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Posted: 12/20/2020 9:35:20 PM EST
Has anyone compared the death of penetration in 9mm 147, .40 180, 10mm .200, and .45 230 fmj?
Link Posted: 12/20/2020 9:42:42 PM EST
Yes. Lucky Gunner on YouTube and their website have charts and data galore. Look it up.
Link Posted: 12/20/2020 9:57:12 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/21/2020 9:13:26 AM EST
A member here, 5pins, did a comparison of 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 10mm hard cast. maybe start there.

5pins General Cartridge
Link Posted: 12/21/2020 9:18:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/21/2020 9:18:52 AM EST by the_professional]
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Originally Posted By MRW:


I'm a big fan of 147gr 9mm, fmj if I have to
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In a ban state or in the woods, that would be my choice, too. Federal American Eagle 147gr AE9FP, Blazer Brass 147gr FMJ, and Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ all have a decent flat nose which is better for cutting flesh (as close as FMJ can get to a SWC). Slight edge to Federal AE9FP and Blazer Brass for having the wider nose. Of course, for penetration...Hard Cast would be the way to go.
Link Posted: 12/21/2020 9:40:17 AM EST
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Originally Posted By the_professional:


In a ban state or in the woods, that would be my choice, too. Federal American Eagle 147gr AE9FP, Blazer Brass 147gr FMJ, and Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ all have a decent flat nose which is better for cutting flesh (as close as FMJ can get to a SWC). Slight edge to Federal AE9FP and Blazer Brass for having the wider nose. Of course, for penetration...Hard Cast would be the way to go.
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There are states that ban hollowpoints?

Nick
Link Posted: 12/21/2020 10:08:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By Kip4:
Has anyone compared the death of penetration in 9mm 147, .40 180, 10mm .200, and .45 230 fmj?
View Quote


Are you looking for penetration related to performance in humans or various media?

The lucky gunner tests compare clear gel which does not correlate to humans.

General Cartridge has started using ordnance gel which is great.

Gun Sam shoots baloney and milk jugs which is the same as clear gel in terms of practical data but I still like his videos

The Chopping block used to use organic gel and yielded a lot of really good data but has unfortunately switched to clear gel.

You can search through youtube for more ordnance or organic gel tests. Make sure gel is "validated." You cant "calibrate" gel with a bb
Link Posted: 12/21/2020 7:02:44 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Commando_Guy:
There are states that ban hollowpoints?

Nick
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Originally Posted By Commando_Guy:
Originally Posted By the_professional:


In a ban state or in the woods, that would be my choice, too. Federal American Eagle 147gr AE9FP, Blazer Brass 147gr FMJ, and Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ all have a decent flat nose which is better for cutting flesh (as close as FMJ can get to a SWC). Slight edge to Federal AE9FP and Blazer Brass for having the wider nose. Of course, for penetration...Hard Cast would be the way to go.
There are states that ban hollowpoints?

Nick



New Joisey comes to mind.......... Not a problem though. Just use the Lehigh bullets.
Link Posted: 12/21/2020 7:36:59 PM EST
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Originally Posted By MCBallpeen:



New Joisey comes to mind.......... Not a problem though. Just use the Lehigh bullets.
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This is not correct...New Jersey's gun laws are nonsense but hollow points are not illegal.
Link Posted: 12/21/2020 8:43:30 PM EST
I thought in the home HP was OK.

Outside the home NO.

If I'm wrong someone will be here soon.
Link Posted: 12/22/2020 8:20:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/22/2020 8:21:33 AM EST by Gregory_K]
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Originally Posted By smitret:
I thought in the home HP was OK.

Outside the home NO.

If I'm wrong someone will be here soon.
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that's the way i recall the law legal for target/hunting/home and transport from store to home only.

IIRC fed and few other manufs had/have "fmj" hp to skirt the law.

eta EFMJ Bullets
Link Posted: 12/22/2020 8:38:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/22/2020 8:40:38 AM EST by the_professional]
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Originally Posted By AJR576:



This is not correct...New Jersey's gun laws are nonsense but hollow points are not illegal.
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Originally Posted By AJR576:
Originally Posted By MCBallpeen:



New Joisey comes to mind.......... Not a problem though. Just use the Lehigh bullets.



This is not correct...New Jersey's gun laws are nonsense but hollow points are not illegal.


https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2009/title-2c/2c-39/2c-39-3/

Looks like, per New Jersey law NJSA 2C:39-3...

You can possesses such ammunition but only from point of purchase to your home/private property controlled by you and then only at home or on the property controlled by you. By default, you can't simply "carry" hollow point ammunition out and about in public in your day-to-day life. Since, a lot of people don't conceivably stay confined to their homes or on the piece of land they control and have to venture out in public from time to time--and a self-defense scenario could conceivably arise at any given time in public--it can be articulated by this legislation that NJ is a defacto "ban state" for JHP.

As always, consult an attorney for the best understanding of the laws but NJ isn't a place I would ever go to test the waters...
Link Posted: 12/22/2020 9:52:27 AM EST
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Originally Posted By the_professional:


https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2009/title-2c/2c-39/2c-39-3/

Looks like, per New Jersey law NJSA 2C:39-3...

You can possesses such ammunition but only from point of purchase to your home/private property controlled by you and then only at home or on the property controlled by you. By default, you can't simply "carry" hollow point ammunition out and about in public in your day-to-day life. Since, a lot of people don't conceivably stay confined to their homes or on the piece of land they control and have to venture out in public from time to time--and a self-defense scenario could conceivably arise at any given time in public--it can be articulated by this legislation that NJ is a defacto "ban state" for JHP.

As always, consult an attorney for the best understanding of the laws but NJ isn't a place I would ever go to test the waters...
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Yep, I'm aware of this but unfortunately, it's a moot point since it's virtually impossible to get a concealed carry permit in this socialist state. Our right to protect our families/ourselves ends once we leave our homes...and even the right to protect ourselves while in our homes is often disputed.  NJ politicians waste time/resources creating laws that strip law abiding citizens of their rights instead of focusing their efforts on gangs, drugs, etc... they're either too stupid to realize that criminals don't care about their laws or they know it and simply want to fool the mindless sheep into believing that they're doing something to fight crime... either way, I'm done with the politics of this state... looking forward to moving to a free state that respects our constitution and its citizens.
Link Posted: 12/23/2020 10:13:11 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/26/2020 6:23:00 AM EST
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Originally Posted By MRW:
bak to testing..

I'd be interested in 147 gr 9mm compared to 230 grain 45, both FMJ
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Both of those easily exceed the FBI minimum penetration test. FMJ in both have been killing people for 100 years

Just look up the 9mm and 45 tests individually, on YouTube, if there isn't a head to head comparison
Link Posted: 12/26/2020 10:23:23 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/26/2020 1:32:17 PM EST
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Originally Posted By MRW:
147 grain 9mm FMJ has been killing people for 100 years, you say?

no, you probably mean the 115 gr variant, right?

But I'm interested in a head to head performance comparison between 147 9mm and 230 45ACP using the same barrel length and gel. Both are the heavy-for-caliber loads.  My guess is that the 9mm penetrates more than the 230 but wounding would be nearly identical.

this IS a thread discussing such things, correct?
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230 gr is not heavy for caliber. It's what .45 ACP has been since it's inception.

Nick
Link Posted: 12/26/2020 2:11:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/26/2020 2:14:17 PM EST by GONIF]
On a CCW gun in an urban environment up close a 45acp 230 grain hollow point at 900 fps will get the job done without  over pentation. The 45 ACP 230 grain   XTP over Longshot or 800 x is a great ccw round . We don't want innocent bystanders getting nailed by a round blowing through your intended target . In the woods ,mountain's ,desert and boonies the 10mm gives a great combo of power and pentation.  
Right round and caliber for the intended job in the right environment is the key.
Link Posted: 12/26/2020 3:48:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By Kip4:
Has anyone compared the death of penetration in 9mm 147, .40 180, 10mm .200, and .45 230 fmj?
View Quote

BrassFetcher has some
10mm Hardcast should perform similarly to FMJ, it went 37-39"
45 230gr FMJ went 32"+
All I can find seems like it goes 30+ inches in gel in any of the service calibers.
Link Posted: 12/26/2020 7:18:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/26/2020 7:19:46 PM EST by MRW]
Link Posted: 12/26/2020 9:49:32 PM EST
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Originally Posted By MRW:
yes, 230 was original. lighter bullets came after

but what's heavier than 230 in 45ACP?
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231.
Duh
Link Posted: 12/26/2020 10:00:08 PM EST
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Originally Posted By MRW:
yes, 230 was original. lighter bullets came after

but what's heavier than 230 in 45ACP?
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255
Link Posted: 12/26/2020 11:36:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/26/2020 11:38:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/26/2020 11:54:05 PM EST
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Originally Posted By GONIF:  On a CCW gun in an urban environment up close a 45acp 230 grain hollow point at 900 fps will get the job done without  over pentation. The 45 ACP 230 grain   XTP over Longshot or 800 x is a great ccw round . We don't want innocent bystanders getting nailed by a round blowing through your intended target . In the woods ,mountain's ,desert and boonies the 10mm gives a great combo of power and pentation.  
Right round and caliber for the intended job in the right environment is the key.
View Quote


Show me where that has ever occurred in an otherwise lawful shoot by a non-police civilian, and I might get concerned about it.  If it did happen, the antis would be beating us about the head over it.

Pistol caliber overpenetration is a fudd myth.
Link Posted: 12/26/2020 11:56:37 PM EST
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Originally Posted By MRW:  So 230 grain IS heavy for caliber, even though you said it's not, and you're just being an ass?
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No, 250 is heavy for caliber:

https://handloadingnotebook.wordpress.com/2018/02/21/heavy-bullets-in-45-acp/
Link Posted: 12/27/2020 1:28:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/27/2020 1:29:32 PM EST by Commando_Guy]
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Originally Posted By backbencher:


No, 250 is heavy for caliber:

https://handloadingnotebook.wordpress.com/2018/02/21/heavy-bullets-in-45-acp/
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Thank you. I knew there were 250's out there, just couldn't find loading data for them in my Hornady manual (4th edition).
@MRW, wasn't trying to rile you-sorry about that.

Nick
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 1:32:34 AM EST
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Originally Posted By MRW:
bak to testing..

I'd be interested in 147 gr 9mm compared to 230 grain 45, both FMJ
View Quote


Check out general-cartridge.com

I dont think the difference between hardcast and fmj is that big of a difference in clear gel.

I dont think clear gel is a good tool for judging real world performance fwiw
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 2:31:45 PM EST
Minor Nitpick: JMB actually designed the .45 acp with a 200 grain bullet.

The Army had it switched to 230 for better effectiveness on horses.
Link Posted: 12/29/2020 3:21:51 AM EST
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Originally Posted By the_professional:


In a ban state or in the woods, that would be my choice, too. Federal American Eagle 147gr AE9FP, Blazer Brass 147gr FMJ, and Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ all have a decent flat nose which is better for cutting flesh (as close as FMJ can get to a SWC). Slight edge to Federal AE9FP and Blazer Brass for having the wider nose. Of course, for penetration...Hard Cast would be the way to go.
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Originally Posted By the_professional:
Originally Posted By MRW:


I'm a big fan of 147gr 9mm, fmj if I have to


In a ban state or in the woods, that would be my choice, too. Federal American Eagle 147gr AE9FP, Blazer Brass 147gr FMJ, and Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ all have a decent flat nose which is better for cutting flesh (as close as FMJ can get to a SWC). Slight edge to Federal AE9FP and Blazer Brass for having the wider nose. Of course, for penetration...Hard Cast would be the way to go.

That's good to hear! I bought 200 for $50 a few years ago for no good reason. I want some of the Underwood hardcast 9mm but they've been out for months. Hopefully the Speer is a decent standin. My bulk ammo is 124 grain Blazer brass.
Link Posted: 12/29/2020 3:52:20 AM EST
Yankees have ignorant laws to give criminals the edge.  Cause if you are going to commit a
Where you are likely to shoot and kill someone which is against the law, do you think they're going to say I guess I better not use hollow points which do the most damage? See how stupid it sounds?
Link Posted: 12/29/2020 12:56:53 PM EST
IMHO, the 230 grain 45 acp is the ticket for self defense at 21 feet or less . It just plain works for that and always has. It expands and stays in the target transmitting all its energy in the target.
Link Posted: 12/29/2020 1:09:19 PM EST
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Originally Posted By GONIF:
IMHO, the 230 grain 45 acp is the ticket for self defense at 21 feet or less . It just plain works for that and always has. It expands and stays in the target transmitting all its energy in the target.
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FMJ .45 ACP will go right through most miscreants.  It was intended to put down enemy horses.
Link Posted: 12/29/2020 4:22:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/29/2020 4:39:26 PM EST by GONIF]
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Originally Posted By backbencher:


FMJ .45 ACP will go right through most miscreants.  It was intended to put down enemy horses.
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My bad , should have been more clear .Never said or meant fmj , jhp is what to use for SD. Never ever bought or loaded fmj 45 acp . No practical use I could see in fmj 45 acp.
Link Posted: 12/29/2020 5:24:13 PM EST
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Originally Posted By GONIF:  My bad , should have been more clear .Never said or meant fmj , jhp is what to use for SD. Never ever bought or loaded fmj 45 acp . No practical use I could see in fmj 45 acp.
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Pretty practical in NJ, or if you're being charged by cavalry.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 6:21:50 PM EST
depends on pressure levels as well. 230 grain FMJ 45 Super will penetrate quite a bit deeper than standard pressure.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 6:48:47 PM EST
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Originally Posted By backbencher:


Show me where that has ever occurred in an otherwise lawful shoot by a non-police civilian, and I might get concerned about it.  If it did happen, the antis would be beating us about the head over it.

Pistol caliber overpenetration is a fudd myth.
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Because you can't find an example of something happening is poor logic in determining whether something is or isn't a good idea.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 8:57:54 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Justin-Kase:


Because you can't find an example of something happening is poor logic in determining whether something is or isn't a good idea.
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Originally Posted By Justin-Kase:
Originally Posted By backbencher:  Show me where that has ever occurred in an otherwise lawful shoot by a non-police civilian, and I might get concerned about it.  If it did happen, the antis would be beating us about the head over it.

Pistol caliber overpenetration is a fudd myth.


Because you can't find an example of something happening is poor logic in determining whether something is or isn't a good idea.


Overpenetration is a Fudd myth, and that you can show no examples of it happening is a good indication that odds against it happening are astronomical.  The only examples I can find are police shootings in which the department found that their officer had not missed and shot an innocent, but had managed to shoot through the miscreant.  Riiight.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 9:22:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 9:26:53 PM EST
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Originally Posted By backbencher:


Overpenetration is a Fudd myth, and that you can show no examples of it happening is a good indication that odds against it happening are astronomical.  The only examples I can find are police shootings in which the department found that their officer had not missed and shot an innocent, but had managed to shoot through the miscreant.  Riiight.
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Originally Posted By backbencher:
Originally Posted By Justin-Kase:
Originally Posted By backbencher:  Show me where that has ever occurred in an otherwise lawful shoot by a non-police civilian, and I might get concerned about it.  If it did happen, the antis would be beating us about the head over it.

Pistol caliber overpenetration is a fudd myth.


Because you can't find an example of something happening is poor logic in determining whether something is or isn't a good idea.


Overpenetration is a Fudd myth, and that you can show no examples of it happening is a good indication that odds against it happening are astronomical.  The only examples I can find are police shootings in which the department found that their officer had not missed and shot an innocent, but had managed to shoot through the miscreant.  Riiight.


Ive read of officers shooting perps that were wrestling other cops and the bullet exited the perp to hit the cop.

Thats such a far out there scenario that I chalk it up to statistical anomalies.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 11:34:59 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 03RN:  Ive read of officers shooting perps that were wrestling other cops and the bullet exited the perp to hit the cop.

Thats such a far out there scenario that I chalk it up to statistical anomalies.
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If you've got a link I'd appreciate it.  I can see even a hollowpoint going through someone's leg & hitting the good guy if you're wrestling.

But as far as a homeowner or a CC/OC shooting?  There are what, hundreds of lawful non-police civilian shootings a year, and I can't find anyone other than the miscreant wounded.
Link Posted: 1/20/2021 1:45:16 AM EST
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Originally Posted By MRW:
bak to testing..

I'd be interested in 147 gr 9mm compared to 230 grain 45, both FMJ
View Quote


It's difficult to do.   They all penetrate well past 50".  So you need at least 4, or 5 blocks of gel.  And you have to hope the bullet stays straight through that many blocks.

Link Posted: 1/24/2021 4:38:00 PM EST
I’d load up fmj if you made me.
Link Posted: 1/24/2021 6:06:40 PM EST
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Originally Posted By backbencher:


If you've got a link I'd appreciate it.  I can see even a hollowpoint going through someone's leg & hitting the good guy if you're wrestling.

But as far as a homeowner or a CC/OC shooting?  There are what, hundreds of lawful non-police civilian shootings a year, and I can't find anyone other than the miscreant wounded.
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Originally Posted By backbencher:
Originally Posted By 03RN:  Ive read of officers shooting perps that were wrestling other cops and the bullet exited the perp to hit the cop.

Thats such a far out there scenario that I chalk it up to statistical anomalies.


If you've got a link I'd appreciate it.  I can see even a hollowpoint going through someone's leg & hitting the good guy if you're wrestling.

But as far as a homeowner or a CC/OC shooting?  There are what, hundreds of lawful non-police civilian shootings a year, and I can't find anyone other than the miscreant wounded.


I don't. Iirc some of the pass throughs that hit an officer were hollow points.

I think its a non issue. I typically carry heavy, fast, SWCs.
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