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Posted: 2/17/2022 4:05:21 PM EDT
So, after years of toting around full-sized handguns, I decided to re-visit some of the teeny tiny mouseguns I've had floating around in the safe for some years, specifically, my Beretta 950BS in .25 ACP.
Went to the range on Sunday, and ran a couple of magazines through the little booger, and found it to be a whole lot of fun to shoot, and surprisingly accurate if I minded my Ps and Qs. I was using Hornady defensive loads in it, and it cycled flawlessly, delivered more than acceptable accuracy at 7 yards, and ejected vigorously. All in all, I think this is as good a mousegun as you can get for the $175 I paid for it. I've given though to putting it into service as a deep concealment piece, especially for when I'm running or cycling, so I have a bit of research ahead of me in terms of finding a good carry solution for those situations. I will be sweating a lot, so I believe it is worth considering to have the blued finish re-done in something like NP3 or some other similar finish. The .25 ACP ain't exactly a powerhouse load, sure, but it IS better than a sharp stick, and a pistol this small can (obviously) be concealed far more readily than my Colt Rail Gun. TBH, I like these little guns, and have noted somewhat of a thriving collectors' market around them, so there's a definite fun aspect to this whole exercise as well. I just sealed the deal on a Galesi Model 503B, and plan to clean that one up and play with it as a companion piece to the Beretta. My girlfriend is required to dress in professional attire for her job, but she sometimes has to travel out of town to rural, isolated areas, so I think this little Beretta may be a deep concealment option for her on those occasions, once we determine what kind of defensive ammo it likes best. Anyone else into these little pocket rockets? |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 4:19:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: K1LLD33R]
[#1]
Ehh... No?
That S&W CSX in .30sc though, i would possibly call that a bare minimum of firepower IMO. That is if it didnt feel like a .357 airweight to shoot. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 4:36:02 PM EDT
[#2]
Have a KelTec .32 ACP as BUG in my blouse pocket now.
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Posted: 2/17/2022 4:42:37 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Have a KelTec .32 ACP as BUG in my blouse pocket now. I've heard good things about those, but never owned one. I do have a P3AT that I bought several years ago, but put away in the safe. My most powerful concealment piece is an old Diamondback DB9 that, despite the awful press coverage, runs like a scalded cat on Hornady 115 gr. XTPs. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 5:15:14 PM EDT
[#4]
I take that last back: I forgot about the AMT Backup 45 I just got a couple of weeks ago.
I plan to make that one more or less a project gun to see how well I can slick it up and make it sing. I'm looking at the backstrap to see how much "meat" there is, with an eye toward sculpting a "scallop" that will allow the thing to sit more comfortably in hand. That will necessitate custom grip panels, but my girlfriend is a pro wood finisher, and she can make damn near anything, so I think I'm covered there. I don't know why I'm on such a kick over what a lot of people consider shitty concealment guns lately, but I plan to have fun with the ones I have, and maybe learn a few things I didn't know before. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 6:13:41 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doubleclaw: I take that last back: I forgot about the AMT Backup 45 I just got a couple of weeks ago. I plan to make that one more or less a project gun to see how well I can slick it up and make it sing. I'm looking at the backstrap to see how much "meat" there is, with an eye toward sculpting a "scallop" that will allow the thing to sit more comfortably in hand. That will necessitate custom grip panels, but my girlfriend is a pro wood finisher, and she can make damn near anything, so I think I'm covered there. I don't know why I'm on such a kick over what a lot of people consider shitty concealment guns lately, but I plan to have fun with the ones I have, and maybe learn a few things I didn't know before. Arthritis? |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 6:16:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: W_E_G]
[#6]
This too, shall pass.
Hopefully before you ever try to defend yourself with that thing. |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 6:25:47 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By W_E_G: This too, shall pass. Hopefully before you ever try to defend yourself with that thing. Almost all mouseguns, even .22 LR ones, will make a 12" blind hole through ballistic get. The error comes when folks want to load hollowpoints. IF the hollowpoint expands, then it won't go 12". Ergo, use FMJ or LRN from a mousegun, other than .380 & up. .32 ACP is a fun round to practice w/, very manageable, although I keep casting covetous eyes at the Ruger MAX .380. |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 2/17/2022 7:03:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Urimaginaryfrnd]
[#8]
https://www.hillpeoplegear.com/Products This is the carry solution you seek.
I have a Ruger LCPII in .22 that fills that gap. I never had a .25 but I've responded to calls where people were shot dead with them. Definitely beats a sharp stick! |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/17/2022 7:22:20 PM EDT
[#9]
I use an LCP 2 in 22lr as my pocket gun. It’s never jammed or failed to go boom. I had a Beretta 21A in 25acp years ago and it was reliable but my hands were a little big for it. I always carry FMJ or solid lead in mouse guns.
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Posted: 2/17/2022 7:53:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Code_Name_Eric]
[#10]
Back in the 80's I had a Beretta .25 ((Jetfire?) the one with the walnut grips and gold engraving), it was in my suit coat pocket when I got married in a Catholic church. Also had a standard blue .22 short (Minx?) for practice. Those were nice little mouse guns. They eventually went away to be replaced by a Walther PPK and TPH. I will say that those little Berettas were great--love the tip-up barrel. Carried them cocked and locked, of course.
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Posted: 2/17/2022 8:37:57 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Arthritis? Ha Ha ha. Smartass.  |
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Posted: 2/17/2022 9:42:33 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doubleclaw: Ha Ha ha. Smartass. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doubleclaw: Originally Posted By backbencher: Arthritis? Ha Ha ha. Smartass.  When I got my 9x19mm Ruger SP 101, I promptly got Hogues on it. Now it's fun. Before it was miserable. I'd like to shoot your AMT .45 Backup someday - once.
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IA, USA
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Posted: 2/18/2022 4:55:09 PM EDT
[#13]
Been on a small pistol kick the last couple of years.
Beretta 418 and 21A, both in 25 Beretta 81 in 32 Beretta 70S in 22 Mauser Hsc in 32 Sauer 38H in 32 Gabilondo Bufalo (yes one F) in 32 FEG AP 63 in 32 Walther PP Super in 9mm Ultra Taurus PT22 in 22 Have fun with all of them. Only downside has been finding mags. Still on the hunt for a Colt 1903. |
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Posted: 2/18/2022 7:49:02 PM EDT
[#14]
About the only way I'd get interested in .25 ACP is if someone has a rifle available in it.
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IL, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2022 1:04:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: VASCAR2]
[#15]
I think it was the Thompson LaGrade test that concluded if a bullet could penetrate a 1” pine board it could be lethal. A disgruntled Ex Boyfriend was caught spying on his Ex. Current boyfriend confronted Ex BF. Ex BF fired one round 25 ACP from stolen pistol, bullet penetrated storm door killing Ex GF’s Dad who was hit in the chest. The Ex BF is living the rest of his life incarcerated in state penal institution.
Don’t underestimate any firearm, it is all about bullet placement and penetration. I know of a individual who attempted suicide with a 25 ACP. He shot himself in the temple. He lost his vision in one eye but otherwise recovered. This individual was not incapacitated by the 25 ACP to the head. The 22 LR or 25 ACP are less powerful than the 32 ACP and I’d rather carry a 32. I even had a Jennings J-22 which was surprisingly reliable and accurate enough for a tiny 22 LR. I was always interested in mouse guns. I had a Chief of Police in small PD who went to the Office on Sunday mornings packing a Colt 1908 vest pocket hammerless 25 ACP in a little belt holster. I guess the Colt was good enough and fortunately he never had to use it, lol. |
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Posted: 2/19/2022 1:11:40 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Almost all mouseguns, even .22 LR ones, will make a 12" blind hole through ballistic get. The error comes when folks want to load hollowpoints. IF the hollowpoint expands, then it won't go 12". Ergo, use FMJ or LRN from a mousegun, other than .380 & up. .32 ACP is a fun round to practice w/, very manageable, although I keep casting covetous eyes at the Ruger MAX .380. This is a good post. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2022 9:43:22 PM EDT
[#17]
I sometimes carry a Keltec P32 with european FMJ (not sure what brand, but the bullet and primer have red sealant and the projectile is steel/silver), seems hotter than Winchester and Remington loads. My wife has a NAA Guardian in .32acp but hates the trigger and its unreliable so she never carries it. I've never had a malfunction with my Keltec P32, but I've only ran 4-5 boxes through it.
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WI, USA
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Posted: 2/22/2022 4:46:18 PM EDT
[#18]
I have quite a few "mouse guns" in my collection, but the two that see the most range time are a Galesi Model 6 in .32 ACP and a Galesi Model 9 in .25 ACP.
Gary |
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Posted: 2/23/2022 12:43:29 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Reloder56: I have quite a few "mouse guns" in my collection, but the two that see the most range time are a Galesi Model 6 in .32 ACP and a Galesi Model 9 in .25 ACP. Gary I did a deep cleaning on a Dickson Detective (Galesi 503B rebranded) that came in the shop I worked at. It was so brand new that it still had packing grease in the innards and throughout the barrel. The guy bought it in the 60s and never fired it in all the intervening time up to when I cleaned it up for him in 2025. Neat little popgun, and very nicely made for such a seemingly cheap handgun. I just plunked down $180 for a Galesi 503B on gunbroker, and looking forward to getting my hands on it. I like these little guns and the era of firearms manufacture they represent. I’d love to get my hands on a few more, like a Lignose, Walther or Menz, not to mention the French, Czech and Spanish knockoffs and such. It would be the making of a neat collection. |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 2/23/2022 1:30:08 AM EDT
[#20]
Beware little guns can be finicky don’t bet your life on them. Go with some small 9mm pistol there are quite a few to choose. Shoot it and make sure it works before carrying it.
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Posted: 2/23/2022 1:43:41 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 82ABN1: Beware little guns can be finicky don’t bet your life on them. Go with some small 9mm pistol there are quite a few to choose. Shoot it and make sure it works before carrying it. I've got a few hundred rounds through the KelTec P32. Other than hard European primers, I've not had any issues w/ it. The P32 is much smaller than my primary 26. |
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Posted: 2/23/2022 9:41:25 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 82ABN1: Beware little guns can be finicky don’t bet your life on them. Go with some small 9mm pistol there are quite a few to choose. Shoot it and make sure it works before carrying it. I carry an old "spilt rail" Colt Rail Gun IWB every day, and if I need a deep concealment piece, I go with my Diamondback DB9 or my Model 36 "no dash" Chief's Special. I like the mouseguns for the "neato" factor, but I don't think I'd make an EDC out of any of them unless I just had to. |
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Posted: 2/23/2022 10:56:51 AM EDT
[#23]
love my little mouse guns. only for range use as my LCP max is the smallest id trust for SD.
A few:        |
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Posted: 2/23/2022 1:01:27 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doubleclaw: I carry an old "spilt rail" Colt Rail Gun IWB every day, and if I need a deep concealment piece, I go with my Diamondback DB9 or my Model 36 "no dash" Chief's Special. I like the mouseguns for the "neato" factor, but I don't think I'd make an EDC out of any of them unless I just had to. I carry the P32 as a BUG to my 26. The P32 is so small, there's little reason to not carry it as well. |
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Posted: 3/6/2022 8:37:34 AM EDT
[#25]
Only owned one .25 ACP semi auto in the past and that was a nickeled Baby Browning, pre-68. Second .25 ACP was a Davis chromed derringer, that fell apart while shooting.
Smallest mouse gun is a 30 yo NAA Mini revolver in .22LR. Its my ENT gun as I shoot for the Eyes, Nose and Throat as that's where I practice putting them and only shoot LRN. Did have a Beretta 21A and 3032 Tomcat in the past. Don't consider the 7.65mm in the CZ50/PP as mouse guns as they are larger frames. CD |
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Posted: 3/11/2022 11:31:41 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Combat_Diver: Only owned one .25 ACP semi auto in the past and that was a nickeled Baby Browning, pre-68. Second .25 ACP was a Davis chromed derringer, that fell apart while shooting. Smallest mouse gun is a 30 yo NAA Mini revolver in .22LR. Its my ENT gun as I shoot for the Eyes, Nose and Throat as that's where I practice putting them and only shoot LRN. Did have a Beretta 21A and 3032 Tomcat in the past. Don't consider the 7.65mm in the CZ50/PP as mouse guns as they are larger frames. CD My dad used to carry an ENT gun. I asked him one day if a .22LR was "enough gun" and he answered, "it is if you can hit 'em in the eyeball with it." Before his eyes went south on him, I remember he was a fair to middlin' hand with a pistol. His older brother gave him his first pistol when he was eight years old, a little .22 short revolver, and he used to walk the woods around Lamar County, MS, shooting pine cones, birds and small game with it until he could just about do it in his sleep. I remember when I was just about four or five years old, we were fishing from a sandbar on the Pascagoula River, and I sat down on a piece of driftwood that tumbled out from under me, whereupon a decent-sized water moccasin came boiling out of the hole underneath it, sending me scrambling away from this pissed off serpent toward my dad, screaming bloody murder. He turned, whipped out a little .38 snubbie and popped the snake dead with the third round as it closed on us. As I thought about that in later years, I remembered that he used to scorn a two-handed hold, but that he instinctively went to it when he was shooting at the snake that day. Got my Galesi 503B a couple of days ago. About to order some internal springs for it from Wolff and take it to the range to check it out. I like these little guns. They have a neat mid-century modern "space gun" look to them. |
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Posted: 3/11/2022 6:26:11 PM EDT
[#27]
Today’s pocket dump. Galesi 503B, an old Camillus scout pattern and a few odds and ends.
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CT, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 7:29:57 PM EDT
[#28]
Idk why, but I've always loved the 25acp since I started shooting.
I currently own a 950BS (safety model) as well as a 21A. At some point, id love to find a nice VeloDog in 25acp. Idk why, but I always thought a revolver in 25acp would be so dang fun. |
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Posted: 3/30/2022 12:25:12 AM EDT
[#29]
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Posted: 8/4/2022 12:25:03 PM EDT
[#30]
I've carried a Seecamp .380 and an old Iver Johnson TP22, but not anywhere I expected to need a gun. The Seecamp is a quality piece and disappears in a front pocket holster.
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Posted: 9/26/2022 7:07:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Snaps]
[#31]
I really want a jetfire, one day I’ll find a good deal on one. I still have my little colt though
 Attached FileThey’re a ball to play with imo |
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Posted: 9/26/2022 7:44:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: grambosc]
[#32]
James liked his .25 cal Beretta, but Maj. Boothroyd did not.
Nice and light, in a lady's handbag No stopping power  Major Boothroyd and the new gun [James Bond Semi Essentials] Somehow a cal .30 Luger was so much more powerful, like a brick through a plate glass window. 
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Posted: 9/27/2022 11:29:41 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By grambosc: James liked his .25 cal Beretta, but Maj. Boothroyd did not. Nice and light, in a lady's handbag No stopping power  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYMUgkD0ttkSomehow a cal .30 Luger was so much more powerful, like a brick through a plate glass window. I liked the looks of the Beretta 418, but I did not like the aluminum striker assembly in it. The spring shroud cracked off of mine, and it was the devil’s own time trying to find a replacement for it. I think a steel part would have been a better choice for that model. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 11:38:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Z09SS]
[#34]
I collect 'em!
 I'm about through the readily available and affordable models... That pic ain't even half of 'em. They are better than a sharp stick. I carried an FIE Titan for years. With no permit, because may-issue was no-issue in Story County, Iowa. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 12:37:46 PM EDT
[#35]
Remember "Where Eagles Dare"
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Posted: 10/11/2022 11:25:31 PM EDT
[#36]
While it’s not really a “mouse gun,” per se, my Diamondback DB9 is sized similarly to my Kel-Tec P3AT, and rides just as well inside the waistband.
That’s my carry piece tonight in a somewhat non-permissive environment, and it’s a lot more comfy than the 5” government model I usually carry. I thought about sticking my Beretta 950BS in my sock, but the DB9 is a whole lot more gun for not a lot more size and weight. |
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Posted: 10/12/2022 8:44:20 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Combat_Diver: Remember "Where Eagles Dare" https://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/d/d3/Mary_Ure-BJ950.jpg/450px-Mary_Ure-BJ950.jpg Volfgang volfgang? Vasisityoudo? |
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Posted: 10/12/2022 11:37:46 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By meistermash: Volfgang volfgang? Vasisityoudo? That was The Dirty Dozen |
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Posted: 10/12/2022 4:48:47 PM EDT
[#39]
Well chit.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 10/12/2022 10:40:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JohnRippert]
[#40]
.22 Short is about the most mousey caliber I have owned. And a Astra Cub is a really nice platform for that caliber. Surprisingly accurate for the size as well. This target was 6rd at 20ft.
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Posted: 10/13/2022 12:06:17 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JohnRippert: .22 Short is about the most mousey caliber I have owned. And a Astra Cub is a really nice platform for that caliber. Surprisingly accurate for the size as well. This target was 6rd at 20ft. https://images2.imgbox.com/2f/35/kBwk33P7_o.jpg Nice shooting! |
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Posted: 10/13/2022 12:16:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Code_Name_Eric]
[#42]
Here's one that hasn't appeared in this thread yet. A Wilkinson Arms Sherry .22 LR. I picked one up at a gun show back in the late 80s/early 90s. It was a cool little gun, seemed quite well made. It's long gone, (and didn't work very well). I'd never seen one before and haven't seen one since.
 Attached FileEDIT: Image from Google. |
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USA
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Posted: 10/13/2022 1:15:25 PM EDT
[#43]
Claude Werner (AKA The Tactical Professor) is the goto for research and thinking on Miceguns .
A native Chicagoan who carried in a really non-permissive environment in the 70s and 80s, he had a white collar career after his military career. That gave him a decidedly Citizen CCW mindset that really separates him from the usual L.E. centric or SOF biased trainers of the last 2 decades. He was also an instructor at the famed Rogers Shooting School for years. Some podcasts he's appeared in of interest to this subject include Primary & Secondary episodes "Mouseguns", "Optimal is not universal" and "Maybe I was wrong about pocket guns" on Luckygunner. That interview actually spawned the Luckygunner Pocketgun series. The old Total Protection Interactive website(now sadly defunct) had a treasure trove of discussions with Werner, Southnarc, Cecil Burch, Darryl Bolke and many others. |
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Posted: 10/13/2022 1:41:02 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By feudist: Claude Werner (AKA The Tactical Professor) is the goto for research and thinking on Miceguns . A native Chicagoan who carried in a really non-permissive environment in the 70s and 80s, he had a white collar career after his military career. That gave him a decidedly Citizen CCW mindset that really separates him from the usual L.E. centric or SOF biased trainers of the last 2 decades. He was also an instructor at the famed Rogers Shooting School for years. Some podcasts he's appeared in of interest to this subject include Primary & Secondary episodes "Mouseguns", "Optimal is not universal" and "Maybe I was wrong about pocket guns" on Luckygunner. That interview actually spawned the Luckygunner Pocketgun series. The old Total Protection Interactive website(now sadly defunct) had a treasure trove of discussions with Werner, Southnarc, Cecil Burch, Darryl Bolke and many others. I’ve never seen any kind of established doctrine on the use of mouseguns, but given the low power, high concealability and small calibers, I deduced that these diminutive guns were made for more or less contact distance encounters, and that their use should not be limited to the techniques used on a square range or at a distance. Rather, my plan for the use of my 950BS is to apply it under a jawline, poke it into an eye socket or ear hole, or wherever I can get to in a scuffle, and let fly with it until the fight is over. No vital area is out of bounds - eyes, ears, noses, throats, balls, hip/knee/elbow joints or armpits. They’re not really suited to any other kind of use, as far as I can see. |
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Posted: 10/13/2022 2:19:12 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doubleclaw: I’ve never seen any kind of established doctrine on the use of mouseguns, but given the low power, high concealability and small calibers, I deduced that these diminutive guns were made for more or less contact distance encounters, and that their use should not be limited to the techniques used on a square range or at a distance. Rather, my plan for the use of my 950BS is to apply it under a jawline, poke it into an eye socket or ear hole, or wherever I can get to in a scuffle, and let fly with it until the fight is over. No vital area is out of bounds - eyes, ears, noses, throats, balls, hip/knee/elbow joints or armpits. They’re not really suited to any other kind of use, as far as I can see. I seem to recall a SOF article back in the day by Mike Echanis (SP?) about the use of mouseguns. I believe he was of the same opinion, under the jaw, eyes, ears, etc. |
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Posted: 10/13/2022 3:01:09 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doubleclaw: I've heard good things about those, but never owned one. I do have a P3AT that I bought several years ago, but put away in the safe. My most powerful concealment piece is an old Diamondback DB9 that, despite the awful press coverage, runs like a scalded cat on Hornady 115 gr. XTPs. The keltec works but is cheesy made like all their guns. They don’t do well with hollow points. The 32 really needs FMJ anyway. |
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Posted: 10/13/2022 8:46:12 PM EDT
[#47]
If you want to see a few oddball mouseguns, watch the Netflix series Babylon Berlin. I saw a Dreyse pistol, a Lignose and several other neat pieces in the show, plus there’s a lot of German titties, so that’s a plus.
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Posted: 10/13/2022 10:08:07 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doubleclaw: I’ve never seen any kind of established doctrine on the use of mouseguns, but given the low power, high concealability and small calibers, I deduced that these diminutive guns were made for more or less contact distance encounters, and that their use should not be limited to the techniques used on a square range or at a distance. Rather, my plan for the use of my 950BS is to apply it under a jawline, poke it into an eye socket or ear hole, or wherever I can get to in a scuffle, and let fly with it until the fight is over. No vital area is out of bounds - eyes, ears, noses, throats, balls, hip/knee/elbow joints or armpits. They’re not really suited to any other kind of use, as far as I can see. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doubleclaw: Originally Posted By feudist: Claude Werner (AKA The Tactical Professor) is the goto for research and thinking on Miceguns . A native Chicagoan who carried in a really non-permissive environment in the 70s and 80s, he had a white collar career after his military career. That gave him a decidedly Citizen CCW mindset that really separates him from the usual L.E. centric or SOF biased trainers of the last 2 decades. He was also an instructor at the famed Rogers Shooting School for years. Some podcasts he's appeared in of interest to this subject include Primary & Secondary episodes "Mouseguns", "Optimal is not universal" and "Maybe I was wrong about pocket guns" on Luckygunner. That interview actually spawned the Luckygunner Pocketgun series. The old Total Protection Interactive website(now sadly defunct) had a treasure trove of discussions with Werner, Southnarc, Cecil Burch, Darryl Bolke and many others. I’ve never seen any kind of established doctrine on the use of mouseguns, but given the low power, high concealability and small calibers, I deduced that these diminutive guns were made for more or less contact distance encounters, and that their use should not be limited to the techniques used on a square range or at a distance. Rather, my plan for the use of my 950BS is to apply it under a jawline, poke it into an eye socket or ear hole, or wherever I can get to in a scuffle, and let fly with it until the fight is over. No vital area is out of bounds - eyes, ears, noses, throats, balls, hip/knee/elbow joints or armpits. They’re not really suited to any other kind of use, as far as I can see. Mouseguns were a helluva lot more effective before the discovery of antibiotics. You might win the battle but die a painful death over the next couple of days. A lot of psychological stops just from the mousegun being produced. Today, a miscreant doesn't have much fear of the service pistol, the worst he expects is a colostomy bag. All small arms are variable length spears. The .22 LR, .22 WMR, .25 ACP, & .32 ACP are particularly thin spears. If you get into contact range, you will lower the miscreant's blood pressure much faster with a proper knife than a mousegun. Preferably you've used the mousegun before the fight closed to contact distance, which would mean the mousegun hits did not produce a psychological stop, they did not penetrate into a vital part of the nervous system, and it will be a long time before the minor wounds inflicted on the miscreant lower his blood pressure significantly. Then it's time for the knife, presuming that you would have already run if you could before using the mousegun. |
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Posted: 10/13/2022 10:59:01 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Mouseguns were a helluva lot more effective before the discovery of antibiotics. You might win the battle but die a painful death over the next couple of days. A lot of psychological stops just from the mousegun being produced. Today, a miscreant doesn't have much fear of the service pistol, the worst he expects is a colostomy bag. All small arms are variable length spears. The .22 LR, .22 WMR, .25 ACP, & .32 ACP are particularly thin spears. If you get into contact range, you will lower the miscreant's blood pressure much faster with a proper knife than a mousegun. Preferably you've used the mousegun before the fight closed to contact distance, which would mean the mousegun hits did not produce a psychological stop, they did not penetrate into a vital part of the nervous system, and it will be a long time before the minor wounds inflicted on the miscreant lower his blood pressure significantly. Then it's time for the knife, presuming that you would have already run if you could before using the mousegun. If I’m using my mousegun, it’s because my .45 either ran out of ammo or quit working, neither of which is very likely in my particular case. If I did ever have to use one of the little guns, I’d definitely have a knife in the other hand, namely the Spyderco Street Bowie my son sent me when I was in Afghanistan back in 2020. It’s razor sharp, light and very lively in the hand, and long enough to do some damage. There again, all of this is assuming there is literally no way out, and fight is the only option. In that event, I’m gonna go shit slinging monkey crazy with every weapon I have until the fight is done one way or the other. |
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Posted: 10/13/2022 11:37:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: feudist]
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doubleclaw: I've never seen any kind of established doctrine on the use of mouseguns, but given the low power, high concealability and small calibers, I deduced that these diminutive guns were made for more or less contact distance encounters, and that their use should not be limited to the techniques used on a square range or at a distance. Rather, my plan for the use of my 950BS is to apply it under a jawline, poke it into an eye socket or ear hole, or wherever I can get to in a scuffle, and let fly with it until the fight is over. No vital area is out of bounds - eyes, ears, noses, throats, balls, hip/knee/elbow joints or armpits. They're not really suited to any other kind of use, as far as I can see. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doubleclaw: Originally Posted By feudist: Claude Werner (AKA The Tactical Professor) is the goto for research and thinking on Miceguns . A native Chicagoan who carried in a really non-permissive environment in the 70s and 80s, he had a white collar career after his military career. That gave him a decidedly Citizen CCW mindset that really separates him from the usual L.E. centric or SOF biased trainers of the last 2 decades. He was also an instructor at the famed Rogers Shooting School for years. Some podcasts he's appeared in of interest to this subject include Primary & Secondary episodes "Mouseguns", "Optimal is not universal" and "Maybe I was wrong about pocket guns" on Luckygunner. That interview actually spawned the Luckygunner Pocketgun series. The old Total Protection Interactive website(now sadly defunct) had a treasure trove of discussions with Werner, Southnarc, Cecil Burch, Darryl Bolke and many others. I've never seen any kind of established doctrine on the use of mouseguns, but given the low power, high concealability and small calibers, I deduced that these diminutive guns were made for more or less contact distance encounters, and that their use should not be limited to the techniques used on a square range or at a distance. Rather, my plan for the use of my 950BS is to apply it under a jawline, poke it into an eye socket or ear hole, or wherever I can get to in a scuffle, and let fly with it until the fight is over. No vital area is out of bounds - eyes, ears, noses, throats, balls, hip/knee/elbow joints or armpits. They're not really suited to any other kind of use, as far as I can see. The bigger problem is the lack of practice most people apply to them. Either they bought the gun as a rabbit's foot, or they practice with their service sized weapons and just drop the mousegun into a pocket every so often for a "Trip to the store". That was me until I retired from L.E. I carried a service pistol on and off duty for 32 years and did 95% of my practice with it. Retiring into the so-called "Snubby Lifestyle" as Bolke puts it, I have begun shooting little guns as seriously as I did my Glock 19. They are their own thing. Drawing from a pocket isn't the same as drawing from your belt. Manipulations are very different. There are tactics you can use for counter-robbery that you can't with full sized guns. For the last 6 months I've been shooting benchmark drills like Draw Pairs, the Bill, FTS, 4 Aces, etc on a timer and tracking the results. Emphasizing the accuracy standard of a B-8 Black I've been building proficiency that simply wasn't there without deliberate practice. Right now-on demand, from "Covered Low Ready", ie, hand on gun in pocket, I can place 2 rounds in the black at 5 yards in .8 seconds. That's with my .22 LCP2. I've corresponded with guys who can do it in .6 at 7 yards on a 3x5 card with a .380. With a completely non-telegraphed draw that's about as much concentrated violent surprise as you can get short of a Claymore initiated ambush. |
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