Kingsbury?  Are they part of the WI Concealed Carry Association or are the Wisconsin Gun Owners...?

 

Um... neither really - Theye're both in the Wisconsin Pro-Gun Movement aka GOPAC-WIS

Howdy Mark - wow, lots of familiar faces here.. very cool.

Does the interest in my act of carrying a concealed weapon substantially outweigh the State’s interest in enforcing 941.23 (remembering that as the PPA was passed last time, it contained a provision prohibiting people with Class B or higher misdemeanor from getting a permit for at least 3 years)?

How about approaching this from the other side? What is the state's interest in keeping me from CCWing? I have no criminal record, I have tactical, marksmanship and legal training, I am a law abiding citizen who would go out of my way to protect an innocent civilian or help a police officer, I don't do drugs, I don't drink heavily, I have a clean driving record, have held high security jobs with the feds and the state. What's the state's interest in keeping me disarmed? There is no evidence I am going to shoot any cops, commit any crimes, cockily brandish my gun to intimidate people, and if I ever have to use it it will be done so only to prevent the death of serious debilitating injury to myself or other innocent civilians, and I will most likely hit my intended target.

The State has nothing to worry about me carrying a gun to defend my life from criminals - what do they gain by having me disarmed? What could outweigh someone with a SPOTLESS record (well, I speeding ticket 5 years ago) wanting to be able to defend their life?!

Ok, I need to get working on my paper that is due tomorrow, but I will finalize these surveys and start sending them out.

I literally have no money (or very little) I can put into postage for this. As I get donations, I will mail stuff off, and I'll try to do it tactically, hit Madison, Milwaukee, Green Bay, LaCrosse first.

If you want to send me a check, here is my address:

Adrian Andrijasevic
1110 Bowen Ct
Madison, WI 53715

(I have enough ammo to last the rest of the month, so I can do better than Christian's Children Fund and assure you that 100 cents on every dollar will go to postage and printing supplies to get this shit out.)

When I hear responses, I'll post the results online, or update my webpage (once I get it up).

ONE MORE QUESTION

Someone suggested I do this from a non-gun approach - just pose as an undergrad doing research, and not identify myself in anyway with any gun clubs or shit. Does that sound like a good idea? More likely to get impartial responses perhaps?

Thanks guys for all your help, I hope this will be able to help us win back our rights!

Quoted: Someone suggested I do this from a non-gun approach - just pose as an undergrad doing research, and not identify myself in anyway with any gun clubs or shit. Does that sound like a good idea? More likely to get impartial responses perhaps?

YES!!! - an honest question from an undergrad doing research in Madison is more likely to be entertained by these types over one from a digruntled 30-something blue collar white male from Mil-town.

...and I put a little something in the mail for you today to help for postage.

THANKS!

Adrian and I will be at the Ripon IDPA match tomorrow if anyone wants to talk or donate to the cause.

Quoted: Quoted: Someone suggested I do this from a non-gun approach - just pose as an undergrad doing research, and not identify myself in anyway with any gun clubs or shit. Does that sound like a good idea? More likely to get impartial responses perhaps? YES!!! - an honest question from an undergrad doing research in Madison is more likely to be entertained by these types over one from a digruntled 30-something blue collar white male from Mil-town. ...and I put a little something in the mail for you today to help for postage. THANKS!

NO in no way can we misrepresent who we are, this is itself an honest enough question regardless of who asks it. What we run into than later is some DA or Sherrif saying later oh well i said that thinking it was for x reason, and it was really for y reason. We don't need that later down the road. We are not the anti-gunners who need to lie and misrepres4ent themselves and their organisations and goals. We are better than that. We need to let these people know that WE GUN OWNERS are watching, and that we are taking action, and that we mean what we say. So no, don;t send it s an undergrad doing research.

And As soon as I find a damn stamp, I'll mail you a check. Should be out today or tomarrow.

I guess it depends on what you consider a lie. Technically, I am an undergraduate doing reserach on Wisconsin gun laws. I could petition the misled mommies for donations as well....

It really shouldnt matter whether I am pro-gun or anti gun.. "the law is reason, free from passion," right?

Quoted: AdrianUSP9 if your in madison lets meet up or some shit..i live over by oscar myer's

Can I come play too?
T

Quoted: I could petition the misled mommies for donations as well....

Too funny.  

Don't forget to apply for a grant with the Joyce Foundation!

Joyce : "Gun violence takes nearly 30,000 American lives each year, second only to automobile crashes among causes of injury-related death."

I just checked the FBI UCS and the total number of homicides is more like 14,000. Are they including the death toll from Iraq? Are they still averaging in Vietnam and WWII? Lying rotten liers....

Wow, I just hi-jacked my own thread.

Tatoo and Tommy,

It'd be cool to meet you guys and go shooting sometime. This weekend is bad, and next week I'll be gone in South Dakota from Wed-Sunday. When I get back, I'll drop you guys an email and we'll try to get together sometime. We also have a SAFER shoot sometime this month, and there should be an OCT ARFCOM shoot, right?

Adrian, I'll be coming through Mad-town on my way to BulletCatcher's this weekend.  If you want, I van stop somewhere on the North side and drop off a check tomorrow AM...

IM me with a phone #, and I'll call before I shoot through.

-FMD

Quoted: I guess it depends on what you consider a lie. Technically, I am an undergraduate doing reserach on Wisconsin gun laws. I could petition the misled mommies for donations as well.... It really shouldnt matter whether I am pro-gun or anti gun.. "the law is reason, free from passion," right?

Saddly, like communism, it really only works in theory...

FMD - Sorry I missed you, next time you're in madison though, let us know. If you still want to help, drop me a check in the mail. i got a couple donations today....

tatoo  and others - I'll post when our next SAFER shoot will be - it will probably be towards the end of October. Hopefully we could meet up then.