***Note for those with short attention spans: the following is word-heavy. With that said, let’s begin...

Introduction:

For as long as I’ve been into guns and shooting the bulk of my focus has been fairly evenly divided into two distinct categories of interest; The first being cutting edge, state-of-the-art-and-industry, next evolution and even near-future weapon platforms. The second category, arguably diametrically opposed with the first, is that of unique and/or quirky detours from historical firearm development. Those classic antique guns that were oddities of their time have always grabbed my attention, peaked my interest, and invoked a strange obsession appropriate of the strange nature of the guns themselves.

To put it in different terms, I have a particular interest in firearms that could be fairly considered to be of the “Cyberpunk” and “Steampunk” genres, respectively.

As some of you may be aware I’ve spent the last few years dedicating my time and resources towards development of the first category with my Project Nemesis builds, modifying and upgrading the Sig P320 platform with just about every useful modern gadget, gizmo, and design philosophy in an attempt to maximize the mechanical performance potential of a modern duty pistol (to those interested, that thread can be found here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/Introducing-Project-Nemesis-The-P320-Roland-Special/14-182311/ ).



After many years, much effort and resources, and a lot of trial and error I’m extremely pleased with the culmination of my efforts which have resulted in a selection of some of the best shooting, most accurate, most broadly capable handguns I’ve ever shot or seen. While I have no allusions to the idea that my P320 shenanigans are or ever will be complete - there will always continue to be excellent new products and parts developed for the platform by the aftermarket that will help squeeze just a bit more performance out of the pistol - I have reached a point where I’m feeling the urge to shift my attention to the second category of interest. It’s now time for me to appreciate something old and odd.

Background: History of the Apache Pistols

(Note: While I’ve done my best to gather and organize the relevant historical context, I must confess I’m no history major and there’s a lot of conflicting information on this topic available to the casual researcher. I can’t vouch for the exact veracity of every claim, but this is the story as I’ve been able to decipher it)

Anyone with even a modicum of interest in historical firearms curiosa will have at one time or another stumbled across the enigmatic “Apache” pistol - an odd amalgamation of a pinfire pepperbox revolver, a small folding dagger, and a brutish looking set of brass knuckles, all rolled into one Transformers-esque package that could be easily slipped into the pocket of a pair of ye olde trousers or smoking jacket.



While many are likely familiar with the pistol in the video above, what many may not know is that this was just one of several variants of combination pistol/knuckleduster weapons (I prefer the term “Knuckleguns” when describing the category as a whole) that were manufactured in the mid to late 1800s.



The most well known variant of these pistols would be the Dolne pistol, named appropriately after Louis Dolne who designed this particular variant. Other examples of Knuckleguns of the same period are the Belgian Delhaxhe combination revolver designed by Joseph Delhaxhe, the Sure Defender, and the True Companion - among other even more obscure examples.


Dolne combination revolver - often referred to as “the” Apache pistol


Delhaxhe combination revolver


The Sure Defender


The True Companion

So where did the “Apache” name come from? While not likely used to refer to the family of Knuckleguns at the time of their manufacture or use, the Apache moniker became entangled with the Dolne revolver in particular and Knuckleguns as a whole due to their popularity among and association with members of the Parisian criminal gang “Les Apaches”, a “violent criminal underworld subculture of early 20th-century hooligans, night muggers, street gangs and other criminals,” who themselves acquired the Apache label for allegedly being “as violent and cruel as the American Apache Indians.” I’m sure their parents were very proud.

The Project: Turning a NAA Mini Revolver into a Steampunk Retro-Modern Knucklegun Homage

Finally, to the purpose of this thread! Ever since learning about the history of the Apache Knuckleguns many years ago I’ve wanted to try building one of my own. Recent events conspired and that dream is finally becoming a reality. My project will be based on the popular NAA Pug 22Mag mini revolver, in my case one of the limited-edition “The Dude” models of the Pug, of which only 2,000 were made.



While the Dolne revolver is the most popularly known Knucklegun variant, the intricacies of the folding grip mechanism make it less appealing to me from the viewpoints of cost, complexity, and practicality. Having to stop and reconfigure the weapon, folding/unfolding it in the middle of a deadly confrontation is a dubious manual of arms at best (Full Conceal anyone?). For that reason as well as my own personal preferences, my Knucklegun project will be loosely based on the Delhaxhe revolver variant, with the muzzle of the revolver fixed in the same orientation as the strike face of the impact surface of the knuckles. This affords practical use of the weapon as both a firearm and an impact tool from one universal, unchanging grip.





I’ve contacted and commissioned a maker of custom brass knuckles who is also familiar with NAA revolvers and the original Apache Knuckleguns (@billy_trident on Instagram) to design and fabricate a special set of four-finger brass knuckles that will attach to the frame of the Pug like a set of replacement grips, solidly integrating the revolver and the knuckles together. The index finger stall of the knuckles will act as the trigger guard, while the remaining stalls and palm brace will create a much more hand-filling and controllable grip for the revolver, ultimately making it far more shootable than the diminutive stock grip. The extra weight of the knuckles will act to absorb what little recoil there is from the 22Mag rounds, and of course will serve as a venerable close-contact impact weapon if and when the cylinder of the revolver runs dry.

The completed project will not be an exact duplicate of any of the historical Knucklegun variants but will encapsulate the same philosophy of use and spirit of the original designers with a discernibly “Steampunk” twist, and hopefully pay appropriate 21st Century tribute to one of the most curious branches of historical self defense firearms development.

For those who are interested feel free to follow along here, pictures and updates will be added as they happen. Any questions or comments are also always welcome!

Very cool project. I'm looking forward to see what you come up with.

One question. Would this become an NFA item such as an AOW?

Thanks for the heads up my friend.

I’m here.

ETA: OST
Remember that OP
On your Nemesis thread. I explained OST to you.we were the last two replying on the first page of your thread.


Wow, 2018 was a decent year.

Nothing that I have planned for this project would risk bumping it into an AOW or any other NFA category. Legally speaking, what I’m doing with this Pug would be no different than simply changing out the grip panels - it remains a normal handgun as far as ATF’s concerned

Aye! Thanks for following along here as well, hopefully it’ll be worth the attention when all done

subscribed

I'm happy I guessed the design on this puppy, I think it will be very bad-ass. I follow @Billy_trident on IG and he's got some really interesting stuff and his vibe is certainly unique. Can't want to see how this turns out and I know it won't be cheap!

Hopefully it meets expectations! From the moment I thought of how it could be done I knew Billy Trident was the perfect maker for the job, and I’m looking forward to seeing how he puts his unique style to work on solving the knuckle portion of the build. As soon as I get updates from him I’ll be sure to post them here.

In the meantime I’ll be diving into the Pug in stock form, familiarizing myself with it mechanically and shooting it as it came from the factory so as to have a solid basis of comparison once it’s been mutated into a modern Apache. Look for lots more pictures and info in this thread in the next few days as soon as it’s released from NICS backlog jail

Very cool project man, look forward to the results.

I had a similar idea sketched out awhile ago, to integrate a NAA PUG into a Trench Knife.

Holding the pistol, the knuckle guard is over the fingers and the blade is oriented downwards.

But the project never went past the crude sketch phase.

So props to you for actually making this a reality.

You mean like this kind of trench knife?



Mocking up the Pug against the CS Chaos knuckle guard was already among my top priorities as soon as I get the little blaster home The actual custom knuckle grips won’t be quite as bulky as the knuckle guard on the CS Chaos, but it’s the closest thing I currently have to a set of brass knuckles and should give a reasonable approximation for how it might end up looking

Or is it a gun with brass knuckles?

Either way, ‘tis awesome

Subscribed to watch this unfold.  Awesome idea, can't wait to see it actually come to life.

Much appreciated! There will be plenty to see as the project unfolds

My FFL hasn’t called back to say the NICS has processed but I’m hoping I can get it home some time tomorrow. Lots more pictures and initial impressions to get the ball rolling as soon as that happens

Thanks for the tag in your original GD post- I can’t wait to see your progress and how it turns out!

No problem!

Although for much of anything to unfold I’d need a gun to build on, and my FFL says they still haven’t got to mine in their queue...In case anyone needs a reminder, background checks are some unconstitutional guilty-until-proven-innocent bullshit

Well until I get the call on the Pug here’s some more detail pictures of some of the inspiration behind this build, the Delhaxhe combination revolver. Let’s take a closer look at some of the features of the original.

To begin, and as a special note to @spydercomonkey - it appears great minds think alike, because not only was the Delhaxhe a Knucklegun but similar to the Dolne and other Apache pistols it too was a true triple threat, incorporating a folding dagger blade that would be positioned downward like an ice pick when deployed:





Unique among the Apache variants, this configuration provided for practical use of all three weapons without requiring any manipulations to employ each respectively - shoot, punch, or stab at will all from one universal master grip. The folding blade is one feature that will be absent from my NAA modern interpretation, though potentially a “skull crusher” blunted point may be worked into the bottom of the knuckle grip to provide that little additional diversity of employment.

The frame of the original Delhaxhe was notably rather svelte, likely a design choice reflecting the style of the era and to aid in ease of carry:



My version will be a bit more on the chunky side out of necessity to accommodate the Pug frame, as well as personal preference - and the extra few ounces will certainly come in handy should the finished piece ever need to be employed as an “attitude adjuster”.

Here we see detail of the loading gate for the six shot 7mm pinfire cylinder:



To reload, a threaded ejector rod was stowed in the bottom of the frame behind the bottom three finger stalls:



The Apache Pug will retain the standard loading procedure from the stock revolver. No speed reloads are possible with either design, but then again that’s what the brass knuckles are intended to fill in for in both the classic and my modern interpretation.

And lastly the only picture I’ve yet found of someone actually holding the Delhaxhe in the manner it would have been used in combat, which serves to give us a rough estimate of overall scale of the piece:



To accommodate the length of both the 22WMR cylinder and the ~1” barrel length of the Pug my knuckle grip will extend somewhat further beyond the finger stalls, but no doubt Billy Trident’s skill and expertise in knuckle design and fabrication will keep it a compact enough package that it remains roughly able to slip into a pocket on a modern pair of pants or jacket.

My apologies to everyone for the delay in more substantial updates, but hopefully this helps to tide everyone over a bit longer. Of course any and all questions and comments are more than welcome so please feel free to keep them coming!

Thanks for the continual updates.

It will indeed “tide” me for now.

I do my best to keep these project threads as interesting and active as possible! Of course that’s much easier when there’s an actual gun to work on

Gentlemen, ladies, attack helicopters one and all - WE HAVE A PUG!



And what a fine specimen of a Pug it is:





Initial inspection indicates a flawless fit and finish as expected. The colors resulting from the case hardening on the frame are a bit muted in indoor/unnatural lighting but sometime tomorrow I’ll wipe it with some Rem oil and take it out into the sunlight to get a better sense of the pattern on the frame.



Looks like I snagged the Dude number 1,701 out of 2,000 made:



It feels solid in the hand and the hammer/trigger mechanism are some of the smoothest (if a bit heavy) I’ve ever felt on a revolver of any size. To say I’m quite pleased with my first thorough once-over would be an understatement. More once I’m done fondling it a bit more!

And life of Pugsly Von Knuckelduster begins.....

That it does! Speaking of which:



Broke the Pug down for further inspection this morning. Every part and piece is exquisitely machined and fitted together, and the takedown procedure for removing/installing the cylinder couldn’t be easier.



A very crude initial mock-up using my Cold Steel Chaos, which is the closest thing I currently own to a set of brass knuckles. Obviously the dimensions are a bit off as it wasn’t designed with the Pug in mind - the custom knuckle grips will much better match the curve of the Pug frame, but at least this is an idea of what it may end up looking like. And just for @spydercomonkey I turned the grip around:



You may have been onto something with the mini revolver trench knife good sir

One observation I can make from manipulating the Pug all of last night and nearly constantly since waking up today - I have smallish-medium sized hands and even my hands feel a bit cramped between the stock frame/trigger/hammer for cocking and firing. I can’t imagine how someone with larger hands would be able to comfortably or easily manipulate one of these pocket rockets in stock form.

I’ll certainly be pleased to have the larger grip and greater leverage of the four-finger knuckle once I get it. It won’t be nearly as easily concealable of course, but at only slightly larger than a standard set of brass knuckles it’ll still be perfectly pocketable and much, much more comfortable to manipulate. Thoughts on actually firing it in stock form will likely have to wait for a couple weeks until I’m fully recovered from surgery. By then I should also have the EVO320 back from my gunsmith and I’ll take the whole gang to the range to get some real trigger time in on both new platforms

Had an opportunity earlier in 2020 to get one.

Now kicking me arse for not doing so.

Happy to help.

I did a (extremely crude) mockup of how I had envisioned the basic knuckle grip to work.



The idea being that you would punch with your trigger finger behind the trigger, or could extend your finger up and over the trigger to fire it.

Option 2; this one is designed for you to keep your finger on the trigger when gripping the knuckles. This would make for a heavier knuckle design, and a bit more aesthetic.



There's likely a bunch more different ways to go about it, so experiment.

I do a lot of product design; I'd suggest you get a couple printout of pictures of the PUG, and then draw on the pictures different arrangements of how the knuckles could be configured.

Then cut out the drawing, trace it onto some cardboard, and cut out the carboard and see how it feels in the hand, and then adjust from there.

This offers a free and fast method of creating basic prototypes, and requires no special equipment. Once you have a good shape worked out, you'd want to work with someone who has CAD/Solidworks, and they can create a file for you to 3D print to further test and refine your design, before going the last step of having it CNC'd in metal.

@MRW @USMC_Dad - There are several more “The Dude” Pugs currently for sale on Gunbroker for very reasonable prices:

https://www.gunbroker.com/All/search?Keywords=NAA%20pug%20dude

Go on, you know you want - no, you know you NEED one...

I also made a crude sketch before going to Billy Trident to ask if he’d be able to make the knuckles for the project, just as a way to illustrate the overall concept. I’m deferring to him on the exact design of the knuckles, he’s made a living making custom knuckledusters for over 30 years and has a very strong understanding of how to work the ergonomics and shape for proper safety and comfort far better than I would ever be able to figure out - And he works with a partner who has a Masters degree in Mechanical Engineering who uses CAD to model the more complex pieces he makes, so the knuckle grip is certainly being handled by experts with the knowledge to do it right

Awesome. Yeah Billy Trident is the Tier 1 of knuckle design these days; you couldn't be in better hands.

Inspiring others to spend money on guns is my favorite pastime

My thoughts exactly.

For anyone who hasn’t seen his work before, I recommend perusing his Instagram profile to see what he can do. He’s an absolute artist with brass knuckles/occult artifacts/talismans, and a wealth of knowledge about historical and antique weapons of the impact variety. You’ll get a good sense of what the Pug has in store for it in the near future.

When he agreed to take on this project I made the request that he try to incorporate some of the aesthetic elements and feel of his BC41 knuckle design, obviously with whatever necessary modifications for integrating the revolver. I’m very anxious to see what he and his working partner come up with!

Well, I’ve just begun what’s likely to be the most challenging part of this project - finding ammo for it. Went to every online ammo retailer (except CTD, cause screw them) and set in-stock notifications for any reasonably priced 22WMR rounds I could find listed. I’ll make stops at local sporting goods stores this week while running other errands to check them as well but something tells me it’ll be a futile exercise...

Check your local Armslist; one option is offering to trade ammo you have for .22 WMR.

A major advantage of the NAA 5 shot removable cylinder is that 50 rounds will last awhile

That will be a nice perk! With my P320s I can easily go through 300+ rounds in an hour at the range, but I figure the limited capacity and slow reloading procedure on the Pug will help slow down and spread out the rounds per hour quite a bit more

I read a few places that it’s actually pretty much fine to shoot 22lr out of the magnum cylinder. You may get extra fouling (and I did) but no issues. It’s lower pressure than the mag and way cheaper.

Friends got me one as a going away gift and didn’t realize it was the mag. I was sitting on thousands of rounds of lr. Couple hundred rounds through my NAA and still on my first box of hornady 22mag

I've shot .22 LR through a WMR cylinder before on an Arminius revolver.  Didn't notice til I swapped cylinders and the .22 WMR wouldn't chamber in the .22 LR cylinder.

Yeah my understanding is it’s safe to shoot 22LR through the Magnum cylinders as well, but I’m not sure that helps me out much anyway - I don’t own any 22LR guns nor have a stockpile of 22LR ammo either, and I doubt I’ll be able to find any of it much easier. This is the first handgun I’ve owned in a long time that isn’t chambered in 9mm, or a P320 variant for that matter

Yeah, even .22WMR is all but impossible to find these days.  I searched everywhere just to find .22wmr shotshells with no luck until a friend deal popped up.  Of all the ammo to be hard to find I never expected .22wmr shotshells to be one.  

It's crazy out there.  Good luck on your search!

Some of it will pop up somewhere and all I need to last for a while is a couple hundred rounds. I imagine it’ll be easier to get when I do find it available somewhere, there should be significantly less demand/urgency for WMR than there will be for LR so it shouldn’t go out of stock quite as quickly.

As long as I find some before my next range trip in a couple weeks I’ll be able to do a shooting impressions and review on the Pug in stock form at that time. I’ll be interested to make the comparison between the stock configuration and after it’s got the knuckles installed

Doesn't NAA sell .22LR conversion cylinders for their little revolvers?  Or maybe that's only specific models?

In my mind, have a .22LR cylinder would be preferable for function testing and general range plinking over .22WMR.

I know some people do actually carry these NAA revolvers as hold out pieces, and I suppose in that sense maybe .22WMR makes sense (although with the tiny barrel length I don't know if it really makes a whole lot of difference).  But for messing around on the range, I'd much rather be shooting .22LR.  And the paper plates won't know the difference.

Back in the day, I had access to both, though the magnum barrel was slightly longer.  Not a large enough sample to tell much, but at least in my case, they both fired 40 grain bullets.  The magnum launched them at 940 FPS while the long rifle hit 800 FPS.

The magnum with its thicker jacket deformed less, and with its higher velocity tended to penetrate a bit better.  It also kicked more, (hard to hold onto those little things).

If terminal ballistics was the only consideration, I would go with the magnum.

Several of the Magnum variants do come with a second dedicated 22LR conversion cylinder, but this model of the Pug did not. This is from NAA’s website:



So it sounds like there is a process for purchasing a second cylinder of either 22Mag or 22LR, but I’d have to send the gun back to them in order to get it. That may be something I do in the future, but for now it seems it’s more hassle than it’d be worth

The peculiarities of ambidexterity never cease to amaze. After some experimental dryfire and handling it would seem my right hand is the more natural hand for manipulating and shooting the Pug, similar to my right-handed preference for knives. Which is odd considering any time I try to hold my P320s in my right hand it feels like trying to hold a gun with a deformed claw. Somehow my brain is naturally wired to manipulate primary weapons with my left (dominant) hand and backup-sized weapons with my right hand. Curiouser and curiouser...

Sounds perfect for shooting akimbo.

What did akimbo ever do to you?!?

Brother I would give you a box of ammo I just can’t figure out how to get it to you economically and Dam you for making me wanna try this me self

I’m not sorry

I’ll be interested to see if the larger grip changes the hand preference or not. Obviously I can hold the Pug in either hand, but for now at least it seems manipulations are easier done with my right hand

That joke is terrible but then it made me laugh so.....i dunno.

Score! Snagged some of the good stuff for a decent price. I’ll keep looking for some slightly cheaper range ammo elsewhere but at least I’ve got a start for now

I have doubts about hollow points out of a short bbl revolver.  I'd prefer FMJ.