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USA
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Posted: 12/3/2022 9:24:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SteelonSteel]
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bradd_D: This is some scary logic right here. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bradd_D: Originally Posted By CherokeeGunslinger: I've seen Paul Harrell test out the 150gr HSTs on the meat target. I'm not impressed by their failure to expand, and three grains won't make any difference. I don't trust the gel test here to be representative of their true expansion in a living medium. https://youtu.be/GQtmbW4uGMY?t=528 I'll stick with my 124gr HSTs out of my 4.5-inch barrel. I've seen Paul do the same test on them and they're so much better. well toss his logic aside and packing any of the premium 9mm duty rounds that run perfectly in his firearm and the rest is splitting frog hairs in reality. What path the bullet takes inside the body is a bit more random in destruction that whether you run 124, 135 or 147 grains. May your aim be true. That said there are some crap bullets out there. I bought a case of MagTech 9mm for practice, break in and testing. It was only after I ordered the stuff I saw testing in gel where they shredded to pieces early. Still fine for my break in but I wouldn’t purposely carry it, not that I intended to, I was more trying to find out if the rumored CZ short throat would be an issue so I ran some variety through the gun. And for the record, my carry ammo is 124 HSTs after trying and testing that, 147 HST and a couple other brands. At the time my carry gun was a CZ P07 and some 147s are a bit long for the CZ throats. While I had no issues with the 147 HST and the Winchester 147 JHP Nato load I didn’t want to accidentally restock with a subtle bullet olive change that might hang up. I carried a Glock 22 with various ammo through the years, the majority of those years were 180 grain hydro shocks and that bullet changed several times dimensionally while carrying the same label. (Glad they improved the hydro shocks as in deer I had a number of them that did not open up at all. Most did but sometimes they just plugged or the nose folded over to one side, but the last part may likely have been from the ground after pass through. Often I could roll a deer over and find the bullet on the ground surface which varied....grassy dirt, gravel, asphalt, even lake ice. The Gold Dots also changed the size of the HP and iirc so did the Winchester Ranger SXT have some shape changes. Easy to spot when you shoot a car hit deer and top off from the older box of same ammo in the glove box that is the same box but the ogive, size of hollow point, and skive depth differ. My point is the manufacturer doesn’t always announce a product improvement. And Mr. Molon, thank you for another fine thread. |
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USA
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Posted: 12/10/2022 12:57:01 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NIevo: Nice review. 147g +p have always been my carry round. What mfg???? |
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Posted: 12/10/2022 1:29:55 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DOG556: What mfg???? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DOG556: Originally Posted By NIevo: Nice review. 147g +p have always been my carry round. What mfg????  .... |
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Posted: 2/12/2023 12:49:47 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: Circumstances? ... Sorry just saw this...it was at an ATK ballistic demo at my police department. I had wanted to go with the 147 HST, because paraphrasing Johan Boden, "all guns should be Glocks, and all ammo 147 HST". But we had an HST lose it's jacket in the auto glass test, and the ATK rep said it happens 1 in 1,000 times, but all our shooting are around cars, so we ended up with 124GD +P. I assume that the next gen 147 projectile was due to things like this. We are switching to 135 +P Hornady, as it just kicks ass in the FBI tests. Thank you for work you do on various platforms, I always read your stuff. |
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NM, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2023 9:56:36 PM EDT
[#5]
I've seen the thread but can't seem to find it. Options where to get best pricing on bulk Federal 147gr HST? Thanks
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Posted: 2/13/2023 10:00:12 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AltitudeShooter: I've seen the thread but can't seem to find it. Options where to get best pricing on bulk Federal 147gr HST? Thanks |
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NM, USA
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Posted: 2/14/2023 3:26:00 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bradd_D: Originally Posted By AltitudeShooter: I've seen the thread but can't seem to find it. Options where to get best pricing on bulk Federal 147gr HST? Thanks Thank you sir |
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Posted: 2/17/2023 6:35:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dave_Williams: We are switching to 135 +P Hornady, as it just kicks ass in the FBI tests. What is the muzzle velocity from your duty handguns? I'm curious how it compares to Federal's 135 grain +P load.  .... |
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Posted: 2/20/2023 8:54:38 PM EDT
[#9]
I’m not sure about the velocity.
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Posted: 2/20/2023 9:08:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: akethan]
[#10]
I have some old brass cased FBI HST 147 in my stash.
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Posted: 2/20/2023 9:21:56 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: What is the muzzle velocity from your duty handguns? I'm curious how it compares to Federal's 135 grain +P load. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/LE_9mm_velocities_22_resized-2714727.jpg .... What barrel length were these results from? |
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Posted: 2/21/2023 5:12:46 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By swampvol: What barrel length were these results from? SIG P229 with a 3.8" factory barrel. https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/Chronograph_Data_for_9mm_Luger_LE_Loads___part_1_/20-85661/? ... |
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USA
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Posted: 2/21/2023 5:39:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SullanMarch]
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: What is the muzzle velocity from your duty handguns? I'm curious how it compares to Federal's 135 grain +P load. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/LE_9mm_velocities_22_resized-2714727.jpg .... Interesting, the difference in velocity between 124 grain SP HSTs and the 135 grain tactical bonded +Ps is smaller for your results than for luckygunner: https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm Looks like they were using a 4inch barrel. Edit: fixed a word |
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Posted: 2/21/2023 5:56:30 PM EDT
[#14]
Thank you, Molon.
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Posted: 2/21/2023 6:24:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SullanMarch: Interesting, the difference in velocity between 124 grain SP HSTs and the 135 grain tactical bonded +Ps is smaller for your results than for luckygunner . . . Looks like they were using a 4inch barrel. Lot to lot variations in the ammunition and variations in the dimensions of the chambers, bores and rifling of the pistol barrels will affect muzzle velocity. Legacy SIGs have slutty chambers and traditional rifling. Also, the LG article only used 5-shot strings for velocity, whereas I used 10-shot strings. The 147 grain HST had a muzzle velocity of 962 FPS fired from the SIG P229. The 147 HST fired from my factory barreled Glock 19 used for this thread had a muzzle velocity of 1018 FPS. ETA: The LG article states they used a Smith & Wesson M&P 9C with a 3.5” barrel. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/22/2023 12:13:02 PM EDT
[#16]
Ah, I missed where they listed the barrel lengths of the handguns they used in the tests. So I googled the model and apparently got it wrong.
If the difference is due to chamber dimensions, etc., I would at least expect that to impact both types of ammunition in the same direction. Maybe not by the same amount, but at least in the same direction. But that's not what we see. For the 124 grain SP HSTs, you got a velocity of 1098 with your Sig P229, 3.8" barrel. Lucky gunner got a velocity of 1135 with the S&W M&P 9C with a 3.5” barrel. So velocity increased by moving to the M&P. On the other hand, for the 135 grain +P tactical bonded, you got a velocity of 1034, while LG got a velocity of 1022. So velocity decreased by moving to the M&P. Though this difference is smaller, it is still statistically significant (if you click on the ammo name you'll get more detailed results, and can compute the SD to be about 10, which you need to compute the t test - see here https://www.luckygunner.com/9-mm-135-grain-p-hp-federal-le-tactical-bonded-50-rounds#geltest).* I don't think this sort of result is impossible if everything else is controlled perfectly, but it seems pretty unlikely. So I'm guessing lot-to-lot variation is the culprit. *Side note: I'm annoyed at how they present the data. They sort each of the variables they measure in ascending order. As a result, you can't know e.g. both the velocity and penetration depth of a single shot. This prevents you from asking any questions about how one variable might be related to another. |
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Posted: 2/22/2023 11:13:59 PM EDT
[#17]
Many factors can effect velocity. Ambient temp's, the box sitting in the sun for a while, sunlight effecting the chrono...
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Posted: 3/10/2023 10:05:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#18]
  ..... |
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Posted: 3/11/2023 1:13:27 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: What is the muzzle velocity from your duty handguns? I'm curious how it compares to Federal's 135 grain +P load. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/LE_9mm_velocities_22_resized-2714727.jpg .... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By Dave_Williams: We are switching to 135 +P Hornady, as it just kicks ass in the FBI tests. What is the muzzle velocity from your duty handguns? I'm curious how it compares to Federal's 135 grain +P load. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/LE_9mm_velocities_22_resized-2714727.jpg .... I love the 135+p bonded rounds but haven’t been able to find any in years. |
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Posted: 4/14/2023 9:02:29 PM EDT
[#20]
In the category of totally useless, but still kind of cool to look at . . .
 ..... |
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Posted: 7/13/2023 6:06:44 PM EDT
[#21]
 .... |
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Posted: 7/14/2023 3:38:01 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/hst_vs_vcrown_001_resized_b-2884652.jpg .... It's disheartening (in a way) that there is so much new ammo on the market that will never see proper ballistic gelatin testing. I have lost touch with DocGKR and have no idea what, if any, ammo like the V-crown perform well. The consumer is left to make choices with little to no information, which is why I will stick with HST and Gold Dot. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 7/14/2023 3:43:01 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryHas anyone done testing with Ranger One? Especially ballistics testing? Curious as to how well it performs? IIRC, Ranger-T performs well when it expands, but it doesn't seem to expand as consistently/reliably through all testing, as HST. |
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Posted: 7/14/2023 4:06:28 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: It's disheartening (in a way) that there is so much new ammo on the market that will never see proper ballistic gelatin testing. I have lost touch with DocGKR and have no idea what, if any, ammo like the V-crown perform well. The consumer is left to make choices with little to no information, which is why I will stick with HST and Gold Dot. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: Originally Posted By Molon: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/hst_vs_vcrown_001_resized_b-2884652.jpg .... It's disheartening (in a way) that there is so much new ammo on the market that will never see proper ballistic gelatin testing. I have lost touch with DocGKR and have no idea what, if any, ammo like the V-crown perform well. The consumer is left to make choices with little to no information, which is why I will stick with HST and Gold Dot. He is still active at pistol forums.com |
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Posted: 7/14/2023 8:46:39 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: It's disheartening (in a way) that there is so much new ammo on the market that will never see proper ballistic gelatin testing. I have lost touch with DocGKR and have no idea what, if any, ammo like the V-crown perform well. The consumer is left to make choices with little to no information, which is why I will stick with HST and Gold Dot. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: Originally Posted By Molon: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/hst_vs_vcrown_001_resized_b-2884652.jpg .... It's disheartening (in a way) that there is so much new ammo on the market that will never see proper ballistic gelatin testing. I have lost touch with DocGKR and have no idea what, if any, ammo like the V-crown perform well. The consumer is left to make choices with little to no information, which is why I will stick with HST and Gold Dot. That’s largely because the mouth-breathers, pot roast shooters and Clear Ballistics shills have run-off most of the knowledgeable posters on this site. Very few people are willing to use their precious time to write-up their test results to share on this site for free, only to have the retards shit all over the thread and this thread is a perfect example of that. Gary now refers to this website as “BarfCom” and I’d be surprised if he ever decides to share his data on this website again. …. |
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Posted: 7/14/2023 8:57:25 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: That's largely because the mouth-breathers, pot roast shooters and Clear Ballistics shills have run-off most of the knowledgeable posters on this site. Very few people are willing to use their precious time to write-up their test results to share on this site for free, only to have the retards shit all over the thread and this thread is a perfect example of that. Gary now refers to this website as "BarfCom" and I'd be surprised if he ever decides to share his data on this website again. That's too bad. I really tried hard to make sure to make sure he doesn't have to deal with that and he knew he had a strong ally in me. |
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Posted: 10/13/2023 6:19:01 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fiyero: I love the 135+p bonded rounds but haven’t been able to find any in years. It's not even listed in the catalog anymore. ... |
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Posted: 10/14/2023 1:08:04 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: It's not even listed in the catalog anymore. ... Does anyone know why the Tactical Bonded line went away? Always wanted to try it but stuck with HST |
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Posted: 10/25/2023 3:31:50 PM EDT
[#29]
https://www.recoilgunworks.com/federal-le-tactical-9mm-147gr-hst-jhp/
Free Shipping until...sometime... I've ordered from them in the past and had it on the porch quite fast. |
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Posted: 10/25/2023 4:12:01 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GSAR426: Does anyone know why the Tactical Bonded line went away? Always wanted to try it but stuck with HST Since you're "stuck" with arguably one of the best 9mm bullets ever made, I think you're in pretty good shape. |
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Posted: 10/25/2023 4:22:24 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GSAR426: Does anyone know why the Tactical Bonded line went away? Always wanted to try it but stuck with HST I asked a guy who works for ATK and he said it was because they didn't see the need for two lines of bonded rounds when they acquired Speer. |
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Posted: 11/2/2023 9:50:51 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By deuce_22: https://www.recoilgunworks.com/federal-le-tactical-9mm-147gr-hst-jhp/ Free Shipping until...sometime... I've ordered from them in the past and had it on the porch quite fast. Thank you for that. Been meaning to top off my stash without going broke lol. Bought three 9mm and a couple .45s. |
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Posted: 11/2/2023 11:08:43 AM EDT
[#33]
Aim Surplus has the 124gr, 124+P and 147gr in stock for $29.95/50rd
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Posted: 11/2/2023 5:20:34 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By airgunner: Aim Surplus has the 124gr, 124+P and 147gr in stock for $29.95/50rd |
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Posted: 11/7/2023 7:56:05 PM EDT
[#35]
What was the velocity out of the 16”AR ?
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Posted: 11/7/2023 8:47:25 PM EDT
[#36]
I’m thinking this would be pretty good out of a 8-10” sbr
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Posted: 11/9/2023 1:01:40 PM EDT
[#37]
I’m a big fan of AIM Surplus and have ordered from them many times (and visited their store once). However, Ammunition Store has similar pricing if you order 250 rounds. Their shipping is a little higher (~$15), but they don’t charge tax like AIM, so it saves you a few bucks.
9mm 9x19 Ammo 124gr HST JHP Federal Premium (P9HST1) 250 Rounds - $149.99 9mm 9x19 Ammo 124gr +P HST JHP Federal Premium (P9HST3) 250 Rounds - $149.99 9mm 9x19 Ammo 147gr HST JHP Federal Premium (P9HST2) 250 Rounds - $149.99 Ammunition Store has been my go-to of late because they tend to be a little cheaper, as I mentioned above, and I’ve had great service from them. |
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Posted: 11/9/2023 2:51:27 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 3ACR_Scout: I’m a big fan of AIM Surplus and have ordered from them many times (and visited their store once). However, Ammunition Store has similar pricing if you order 250 rounds. Their shipping is a little higher (~$15), but they don’t charge tax like AIM, so it saves you a few bucks. 9mm 9x19 Ammo 124gr HST JHP Federal Premium (P9HST1) 250 Rounds - $149.99 9mm 9x19 Ammo 124gr +P HST JHP Federal Premium (P9HST3) 250 Rounds - $149.99 9mm 9x19 Ammo 147gr HST JHP Federal Premium (P9HST2) 250 Rounds - $149.99 Ammunition Store has been my go-to of late because they tend to be a little cheaper, as I mentioned above, and I’ve had great service from them. Federal must have released a huge batch of these because everybody and their brother suddenly has them in stock. |
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Posted: 11/12/2023 6:00:34 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: That’s largely because the mouth-breathers, pot roast shooters and Clear Ballistics shills have run-off most of the knowledgeable posters on this site. Very few people are willing to use their precious time to write-up their test results to share on this site for free, only to have the retards shit all over the thread and this thread is a perfect example of that. Gary now refers to this website as “BarfCom” and I’d be surprised if he ever decides to share his data on this website again. …. Well just know that your work is appreciated. Long time reader of all posts Molon. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 11/13/2023 7:42:28 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rDigital: Well just know that your work is appreciated. Long time reader of all posts Molon. 100% Very much appreciate your input! |
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Posted: 11/13/2023 10:31:55 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: That's largely because the mouth-breathers, pot roast shooters and Clear Ballistics shills have run-off most of the knowledgeable posters on this site. Very few people are willing to use their precious time to write-up their test results to share on this site for free, only to have the retards shit all over the thread and this thread is a perfect example of that. Gary now refers to this website as "BarfCom" and I'd be surprised if he ever decides to share his data on this website again. Re-thinking this a little bit more: I think few people go to gun sites anymore for information. Pistolforums.com traffic is virtually zilch compared to Reddit. Even Arfcom is not the go-to place anymore. It pains me to say this, but if you want your info to be heard, you have to be able to deal with the occasional knucklehead. |
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Posted: 11/13/2023 10:49:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: Re-thinking this a little bit more: I think few people go to gun sites anymore for information. Pistolforums.com traffic is virtually zilch compared to Reddit. Even Arfcom is not the go-to place anymore. It pains me to say this, but if you want your info to be heard, you have to be able to deal with the occasional knucklehead. Yup forums like this are a dying breed. Youtube is the modern version of gun-rag writers, full of false information, and much of what is posted on social media is just shilling |
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Posted: 11/13/2023 12:26:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SkiandShoot]
[#43]
Unfortunately there is a large quiet majority that appreciates the technical factual posters in this thread. It's a shame but it happens with the noise posted sometimes. Thank you guys for sticking around.
Unrelated, HST-147 grain is my go to and I had a legitimate "dud". Was on a Glock G19, Gen 2 which was my CCW and same with the ammo. Usually at the range, i'll run 5-7 rounds of the carry ammo through cold. The 4th or 5th round went click. I then single cycled it in a fresh mag and it still just dimpled the round. Unfortunately I didn't keep it but do have a box of random duds ongoing for posterity sake. (had a new Remington dud the other day on my G19-G5). What are the odds of a dud on a HST? What are the odds of modern ammunition in general? What are the culprits in the pistol itself? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 11/13/2023 12:39:18 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: Yup forums like this are a dying breed. Youtube is the modern version of gun-rag writers, full of false information, and much of what is posted on social media is just shilling Thanks for staying around and putting up with the BS and continuing to share your data and test with us. I have learned a lot from your posts and info from Doc that you share. |
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Posted: 11/13/2023 3:41:11 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SkiandShoot: What are the odds of a dud on a HST? What are the odds of modern ammunition in general? I think the last three years have probably witnessed a higher than normal rate of ammunition quality control issues, with the supply chain problems and the demand for ammo exceeding production capacity. I think I recall one pistol primer failure in the previously two decades or so (I basically shoot only factory brass ammo). In the past two years, I think I’ve had four 9mm failures - two with Herter’s / Winchester, one Winchester white box, and one Magtech. The Herter’s and Winchester rounds finally fired after two or three attempts (I was curious), but the Magtech round never worked. That’s troubling that you had an HST failure. I’m not as concerned about FMJ target ammo, but HSTs need to work every time. I know that things happen though, especially in the last few years. Magtech is touted as being good quality ammo, but they’re clearly not immune. |
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Posted: 11/13/2023 5:48:07 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 3ACR_Scout: I think the last three years have probably witnessed a higher than normal rate of ammunition quality control issues, with the supply chain problems and the demand for ammo exceeding production capacity. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 11/14/2023 7:17:06 PM EDT
[#47]
I do not know how meaningful it is, but I have shot several coyotes with 147 grain HST from a suppressed Glock 19 with five inch threaded barrel. Range from 20-55 yards. they appear to expand based on yotes reaction and exit wound. though I shot one several times, he was hard hit. With longer barrel and suppressor they are going more like 1030 fps in my pistol but still subsonic at my altitude.
. |
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Posted: 11/18/2023 1:52:23 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By airgunner: Federal must have released a huge batch of these because everybody and their brother suddenly has them in stock. You’re definitely right. I was at the big show in Dulles, VA this morning, and everyone had 50-round boxes of 124gr and 147gr HSTs for sale. Prices ranged from $33-$39 / box. I bought two boxes of 147gr for $33 each along with a 500-round case of American Eagle 147gr ($149) for practice, which I understand is similar in ballistic trajectory to HST (please correct me if I’m wrong about that). |
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Posted: 12/8/2023 10:38:43 AM EDT
[#49]
Anyone carrying this in their Glock 48? Any reliability issues?
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Posted: 12/8/2023 1:11:10 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nate19: Anyone carrying this in their Glock 48? Any reliability issues? |
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