I have been shooting 1911s for decades. I love the looks of a 1911 - whether it's a bare bones GI model or a railed version with extra bling. I have nothing against 2011s or 9mm variations of this classic American platform. I do own a 1911 in 9mm, but I have never owned a 2011. I have a couple of bull barrel 1911s, but I prefer traditional 1911s with a barrel bushing.

The 1911 has so many variations and flavors, but IMO, when considering 45 ACP single stack options available, there are four tiers based on quality/price:

1) Budget models (RIA, Tisas, etc.)
2) Mid-tier (standard models of S&W, Colt, Springfield Armory, SIG Sauer, Kimber, Ruger, etc., etc.)
3) High end factory produced 1911s (Springfield TRP/Vickers, Dan Wesson Valor, S&W Performance Center, etc.)
4) Custom shop 1911s (Alchemy, Nighthawk, Wilson Combat, Les Baer, Cabot, Ed Brown, etc.)

In my estimation, there are lots of improvements going from tier 1 to tier 2. But as you go up the tiers of quality/price, the value and improvements of the end product tend to blur. Take a Tisas or Rock Island and compare it to Ruger 1911 and you will likely see better machining of parts, better fit, more reliability and less MIM parts (although they are still there in both tiers). Going from tier 2 to tier 3, the fit, finish and machining is better and once again - less MIM parts. I own several SA, S&W & SIG 1911s. After recently purchasing a Dan Wesson Valor (pictures below), the quality of the build is better. The Valor has a much smoother slide action, and while the fit does not seem much tighter than my Springfield Emissary, based on a visual inspection and the feel of the pistol, I am guessing that the slide/frame of the Valor has been custom fit by a very experienced 1911 expert at Dan Wesson.

Now, and to the point of this thread, what would I get from making the jump from a $2,000 DW Valor to an Ed Brown Special Forces ($3,200), a Wilson Combat XTAC Elite ($4,500) or a Cabot Vintage Classic ($5,000)? I buy premium priced products over standard ones. As an example, I do not buy new Harley-Davidson Ultra Limiteds. Instead, I opt for a new CVO Limited. But comparing those two bikes, there are a significant amount of useful features (besides visual things) that make up the 35% premium in its price. When I compare my Valor to the Cabot Vintage, I am seeing a bump in price of nearly 150%. I have always wanted a custom shop 1911. But I have never been able to get past the premium the handmade 1911s command. I can afford to buy the Cabot or Nighthawk. I can justify the increased price of my CVO over the standard Ultra Limited, based on the additional features. But, I just have to wonder, is it a vanity thing which makes one make the jump from a near custom 1911 to the Cabot or other custom?

So, in closing, can someone here help me justify the cost of the Cabot, etc. vs. the Dan Wesson? Please? And yes, I know, just buy one.... Buy it because you can... Buy it because you want it... Buy it because it supports small business... But, at the end of the day, a pistol is just a tool.

Here are some pictures of my new Dan Wesson Valor:
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Excellent machining and fitting
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Stan Chen magwell

Diminishing returns is a thing.

However, you will get a little something for the money. In my opinion, the benefits are personal preference for how the gun looks and feels. Options that are not available in off the shelf configuration s elsewhere.

Just like art, some people want, or can only afford the painting from target. Others want a Picasso, sometimes just because most people can't afford and don't have one.

I certainly get all of this. Maybe I just get over myself and just purchase one. But damn, I find it hard to pull the proverbial trigger on one.

Well, after you order, you'll have 6-12 months to continue to rethink it. At least that's been the case for me.

In the end it's not a huge risk. If you get it, and decide it's not worth it, you can sell it and get most of your money back.

It’s not anyone else’s job to justify it for you. It’s your money so you would be the only persons judgment that would matter.

Do yourself a favor.

You should handle and shoot one for yourself so that you’re not formulating your opinion based on assumptions, rather logic and reason. When considering something of higher price, actual knowledge sure beats rando internet opinions don’t you think?

It's a great idea... If you can get your hands on one.

I went on a buying binge in 2000 and bought several Kimbers. I really enjoy shooting them but they are safe queens except for weddings and other formal outings. I have a Souther Trapper OWB holster with extra mag carrier for all of them. My EDC is a Shield in a CYA IWB holster. Even my full size M&Ps are safe queens now. The little Shield is just really easy to carry. I'm in/on/off tractors and sxss all day. In/out of my truck etc. as well.

It is, and you sure can if you are of a mind too. I sure as hell did before plunking down cash.

That’s the real power of Internet forums, finding like minded people that will help you out in real life not just throw opinions around.

@Missilegeek

Springfield armory TRP was the best 1911 I ever owned, solid stainless and heavy, but amazing.

I really need to but another one.

I've shot ed browns, wilsons and nighthawks. They're nice guns but they don't really do anything for me. I just don't see the point unless there's certain features that you want. Like front grip serrations or an undercut trigger guard, etc.

If I'm spending the money it would be a Springfield Pro.

There's really nothing the higher end guns do that my Springfield loaded does

Do you like nice things?  Would you own a Rolex, Ferrari, nice suit, shoes, etc.?  Some items are just associated with higher class.  To me, Custom 1911's are such an item.  When I dress-up for certain occasions & put on nice clothes & a nice watch, I want a classy higher end gun to go with it.  I'm not going to live forever, so I'm at a point (age) where I will enjoy nicer things in life while I can.  

I wish I had the money for a Rolex or Ferrari, but a $3K-$4K semi-custom isn't out of reach.

I owned a Wilson Combat 1911 at the same time I owned a few standard production 1911’s from Kimber, Springfield and Colt and none of them came close to the accuracy and ease of shooting of the Wilson Combat pistol. It really was easier to shoot very tight groups from the WC pistol.
Not that the accuracy of the others weren’t OK, they just couldn’t match what the custom pistol could do.

Sold it when my wife was sick and have regretted it ever since.

I guess I need to shoot some of these. Although it’s not like you can go rent them at gun ranges.

The range in RI I worked at had an ed brown and a nighthawk rental fwiw

Thank you. I will have to check the ranges around here.

Most expensive I've ever had are a Colt Rail gun, Sig Sauer 1911, Kimber Custom Classic Stainless.  A guy I used to work with had an Ed Brown, and bought one for his dad too.  I never did get to shoot it before he left, but it's kind of like a Rolex in my mind.  If you can afford it, why not get it?  I was going to pick up a Unertl (sp?) several years back but never pulled the plug.  I do however own a Novak BHP, so... make of that what you will.  

Hmmmm…. Motorcycle parts or a custom 1911?? Maybe both.

GreyBeard-

There are obvious subtle differences that command a premium.   If the extra money won't cause a budgetary crisis (which it won't based on your comments) then just buy the one that will satisfy both your firearm and ego needs.  (ego not meant in a derogatory term rather a behavioral science-type term.)

As others have said, at worst you can sell and only lose a small amount of depreciation, so no real financial risk.   Better than always remembering that you 'could have' bought a better, but chose to settle....that will eat you (me) up!

I'll be honest with you, I don't think they're worth it if you have a well-fit Dan Wesson.  I say well-fit because my limited experience with Dan Wesson is that their fit can vary between specific guns.  I currently own a Specialist, had a Vigil, and have shot my friend's Heritage and all three had different fitments and feels.  My current Specialist is above and beyond the Heritage/Vigil.  I rented a NH Agent 2 a few days ago and I wasn't impressed.  The trigger was heavier, the slide-to-frame/barrel lockup felt the same, and it was snappier (had a heavier recoil spring than the DW).  I've also shot my friend's WC and wasn't impressed by it either.

Small sample size, but I haven't been wooed by the two semi customs I've tried.  Also, before someone says I'm a "just as good type," I compete with an Atlas Titan.  While different platforms, the NH/WC aren't even in the same ballpark.

I have to say I’m beyond impressed and satisfied with my Valor. And it’s just pure old time 1911. It will be my EDC soon. Thanks for your input everyone. Much appreciated.

None of the custom shops are actual custom.  They are just high end.  Custom is when you pick the parts and how you want everything fitted.

And it makes a huge difference when you are getting a gun that you plan on putting high round counts through it.  Not just how long the gun will last, but how comfortable it will be when shooting it.   If you don't have a preference on how a grip safety or thumb safety is blended, or what parts you want, then a true custom is not what you want.  A high end factory gun will do fine.

I agree with your tier assessment Grey beard.

My feeling is there is a big jump in fit and finish from the $400 gun to the 800
A smaller jump between 800& 1400
And an even smaller gap between 1400 and the semi customs ( les Baer Wilson etc)

Then there are the true custom like heirloom precision where you spec  out every aspect of the build ( figure well into the $7k range here)

Many years ago when I lived in the northeast our local big shop was a big proponent of Les Baer and always had a dozen or so new ones in the shop.
He would often get used ones in and ( this will give you an idea of how long ago!) I got a used excellent condition premier II with the 1.5 guarantee for $1200.

It definitely shot better ( especially past 25 yards ) than your run of the mill gun and fix was exquisite of course

Honestly in retrospect other than extended range accuracy ( I had other far less expensive guns that did as well at 25 yards and closer) and “pride of ownership” it really didn’t do anything my other working man price level guns could do.

I have always like traditional style 1911’s spur hammer small grip safety etc, and that is what I have now.

Thank you all for the great feedback! Much appreciated.

Total agree. Also with 1911 design flourishing and the demand is stronger than ever, more and more companies jump in making them (production level, semi-custom, full custom houses), everyone gets choice of which level suit better for them. Similarly, I was once excited about all the souped-up features that used to be luxury only can be had by custom work. But not so much these day, mass production level 1911 quality is catching up rapidly (thanks to modern CNC). Now I am going back to the basic, the traditional style 1911 become more appealing to me.

OP as others have mentioned, I'd add a 5th tier for the bespoke Heirloom Precision/Stan Chen/Ted Yost guns that run in the 5 figure range and have a 10 year waiting list. They are far less practical for most for a variety of reasons though.

I'd also offer that one of the biggest differentiating factors among the Les Baer/ACW/Wilson tier guns is the build philosophy. Baer builds an incredibly tight gun, but their finish is....probably best described as "serviceable" to be generous. Alchemy doesn't hard fit anymore so their guns are probably a little less tight, but even their base finishes are beautiful. They are also very traditionally styled, and are one of the few 1911s out there without the A1 style scallops in the frame behind the trigger.

A coworker of mine had a pair of Premier IIs, and shooting one of them I was amazed at how easy it was to shoot and how accurate it was at ranges beyond what I'm used to. That said it is going to be difficult to try a variety of guns in this price range for most guys, because if there's not a range that rents them locally it's unlikely they'll have a friend with multiple if even one of them.

I had a thread here back in March where I asked a similar question, you may find it helpful.

I'm going to argue that your 4th tier should actually be "Semi-custom". You are still picking off a menu for the most part. anything above that will get into "bespoke" or "true Custom" where you can get things that are unique to you or your ideas.

The posting about diminishing returns is something, too. You hit a mechanical limit of how "good" a 1911 can be where it's not worth spending the money. Anything you spend above that ventures into pride of ownership, which is nebulous. Or other things like finish or how many human hands were actually involved. Which is cool, but deciding if it matters or not is up to you. I'm at a point where I would like an Alchemy. I can "afford" it. I don't need it. I don't think it will do anything my current guns won't do, since I'm already at about the limit of mechanical accuracy for my skills. I haven't bought one.

I'm a Les Baer guy. They were aspirational 20 years ago when I got into shooting. I worked hard(ish) and saved money and bought one when I was crazy broke, and another when my first son was born. Sold off a few less used guns, worked OT, etc to make the stretch. I'm glad I did, enjoyed them hard, still do, and will pass them to my son(s) eventually. I paid more for the gold dot front sight than I did for my whole first carry set up, and the ivory grips are worth more than my first car. Was it worth it? to me, yeah, to other people that's crazy. Sometimes to me it's crazy, too, but too late.

the other aspect is doing what's important to you. I took a work buddy to the range and he had a backpack full of glocks. All the sizes. All in 9mm. To me, they are as exciting as a screwdriver. He saw me shooting the Baer, shot it, and was impressed as it's obviously nicer/better/whatever than a stock glock. He said "we work together, how can you afford a Baer?". I said "because I DON'T have a backpack full of glocks...."

If you have your financial ducks in a row and you won't be taking money out of your fully funder retirement, your kid's 529s, or taking on consumer debt, screw it go nuts. Find a tier that works for you and enjoy it. I actually use and shoot and carry my Baer. I let new shooters have at it. I have it in my battle belt. I'm not afraid to mess it up. Same for my Tudor. I'll wear it working in the garage and lifting weights. I know I can "mess them up" but it's ok and the enjoyment is worth the risk. I don't know that I could do that in a gold sub or with an SVI.

I appreciate your input - as well as everyone else’s. I am undecided at this point, but when it comes to pistols, I can be a bit compulsive.

I am wondering, of the semi-custom 1911s: Les Baer, WC, Alchemy, Ed Brown, Nighthawk, Cabot, etc., which would be your choice - and why? If your choice isn’t on my list please add yours and why you think it’s the route you’d go.

I'd go Baer or Alchemy. I like their philosophy and price point, personally. I was on Alchemy's website earlier today as I have a big birthday coming up and just had a significant personal financial win, so the discretionary fun money went up. It's not a need and not something I've pulled the trigger on yet, so hasn't happened. WC/NH seem better finished if you like painted finishes. Nothing wrong with that if you do, and I've handled and shot them both. All shoot about the same to me, and that's really good.  Cabot to me looks "weird". they do non-traditional stuff and some of it I love (like the damascus) but the weird button and stupid triggers completely turned me off to all the models I've seen.

the thing about 1911 guys is if you want to head to GA I will absolutely let you shoot the shit out of both my Baers, and even buy a round after.

That's a very kind offer. What part of GA are you in? I get down there very regularly.

Message sent about that. I bet if you posted up in a hometown forum (or your local state forum) a thread "hey I want to try mid to high end 1911s, I'll pay for ammo and whiskey afterwards" you would get a line of people offering to let you shoot. Same with going to a competition match locally to you.

I've been given the ability to shoot a dozen Baers, half dozen wilsons, Browns, springfield professionals, all the "entry level" stuff like RIA/Tissas/Ruger, a metric shit-ton of Dan Wesson and similar tier, all the way up to $6+SVI/Atlas customs. Never seen an Alchemy in the wild yet but will give it a go when I do.

IMHO Cabot undoubtedly makes a fine gun, but their aesthetics are too garish for me to seriously consider spending that kind of money on one. Nighthawk and Wilson are nice but tend to have more modern features like serrated slide tops and spray on finishes that I don't care for. Some options they offer like serrating the rear of the slide are cool, but Baer will do that for you too.

My choice came down to Baer and Alchemy, both are similar in style and build philosophy, and IIRC Alchemy is run by a former Baer gunsmith. Both are traditionally styled, ACW is finished a little nicer aesthetically, Baer is probably a little tighter fit.

My ACW Prime should be here around the first of the year. I'll probably get a Baer too at some point down the road.

ACW?

uh,

Cause:

1 You want one.

2 You have the ability to buy one without consequence.

3 You dont mind spending the money to buy one.

I check the first two, but I can always find something else to spend $5+K on. Ive also never seen a "perfect" to me 1911. So I would have the urge to "fix" something on a "full custom gun".
But if you check all three.... get one.

Frankly Life is too short to really want something, be able to afford it without consequence and not buy it.

Last thing is they really are an investment.... as long as you dont treat it like SHIT you wont lose much on it and you may make money.

Alchemy Custom Weaponry.

If you want to carry it 100% of the time go for it ..you will lose $$ trying to sell in the future , I know from experience,not a good investment IMHO ..as a collector myself I stay with Colt only ..

You can find deals on high end guns. My Guncrafter No Name refused to move despite being a grand less than what it would cost to order. Got tired and traded it for a WC EDC X9 which I never bothered shooting, and now it is sitting and not selling.

I have a pair of Cabots, Natl standard base and deluxe, first run, not the current run. Also a few Dan Wessons, a few Colts, etc. Cabot certainly has the science and mechanics of 1911 building perfected.I find their recent offerings to be overstyled to the the point of garishness. They make me think of Jesse James choppers, very well built , but why so much effort into "style".

I inherited 3 custom shop 1911s from my grandfather. 2 nighthawks and a Springfield Custom Shop FBI Professional. I only have the professional now and when I do another 1911 it will be a custom shop operator with a rail.

I appreciate the feedback, gents! Keep it coming.

Bro where did the nighthawks go?

I’d have wanted to keep at least one of them. But, I rarely sell anything I’ve bought. Other than Kimbers.

I'm team ACW in the semi customs arena.
Next one will be a full hard chrome commander
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Very nice, sir!

OP, I have two basic 1911 pistols that started out as 1991A1 models, no frills, but I had a local gunsmith work them over and install all Wilson Combat parts in both of them, they are identical except for the slide and barrel length

I want to get a Baer or a double stack one day

Very nice pistols!

"Diminishing returns" does not really apply to 1911s. You can get a good quality 1911 for all sorts of prices, but when you go higher in price, you should expect quality that does not exist in lower priced pistols. I've had 3 different Dan Wessons, including one "custom". They were all fine, well fitted pistols, but there is really no comparison between them and my GI Hellcat or ACW Prime Elite. The quality differences are not exactly based on accuracy, but the refinement of the movement of the slide and the trigger, the finish, the detail of the inside of the pistol, too many things to list.

What it comes down to is not diminishing returns, but instead it comes down to how much quality you want. For some people, the quality difference is worth it.

ACW


or

GI


LB


vs

Gave one to my younger brother sold the other. The FBI was more sentimental to me than the nighthawks. I remember when he got the nighthawks he always regretted it. I did shoot all 3 and while I’m no Larry Vickers the Springfield just felt better and it’s so subjective the nighthawks are beautiful no doubt and I keep going back and forth on a 10MM hunter.

If you want one, buy one.
My experience has been that modern stock 1911s are close to what old custom ones were, beavertail grip safety, commander hammer, extended slide release, ambi safety, etc...all used to be custom additions.
Talking about the 70'-80s timeframe customs.

I really like the looks of that ACW! Damn is that sweet.