This video answers nearly every questions answered in this thread.

https://youtu.be/gn3Jd3XTIQ8

Along with this white paper:

MRDS White Paper by Sage Dynamics

ABSOLUTELY

Got both the video and paper saved. Wife has surgery Wednesday so I will have something to do in the surgical lounge while waiting

I think for concealed carry it won't be an issue.

Training, competitions, or hunting where the gun might be exposed all day is where I see an issue. Or as a primary, or secondary optic on a rifle.

Just fog isn't an issue under a lot of scenarios but I have missed a shot at a squirrel because it was far enough away that my left eye couldn't see around the lense. I was able to wipe it and make the shot.

Up close its not an issue

Thanks for the update..
Winter here can be brutal on all things
So just trying to get an idea what may be instore for me..

I went to highschool in the quad cities. It's colder out there but wetter here. That transition rain/sleet/snow is the shit

Read the Sage Dynamics white paper. And well it changes everything. Very informative I definitely will be looking into putting an RMR on at least one of my pistols

I have a gen 5 glock 19 with a vortex viper on it. I have not shot it much yet. I have been working on my dry fire and presentation at home for now. So I am no high speed red dot shooter at all. But that is because I have not done my part yet to get the skill to enjoy the benefits. The red dot is the future for pistols to an extent, especially for me due to my eyesight failing. I can see law enforcement going to it very fast on a bigger level. I have a m&p compact that I can shoot very well that I love and can survive fine as is with irons. But the pros of a red dot are undeniable for a lot of shooters. I do understand it is not for everyone and that is ok. Use what works for you. If iron sights work, keep shooting and enjoy your choice. Same for red dots. There is enough info out there and plenty of places to try something out before you make up your mind. Go with what works for you. Practice is the key to your final decision though

what about the case of RDS at night when you might be using a flash light or WML?   would it be washed out?

Not in my experience.

In my experience, the dot on an auto adjusting RMR is completely unusable in complete darkness with a white light.

Indoors or outdoors?

Ived tested it indoors with a tlr1-hl 800 L and it works

This has been my experience as well with a RMR RM01 Type 1 Auto Adjust 3.25 MOA dot.

It is a non issue with my RMR RM06 Type 2 Adjustable 3.25 MOA dot.

The RM01 cannot pick up light that is "away" from the optic. What happens is the dot adjusts to the lowest setting (essentially a night vision setting) due to their being little to no light. When a WML is activated, the optic does not pick up the light, because it is not illuminating the light sensor and the optic does not adjust. You are essentially left with no dot.

The difference is that you can adjust the brightness with a RM06 to make it a non issue. Caveat, with the Type 2 RM06, it will revert back to auto-adjust after no adjustment activity for 16.5 hours. So confirm your settings before you put your gun in the holster.

Ok, so I’m just getting this MRDS arena.   My current plan is to install a Venom or FF3 in a dovetail mount to try it out as I’m reluctant to permanently alter the gun (SR1911) or make a large investment until I’m fully convinced.  I’ve had people tell me that it should give me a good taste of what I’m in for.

Like this:


Even if I don’t like it, the low cost sight would eventually go on a different gun anyway so I would only be out the cost of the mount for the trial period.

Any opinions on that?

I bought a used, optic ready M&P (CORE) for the same reason.  Ran it for 1,000 rounds to get a feel for the RMR.  Shortly thereafter I milled my primary and have not looked back.

Using a dovetail mount isn't optimal but should work well enough to give you the feel for using the dot.  Good luck with your decision.

I noticed an immediate improvement in my shooting. For equivalent time, I'm more accurate with the dot; for equivalent accuracy, I'm much faster with the dot. My accuracy (slow fire or otherwise) beyond 3-5 yards is greatly improved with the dot.  It's much easier to track and reacquire the dot between shots and I'm finally able to call a fair number of my shots as I'm shooting them.

I think part of it is eyesight. Most people seem to complain that they can no longer focus clearly on the front sight; I can, but when I do the target gets so blurry I can't pick out an aiming point.  An index card at 25 yards is a faint fuzzy spot. This wasn't as big an issue 10 years ago when I was shooting. 22 rifles with irons a lot; there was a blur of course but I could still make out a target.  Not so any more.

I think I also have trouble maintaining perfect sight alignment; it looks fine to me but I think they are drifting some anyway.  The dot makes all of the visual stuff moot and all but eliminates it as a causal factor in my shooting.

If you are close enough to your intended target for your
weapon light to wash out the dot, you are close enough
that you won't need the dot, or iron sights.

That being said, I have tritium iron sights on all of
my red dotted hand guns and long guns.

Great discussion here in this thread, and Aaron at SD
is a well articulated young man.

John

The dot washing out is a realistic issue with the auto-adjust models of the RMR. The optic will not pick up the light being emitted beyond the optic and will wash out the dim dot. However, you should have backup irons on a defensive gun and this makes it kind of a non-issue. You could also get with the program and put an adjustable dot on your pistol.

I am solidly in the RMR camp.  Over a year ago(December 17') I had my primary 19 milled for an RMR.  I have made a conscious effort to carry the dot daily, shoot Carry Optics division, and practice with my carry gun weekly or bi weekly.  
In that time I have discovered:

1.  My presentation of the pistol was garbage.  While I thought I was bringing the gun up flat I was not.  My muzzle was way high and my eyes were just making the adjustment before I noticed it.
2.  My trigger pull needed work.  Again my accuracy was good enough that I didn't notice until i saw the dot move.

3.  It is way easier to make hits at distance consistently.  Granted I don't know what situations I may be in but its handy just the same to have consistent accuracy at 100+.(this is really handy if you bum around a farm with a carry gun. Offing a sick raccoon in a field is easy)
4.  Once I fixed my trigger and presentation issues I am as fast but more accurate at all distances.
5.  Because of the reasons above my Iron sight shooting has improved as well.  Its shown me weaknesses that needed remedying. (I still have excellent eyesight so this is not an issue)

My though is if there was no cost of entry there would be far less opposition.

Case in point: My father is an extremely experienced pistol user.  He is retired LEO and a firearms instructor.  After much skepticism he recently mounted a Vortex dot on a dovetail sight.  He found the his accuracy drastically improved at distance because eyesight was taken out of the picture and trigger press issues were shown.

I tried 5 or 6 RMRs on a G19 over the course of a year, about 6 years ago, but they weren't ready for prime time. I'd like to think the gen2s and "SOCOM" are good to go; reading on here was the first time I'd heard a gen2 went down.

Anyway. I was slower inside of 1y to 5 yards, about the same at 7-10 yards (accuracy and speed), and the RMRs would win at 25Y on accuracy but tie on speed, or win on speed and tie on accuracy. I only compared at 50Y once, and I had a perfect aiming point for the G19 sights--at the BOTTOM of the torso, where it an the board holding it up crossed (which means the gun was shooting 6-9 inches HIGH, despite the bullet--AE 124gr--dropping like 1.5-2 inches...no one could ever explain it to me, but others have said they've experienced the same thing). The RMR was a tie, and I don't know about accuracy, since the steel was all marked up. If I'd had to transition, the RMR would win.

I decided I didn't need a MRDS since most encounters are pretty close. And then I thought about trying to get a sight picture on a shooter, at 25-30Y, in a dark theater who was partially obscured by smoke and muzzle-flashes. A green laser might work though it's not optimal (to show where I am). So it's been 6-7 years and I'm back to looking at MRDSs.

Oddly, I've heard a lot from competition shooter friends that they trusted their non-RMR red dots (Burris FF 3s and other brands...even J-Points) more than the RMR, though it's definitely the toughest as far as drop-tests. Even one of the more famous guys who does milling wrote about it on a forum.

The only serious competition guy I know is currently using a SHIELD RMS (though he might be sponsored) on a G34; he was the first guy I ever saw use green fiber optics, but he consistently halved everyone else times on the local "practice night". He confirmed SHOT SHOW info that the SHIELDS available now have a much tougher anti-scratch coating on the lens, and they now do a $50 lens replacement whenever you want. He recommended I get the RMS-C (compact) or RMS-W (waterproof) for a CCW. I ordered the C and also an ACRO P1...the latter would look ridiculous on a G43X, but if it works, it works. I want to see if the "tube" helps me align the sight even faster.

For practice, I draw the gun and aim at something with my eyes closed. Then I open them. If I can see the dot, it's a success--I usually can. When I can't, I focus on slowly moving the front sight up or down (usually down) until I see the dot, hold that position, memorize my wrists angles and how where my thumbs are pointing in regards to the target, etc...then do it again. I'm at like 3/4ths to 4/5ths good presentations after a few days.

**My biggest issue is astigmatism, so I'm going to take the fuzzy-dot to the optometrist and ask that we get it looking like a precise-dot.

Great write up. Thanks for detailing your findings.

John

Started my own thread.

I just got my pistol back this afternoon from RMR milling, and it's night and day for me. It definitely highlights my trigger technique and where I need to improve, and right now I'm definitely shooting slower than I used to with irons...but controlled aim is FAR more accurate for me than my original three-dot iron sights, I'm smacking my steel targets from about twice the distance I could before. I'm 100% sold on pistol optics and all my fighting pistols are going to wear them from now on.

The trigger was the first thing i noticed when I started with pistol optics a few years ago as well. You can tell when you pull shots much easier, then identify and correct. Soon you’ll have optics on all of them. Except maybe one.... then you’ll put one on it too.

I bit the bullet today.  Have a g19 rmr cut slide coming in this week.   So I ordered up an rmr for it.  I'm excited to put in the work.  I know how well red dots are on rifles so I'm anxious to try them on pistols.  I'm also excited to see what flaws I have in presentation and fix those.

So after a few months of on-and-off practice and range sessions, I instantly pick up the dot about 19 out of 20 times when drawing.

Time to first shot has not substantially improved, nor has slow-fire accuracy, but there has been a huge reduction in follow-up shot time, especially when engaging multiple targets.

I think I’m on the right track.  Next is concealment testing.  I like using a tucked in shirt (King Tuk, Supertuck) so this could get interesting with the additional height.

I EDC a G19.5 MOS with RMR06.

I have 5k rounds through the gun in the last 7 months.

I think it’s absolutely awesome. MRDS equipped pistols are definitely the way of the future and are worth it.

People who have stated they aren’t faster with them don’t have a high round count with them or aren’t training correctly / using the dot properly.

It is faster for everyone. I have yet to teach someone who isn’t faster. When you “fish” for the dot, you’re not aiming correctly. If you shoot a lot of different pistols, such as M&P’s, glocks, 1911, revolvers etc., each have different grip angles along with different draw strokes. you’re not gonna be proficient with your glock equipped RMR If you’re shooting tons of different guns all the time.

It’s all about the draw stroke, knowing how to properly aim with an MRDS, and grip. People with less than 1,000-1,500 rds through there MRDS makes me cautious. There’s no way to formulate a good opinion on a low round count through an entirely new aiming system.

I didn’t carry my RMR equipped Glock 19 until I felt comfortable with it, which was about 3k rds. Now it’s like riding a bike. And out of all my guns it’s my favorite and most fun to shoot.

Great feedback guys. Hoping this thread doesn't get archived.

I posted in another thread about purchasing an SRO.  It's way faster to pick up vs the RMR.  You can argue duty carry all you want, but for regular guys carry concealed, its a game changer imo.  
I have my slide getting cerakoted atm, but once I get it back and run more rounds through it, I'll be carrying it.

It’s not too big for CCW?

What is the reciprocating mount issue?  I have MRD’s on 11 of my semi-autos (22’s, 9mm’s, .357, 45ACP’s, and a 50GI) and all but two are slide mounted.  None of my MRD’s have ever come loose and all hold zero so I am not sure what the reciprocating slide mounted issue is?  I have heard people say you loose the dot when the slide is in motion.............NEWS FLASH the open sights are slide mounted as well so for that micro second of recoil you loose sight of the irons as well.

Then again I am not entirely sure what the mount issue is???

No, because all you need to do is put the dot on target.  With irons, yes you see the front sight maybe as quickly, however you need to have the same amount of daylight right and left between the front and rear sight AND the front sight needs to sit at the same height as the rear sight.  If daylight and height are not right your POI will not match your POA.

There is no mount issue. Some will say the Glock MOS is not as good as a milled solution, however if installed right there should be no issue. Take a look at the RMR testing videos on YouTube done by Aaron at Sage Dynamics, he beats the snot out of them and they stay mounted and just keep on working.

Nope.  It's not much taller.  It's just longer and that's not the hard part to conceal.