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Posted: 11/30/2022 9:48:31 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: So I just wanted to know if anyone knows why the FBI dumped the 9mm-147g round for the lighter Hornady 135G +p round? Is the 124-127+p & +p+ rounds a better choice? |
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Posted: 11/30/2022 10:25:38 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From my understanding the Hornady has better barrier penetration I believe this to be the case also, hornady has published its testing to the public. It seems to have the best barrier performance out of all the other options on the market. |
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Posted: 11/30/2022 10:28:57 PM EDT
[#3]
Well I have a 1,000 round case of Federal HST 147gr and that is that.
It'll do just fine. |
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Posted: 11/30/2022 10:29:56 PM EDT
[#4]
Good to know
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Posted: 11/30/2022 10:32:56 PM EDT
[#5]
The Winchester 147gr +P is still available, as of a week ago. I just placed an order for the Hornady though. Not FBI, we just use their contract.
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Posted: 11/30/2022 11:28:20 PM EDT
[#6]
I was talking with an FBI guy recently and he said they are now going with the Speer 147 G2.
I was a little incredulous and told him that I thought that stuff was shit. He said the early version sucked but that got corrected and the new G2 is fantastic. He said it preformed amazingly well in recent tests up in Quantico or wherever they do their testing. It beat every other load they ever tested. He also told me the newer good version has a different colored primer iirc its copper colored .vs the silver colored primers on the old crappy version. I have no idea and I have enough HST to last a lifetime so that's what I carry. |
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Posted: 11/30/2022 11:45:06 PM EDT
[#7]
It’s the ‘in’ thing just like 9mm is.
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Posted: 12/1/2022 9:06:50 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was talking with an FBI guy recently and he said they are now going with the Speer 147 G2. I was a little incredulous and told him that I thought that stuff was shit. He said the early version sucked but that got corrected and the new G2 is fantastic. He said it preformed amazingly well in recent tests up in Quantico or wherever they do their testing. It beat every other load they ever tested. He also told me the newer good version has a different colored primer iirc its copper colored .vs the silver colored primers on the old crappy version. I have no idea and I have enough HST to last a lifetime so that's what I carry. Why was the old version bad? |
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Posted: 12/1/2022 9:36:43 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why was the old version bad? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I was talking with an FBI guy recently and he said they are now going with the Speer 147 G2. I was a little incredulous and told him that I thought that stuff was shit. He said the early version sucked but that got corrected and the new G2 is fantastic. He said it preformed amazingly well in recent tests up in Quantico or wherever they do their testing. It beat every other load they ever tested. He also told me the newer good version has a different colored primer iirc its copper colored .vs the silver colored primers on the old crappy version. I have no idea and I have enough HST to last a lifetime so that's what I carry. Why was the old version bad? The main issues with the old G2 147gr. Load were over penetration, lack of expansion and when it did expand - the "petals" fell off way early leading to a bare slug with way too much penetration. Buddy works in a crime lab and tested it extensively for the agency he worked with. |
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Posted: 12/1/2022 11:54:47 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The main issues with the old G2 147gr. Load were over penetration, lack of expansion and when it did expand - the "petals" fell off way early leading to a bare slug with way too much penetration. Buddy works in a crime lab and tested it extensively for the agency he worked with. Yup. I just heard it did NOT expand. A lot of folks bought the left-overs of the shitty G2 a few years ago. It was cheap and I think they just used it for range ammo. |
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Posted: 12/1/2022 4:41:51 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was talking with an FBI guy recently and he said they are now going with the Speer 147 G2. I was a little incredulous and told him that I thought that stuff was shit. He said the early version sucked but that got corrected and the new G2 is fantastic. He said it preformed amazingly well in recent tests up in Quantico or wherever they do their testing. It beat every other load they ever tested. He also told me the newer good version has a different colored primer iirc its copper colored .vs the silver colored primers on the old crappy version. I have no idea and I have enough HST to last a lifetime so that's what I carry. Weird since they still have 3+ years left on the current contract |
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Posted: 12/1/2022 5:04:33 PM EDT
[#12]
Good info.
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Posted: 12/1/2022 7:33:12 PM EDT
[#13]
Hornandy and Speer both have contracts for full-size service and Speer/ Winchester have contracts for micro service round.
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Posted: 12/1/2022 8:43:31 PM EDT
[#14]
....
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Posted: 12/1/2022 9:27:39 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well I have a 1,000 round case of Federal HST 147gr and that is that. It'll do just fine. Dead be Dead |
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Posted: 12/2/2022 5:15:02 AM EDT
[#16]
My Dept was using 147gr HST in G17
A few years ago we noticed a shift in bullet performance and upon looking into it Federal had added a second canilure to the HST to crimp the jacket to the core more securely. It may have increased performance through intermediate barriers but it hurt expansion on rounds fired muzzle to target. Discovering this set into motion a re-evaluation of our duty ammo and Federal came out to conduct FBI protocol testing with us. I was part of the group that did the testing on a variety of 9mm pistol rounds, .223 rifle and shotgun buck/slugs. We found there was a slight increase in perceived recoil from the 124+P offerings across the board but the advantages were excellent. Better bullet performance and as a byproduct the increased slide velocity under recoil functioned the gun more positively which could in theory improve reliability on guns that were not appropriately maintained or fired from less than ideal grip from bad technique, injured or off hand shooting. We came down to Speer Gold Dot and Federal HST both in 124+P (Hornady Critical Duty was 3rd place). The Gold Dot performed slightly better with barriers and HST slightly better muzzle to target. We opted for HST and since then we’ve had several dozen OIS with no bullet failures I’m aware of |
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Posted: 12/2/2022 7:15:07 AM EDT
[#17]
If the public demanded higher accuracy standards from police agencies like police agencies demand ''better'' ammo, they probably wouldn't need ''better'' ammo.
In 5 years they will all want to go back to .45 acp. Then something else, then something else after that. Raise accuracy and hiring standards and dump ''check the box'' hiring and you could save a lot of trouble and money. I'm still happy with my HST and my stash of 115 grain 9BPLE +P+. Hell, .357 mag is STILL better then all the new 9mm stuff from a round effectiveness perspective. They just don't make a 15 round ''wundergun'' for it and spray and pray is still the name of the game in far too many places. |
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Posted: 12/2/2022 11:09:22 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My Dept was using 147gr HST in G17 A few years ago we noticed a shift in bullet performance and upon looking into it Federal had added a second canilure to the HST to crimp the jacket to the core more securely. It may have increased performance through intermediate barriers but it hurt expansion on rounds fired muzzle to target. Discovering this set into motion a re-evaluation of our duty ammo and Federal came out to conduct FBI protocol testing with us. I was part of the group that did the testing on a variety of 9mm pistol rounds, .223 rifle and shotgun buck/slugs. We found there was a slight increase in perceived recoil from the 124+P offerings across the board but the advantages were excellent. Better bullet performance and as a byproduct the increased slide velocity under recoil functioned the gun more positively which could in theory improve reliability on guns that were not appropriately maintained or fired from less than ideal grip from bad technique, injured or off hand shooting. We came down to Speer Gold Dot and Federal HST both in 124+P (Hornady Critical Duty was 3rd place). The Gold Dot performed slightly better with barriers and HST slightly better muzzle to target. We opted for HST and since then we’ve had several dozen OIS with no bullet failures I’m aware of Interesting info. I did similar testing and found the standard pressure 124gr HST to outperform the Speer and Federal 124 +P with regards to penetration, and barrier penetration. Dd you test the standard pressure? I had zero failures in 500 rounds with tests on G43,G26, G19, and G17 |
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Posted: 12/2/2022 1:48:02 PM EDT
[#19]
From my understanding the Hornady has better barrier penetration And that was an advantage to .40 LOL |
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Posted: 12/2/2022 1:55:11 PM EDT
[#20]
Are they using hornady critical duty ammo now?
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Posted: 12/2/2022 3:16:20 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Weird since they still have 3+ years left on the current contract Maybe it's testing for the next contract or some supplemental one for a special unit. I'll try to ask next time I get a chance. I was also told that the new .223 round was a 64gr bonded by federal also. |
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Posted: 12/2/2022 4:16:50 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And that was an advantage to .40 LOL Quote HistoryQuoted: From my understanding the Hornady has better barrier penetration And that was an advantage to .40 LOL The odds/stakes for the end users, constantly shifting political considerations, contract money, influencer reputations and sheer ignorance all but assures it. |
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Posted: 12/2/2022 4:29:54 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting info. I did similar testing and found the standard pressure 124gr HST to outperform the Speer and Federal 124 +P with regards to penetration, and barrier penetration. Dd you test the standard pressure? I had zero failures in 500 rounds with tests on G43,G26, G19, and G17 Yes we did and the results were close but 124+P edged it out. Keep in mind this by no means is a slam on the other ammunition tested. In reality everything was pretty close. A far cry from the same testing we did on ammunition in the late 90s when caliber and bullet performance (and even reliability in some cases) was not so black and white. Ultimately shot placement is far more important than caliber or bullet design. One of my OIS was with a handgun in the early 2000s. I was using a personally owned and appropriately qualified per SOP Glock 23 loaded with 165gr Remington Golden Sabers (before they were bonded or belted) both rounds fired stuck windshield laminated glass, sheared their jackets, but the core kept trucking striking the top and bottom of the subjects heart. He still had about 20 seconds in him as the adrenaline ran out. Point is no matter what you choose never stop training to the highest standards. Even when you do it right the bad guy gets a vote. |
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Posted: 12/2/2022 7:11:40 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes we did and the results were close but 124+P edged it out. Keep in mind this by no means is a slam on the other ammunition tested. In reality everything was pretty close. A far cry from the same testing we did on ammunition in the late 90s when caliber and bullet performance (and even reliability in some cases) was not so black and white. Ultimately shot placement is far more important than caliber or bullet design. One of my OIS was with a handgun in the early 2000s. I was using a personally owned and appropriately qualified per SOP Glock 23 loaded with 165gr Remington Golden Sabers (before they were bonded or belted) both rounds fired stuck windshield laminated glass, sheared their jackets, but the core kept trucking striking the top and bottom of the subjects heart. He still had about 20 seconds in him as the adrenaline ran out. Point is no matter what you choose never stop training to the highest standards. Even when you do it right the bad guy gets a vote. It's funny you brought up .40. I tested many of those and they performed remarkably well. The 165gr edged out the 180gr and the 155gr but most did decent. I also found Corbon DPX (the all copper bullet) in 9mm, .40 and .45 did very well. With .45 grain weight it was mostly dependent on barrel length. 230gr with 5", 185+P with 4" and shorter. |
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Posted: 12/2/2022 10:12:13 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's funny you brought up .40. I tested many of those and they performed remarkably well. The 165gr edged out the 180gr and the 155gr but most did decent. I also found Corbon DPX (the all copper bullet) in 9mm, .40 and .45 did very well. With .45 grain weight it was mostly dependent on barrel length. 230gr with 5", 185+P with 4" and shorter. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yes we did and the results were close but 124+P edged it out. Keep in mind this by no means is a slam on the other ammunition tested. In reality everything was pretty close. A far cry from the same testing we did on ammunition in the late 90s when caliber and bullet performance (and even reliability in some cases) was not so black and white. Ultimately shot placement is far more important than caliber or bullet design. One of my OIS was with a handgun in the early 2000s. I was using a personally owned and appropriately qualified per SOP Glock 23 loaded with 165gr Remington Golden Sabers (before they were bonded or belted) both rounds fired stuck windshield laminated glass, sheared their jackets, but the core kept trucking striking the top and bottom of the subjects heart. He still had about 20 seconds in him as the adrenaline ran out. Point is no matter what you choose never stop training to the highest standards. Even when you do it right the bad guy gets a vote. It's funny you brought up .40. I tested many of those and they performed remarkably well. The 165gr edged out the 180gr and the 155gr but most did decent. I also found Corbon DPX (the all copper bullet) in 9mm, .40 and .45 did very well. With .45 grain weight it was mostly dependent on barrel length. 230gr with 5", 185+P with 4" and shorter. I still have a bunch of Corbon floating around including .45 Colt Magnum. Some of it was pretty ''spicy.'' |
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Posted: 12/2/2022 11:58:48 PM EDT
[#26]
The Carbon DPX rounds are excellent. I have them in my 10mm G20
Sad part is the niche rounds like that just don’t get adopted by large departments mostly because supply chain. My Dept (1800 sworn) does about 1M rounds a year on contract not counting shotgun/rifle |
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Posted: 12/3/2022 1:45:34 AM EDT
[#27]
Worth looking at this catalog, seems like critical duty performs really well through all barriers.
https://press.hornady.com/assets/pcthumbs/tmp/1410995796-2018-LE-Product-Catalog.pdf |
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Posted: 12/6/2022 5:18:26 PM EDT
[#28]
https://www.ammunitiondepot.com/53619-speer-gold-dot-9mm-147-grain-hp.html
How is this stuff ?? |
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Posted: 12/6/2022 5:48:04 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.ammunitiondepot.com/53619-speer-gold-dot-9mm-147-grain-hp.html How is this stuff ?? The 147 GD isn't bad but the 124+p GD performs much better. In the HST line the 147 used to be top dog with the older design I've done lots of animal tests with the newer 147 HST and every single one expanded like it was supposed to. Here's a link to my testing. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?43447-New-Duty-Load/page16 |
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Posted: 12/6/2022 6:07:57 PM EDT
[#30]
Anything official? On testing results?
Chicago PD with 13000 Officers switched from the 147 To a 124+p. Just can’t find any documentation on the net |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:07:53 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Worth looking at this catalog, seems like critical duty performs really well through all barriers. https://press.hornady.com/assets/pcthumbs/tmp/1410995796-2018-LE-Product-Catalog.pdf Did something happen recently that put such an emphasis on barrier penetration? Yes I know it was always important but now it seems to be the #1 priority yet I have not heard of any "incident" responsible (since the 1986 shootout). Does this coincide with the country-wide abandonment of 40 and 45 and the rush to the 9mm? HST and Gold Dot loads in 9mm were considered tier 1 for LE duty a couple of years ago but now everyone wants a load that penetrates more and expands less? Should I dump by stash of HST that penetrates 14" and expands to .62" and get something that penetrates to 18" and expands to .52"? I'm actually walking around with Speer 115 Gold Dots in my 9mm so I'm probably whistling past the graveyard. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 10:25:31 AM EDT
[#32]
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Posted: 12/7/2022 2:26:54 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ZERO FUCKS what the FBI(d) carries https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/2275/13767A8A-3FB6-4650-B45F-BE917CE8E5E0_jpe-2626954.JPG That's DBI for "DEMOCRAT Bureau of Instigation". |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:03:33 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the public demanded higher accuracy standards from police agencies like police agencies demand ''better'' ammo, they probably wouldn't need ''better'' ammo. In 5 years they will all want to go back to .45 acp. Then something else, then something else after that. Raise accuracy and hiring standards and dump ''check the box'' hiring and you could save a lot of trouble and money. I'm still happy with my HST and my stash of 115 grain 9BPLE +P+. Hell, .357 mag is STILL better then all the new 9mm stuff from a round effectiveness perspective. They just don't make a 15 round ''wundergun'' for it and spray and pray is still the name of the game in far too many places. And if the bad guys would just stand still and square to the officers and give advance notice of the impending use of deadly force I would agree with you. In the real world things happen dynamically and without warning. We haven't had a problem with officers missing. Most have been head shots, multiple head and torso shots, and mag dumps from AR's with most rounds on target. Honestly, our guys could have been shooting FMJ and it wouldn't have made a difference in any of the shootings. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:32:15 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did something happen recently that put such an emphasis on barrier penetration? Yes I know it was always important but now it seems to be the #1 priority yet I have not heard of any "incident" responsible (since the 1986 shootout). Does this coincide with the country-wide abandonment of 40 and 45 and the rush to the 9mm? HST and Gold Dot loads in 9mm were considered tier 1 for LE duty a couple of years ago but now everyone wants a load that penetrates more and expands less? Should I dump by stash of HST that penetrates 14" and expands to .62" and get something that penetrates to 18" and expands to .52"? I'm actually walking around with Speer 115 Gold Dots in my 9mm so I'm probably whistling past the graveyard. I believe law enforcement and the feds realized how many shootings occur in and around vehicles. |
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Posted: 12/7/2022 11:34:50 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ZERO FUCKS what the FBI(d) carries https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/2275/13767A8A-3FB6-4650-B45F-BE917CE8E5E0_jpe-2626954.JPG Do you know of any other organization that spends nearly the same amount of money and resources on ammunition testing? Seems pretty short sighted to disregard that information. |
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Posted: 12/8/2022 8:52:17 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you know of any other organization that spends nearly the same amount of money and resources on ammunition testing? Seems pretty short sighted to disregard that information. Like adopting 9mm, and getting into one shootout with some scumbag bank robbers who shot up a whole team. Promptly blaming 9mm silvertip, and spending our tax dollars on 10mm. Soon realizing half the agents could not handle the recoil, and dumping it for 40 S&W. ...and FBI barbie still can't handle it, so back to 9mm again. that "money and resources" ? 
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Posted: 12/8/2022 1:36:10 PM EDT
[#38]
We issue HST 124 grain. Sometimes its +p and sometimes standard depending on who orders it. I brought up the potential pitfalls of the inconsistencies, but it fell on deaf ears.
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Posted: 12/8/2022 9:10:43 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe law enforcement and the feds realized how many shootings occur in and around vehicles. They just realized this now? Shit the .38 Super came about partly to penetrate Studebaker car bodies in the 20-30's. This topic is very old. I was wondering what happened RECENTLY that HST and Gold Dots from 2016 and earlier were not penetrating enough. The whole "herd" stampeded suddenly towards the more-penetration side and no one knows why? *Has the FBI even shot anyone since Platt and Maddox in '86? |
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Posted: 12/8/2022 11:45:11 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They just realized this now? Shit the .38 Super came about partly to penetrate Studebaker car bodies in the 20-30's. This topic is very old. I was wondering what happened RECENTLY that HST and Gold Dots from 2016 and earlier were not penetrating enough. The whole "herd" stampeded suddenly towards the more-penetration side and no one knows why? *Has the FBI even shot anyone since Platt and Maddox in '86? A rancher in Oregon |
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Posted: 12/8/2022 11:48:39 PM EDT
[#41]
Has anyone found any barrier testing for the hst?
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Posted: 12/9/2022 7:53:05 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Has anyone found any barrier testing for the hst? I did 4 layers of denim, I did winter testing with insulated jacket, hoodie, cotton t shirt, and I did with drywall and the same 4 layers of denim and winter wear with 124gr HST standard pressure. HST performed great 15-18" penetration and .620 expansion using 500 rounds and G43, G26, G19, G17. I did not use a car door or glass If I were to be "more" concerned with those barriers I think I would carry Critical duty 135+P For now I carry HST 124gr standard pressure in my 9's Using my Ruger LCP 380 I carry Underwood Xtreme penetrator 90 gr penetrated to 17" through all the media Using a G33 for 357 Sig the Underwood 125gr gold dot literally rocked the block lifting it up and moving it. Penetration was 18.5-19.5" and I could see how the kinetic energy of the 357 sig would be a great round to carry Using my Shield 45 the Golden Saber 185+P performed the best through the different media penetrated to 16-17" expansion .740. The Carbon DPX 185+P penetrated 14.5"-15" and expansion .819. I also tested many different 230gr standard and +P but they are not great performers out of a shorter barrel .45 like the Shield |
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Posted: 12/9/2022 11:35:08 AM EDT
[#43]
The end user also needs to understand that it’s not just the projectile.
Ballistics is both science and art. A bonded 147gr 9mm at 950 fps is not the same at 750 fps…or less. Barrel length, powder composition for short barrels, standard deviation, etc. Then the art of applied ballistics in trying to visualize the path of the bullet from muzzle through barriers into a threat and into something vital that will stop them, factoring in all of the above. This includes the potential need to use multiple rounds to port cover/barriers. Terminal ballistics begins at the first barrier. |
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Posted: 12/9/2022 10:33:59 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Has anyone found any barrier testing for the hst? https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/Federal-9mm-Luger-147-Grain-HST/20-202948/ https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/Federal_9mm_Luger___P__124_grain_HST___Velocity__Accuracy_and_Terminal_Ballistics/20-165308/? .... |
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Posted: 12/10/2022 11:56:29 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryBy barrier testing I mean Sheetrock, plywood, 20ga steel and auto glass. |
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Posted: 12/11/2022 11:56:20 PM EDT
[#46]
My local agency issues Speer 124+p Gold Dot. In shootings, it has performed very well. I’m on a Federal task force and I’m given the Hornady Critical Duty 135+p at our quarterly quals. I haven’t seen personally any OIS’s with that round, but one of the SRT guys said they went to that round due to barrier penetration, i.e., vehicle glass. He said they did all types of testing with it and seem to like it.
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Posted: 12/12/2022 10:39:12 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My local agency issues Speer 124+p Gold Dot. In shootings, it has performed very well. I’m on a Federal task force and I’m given the Hornady Critical Duty 135+p at our quarterly quals. I haven’t seen personally any OIS’s with that round, but one of the SRT guys said they went to that round due to barrier penetration, i.e., vehicle glass. He said they did all types of testing with it and seem to like it. Frankly, I'm a little leery about agencies that are more worried about "barrier penetration" than I am with agencies that are actually concerned with "terminal ballistics". If you want "barrier penetration" use some sort of ball or a monolithic solid. They seem to be more concerned with "will it go through this material" rather than "will it stop a bad guy". As an example, PSP is more worried about their bullets going through auto glass than what happens when it enters a bad guy. |
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Posted: 12/12/2022 1:13:37 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My local agency issues Speer 124+p Gold Dot. In shootings, it has performed very well. I’m on a Federal task force and I’m given the Hornady Critical Duty 135+p at our quarterly quals. I haven’t seen personally any OIS’s with that round, but one of the SRT guys said they went to that round due to barrier penetration, i.e., vehicle glass. He said they did all types of testing with it and seem to like it. They went to the Hornady round because that's what's on the FBI contract. You really have 2 options as a federal agency, FBI or CBP contract. FBI usually means you're going Hornady and CBP has Speer |
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Posted: 12/12/2022 11:31:07 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Frankly, I'm a little leery about agencies that are more worried about "barrier penetration" than I am with agencies that are actually concerned with "terminal ballistics". If you want "barrier penetration" use some sort of ball or a monolithic solid. They seem to be more concerned with "will it go through this material" rather than "will it stop a bad guy". As an example, PSP is more worried about their bullets going through auto glass than what happens when it enters a bad guy. I'm trying to figure out if this barrier penetration is some new fashion thing that everybody is doing just because it sounds cool or there is some actual OIS failures behind it. I understand that in all the barrier tests, the Critical Duty does very well, maybe it's the best. But when did barrier pen. trump terminal performance? Has some agency or department had some failures with the legacy loads like HST? I spent 20 years carrying a 40cal (Win 180 Ranger), we averaged 20+ OIS per year and I had never seen or heard of a failure due to lack of hard cover pen. |
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Posted: 12/13/2022 9:38:33 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm trying to figure out if this barrier penetration is some new fashion thing that everybody is doing just because it sounds cool or there is some actual OIS failures behind it. I understand that in all the barrier tests, the Critical Duty does very well, maybe it's the best. But when did barrier pen. trump terminal performance? Has some agency or department had some failures with the legacy loads like HST? I spent 20 years carrying a 40cal (Win 180 Ranger), we averaged 20+ OIS per year and I had never seen or heard of a failure due to lack of hard cover pen. That's because that bullet does great around barriers. The auto glass test is also good because auto glass is a good stand in for bones. |
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