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Posted: 5/16/2023 9:48:34 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: I have not sent any data or video that convinces me that 5.7 is a good round for SD. It has minimal power, small even with expansion, is pretty much beaten by everything over a 22mag. I just do not understand this cartridge. You should look at 357 Magnum. It has plenty of power and expansion and it pretty difficult to beat as it has a 97% one shot stop rate. |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 9:54:40 PM EDT
[#2]
Tagged. I’ve always wanted a 5.7 but as you stated, and other than defeating body armor.
Still intriguing…. |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 10:09:23 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You should look at 357 Magnum. It has plenty of power and expansion and it pretty difficult to beat as it has a 97% one shot stop rate. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I have not sent any data or video that convinces me that 5.7 is a good round for SD. It has minimal power, small even with expansion, is pretty much beaten by everything over a 22mag. I just do not understand this cartridge. You should look at 357 Magnum. It has plenty of power and expansion and it pretty difficult to beat as it has a 97% one shot stop rate. What is a one shot stop rate, and where does the 97% figure come from? The interesting thing about 5.7x28mm, OP, is in the 28 grn loads that exceed 2200 fps from a service pistol. That seemingly exceeds the elastic limits of flesh, which creates the large permanent wounds we see from rifle bullets, as opposed to the relatively small diameter blind holes we typically see from pistol bullets. The 40 grn loads at 1900 fps are going to behave like small pistol hollow points, should get reliable expansion and sufficient penetration, but you've got 20 of em in the mag, and it's a very lightweight package. And now, of course, we must invoke @PursuitSS |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 10:13:08 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What is a one shot stop rate, and where does the 97% figure come from? The interesting thing about 5.7x28mm, OP, is in the 28 grn loads that exceed 2200 fps from a service pistol. That seemingly exceeds the elastic limits of flesh, which creates the large permanent wounds we see from rifle bullets, as opposed to the relatively small diameter blind holes we typically see from pistol bullets. The 40 grn loads at 1900 fps are going to behave like small pistol hollow points, should get reliable expansion and sufficient penetration, but you've got 20 of em in the mag, and it's a very lightweight package. And now, of course, we must invoke @PursuitSS https://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm Might be out of date, but a good place to start. Also with newer data it might be modern medical care makes a difference |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 10:27:11 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm Might be out of date, but a good place to start. Also with newer data it might be modern medical care makes a difference Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What is a one shot stop rate, and where does the 97% figure come from? The interesting thing about 5.7x28mm, OP, is in the 28 grn loads that exceed 2200 fps from a service pistol. That seemingly exceeds the elastic limits of flesh, which creates the large permanent wounds we see from rifle bullets, as opposed to the relatively small diameter blind holes we typically see from pistol bullets. The 40 grn loads at 1900 fps are going to behave like small pistol hollow points, should get reliable expansion and sufficient penetration, but you've got 20 of em in the mag, and it's a very lightweight package. And now, of course, we must invoke @PursuitSS https://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm Might be out of date, but a good place to start. Also with newer data it might be modern medical care makes a difference Unfortunately, Marshall and Sanow made up their data, so your 97% figure is a # plucked out of thin air and is meaningless. Greg Ellerflitz, or however he spells it, may or may not have made up his data - but he never published it, so we have no idea of his study's accuracy. Marshall and Sanow were caught in their 2nd book w/ statistical impossibilities, IIRC. |
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Posted: 5/16/2023 11:52:28 PM EDT
[#6]
@backbencher
Thank you for the response. |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 12:40:44 AM EDT
[#7]
I like 5.7 because it’s fun to shoot and very light recoil while holding 20+ rounds.
With proper ammo it *can* defeat some armor if that’s your thing too I suppose. |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 12:43:39 AM EDT
[#8]
I think the ship has sailed on Level 3A armor. You're like as not up against Level 3 or up plates, so unless you're hauling around a 20" AR w/ M193, you're not even getting through steel Level 3 plates.
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Posted: 5/17/2023 11:19:55 AM EDT
[#9]
Let’s see…..
20+ rounds capacity Very low to no recoil Accurate out of a handgun to 100 yards 2,400 fps out of a handgun (Elite Ammunition S4) (Hydrostatic Energy) Will easily penetrate at least 3 panels of Level IIIA body armor Will penetrate 1 1/4” Bulletproof Glass NO ONE survived a center of mass shot in the Fort Hood shootings Shattered an Officers Femur into 112 pieces This was using the next to WEAKEST load for the 5.7 (FN SS197) You compare it to a .22 Magnum, LOL, name me ONE .22 Magnum that can accomplish all of the above! How about the vaunted.45 acp. Jeff Cooper was fond of saying one shot 90% stop ratio. This Police Officer HIT the dirtbag with 14 rounds before he went down! https://www.police1.com/officer-shootings/articles/why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job-clGBbLYpnqqHxwMq/ |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 11:26:37 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: I have not sent any data or video that convinces me that 5.7 is a good round for SD. It has minimal power, small even with expansion, is pretty much beaten by everything over a 22mag. I just do not understand this cartridge. The 5.7 was developed for the remarkable P90, which is the modern replacement for the M1carbine, and a remarkable weapon system. The shorter BBL (lower velocity) handgun version was a specification requirement for commonality of ammunition usage. 5.7 was not developed as being a great optimized pistol round, so much as a pistol was needed, that fired in a remarkably great high-cap/low-recoil/high-effecient REMF Oh-Shit gun's optimized round - (i.e. optimized for the P90, NOT for the pistol). As to the current fad of 5.7 in handguns - not for me. Capacity is higher, and it's still wicked fast and good at defeating yesterdays body armor, with the right ammo. But for my interest, it's a remarkably expensive .22 Magnum. Others love it, and love the very high cap. I've shot them, they are fun to shoot - especially when someone else is buying the ammo. unfortunately, reloading the round can be spotty, since apparently it also requires a surface coating on the brass, for optimal results - which few people are tooled up to do. Basically, if there were no SBR laws, and I had the ability to readily have a proper P90, at the ACTUAL price it should be, for a plastic and stamped metal gun - I'd have 2 of them right now. But at the PS90 with the goofy 16" BBL (that isn't super easy to convert), combined with the exotic round that never really hit critical mass or economy of scale, that I can't reload, that's not IMHO an ideal pistol round.... Meh. But if YOU have one,"Hey! let's go shooting and be sure to bring that P90!" 
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Posted: 5/17/2023 11:27:00 AM EDT
[#11]
Another plus would be that there are some 22 LR cans that are rated for 5.7
Red |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 11:32:53 AM EDT
[#12]
I know the CMMG Banshee in 5.7 runs like a typewriter, and it shoots flat out through 125y-160y depending on ammo.
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Posted: 5/17/2023 11:36:24 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The 5.7 was developed for the remarkable P90, which is the modern replacement for the M1carbine, and a remarkable weapon system. The shorter BBL (lower velocity) handgun version was a specification requirement for commonality of ammunition usage. 5.7 was not developed as being a great optimized pistol round, so much as a pistol was needed, that fired in a remarkably great high-cap/low-recoil/high-effecient REMF Oh-Shit gun's optimized round - (i.e. optimized for the P90, NOT for the pistol). As to the current fad of 5.7 in handguns - not for me. Cacity is higher, and it's still wicket fast and good at defeating yesterdays body armor, with the right ammo. But for my interested, it's a remarkably expensive .22 Magnum. Others love it, and love the very high cap. I've shot them, they are fun to shoot - especially when someone else is buying the ammo. unfortuantely, reloading the round can be spotty, since apparently it also requires a surface coating on the brass, for optimal results - which few people are tooled up to do. Basically, if there were no SBR laws, and I had the ability to readily have a proper P90, at the ACTUAL price it should be, for a plastic and stamped metal gun - I'd have 2 of them right now. But at the PS90 with the goofy 16" BBL (that isn't super easy to convert), combined with the exotic round that never really hit critical mass or economy of scale, that I can't reload, that's not IMHO an ideal pistol round.... Meh. But if YOU have one,"Hey! let's go shooting and be sure to bring that P90!" It’s EASY to reload if you aren’t lazy! I can change the barrel in a PS90 in LESS than 10 minutes! |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 12:18:36 PM EDT
[#14]
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Posted: 5/17/2023 12:27:56 PM EDT
[#15]
They conveniently didn’t include GOOD 5.7 Ammunition!
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Posted: 5/17/2023 12:42:24 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s EASY to reload if you aren’t lazy! I can change the barrel in a PS90 in LESS than 10 minutes! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The 5.7 was developed for the remarkable P90, which is the modern replacement for the M1carbine, and a remarkable weapon system. The shorter BBL (lower velocity) handgun version was a specification requirement for commonality of ammunition usage. 5.7 was not developed as being a great optimized pistol round, so much as a pistol was needed, that fired in a remarkably great high-cap/low-recoil/high-effecient REMF Oh-Shit gun's optimized round - (i.e. optimized for the P90, NOT for the pistol). As to the current fad of 5.7 in handguns - not for me. Cacity is higher, and it's still wicket fast and good at defeating yesterdays body armor, with the right ammo. But for my interested, it's a remarkably expensive .22 Magnum. Others love it, and love the very high cap. I've shot them, they are fun to shoot - especially when someone else is buying the ammo. unfortuantely, reloading the round can be spotty, since apparently it also requires a surface coating on the brass, for optimal results - which few people are tooled up to do. Basically, if there were no SBR laws, and I had the ability to readily have a proper P90, at the ACTUAL price it should be, for a plastic and stamped metal gun - I'd have 2 of them right now. But at the PS90 with the goofy 16" BBL (that isn't super easy to convert), combined with the exotic round that never really hit critical mass or economy of scale, that I can't reload, that's not IMHO an ideal pistol round.... Meh. But if YOU have one,"Hey! let's go shooting and be sure to bring that P90!" It’s EASY to reload if you aren’t lazy! I can change the barrel in a PS90 in LESS than 10 minutes! Hey! Let's you and I go shooting. And be sure to bring that P90! |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 1:22:47 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They conveniently didn’t include GOOD 5.7 Ammunition! You mean the limited production run, incredibly expensive or illegal ammunition? Meanwhile, I can get dozens of quality proven, hollowpoint 9mm loads (for example) anywhere for less and it will actually work in a compact or subcompact handgun I don't give a flip about this magic bullet vs that magic bullet, I don't care if the thing is made out of milk chocolate. It's stiil a 40 gr or less bullet at 30 carbine velocities. There is a reason a lot of guides and hunting leases do not allow 5.7 for anything other than varmit hunting. While we are at it, I was always curious about the obsessive "it works against body armor!!!! " claims. So? The only folks wearing body armor on a daily basis is LE or .mil (or in some cities, EMS) Don't get me wrong. 5.7 would be pretty much the ultimate lightweight varmit cartridge. Put the thing in a Mini-Mauser action and I'll be first in line to buy one. The new Ruger carbine would be nice in that role too. (I could put a hell of a lot of hurt on jackrabbits with one) |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 1:52:34 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You mean the limited production run, incredibly expensive or illegal ammunition? Meanwhile, I can get dozens of quality proven, hollowpoint 9mm loads (for example) anywhere for less and it will actually work in a compact or subcompact handgun I don't give a flip about this magic bullet vs that magic bullet, I don't care if the thing is made out of milk chocolate. It's stiil a 40 gr or less bullet at 30 carbine velocities. There is a reason a lot of guides and hunting leases do not allow 5.7 for anything other than varmit hunting. While we are at it, I was always curious about the obsessive "it works against body armor!!!! " claims. So? The only folks wearing body armor on a daily basis is LE or .mil (or in some cities, EMS) Don't get me wrong. 5.7 would be pretty much the ultimate lightweight varmit cartridge. Put the thing in a Mini-Mauser action and I'll be first in line to buy one. The new Ruger carbine would be nice in that role too. (I could put a hell of a lot of hurt on jackrabbits with one) Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They conveniently didn’t include GOOD 5.7 Ammunition! You mean the limited production run, incredibly expensive or illegal ammunition? Meanwhile, I can get dozens of quality proven, hollowpoint 9mm loads (for example) anywhere for less and it will actually work in a compact or subcompact handgun I don't give a flip about this magic bullet vs that magic bullet, I don't care if the thing is made out of milk chocolate. It's stiil a 40 gr or less bullet at 30 carbine velocities. There is a reason a lot of guides and hunting leases do not allow 5.7 for anything other than varmit hunting. While we are at it, I was always curious about the obsessive "it works against body armor!!!! " claims. So? The only folks wearing body armor on a daily basis is LE or .mil (or in some cities, EMS) Don't get me wrong. 5.7 would be pretty much the ultimate lightweight varmit cartridge. Put the thing in a Mini-Mauser action and I'll be first in line to buy one. The new Ruger carbine would be nice in that role too. (I could put a hell of a lot of hurt on jackrabbits with one)  Crooks have been known to wear body armor. Cops have been known to be crooks, even murderers. A FW cop just went down for murdering a woman in her own house when he went traipsing through her backyard.Do tell about this illegal 5.7x28mm ammunition. |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 1:59:22 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hey! Let's you and I go shooting. And be sure to bring that P90! Texas is a little far away. |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 2:01:30 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Crooks have been known to wear body armor. Cops have been known to be crooks, even murderers. A FW cop just went down for murdering a woman in her own house when he went traipsing through her backyard.Do tell about this illegal 5.7x28mm ammunition. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: They conveniently didn’t include GOOD 5.7 Ammunition! You mean the limited production run, incredibly expensive or illegal ammunition? Meanwhile, I can get dozens of quality proven, hollowpoint 9mm loads (for example) anywhere for less and it will actually work in a compact or subcompact handgun I don't give a flip about this magic bullet vs that magic bullet, I don't care if the thing is made out of milk chocolate. It's stiil a 40 gr or less bullet at 30 carbine velocities. There is a reason a lot of guides and hunting leases do not allow 5.7 for anything other than varmit hunting. While we are at it, I was always curious about the obsessive "it works against body armor!!!! " claims. So? The only folks wearing body armor on a daily basis is LE or .mil (or in some cities, EMS) Don't get me wrong. 5.7 would be pretty much the ultimate lightweight varmit cartridge. Put the thing in a Mini-Mauser action and I'll be first in line to buy one. The new Ruger carbine would be nice in that role too. (I could put a hell of a lot of hurt on jackrabbits with one) Crooks have been known to wear body armor. Cops have been known to be crooks, even murderers. A FW cop just went down for murdering a woman in her own house when he went traipsing through her backyard.Do tell about this illegal 5.7x28mm ammunition. ? There are a lot of examples to use. That was an odd one. It wasn't Murder in the classic sense of F'that Guy I'm gonna Kill Him! So much as manslaughter and grossly bad decision making. If that cop had 15 seconds and a more accurate situation assessment, he wouldn't have shot. Making it manslaughter - to which he needs to be held to task - but not "murder", so much in my book. But then, I don't think Alec Baldwin did "murder" either. And, in that FW example, if she had a 5.7, and shot him, and it penetrated his armor - she'd be on death row right now. And everyone here would be high-fiving over it. Lots of other potential examples, but I wouldn't have selected that one. |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 2:03:30 PM EDT
[#21]
I got into 5.7 for my SBR PS90.
It's my car-surrounded-by- Small, relatively light, 50rd, one hand operation if necessary. |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 2:05:13 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Crooks have been known to wear body armor. Cops have been known to be crooks, even murderers. A FW cop just went down for murdering a woman in her own house when he went traipsing through her backyard.Do tell about this illegal 5.7x28mm ammunition. The "good stuff" that 5.7 guys always gas on about and that FN will not sell you. |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 2:12:23 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The "good stuff" that 5.7 guys always gas on about and that FN will not sell you. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Crooks have been known to wear body armor. Cops have been known to be crooks, even murderers. A FW cop just went down for murdering a woman in her own house when he went traipsing through her backyard.Do tell about this illegal 5.7x28mm ammunition. The "good stuff" that 5.7 guys always gas on about and that FN will not sell you. Are you saying that the legacy 5.7x28mm ammo still on the market is illegal? |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 2:19:46 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The "good stuff" that 5.7 guys always gas on about and that FN will not sell you. FN won't sell civilians SS190. It's made for punching armor but doesn't have the best terminal ballistics. Its not illegal and can be found on Gunbroker, though stupid expensive. Elite/Vanguard etc make decent defense rounds that will still punch IIIa. PSA (AAC) is getting into the game and I'm curious what they come up with. I only have a 5.7 pistol because i have a PS90 SBR. Otherwise i would probably not be in the caliber. But 24-31 rd of hot intermediate caliber in a concealable 100yd handgun is pretty cool. |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 2:28:25 PM EDT
[#25]
As far as “Illegal” ammo???
I just ordered a bunch of Elite Ammunition T6B for carrying.  5.7x28mm, Elite Ammunition 28gr T6 (All copper), VS Level IIIA Body Armor, FiveSeveN  Failed To Load Title  5.7x28mm, 32gr PFP, T6B Elite Ammunition, Ballistic Review  5.7x28mm, 32gr T6B, Elite Ammunition, Testing |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 7:23:13 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What is a one shot stop rate, and where does the 97% figure come from? The interesting thing about 5.7x28mm, OP, is in the 28 grn loads that exceed 2200 fps from a service pistol. That seemingly exceeds the elastic limits of flesh, which creates the large permanent wounds we see from rifle bullets, as opposed to the relatively small diameter blind holes we typically see from pistol bullets. The 40 grn loads at 1900 fps are going to behave like small pistol hollow points, should get reliable expansion and sufficient penetration, but you've got 20 of em in the mag, and it's a very lightweight package. And now, of course, we must invoke @PursuitSS Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have not sent any data or video that convinces me that 5.7 is a good round for SD. It has minimal power, small even with expansion, is pretty much beaten by everything over a 22mag. I just do not understand this cartridge. You should look at 357 Magnum. It has plenty of power and expansion and it pretty difficult to beat as it has a 97% one shot stop rate. What is a one shot stop rate, and where does the 97% figure come from? The interesting thing about 5.7x28mm, OP, is in the 28 grn loads that exceed 2200 fps from a service pistol. That seemingly exceeds the elastic limits of flesh, which creates the large permanent wounds we see from rifle bullets, as opposed to the relatively small diameter blind holes we typically see from pistol bullets. The 40 grn loads at 1900 fps are going to behave like small pistol hollow points, should get reliable expansion and sufficient penetration, but you've got 20 of em in the mag, and it's a very lightweight package. And now, of course, we must invoke @PursuitSS From the discredited "Strasbourg" goat-shooting tests. Can't believe that's still being used by some as a measurement of alleged "lethality." |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 8:10:30 PM EDT
[#27]
The PS90 is unique and fun to shoot, that's all the reason I need. I'm not kicking in doors with one in my hands.
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Posted: 5/17/2023 9:02:42 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From the discredited "Strasbourg" goat-shooting tests. Can't believe that's still being used by some as a measurement of alleged "lethality." Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have not sent any data or video that convinces me that 5.7 is a good round for SD. It has minimal power, small even with expansion, is pretty much beaten by everything over a 22mag. I just do not understand this cartridge. You should look at 357 Magnum. It has plenty of power and expansion and it pretty difficult to beat as it has a 97% one shot stop rate. What is a one shot stop rate, and where does the 97% figure come from? The interesting thing about 5.7x28mm, OP, is in the 28 grn loads that exceed 2200 fps from a service pistol. That seemingly exceeds the elastic limits of flesh, which creates the large permanent wounds we see from rifle bullets, as opposed to the relatively small diameter blind holes we typically see from pistol bullets. The 40 grn loads at 1900 fps are going to behave like small pistol hollow points, should get reliable expansion and sufficient penetration, but you've got 20 of em in the mag, and it's a very lightweight package. And now, of course, we must invoke @PursuitSS From the discredited "Strasbourg" goat-shooting tests. Can't believe that's still being used by some as a measurement of alleged "lethality." No, lol, that was the next column over. The 97% came from Marshall & Sanow. It was easy to bamboozle people before the interwebz. Now you need coordinated action between nation-states & the UN. |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 10:17:12 PM EDT
[#29]
 What did they intend this gun for?!?! M&P 5.7 |
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Posted: 5/17/2023 10:31:46 PM EDT
[#30]
@Buffman_Lt1
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Posted: 5/17/2023 11:31:54 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Buffman_Lt1 Many have found a copper segmented solid (to keep the bullet long and weight down) bullets at sub 34gr to be preferred in this caliber. They can get upwards of 2300-2400+ fps from the pistol. Penetration depths of the VG BDF, and T6B are 16-18"+. 20-24 rds of that in a low recoiling package doesn't sound bad to me. It's always odd to me that people seem to detract from 5.7 because "Low volume niche specialty ammo", but I certainly don't recommend people trust a Aguila, Fiocchi, WWB JHP for self defense. I recommend the cream of the crop; HST, Ranger T, Gold Dot. Economy of scale comes into play, and there's WAY more 9mm in the world. You can buy a Rock for $600 that so far in my testing performs every bit as good as the FSN. Is it's ammo still 3X 9mm, yep. Am I hopeful that AAC will come out with a more economical SD/PP load in 5.7, yes I am. |
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Posted: 5/18/2023 1:42:20 PM EDT
[#32]
Not everything has to be used for SD. Competition & variety is good for the consumer.
Some firearms can just be fun to shoot at the range. |
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Posted: 5/18/2023 1:43:29 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The PS90 is unique and fun to shoot, that's all the reason I need. I'm not kicking in doors with one in my hands. Exactly. Love mine too & my PSA Rock is also fun to shoot. No other reason needed to own it |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 6:37:56 PM EDT
[#34]
Energy foot pound wise, it is far more powerful than .380 and close to, but not, 9mm performance. Pistol will not achieve velocities capable of inducing hydrostatic shock. Does dump a considerable amount of energy and wound cavities are very impressive, but penetration is not great. Some will argue that is good as all energy is dumped into the target, and does not just pass through.
Think it is a fine choice for home defense where recoil is an issue (e.g. Ez Rack 380 market). Recoil is almost nonexistent, and much lower, to me, than a Sig P365-380 or Ruger Security 380. Low chance of over penetration would be a bonus in urban situations, family homes, especially apartments/houses with drywall. Follow up shots are remarkably fast, swarm of bees approach, so if multiple intruders might be a concern-could be a good choice. It is loud as hell and has a lot of muzzle flash, so a 22 can would help inside (still would be supersonic). 5.7 pistols are very large platforms as caliber requires longer barrels to reach high velocity/ grip is large to accommodate length of round-- so concealed carry would not be practical for most. Good car/truck pistol in urban areas where there might be a potential need for a “swarm of bees” to meet a swarm —especially where a rifle or pdw might not be practical. There are no magic 5.7 loads. That is part of the hype. Some of the small loaders do offer rounds with superior performance than factory and they do achieve lower 9mm energy levels and 3A penetration. Whether the increased cost of those specialty loads is worth it is really is an individual cost/benefit decision. But the extreme claims about “magic loads,” especially by one particular re-loader, is really just plain old puffery. Factory loads, especially SS195LF, and SS198LF will achieve velocities between 2050-2200 ft with a 27gr bullet, penetrate 3A (especially 198lf), and would be more than adequate for most situations where 5.7 would be the right tool. |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 6:50:50 PM EDT
[#35]
And then there's this little guy. If you think about it, they're both kinda weak .22cal bullet shooters
  https://www.hightowerarmory.com/High-Tower-Armory-9022-Black_p_28.html SBR it, and you'll have a .22LR P90. CCI Stinger .22LR: 141 ft-lb. 5.7 FN: 400 ft-lb (.22 Magnum : 300 ft-lb) So the 5.7 definitely wins there. Ah well. |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 7:07:27 PM EDT
[#36]
Sometimes my hand gives me some trouble. A lifetime of manual labor can do that. I have already dropped down to .38 Super/9x19mm/.38 Special. The 5.7 fits in here well, except for CC.
I never understood why Stargate SG-1 used P-90s and Berettas. If I had to walk and carry a P-90 and a pistol plus ammo, I would prefer the lighter 5.7 pistol. Anyway, I like it, DVC, hey, 2 out of 3 ain’t bad. |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 8:04:06 PM EDT
[#37]
Because a psa rock is only $400 this weekend OP! Im gonna grab one....probably.
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Posted: 5/26/2023 8:35:29 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Energy foot pound wise, it is far more powerful than .380 and close to, but not, 9mm performance. Pistol will not achieve velocities capable of inducing hydrostatic shock. Does dump a considerable amount of energy and wound cavities are very impressive, but penetration is not great. Some will argue that is good as all energy is dumped into the target, and does not just pass through. Think it is a fine choice for home defense where recoil is an issue (e.g. Ez Rack 380 market). Recoil is almost nonexistent, and much lower, to me, than a Sig P365-380 or Ruger Security 380. Low chance of over penetration would be a bonus in urban situations, family homes, especially apartments/houses with drywall. Follow up shots are remarkably fast, swarm of bees approach, so if multiple intruders might be a concern-could be a good choice. It is loud as hell and has a lot of muzzle flash, so a 22 can would help inside (still would be supersonic). 5.7 pistols are very large platforms as caliber requires longer barrels to reach high velocity/ grip is large to accommodate length of round-- so concealed carry would not be practical for most. Good car/truck pistol in urban areas where there might be a potential need for a “swarm of bees” to meet a swarm —especially where a rifle or pdw might not be practical. There are no magic 5.7 loads. That is part of the hype. Some of the small loaders do offer rounds with superior performance than factory and they do achieve lower 9mm energy levels and 3A penetration. Whether the increased cost of those specialty loads is worth it is really is an individual cost/benefit decision. But the extreme claims about “magic loads,” especially by one particular re-loader, is really just plain old puffery. Factory loads, especially SS195LF, and SS198LF will achieve velocities between 2050-2200 ft with a 27gr bullet, penetrate 3A (especially 198lf), and would be more than adequate for most situations where 5.7 would be the right tool. It would seem some of the aftermarket 27 grn loads exceed 2300 fps from a pistol, but you're claiming they still won't cause a rifle type wound? |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 9:16:59 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Energy foot pound wise, it is far more powerful than .380 and close to, but not, 9mm performance. Pistol will not achieve velocities capable of inducing hydrostatic shock. Does dump a considerable amount of energy and wound cavities are very impressive, but penetration is not great. Some will argue that is good as all energy is dumped into the target, and does not just pass through. There are no magic 5.7 loads.That is part of the hype. Some of the small loaders do offer rounds with superior performance than factory and they do achieve lower 9mm energy levels and 3A penetration. Whether the increased cost of those specialty loads is worth it is really is an individual cost/benefit decision. But the extreme claims about “magic loads,” especially by one particular re-loader, is really just plain old puffery. Factory loads, especially SS195LF, and SS198LF will achieve velocities between 2050-2200 ft with a 27gr bullet, penetrate 3A (especially 198lf), and would be more than adequate for most situations where 5.7 would be the right tool. 2,400 fps from a pistol WILL achieve hydrostatic shock (Elite Ammunition S4M) 16” PLUS penetration is “not good”? You better look at Elite Ammunition’s S4 or S4M loads, also Elite Ammunition’s T6B R&R Weaponry’s R37.X went through a Level IIIA panel and then continued 16” into ballistic gell |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 9:40:22 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 2,400 fps from a pistol WILL achieve hydrostatic shock (Elite Ammunition S4M) 16” PLUS penetration is “not good”? You better look at Elite Ammunition’s S4 or S4M loads, also Elite Ammunition’s T6B R&R Weaponry’s R37.X went through a Level IIIA panel and then continued 16” into ballistic gell I have. I gave a pretty detailed response to your alert about Elite Ammo. Ran down a wide variety of loads from a lot of different makers. Think you will find other independents have not duplicated Elite's hyper velocity claims. Always good to look at more than one source. Especially when performance that would very likely have to exceed Sami pressure limits are made for a reloaded round. Think 5.7 is a very capable for certain purpose/situations. I do respectfully disagree with the hyper performance claims. |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 10:09:35 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have. I gave a pretty detailed response to your alert about Elite Ammo. Ran down a wide variety of loads from a lot of different makers. Think you will find other independents have not duplicated Elite's hyper velocity claims. Always good to look at more than one source. Especially when performance that would very likely have to exceed Sami pressure limits are made for a reloaded round. Think 5.7 is a very capable for certain purpose/situations. I do respectfully disagree with the hyper performance claims. Buffman_LT1 is a pretty good source and I really enjoy calling him into the 5.7 threads ETA looks like I already did… 
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Posted: 5/27/2023 12:24:32 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Buffman_LT1 is a pretty good source and I really enjoy calling him into the 5.7 threads ETA looks like I already did |
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Posted: 5/27/2023 7:37:50 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm able to get 2375 fps or upwards of 2,450 from the S4 variants. EA I think finally revised his listings to 2,500 from the 28gr variants. Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm able to get 2375 fps or upwards of 2,450 from the S4 variants. EA I think finally revised his listings to 2,500 from the 28gr variants. Quoted: I routinely hit 2375-2400 fps with S4. Any ideas on why others are currently getting much less than those velocities? Even if others are wrong, and the mid end of your numbers is used, around 350ft lbs? Not exactly hyper performance for $3 a round reloads. (He pulls factory SS195, and reuses the FN brass, primer and bullet correct?) Think you are aware of the level of sophistication of this reloader, including the lack of pressure testing. Sami pressure spec is 50.000 psi. Have you gotten his claimed extreme velocity numbers from the much hyped “T6” variants out of a handgun? Math of the claimed velocities and resulting pressure does not reconcile with an in spec load…. Not a lot of polymer to protect a person from 51,000psi should an over-pressure of a reload occur. Lot of colorful info out there about that company/reloader for people to draw their own conclusions. Think he is banned here-- like he has been from a number of other forums? I would not recommend but some seem to really like that flavor of Kool-Aid. |
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Posted: 5/27/2023 8:06:55 AM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 5/27/2023 8:23:30 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Any ideas on why others are currently getting much less than those velocities? Even if others are wrong, and the mid end of your numbers is used, around 350ft lbs? Not exactly hyper performance for $3 a round reloads. (He pulls factory SS195, and reuses the FN brass, primer and bullet correct?) Think you are aware of the level of sophistication of this reloader, including the lack of pressure testing. Sami pressure spec is 50.000 psi. Have you gotten his claimed extreme velocity numbers from the much hyped “T6” variants out of a handgun? Math of the claimed velocities and resulting pressure does not reconcile with an in spec load…. Not a lot of polymer to protect a person from 51,000psi should an over-pressure of a reload occur. Lot of colorful info out there about that company/reloader for people to draw their own conclusions. Think he is banned here-- like he has been from a number of other forums? I would not recommend but some seem to really like that flavor of Kool-Aid. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm able to get 2375 fps or upwards of 2,450 from the S4 variants. EA I think finally revised his listings to 2,500 from the 28gr variants. Quoted: I routinely hit 2375-2400 fps with S4. Any ideas on why others are currently getting much less than those velocities? Even if others are wrong, and the mid end of your numbers is used, around 350ft lbs? Not exactly hyper performance for $3 a round reloads. (He pulls factory SS195, and reuses the FN brass, primer and bullet correct?) Think you are aware of the level of sophistication of this reloader, including the lack of pressure testing. Sami pressure spec is 50.000 psi. Have you gotten his claimed extreme velocity numbers from the much hyped “T6” variants out of a handgun? Math of the claimed velocities and resulting pressure does not reconcile with an in spec load…. Not a lot of polymer to protect a person from 51,000psi should an over-pressure of a reload occur. Lot of colorful info out there about that company/reloader for people to draw their own conclusions. Think he is banned here-- like he has been from a number of other forums? I would not recommend but some seem to really like that flavor of Kool-Aid. The high velocity 28 grn loads are fascinating not b/c of their energy, but how they use that energy. Normal pistol rounds from 200-500 ft lbs are typically cutting a blind hole up to the maximum diameter of the expanded hollow point. Above 2000-2200 fps, we are seemingly exceeding the elastic limit of flesh, and are getting a much larger permanent wound channel for a given amount of energy. I think the jury is still out - I'd love to see someone go shoot a lot of hogs w/ some 28 grn loads from various 5.7 pistols, but it's not exactly a popular hog round yet. |
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Posted: 5/27/2023 8:59:17 AM EDT
[#46]
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26470704/#article-details
"Conclusions: The bullet's construction and ballistic behavior within tissue determine to what extent the previously overestimated velocity factor may influence wound severity. The damage produced from temporary cavitation depends on the tensile properties of the tissues involved, and in high-energy injuries may lead to progressive muscle tissue necrosis. Therefore, the term "high-energy" should be reserved for those injuries with substantial tissue damage extending beyond the visible wound tract. Do agree the jury may be out, but velocity alone, which is promoted by the hyper performance proponents, is not the be all end all factor. It is a capable round. Just not magic. Would be great to see a Buffman hog hunt, but doubt Youtube would allow that. |
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Posted: 5/27/2023 11:10:30 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "Conclusions: The bullet's construction and ballistic behavior within tissue determine to what extent the previously overestimated velocity factor may influence wound severity. I averaged 2,410 out of ten shots using a friend’s chronograph. Are you going to call ME a LIAR!!! |
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Posted: 5/27/2023 11:49:46 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I averaged 2,410 out of ten shots using a friend’s chronograph. Are you going to call ME a LIAR!!! Don't name call. Prefer to look at facts. Let's assume your numbers are correct, others people's results aren't. What is your basis for believing the 27gr. (or 28) projectile made by FN not Elite, pushed to 2400ft, automatically results in rifle like cavitation? BTW you seem to have missed the full quote " previously overestimated "velocity factor," and have mistakenly focused on velocity alone. That, in my opinion, is the gap in the evidence those in the hyper performance camp don't address. All that is ever offered is velocity numbers, and not proof of actual cavitation. Velocity alone is not determinative. Always open to considering additional facts/info if you have any to share. I have never seen any actual evidence of rifle like cavitation from a handgun by that re-loader, or anyone else. Be more than happy to consider any evidence demonstrating "substantial tissue damage extending beyond the visible wound tract" if you have any. |
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Posted: 5/27/2023 12:06:17 PM EDT
[#49]
IF you would bother to watch Buffmans videos on YouTube you would get your answers!!!
BTW, anything over 2,000 fps is in hydrostatic range! Also chamber pressure is NOT measured in psi it’s measured in Copper Units of Pressure (cup) |
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Posted: 5/27/2023 12:40:26 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IF you would bother to watch Buffmans videos on YouTube you would get your answers!!! BTW, anything over 2,000 fps is in hydrostatic range....! I have seen some of Buffman's videos. Good for what they are, I won't try to speak for him, but I don't think even he would argue that what he does are tests designed to determine cavitation of tissue adjacent to a wound track. Seems you are firmly in the velocity is all that matters camp. There are other views, and evidence, that velocity alone is not determinative . What is the evidence you rely on to support your conclusion that anything pushed over 2000 ft automatically equals cavitation/hydrostatic shock? |
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