Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Posted: 6/26/2022 10:03:07 PM EDT
Is this a magazine geometry problem? Do I need to reprofile the barrel? I get this from the first round after a slide lock reload using the slide lock to release. Wilson 47d, Wilson etm, and Mccormick rpm 10rd mags do the same thing.

The pictures I took do not have a firing pin, spring or extractor. Bullets are pushed back and the cases have a dent/scratch as pictured.

Attachment Attached File


Attachment Attached File



Link Posted: 6/26/2022 10:03:44 PM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 6/27/2022 2:10:15 PM EDT
[#2]
Have you checked your extractor tension?

Link Posted: 6/27/2022 2:41:08 PM EDT
[#3]
I'll throw my hat into the ring.  I'm sure Steve of Allentown can give a more expert assessment.  

I had a high end semicustom gun that sometimes had three point jams with smileyface dents on my reloads.  I was able to tune OAL longer to alleviate (as Les insisted the gun's geometry was not at fault.)  It appears you're running factory 230 ball ammo, so you don't have that luxury.

Since this is happening before the extractor engages the case, I think you have a ramp position/angle issue.  Bullet crashes into ramp, bounces high, rams into the top of the chamber.  This sets the bullet back into the case and dents the side of the case on the ramp/throat corners.  The upwards force of the bullet into the inside of the chamber then crashes the barrel hood into the upper lugs.  This locks the whole system up.  Slide can't run forward because of friction on barrel hood.    

Polishing the breech face can help, as it helps the case slide up the face, lessening the feed angle.  I'd want a good smith to do that, but your real fix is more likely a combo of ramp position, ramp angle, and chamber/throat geometry.  This is legit 1911 smith stuff here.

You're seeing it on slide lock release because the slide has less spring energy available than during a typical / full recoil cycle.  Also because that's when feed lip friction is the greatest.  I'd bet this is also happening to a degree during "normal" cycling...dangerous because of the setback that is occurring and increased chamber pressure.
Link Posted: 6/27/2022 4:02:12 PM EDT
[#4]
I had a gun that was doing this. I sent it to Wilson for their reliability package and it has not done it since.
Link Posted: 6/27/2022 4:24:32 PM EDT
[#5]
1911 reliability issues (especially feeding) are usually due to magazines. Yes, Wilson and CMC are very popular and high-quality magazines, but they still might be the culprit in your gun.
Worth perusing in your troubleshooting:
1911 magazine analysis, Part 1
1911 magazine analysis, Part 2
The TL/DR is that JMB (his name be praised) designed a very specific magazine lip profile to work with the 1911's controlled round feed. Modern mags (like Wilson, etc.) with "wadcutter" lips negate part of that design. Original military mag lips or those with the Colt "hybrid" style might resolve your issue. Checkmate sells them.
Link Posted: 6/27/2022 7:31:02 PM EDT
[#6]
Remove slide from frame, remove barrel from slide

Without the slide, mount the barrel in the frame (you can just put the pin of the slidestop in)...press the barrel down and back, and take some pictures of the feed ramp and barrel and where they meet when the barrel is in it's unlocked/feed position, like it would be when the slide is back.

Did you buy this gun new or used? If used, I wonder if someone decided to "throat the barrel" or "polish the feed ramp" for you and ruined it. Whenever I hear anyone say either of those phrases in relation to a gun they're trying to sell, I roll my eyes and pass.

Anyway - seeing how the barrel and frame relate to each other and all of that would be a big help.
Link Posted: 6/27/2022 7:59:16 PM EDT
[#7]
It is my basic  understanding,  that when all the magazine brands cause the same  " General Lee Jump" of hitting low first, then into the top of the chamber: there are usually one of two causes.

#1: the magazine catch is cut too low.
This puts the stripping point too low on the feed ramp.
An easy fix with an EGW mag button, with a file-to-fit mag catch shelf.

#2: the feed ramp itself was cut too far rearward/at the wrong angle.
Fixable by removing more metal on the frame.
But not easy, or recommend for a novice gunsmith to attempt.
Link Posted: 6/27/2022 8:25:40 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Remove slide from frame, remove barrel from slide

Without the slide, mount the barrel in the frame (you can just put the pin of the slidestop in)...press the barrel down and back, and take some pictures of the feed ramp and barrel and where they meet when the barrel is in it's unlocked/feed position, like it would be when the slide is back.

Did you buy this gun new or used? If used, I wonder if someone decided to "throat the barrel" or "polish the feed ramp" for you and ruined it. Whenever I hear anyone say either of those phrases in relation to a gun they're trying to sell, I roll my eyes and pass.

Anyway - seeing how the barrel and frame relate to each other and all of that would be a big help.
View Quote


Attachment Attached File


Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 6/27/2022 9:03:20 PM EDT
[#9]
To me, that feed ramp looks a little shallow...but I'm not an expert. Is the gun new? Can/have you contacted Springfield about it?
Link Posted: 6/27/2022 9:17:48 PM EDT
[#10]
I got it used with no factory magazines and I haven't contacted springfield about it.
Link Posted: 6/27/2022 9:44:35 PM EDT
[#11]
I agree. That ramp and throat need reworking, which will correct the interaction of bullet nose and ramp, also helping round the corner that the case has to make.

Any competent smith offering a reliability package would check all those boxes.

Time to call someone like Sams or Jojos if you didn’t want to give Springfield a crack at it.
Link Posted: 6/28/2022 11:47:32 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:Is this a magazine geometry problem?
View Quote
@johnmyster nailed the diagnosis right up front!

The magazine is not the problem.  As others have pointed out it's most likely a feed ramp geometry problem.  It's possible that the previous owner screwed things up when he rounded over the top of the frame feed ramp when he attempted to polish the ramp.  It may also just be a manufacturing error.  The frame ramp angle is called out in the specs as being 31.5 degrees with no +/- tolerance allowed.  The ramp should also extend downward into the frame .420" from the top of the frame rails.  The confounding factor is that the barrel bed cannot be any less than .246" in length.  It's not unusual to have to compromise the the ramp depth in order to achieve the correct angle while not shortening the critical barrel bed length.  Here's an illustration of the relationships of these three dimensions.



What you've been experiencing is a 3 point jam as evidenced by the telltale clues of the smiley face just behind the case mouth and the bullets having been pushed back into the cases.

What's happening is the out-of-spec frame feed ramp is causing the bullet nose to impact the barrel ramp instead of skipping over it.  This pushes the barrel forward.  As the barrel is pushed forward it also rises.  Instead of the barrel lugs correctly engaging with the slide's lug  recesses they make hard contact with the slide too early and the jam occurs.  When this malfunction occurs you can tap the barrel muzzle with a piece of wood, a plastic mallet, or push it against an immovable object like a tree or fence post and the slide should snap forward as the barrel goes into battery.

Quoted:Original military mag lips or those with the Colt "hybrid" style might resolve your issue. Checkmate sells them.
View Quote
After having completed a 5,000 round feeding test a couple of years ago that involved multiple 1911s, multiple flavors of factory FMJ/JHP/ ammo, and multiple flavors of magazines from a half dozen or more manufacturers, I decided to run Checkmate hybrid feed lip mags exclusively.

I also put EGW higher mag catches in nearly every 1911 that lands on my bench.  The combination of these two results in the smoothest and most reliable feeding pistols across the widest range of ammo.  But these are not a substitute for a correctly manufactured and built pistol.  Your pistol needs professional help to get the frame ramp squared away.






Link Posted: 6/29/2022 3:31:35 PM EDT
[#13]
@Steve_Allentown_PA who do I need to send it to? I also want them to fit the magwell too. I was going to do all this myself, but I'm not capable of doing the feedramp correctly.
Link Posted: 6/29/2022 3:40:53 PM EDT
[#14]
Try giving Springfield a call; they made it, maybe they'll fix it? (It can't hurt to try!)

Beyond that...you're looking at a non-trivial gunsmith update to the gun Plenty of good gunsmiths should be able to do what you need done, the problem is they've all got backlogs...you might be able to sneak it in if there's a gunsmith batching jobs and cutting feedramps is next in their list of operations for a batch, but...that's luck.

I'd probably recommend someone like Evolution Armory as I know they're really good at what they do and will give you a no-BS assessment of what needs to be done, but I'm also pretty sure they have a backlog now..
Link Posted: 6/29/2022 3:56:45 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
@Steve_Allentown_PA who do I need to send it to? I also want them to fit the magwell too. I was going to do all this myself, but I'm not capable of doing the feedramp correctly.
View Quote
Send it to Wilson Combat.

https://www.wilsoncombat.com/1911-customization/#customize-an-existing-gun
Link Posted: 6/29/2022 4:15:25 PM EDT
[#16]
I always feel like on 1911s, the OEM had the chance to do it right the first time.  Unless I can dimensionally show them their error, they're likely to disagree with me and send it back with fresh springs.

That said, it would probably be free and pretty quick.  I've known plenty of people (including myself) that got 100% satisfaction from Ruger/Springfield/Dan Wesson/STI warranty/repair department for things hastily done wrong by the production lines.

For a small functional job, I would tend to call one that worked on "shooters" and not one focused on full house customs.  You might get surprised and have the likes of EA (Dave), Chuck Rogers, Steve Owens, or someone like that take on the work.  Those smiths often have lulls where they're working on a batch but waiting on finish, parts, etc.  I'd think you might have more immediate luck with JoJo's gunworks, Jim Milks, Sams Custom Guns, etc.  Depending on how serious you are about the gun, perhaps even a larger shop like Wilson or Nighthawk and ask for a "reliability package."

I'd think you could get a magwell swapped onto a TRP yourself without any modification and it would be a good learning experience.
Link Posted: 6/29/2022 4:28:21 PM EDT
[#17]
I would send it back to Springfield they seem to generally be good with warranty.

The ramp should be back to the slide stop hole.



Link Posted: 6/29/2022 4:49:41 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
@johnmyster nailed the diagnosis right up front!

What you've been experiencing is a 3 point jam as evidenced by the telltale clues of the smiley face just behind the case mouth and the bullets having been pushed back into the cases.

What's happening is the out-of-spec frame feed ramp is causing the bullet nose to impact the barrel ramp instead of skipping over it.

... Checkmate hybrid feed lip mags exclusively. Your pistol needs professional help to get the frame ramp squared away.
View Quote
Not much rollover relief at top of the barrel ramp, either.

Attachment Attached File

Link Posted: 6/29/2022 5:44:23 PM EDT
[#19]
@johnmyster I do small-time gunsmith work and have just started to learn 1911s. I have changed the guiderod, fitted a new harrison customs trigger, reworked the sear and hammer, installed and fitted the magwell... etc. The only thing I have left to do is bevel the frame to match the new magwell, which I can do, but if I have to send it off for the ramp to be cut, I may as well just have them bevel and recoat the frame too.....

All that being said, I don't have the tools or knowledge on how to machine a 31.5 degree feedramp perfectly..... that's where I need help.
Link Posted: 6/29/2022 8:10:21 PM EDT
[#20]
Understand now, you’re beveling the interior.

Wilson is a good option then, as they can recoat in-house.

Who do your local single stack shooters use as a smith?
Link Posted: 6/29/2022 8:48:17 PM EDT
[#21]
I don't really get the "send it to X custom shop" comments.  That gun is machined incorrectly and SA should/will fix or replace it for free.
Link Posted: 6/29/2022 9:03:23 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I don't really get the "send it to X custom shop" comments.  That gun is machined incorrectly and SA should/will fix or replace it for free.
View Quote


Yeah, but they will try and replace all the parts I put on it and use them as an excuse to why it isn't functioning.
Link Posted: 6/29/2022 9:25:45 PM EDT
[#23]
@Istolethisname

I'd  slide down to the Texas HTF, and find out who is a good 1911 smith in your part of the state.

There should be a good 1/2 dozen within a few hours driving.
Or a few miles, if you live near a city.
Link Posted: 6/29/2022 9:38:33 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Yeah, but they will try and replace all the parts I put on it and use them as an excuse to why it isn't functioning.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't really get the "send it to X custom shop" comments.  That gun is machined incorrectly and SA should/will fix or replace it for free.


Yeah, but they will try and replace all the parts I put on it and use them as an excuse to why it isn't functioning.
Maybe. Call them and send them pics.  You have nothing to lose.

If you send it in, send a manifest with parts that you want returned.
Link Posted: 6/29/2022 10:03:14 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:@Steve_Allentown_PA who do I need to send it to? I also want them to fit the magwell too. I was going to do all this myself, but I'm not capable of doing the feedramp correctly.
View Quote
Lots of good suggestions.  Here is contact info for several that have already been recommended plus a couple of others.  I can personally vouch for each of these guys.  Top notch work.

Greg Derr https://www.derrprecision.com/

George Piper http://www.pipercustom.com/1911.htm

Steve Owens https://www.integrityarmscustoms.com/

Dustin Housel https://hs-custom.com/

Evolution Armory https://www.evolutionarmory.com/

Mike MP Custom https://mpcustom.net/
Link Posted: 6/30/2022 4:53:11 AM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I don't really get the "send it to X custom shop" comments.  That gun is machined incorrectly and SA should/will fix or replace it for free.
View Quote
I've not had good luck with SA fixing things.
Link Posted: 6/30/2022 7:46:19 AM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I've not had good luck with SA fixing things.
View Quote


I've already chimed in on this, but I just remembered...

My current carry is a Colt LW commander that was given a full house treatment (and coated) by SACS ~2012, including adding an EGW steel ramp insert.  SACS even commented on the invoice that it wouldn't feed their test ammo assortment with the mags provided.  Some time later, the gun went to Jim Milks to change out a trigger and a sight.  He measured the ramp geometry and ended up recutting for more reliable service.

I wouldn't send an obviously customized gun back for warranty service.  By the time it's a customized gun, it needs to go to custom shops/smiths.  That said, a trigger swap and guiderod doesn't exactly make it custom.  I'd hazard that >50% of SA 1911s that actually get shot have that goofy FLGR sequestered to the trash bin.  I'm sure that's not news to them.  I had one TRP that locked up with a trashed barrel link due to their unrelieved OE guiderod.
Link Posted: 6/30/2022 11:23:32 AM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I've not had good luck with SA fixing things.
View Quote
That's a shame.  They used to have a good reputation for making things right.
Link Posted: 7/9/2022 12:43:02 AM EDT
[#29]
I decided to send it to Sam's custom gunworks. Maybe it will actually run when I get it back.
Link Posted: 7/9/2022 6:26:00 AM EDT
[#30]
Send it to Nighthawk Custom
Bob Reeves is Awesome to work with!
Link Posted: 7/9/2022 4:18:27 PM EDT
[#31]
Sam's is not far from here.  You have not done wrong.  Please post in the thread what he finds/suggests.
Link Posted: 8/12/2022 9:46:26 AM EDT
[#32]
So far, he has told me that the frame and barrel ramps need to be reprofiled and that the barrel needs more clearance on the bushing. Hopefully I'll have it back pretty quick.
Link Posted: 8/31/2022 8:37:07 AM EDT
[#33]
Finally got the call from Sam's. He definitely stuck it to me, but lesson learned..... He told me he had to fix the frame and barrel ramp, which we knew. He told me the barrel was "sprung" and needed to be fitted to the bushing. All of that is just fine, however.......

He proceeded to tell me the extractor needed adjustment. I know for a fact the extractor was good. I made sure to adjust it before I sent it in.

Then..... he tells me he polished the sear and hammer and that they were rough. I also know this is false as I polished the hammer and sear down to a ceramic stone using the true radius sear. I also fitted a new trigger when I did that.

After he tells me how much he is charging me.... almost 500 dollars.... I tell him I'm an 07/02 and he tries to sell me his suppressors. I'm not sure I can afford them...... haha

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's going to be great when I get it back, I'm just not sure exactly what he did to the sear/hammer/extractor that wasn't already done.
Link Posted: 8/31/2022 8:52:11 AM EDT
[#34]
Should have had Springfield do it for free.
Link Posted: 8/31/2022 10:16:28 AM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
@johnmyster nailed the diagnosis right up front!

The magazine is not the problem.  As others have pointed out it's most likely a feed ramp geometry problem.  It's possible that the previous owner screwed things up when he rounded over the top of the frame feed ramp when he attempted to polish the ramp.  It may also just be a manufacturing error.  The frame ramp angle is called out in the specs as being 31.5 degrees with no +/- tolerance allowed.  The ramp should also extend downward into the frame .420" from the top of the frame rails.  The confounding factor is that the barrel bed cannot be any less than .246" in length.  It's not unusual to have to compromise the the ramp depth in order to achieve the correct angle while not shortening the critical barrel bed length.  Here's an illustration of the relationships of these three dimensions.

https://i.imgur.com/UBuw2Hi.jpg



What you've been experiencing is a 3 point jam as evidenced by the telltale clues of the smiley face just behind the case mouth and the bullets having been pushed back into the cases.

What's happening is the out-of-spec frame feed ramp is causing the bullet nose to impact the barrel ramp instead of skipping over it.  This pushes the barrel forward.  As the barrel is pushed forward it also rises.  Instead of the barrel lugs correctly engaging with the slide's lug  recesses they make hard contact with the slide too early and the jam occurs.  When this malfunction occurs you can tap the barrel muzzle with a piece of wood, a plastic mallet, or push it against an immovable object like a tree or fence post and the slide should snap forward as the barrel goes into battery.

After having completed a 5,000 round feeding test a couple of years ago that involved multiple 1911s, multiple flavors of factory FMJ/JHP/ ammo, and multiple flavors of magazines from a half dozen or more manufacturers, I decided to run Checkmate hybrid feed lip mags exclusively.

I also put EGW higher mag catches in nearly every 1911 that lands on my bench.  The combination of these two results in the smoothest and most reliable feeding pistols across the widest range of ammo.  But these are not a substitute for a correctly manufactured and built pistol.  Your pistol needs professional help to get the frame ramp squared away.






View Quote


Yeah, all of this.  When extractor lower corner is radiused and tension set correctly, using good 1911 mags, and a .020 higher egw mag catch, my 1911s run like butter.  I hate to say this, but I did those things and lightly radiused the hard corner between throat and chamber on a kimber tle pro.  After doing those things it ran smoother than my nhc predator and my wilson cqb compact.  Those 2 ran good, but the kimber chambered like butter, no ka-chug as rds feed.
Link Posted: 8/31/2022 10:20:16 AM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Not much rollover relief at top of the barrel ramp, either.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/18978/Rollover_jpg-2435669.JPG
View Quote


Yep, noticed that as well.  The hard corner is barely broke where the throat meets chamber wall.  A nice polished radius goes a long way in smoothing things up.
Link Posted: 8/31/2022 12:53:14 PM EDT
[#37]
@03RN They made it. It's a higher end springfield model. They certified it was good through qc by, I can only assume, test firing. And decided to ship it out.

I didn't trust them to fix it 100%. I'm sure they could have doctored it up, but would they have actually FIXED it.

I think probably not.
Link Posted: 8/31/2022 4:46:48 PM EDT
[#38]
I sent two Pros back to Springfield and neither one came back fixed.
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top