I am close to having an RMR installed on my EDC M&P 2.0 compact, but I continue to have this nagging question in the back of my mind.

In a real world defensive handgun situation, what real benefit will an RMR provide over a good set of conventional sights?

I figure that any situation that I feel justified in drawing my weapon will be at relatively close range, say 7 to 10 yards. Anything much further and I figure I should be trying my best to get the hell out of there and avoid a confrontation. I don't really see an obvious need for having to make a 25 or 50 yard shot.

I am certainly not a defensive handgun expert and not trying to denegrate using an RMR on a pistol. Honestly,  maybe I am just needing a little more information to help me make the leap.

What do those of you in the know have to say regarding my question? I'm sure I'm completely overlooking something.

Thank You.

It's FAST......Easier to acquire the red dot vs the front sight....

Or, that's like my opinion....

Yes, and if you need to make a more precise shot fast.

OK, I get that. But assuming someone spends a good deal of time training with either the RMR or standard sights, how much faster is the shooter actually going to be?

How long is a walmart aisle where you live?

Can you hit a rifle wielding hostile at that distance with your EDC?

Would a RMR help you make that shot?

I decided that the RMR isn't right for me, but it greatly helped my father.

More good feedback, but at 7 to 10 yards shouldn't I be as accurate as necessary with iron sights?

What did occur to me while I answered this is, what if I was defending against multiple attackers? Seems the red dot would provide faster more accurate shots in that instance.

So you are saying that someone older with poorer eyesight would benefit? That would include me because I am older and my eyesight certainly is not what it once was. That's a good point in favor of the red dot.

All things being equal, a dot is theoretically faster than irons - just one thing to align (a dot) vs two (front and rear irons).

That said, you have to practice with it, if your fundamentals aren't up to par, it won't make a meaningful difference. The indian vs  the arrow and all that jazz.

Ability to target focus. Even if you go full tunnel vision looking at the target with proper fundamentals the dot will likely still appear while the irons are less likely to appear.

If you are starting to have a hard time focusing on that front sight having a red dot may make a massive difference.

Also the dot can be extremely helpful in diagnosing issues in your trigger pull.  You can watch the dot move as you press the trigger.

Your crystal ball doesn't work any better than mine does so you really have no idea what you might need to use your pistol for.
Here's a real world example, you see a 5 year old backed up to a fence, squared off with two dangerous dogs, one has blood on it's muzzle, outside that magical 7-10 yards.

I'm getting some good feedback from you guys. You're right in that I probably can't imagine all the scenarios one might encounter. And some of those I would probably run toward instead of away from.

I can also attest to the difficulty sometimes in obtaining a good sight picture due to aging eyes. I guess I feel fairly confident of being able to accurately place shots at defensive distances due to lots of range time, but it sounds like the red dot would only make that easier, with plenty of range time of course.

They never helped me at all. I tried them never added any speed.  Maybe at 100 years i would be more accurate.  Only shot my pistol at 50 and closer at which they do nothing for me.

If you are currently decent at drawing from the holster and not having to adjust the pistol for sight alignment, then putting a red dot on it will make it so that on that same draw, instead of putting any focus on your firearm for sight alignment, you would be looking at the threat the whole time, and you will see a red dot on that person. wherever the red dot is, is where a bullet will be. Because your point of aim is a lightsource, you don't need to focus your eyes away from what you are aiming at , at all. If you don't like it, just put a plate on your slide and go back to irons, simple as that. and ideally with a red dot you shouldn't be trying to align the iron with the dot at all but some people have trouble getting past that and slows them down.

they allow you to be faster and more accurate at the expense of size, complication, and training. If you shoot irons you need to adapt and train for the dot, since it's a different idea. I had 2 pistols with RMRs, but did not devote the time to them that I should have. So I found I was slower than without. However, now I know what they are capable of I wouldn't hesitate to use one, and I'm shopping for a deal. had other stuff come up in the mean time so it wasn't a priority.

RMRs are faster. look at competition shooting. in the anything goes division, everyone that wins has dots. most have comps. no doubt it is faster. And part of the reason I didn't switch was at the time it would bump me into a division I didn't want to compete in. that's less of a factor now.

your ideas about carry are different than mine, as your life situation is different from mine. when I was younger and single I carried an LCP because if it wasn't in my face it wasn't my problem. I could run away with no major issue. When I got married I realized it wasn't just about me, and I was no longer able to just run. I was as fast as my wife, who only ever wears flip flops, and upgraded to a shield. Now she's pregnant and I have a 3 year old. Not only did I lose the option of running at all, but I want something that I can make good hits with at speed and distance. I live in Texas and our stores are big. Tom Thumb isles are up 40 yards long. so now it's a 1911 full size or an M&P 2.0c. Either way, longer sight radius, more rounds, more stability, more of a pain in the ass to carry.

A red dot is a way to up the capability of a pistol. making reliable hits to 50-100 yards puts you in PCC territory with something that can live on a belt instead of in a bag. shit, I think I talked myself into one....

@KTM300XCW

Earlier this year I started to carry a G19 with an RM01 type 2.  I also shot it in a local pistol match a few times and did well with it.  My thoughts:

- It won't make a bad shooter good, but it can help a good shooter shoot better.  If you jerk the trigger, you'll still jerk the trigger.  If you have a poor draw, you'll still have a poor draw.  If you can't shoot fast and accurately with irons, an RMR won't fix that.  In fact, it may make you slower.  Any imperfection in your grip, sight picture, trigger control will appear exaggerated with a red dot. If you can draw your pistol with eyes closed and when you open your sights are lined up 8 out of 10 times, you're ready for a red dot.  I have also found I shoot irons better now after shooting a red dot for a bit, as its forced me to shore up areas where I was slacking.

- I was a resistor to adding a red dot for some of the reasons you mentioned, mainly because the practical distance for a CCW is 0-7 yards.  However, as others have mentioned it lets you focus on the target instead of the sights, and that's a pretty big deal.

- It's much easier to shoot more accurately &/or accurately and faster at any distance.  If you have an inconsistent draw - you'll see people fishing for the dot when the target is a couple yards away.  That is not the RMRs fault, but it is where most people get off the band wagon instead of sticking with it.

I was out at the land over thanksgiving and was doing this drill with the rifle and decided to try it with the G19 + rmr a few times.  Did it a few times in 7 second range with alpha's / hit's on steel before moving on to work on other stuff.  That steel plate an A/B zone with about an inch of C zone set out at 100 yards (measured with a tape wheel).  I can do this with irons too, just slower and with no info on the target other than it's fuzzy and white with irons focus.  FWIW I am ~ 8 weeks out of rotator cuff surgery too.

2 alpha @ 5 y; 2 hits at 100 y



- I've had to return both type 1 and type 2 RMRs, but RMRs are the best option available right now for CCW.  And Trijicon took care of the issues.  Personally, I think the RM01 type 2 is the best for CCW given that the dots can tend to bloom a bit so the 3.25 MOA is definitely not too small, the type 2 adjustable RMRs automatically default back into auto-adjust mode after 16 hours anyways, they are cheaper than the RM06, and I just don't see myself fooling with buttons moving between light and darkness, turning on weapon lights, etc.  The Auto Adjust version works really well from my experience and there is less to go wrong compared to the adjustable model.  In other words - if you pull your RMR CCW type 2 out of your holster/safe in a hurry, it's likely gonna be in Auto adjust mode anyways.

I "fought" the idea and expense for years.  Then I did my first one (9MM P09) and was so impressed I shipped my EDC P07 .40 S&W) off for the same treatment the very next week.

Advantages?
1) 24 hrs. a day 365 days a year I can see the illuminated dot (DI RMR).
2) I only have to align a dot on the target and squeeze the trigger - I don't have to align the front sight with the rear sight and keep them aligned while I align the front sight with the target.
3) I'm 61, if I lose my glasses I can no longer see the front sight.  With the amber dot I can still see a fuzzy amber dot and align it with the target.
4) the dot does not have to be centered in the lens to hit the target - if the dot is off to the left/right, top or bottom the bullet still hits the target if the dot is on the target (I've tried it, it works, put the dot on the target and hit it).
5) Self confidence increase because I know I can see that amber dot anytime, any lighting conditions, glasses or not

I will say that the DI models seem to work differently for different people.  My P09 has the green dot and I struggle to see it if I'm in low light and the target is in bright light.  I can see the amber dot fine even though it appears more dim than usual.  Some people report being able to see the green dot better under those same conditions.

My wife was so impressed with my .40 CZ I had the same thing (but with a DP Pro) done to her CZ75 Compact.

I will be getting a similar job done on my new XD .45 acp 5" Tactical this winter (after Christmas is paid for).  At some point I'll probably get my black P01 Omega done as well.

RMRs are not that helpful out to distance. For one, they are about 6moa dots. For another, other fundamentals besides sight alignment and picture play a bugger role, especially trigger control.

If that's your experience then it's the opposite of mine, and several people I know.
They are incredibly helpful to me at mid to longer handgun ranges.

This made me laugh because that is what I would probably want to do.

Lots of great points Gentlemen.

Im passing on any RDS until handguns evolve to solve the reciprocating mount issue. I was impressed with the 100 yard capability they gave me.

The two biggest "real world benefits" for a red dot on an edc pistol, in my opinion, are: 1) that the dot is easier to pick up than is the front sight (especially for failing eyesight) and, 2) perfect alignment is easier to attain.  By perfect alignment I mean, as referenced by another poster, the red dot only needs to be "on target" and does not have to be centered or aligned with another point of reference other than the desired target.  I think that red dots are the future of personal defense handguns.

I've noticed in various training classes that the red dot really shines in unconventional shooting positions, in and around vehicles, barricades...etc...where it would be difficult to get a perfect sight alignment with irons.

I'll add that they "are about 6moa", IF, that's what you buy. I've never used a 6mm but have used 3.25mm and looked thru a 2mm.
Everyone that tried them was making long range hits that none of us could make with irons.
Bringing trigger control into a discussion of sights just seems odd. Of course trigger control matters but it's not what we're talking about.

They absolutely help at distance, that is where they have the most distinct advantage.  You focus on the target so it is as clear as your eyes allow instead of a sharp front sight and a blob at distance.

The other huge advantage is for people with difficulty shooting irons with both eyes open, you will have no problem shooting an RMR with both eyes open.

I disagree... to me that is the same thought process as folks use to say that operating the slide stop was a fine motor skill why not putting  the operation of the trigger into the same category....

I think the red dot has a better chance of getting lost if your pistol grip/presentation is less then perfect, while the irons can still be seen.

I'm 54 and I can see the front sight pretty decent, if anything, a red dot will be even closer to my eye then the front sight, making it less sharp, not more.

and then there is the KISS principle that will fall along the wayside with a electronic sight. where the emitter can be covered by dirt, dust, debris. water droplets...

Take a force on force class. “Front sight, front sight. Equal height, equal light” is great until someone is trying to shoot you. Even incoming sim rounds tend to mess up your perfect isosceles stance and solid front sight focus.

So you are saying a red dot helps in these situations?

Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics has a paper on this, it’s a study on MRDS for duty use. He has a chart showing recorded hits in force on force training, use them as data for your decision making process.

Attached File

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http://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/7dc128_c8da57977a8c4b53903192fa603fce6f.pdf

Well this thread is much more informative than the GD one...

Especially that last post with a link to some data beyond I shoot comp and after 10k rounds of practice my scores have improved.

I will not be putting a dot on my CCW for many reasons

1) I will not be taking long range shots with a 3" barrel 9mm

2) I will with a rifle and it has a dot sight..

3) I have done it and seen it done. Under stress people take time to aquire the dot. On a pistol it is just harder. Can you train to a level that you are extremely fast with a dot...Sure. Do i have the time and resources to do that ....No...I have trained myself to point shoot at close ranges..very close ranges. As in draw and shoot bad guy who is right in front of you ranges. Ranges that do not allow you the time to obtain a perfect stance draw extend aquire a dot and fire. I also have trained shooting accurately out to 50 yards with various handguns. I know my limits and refuse to take a shoot beyond those limits. I can hit you quickly with irons anywhere you are standing in the isle at the grocery store.

4) Today at the range after some shooting I perused the assortment of available dots...The one i would trust..670.00. Plus milling my slide..Plus ammo training with it..For what is a negligible advantage in most self defense scenarios. Not to mention the added bulk...Which for me is an issue. I simply do not conceal a handgun well on my frame.

Now hears the thing....

I would seriously consider putting one on a full size pistol. One carried in a good duty holster. IF i where in a career that required me to run towards the gunfire as part of my job description.

Or on a game gun...

Which is where most of these sights end up being used 95% of the time.

this is based off the little bit of research i have done. Your mileage obviously may vary

So far no one has convinced me of the  necessity of having a dot sight on a subcompact pistol carried concealed.

You make some good points, especially regarding a sub compact. However, I carry an M&P compact (G19 size) in summer and also carry a G20 when the weather is colder. I also do a lot of training/shooting and go through a lot of ammo. If the red dot will give me an advantage, which it seems to do based on many of the responses, then why not spend that time and ammo getting proficient with a system that will benefit me more than iron sights? For me the aging eye angle is a real positive point. Also, if I think there is enough advantage to shooting with a red dot, then $400-$500 is not that much in the scheme of things. That is why I wear a Shoei motorcycle helmet. All in all I am leaning towards getting an RMR but haven't done so yet. I have a feeling 10 years from now, everyone will be wearing an red dot of some sort.

I did say i would consider it on a full size pistol. A guy my size considers a G19 Full size by the way. A G17 i know is..I shot a P14 in some comps and would put one on it. If i had the funds to burn. But the ops question is on a pistol carried everyday. For me that's a G26 and i will not be putting a dot on it. I will continue to train with Irons. Perhaps if I carried a larger pistol differently it would provide much more of an advantage to have one. Currently I do not see the need.

I put an RMR on a G19 that I started out with as a range gun with the plan for it to become a CCW gun when I gained the ability to acquire the dot quickly.  I also spent a lot of time doing dry fire exercises with it learning to bring the gun to the right point of aim that the dot fell into my line of site.  Since it sits a little higher than standard sights it does take time to "get it".

I went through a few classes with it and used it at the range, total probably 2k rounds through it before I started carrying it....and can without a doubt say I'm now faster with the RMR than iron sights.  To me the pros outweigh the cons, but like all things it takes practice to make the most out of it.

Especially after a certain age.

Why are you using sights 7 to 10 yards if you don't need precision?

What I intended to say was shouldn't iron sights be as fast and as accurate as necessary to hit the vitals at 7-10 yards? Do I really need an optic to do that at that distance?

Look at the hit maps above.

Do you need it? No.

Can you be more effective? Yes

That's exactly my point.

It seems the real advantage is when the range extends out a bit. With that being the case..A longer sight radius would also help..So would a magnified optic..How long before we start putting 1x4 Stieners on Glock 17's? That way I could point shoot...UJse it as a red dot...Than flip it to 4 power and make that 75 yard shot on the hostage taker...

Here's a drill...Move to about 3 feet from your target..Now picture in your mind he is pulling out a knife and saying...Give me your wallet mother fucker.

Your first shot should come from where? Draw pivot your hand and shoot from the hip correct? That is where a red dot does you no good. Now at the range in your vid do this...Remember you are defensive shooting...As in your opponent pulls and either you see them pulling or you are being shot at or attacked in some way. Are you going to react exactly as you did in your video? I would say yes you will because thats how you train. Me having been shot at before  the first thing i do is move. Preferably behind cover. If no cover available I'm  still moving as i bring my weapon into play. Thats when i could see a dot possibly being an advantage maybe..But i also know as i type this and based on my time spent on the range shooting and moving that i can put shots center mass with irons pretty damn quick.

I remain unconvinced that in an actual violent confrontation at typical ranges..7  to 10 yards That a RDS will be of any great advantage.

Also a little off topic....But in your vidio you take a standard weaver stance...Do you wear armor? Because and correct me if im wrong....LEO do and that stance is taken among other reasons but one reason is. Their armor is on their chest. So if they take a round it will be in the vest. Me i don't wear armor all day every day....or any day...So I train to make myself a small moving target rather Than standing in place facing an opponent and exchange gunfire.

Just some thoughts based off my personnel experience combined with some professional training.....I'm positive someone will be along to point out my many flaws soon enough.

Your Input would be appreciated...@03RN

How much time have you spent shooting a pistol with an a red dot?  If the answer is none or not much then it’s not hard to imagine that you see no benefit in them.

I think the Walther PPS that comes with a RDS for $600ish is only the first of many carry guns with RDS we’ll see in the coming years. CZ’s new subcompact already milled for a RDS is another step in the right direction although I like that the Walther comes with the optic.

Surely small guns with their shorter sight radius will benefit as much or more than full size carry guns with RDS.

The idea of shooting while moving has been brought up and that is another huge strength of the RDS pistols, as long as the dot is on the target you’ll hit (with proper trigger control and so forth) even if the dot isn’t centered in the window. Shooting while moving is an argument for RDS not against.

Does a red dot on my rifle count? If so thousands of rounds ...I have noticed a fierce defense of them by the people who have invested the thousands of dollars it took to purchase and train with them....But that in of itself doesn't make me want to run out and take the plunge. To put one on a sub compact 9mm that I carry daily.

In case you missed it....I did say earlier I would consider it on a full size pistol and even more so on a game gun...Given the funds. But for now that is right i personally don't see the big advantage to them on a gun i carry every day.

RDS on handguns improve aimed fire. It's obviously not going to help if you're not aiming. Aiming increases the odds of hitting your target. In a scenario that requires shooting from retention it is encouraged to press out to where you can use your sights after the initial shots, and RDS increase your odds in getting hits after the initial unsighted fire.

Do you acknowledge the benefits of the RDS on the rifle?

RDS on a handgun give you the same benefits. Small handguns with short sight radius see the benefits more than full-sized guns.

Thousands? RMRs cost $350

Good info there..Short to the point and no doubt based on  an extensive amount of combat experience with a red dot equipped pistol. But for us civies who carry small pistols concealed and most likely will never encounter a threat farther than 10 yards away with our carry pistol at the mall or grocery store. Will they afford us ant real world advantage?

Yes i absolutely see the benefits of a red dot on my rifle...I also see the benefits of fighting with a rifle versus a sub compact 9mm. Now what i dont see is trying to place the sub compact pistol into the role of a rifle simply by using the same type of sight system

How often do you carry your rifle? Since I never carry a rifle unless I'm hunting I try to be more effective with what I do carry every day.