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Posted: 2/18/2020 1:07:35 PM EDT
[#1]
How about much heavier bullets? Like 405gr to 1oz going 1400-1600fps?
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Posted: 2/18/2020 1:48:16 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher:
The question becomes does the temporary cavity stay permanent w/ something as small as a 30 grn bullet over 2100 fps from a 5.7 or .22 TCM/.22 Mamba, and is that permanent cavity larger than something from a decent 9x19mm hollowpoint? Do we have to step up to a 50 grn 9x19mm +P+, .357 SIG, or 9x25mm Dillon, or is the bullet so blunt at that point it acts as a 9mm needle & goes straight through? |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 2:53:20 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: The 5.7 has already shown to be sub-optimal in real life. From all available data, the high-velocity handgun rounds also don't perform as reliably as a heavier expanding bullet designed to meet or exceed the FBI criteria. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 2/18/2020 6:29:12 PM EDT
[#4]
After nearly 50 years of reloading many military calibers my experiance with the 357 Sig (my son has one that I've loaded 124 grain XTP for years) and now I'll have my own in a few days, I'd say that the reality is that the caliber is not for the feint hearted, ammo buyer, hand loader or shooter.
If you buy ammo find some that gets you into the 1,400 + FPS range, if reloading do the same or simply stick with +p+ 9mm. I get an average of 1,250 FPS with 9mm 124 grain XTP, safely. I can get 1,400 + FPS range with the 357 Sig safely and that's the point of the cartridge. In close you're at max velocities for expansion and at max range you are still within expansion velocity. Hit and hit as hard as possible from a hand gun at hand gun ranges. The 357 Sig is designed to hit with authority, soft targets are pulverized hard targets are hit with such authority that the target is incapacitated. The 357 Sig is a tactical cartridge design. I don't care that the pressures are hard on the gun, I know it's a 40,000 lb cartridge. The point is for the gun (if needed) saves my life not for me to worry about wearing it out. If I want fun target shooting I have 22's and a nice 38 model 10. The 5.7 lacks authority upon impact. |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 6:32:35 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DMilisock:
The 357 Sig is designed to hit with authority, soft targets are pulverized hard targets are hit with such authority that the target is incapacitated. The 357 Sig is a tactical cartridge design. 
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PA, USA
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Posted: 2/18/2020 6:59:29 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
I am surprised to see under penetration in there. I'll stick with 9mm and 45. The 357 Sig is never going to be a general issue military cartridge today. It takes time and practice to manage the pressure and certainly not for those who are recoil sensitive. I see the cartridge as a natural evolution for combat cartridges, getting a 40,000 lb cartridge on line with sufficient on target energy to incapacitate targets hardened with soft armor at close combat ranges was easy to see coming. The 5.7 can penetrate but with little authority. I've seen laboratory tests done with both the 5.7 and 357 Sig on 3A armor and yes many times the 5.7 penetrated but not real authoritive with the soft tissue simulation. The Sig did not penetrate but in many cases soft tissue simulation was devastating. It's a modern evolution that works technically, a good deal like the evolution to the 855A1 cartridge. |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 10:30:44 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher:
Could you point me to those citations? To be clear, I view high-velocity handgun rounds as starting @ 2100 fps. Anything below that can be expected to perform as a normal handgun service caliber - cutting a hole of caliber size or larger a given distance in flesh. |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 10:34:39 PM EDT
[#8]
The thing to keep in mind is that no matter what the parent cartridge, in the end all that matters once it leaves the barrel is the diameter, the velocity, and the bullet construction. The only thing "extra" the .357sig has over other cartridges of the same diameter is somewhat higher velocity. If you choose a good bullet that won't come apart, there's nothing wrong with it of course. It just seems like (this is where I venture into personal opinion) superfluous. If you like it and your gun is reliable - by all means use it. I just wanted to point out that there's nothing magic about a .356 diameter bullet going 100 or 200 fps faster than out of a "standard" 9mm.
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Posted: 2/18/2020 10:42:31 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4338-Small-Caliber-PDW-s-FN-5-7-mm-HK-4-6-mm Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov:
Originally Posted By backbencher: Could you point me to those citations? To be clear, I view high-velocity handgun rounds as starting @ 2100 fps. Anything below that can be expected to perform as a normal handgun service caliber - cutting a hole of caliber size or larger a given distance in flesh. |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 10:49:01 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher:
That's all you've got? We're talking 5.7x28mm compared to 9x19mm, and you bring up an article comparing 5.7x28mm to M193? The onus is on you to provide data that it is much superior out of a handgun than what's currently being used. You would think that'd be a piece of cake based on all the police departments around the world using 5.7x28 and dropping 9mm. |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 11:06:44 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: 5.7x28 performs, for all practical purposes, like a 9mm when you compare the permanent wound cavity. If you shoot a 5.7 out of a pistol-length barrel, you also get a commensurate reduction in velocity. Considering that fragmentation is one of the few things that can make 5.56 perform much better than its caliber, reducing the velocity of the .224 diameter bullet even more when fired out of a handgun means it's going to perform even more poorly.
The onus is on you to provide data that it is much superior out of a handgun than what's currently being used. You would think that'd be a piece of cake based on all the police departments around the world using 5.7x28 and dropping 9mm. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: 5.7x28 performs, for all practical purposes, like a 9mm when you compare the permanent wound cavity. If you shoot a 5.7 out of a pistol-length barrel, you also get a commensurate reduction in velocity. Considering that fragmentation is one of the few things that can make 5.56 perform much better than its caliber, reducing the velocity of the .224 diameter bullet even more when fired out of a handgun means it's going to perform even more poorly.
The onus is on you to provide data that it is much superior out of a handgun than what's currently being used. You would think that'd be a piece of cake based on all the police departments around the world using 5.7x28 and dropping 9mm. Originally Posted By Zhukov: The 5.7 has already shown to be sub-optimal in real life. From all available data, the high-velocity handgun rounds also don't perform as reliably as a heavier expanding bullet designed to meet or exceed the FBI criteria. That's misdirection - if you don't know, just say so. |
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Posted: 2/18/2020 11:19:22 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher:
No sir: You made a claim - then provided a link that says nothing of the sort. Yes, 5.7x28mm will not perform as well as 5.56x45mm. That isn't in question. The question is, can it perform better than 9x19mm? You cite "all available data", I ask for links, and your citation is comparing it to rifle rounds. That's misdirection - if you don't know, just say so. |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 12:12:06 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: You're correct - I had confounded the two calibers. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2020 12:19:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: JTMcC]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03RN:
How about much heavier bullets? Like 405gr to 1oz going 1400-1600fps? You really don't expect much interest in 45-70's and shotgun slugs here do you? But you don't even have to get up around 405 gr, look at what Roberts writes about 240's in .44 mag. Personally I like 45-70, slugs, and .44 mag. With any of those I only have to hit within a 3' radius to cause snakes to shudder and die 
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Posted: 2/19/2020 12:46:20 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JTMcC: You inserted that info in a thread that's morphing into "small bore trying to reach TMV (That Magical Velocity).
You really don't expect much interest in 45-70's and shotgun slugs here do you? But you don't even have to get up around 405 gr, look at what Roberts writes about 240's in .44 mag. Personally I like 45-70, slugs, and .44 mag. With any of those I only have to hit within a 3' radius to cause snakes to shudder and die OTH, if 2100 fps is the minimum TMV, and we can convert all our 9x19mm guns to .22 Mamba throwing 30 grainers @ 2250 fps, and all our .40s to .357 SIG & throw 50 grns @ 2300 fps, and get terminal ballistics better than current service calibers, that would be delightful for everyone other than the miscreants and the suppressor companies. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2020 9:22:05 AM EDT
[#16]
So, getting back to magnum(ish) calibers:
Is there still a place for my .357mag and 10mm? Or should i stick to 9mms and .45acps? I'm curious now because I've never heard of a magnum pistol round being equated to a service pistol round, but rather the opposite. People trying to make service pistol calibers (i'm meaning 9mm, .40SW, and .45acp) as effective as magnum pistol rounds without the recoil seems to be the goal. Or am i going on outdated information? |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 10:25:02 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JTMcC:
You inserted that info in a thread that's morphing into "small bore trying to reach TMV (That Magical Velocity). You really don't expect much interest in 45-70's and shotgun slugs here do you? But you don't even have to get up around 405 gr, look at what Roberts writes about 240's in .44 mag. Personally I like 45-70, slugs, and .44 mag. With any of those I only have to hit within a 3' radius to cause snakes to shudder and die Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JTMcC:
Originally Posted By 03RN:
How about much heavier bullets? Like 405gr to 1oz going 1400-1600fps? You really don't expect much interest in 45-70's and shotgun slugs here do you? But you don't even have to get up around 405 gr, look at what Roberts writes about 240's in .44 mag. Personally I like 45-70, slugs, and .44 mag. With any of those I only have to hit within a 3' radius to cause snakes to shudder and die |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 11:19:02 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher:
When Uncle sends me back down to your AO I will buy you a beer. 
5.7 is still a crappy caliber. 
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Posted: 2/19/2020 11:20:27 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03RN:
How about much heavier bullets? Like 405gr to 1oz going 1400-1600fps? |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 11:49:52 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TobyLazur: So, getting back to magnum(ish) calibers:
Is there still a place for my .357mag and 10mm? Or should i stick to 9mms and .45acps? I'm curious now because I've never heard of a magnum pistol round being equated to a service pistol round, but rather the opposite. People trying to make service pistol calibers (i'm meaning 9mm, .40SW, and .45acp) as effective as magnum pistol rounds without the recoil seems to be the goal. Or am i going on outdated information? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TobyLazur: So, getting back to magnum(ish) calibers:
Is there still a place for my .357mag and 10mm? Or should i stick to 9mms and .45acps? I'm curious now because I've never heard of a magnum pistol round being equated to a service pistol round, but rather the opposite. People trying to make service pistol calibers (i'm meaning 9mm, .40SW, and .45acp) as effective as magnum pistol rounds without the recoil seems to be the goal. Or am i going on outdated information? Originally Posted By Zhukov: Cool.
5.7 is still a crappy caliber. |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 1:40:28 PM EDT
[#21]
Originally Posted By JTMcC: You inserted that info in a thread that's morphing into "small bore trying to reach TMV (That Magical Velocity). You really don't expect much interest in 45-70's and shotgun slugs here do you? But you don't even have to get up around 405 gr, look at what Roberts writes about 240's in .44 mag. Personally I like 45-70, slugs, and .44 mag. With any of those I only have to hit within a 3' radius to cause snakes to shudder and die Originally Posted By Zhukov:
Kind of off-topic, but a big slug makes a big hole with a huge permanent crush cavity. You're basically talking a shotgun slug and it would be pretty devastating. Will a 180gr .357 need the same velocity as a 5.7? A .44mag? |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2020 2:23:14 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
What does he say about it? I did a quick google search but found nothing. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By JTMcC:
Originally Posted By 03RN:
How about much heavier bullets? Like 405gr to 1oz going 1400-1600fps? You really don't expect much interest in 45-70's and shotgun slugs here do you? But you don't even have to get up around 405 gr, look at what Roberts writes about 240's in .44 mag. Personally I like 45-70, slugs, and .44 mag. With any of those I only have to hit within a 3' radius to cause snakes to shudder and die TC (Temporary Cavity) typically starts to produce stretch injury around 2000 fps, but bullet diameter/weight can and does alter that. .44 mag, 45-70 and 12 ga slugs moving at much lower velocity can produce large amounts of stretch damage. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2020 2:30:08 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03RN:
Its just to show that a specific velocity shouldnt be a hard target but more fluid. Will a 180gr .357 need the same velocity as a 5.7? A .44mag? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03RN:
Originally Posted By JTMcC: You inserted that info in a thread that's morphing into "small bore trying to reach TMV (That Magical Velocity). You really don't expect much interest in 45-70's and shotgun slugs here do you? But you don't even have to get up around 405 gr, look at what Roberts writes about 240's in .44 mag. Personally I like 45-70, slugs, and .44 mag. With any of those I only have to hit within a 3' radius to cause snakes to shudder and die Originally Posted By Zhukov:
Kind of off-topic, but a big slug makes a big hole with a huge permanent crush cavity. You're basically talking a shotgun slug and it would be pretty devastating. Will a 180gr .357 need the same velocity as a 5.7? A .44mag? The small bore, hyper velocity enthusiasts don't always have an appreciation of the big bore, heavy, slow bullet discussions. But they've been killing large things long before Mr. Roberts was born. He does a very good job of explaining why. I like both, but big/heavy/slow works out a lot better for my uses. |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 2:30:47 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03RN: Its just to show that a specific velocity shouldnt be a hard target but more fluid.
Will a 180gr .357 need the same velocity as a 5.7? A .44mag? If I am wrong, then I'm barking up the wrong tree on high velocity pistol cartridges and will stick w/ 147/150 grn 9x19mm, and be happy w/ it. But please illustrate where you think I'm wrong, with references so I can be convinced - and convince others. We are coming to some interesting junctures in shooting - RDS are inexpensive and relatively easily installed on pistols, suppressors are becoming far more common, and even laser rangefinding computers built into optics are breathing new life into old, slow, heavy hitters. I'm not yet convinced high velocity small caliber rounds are the future for pistols - but I am hopeful. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2020 4:00:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DMilisock]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JTMcC: That's why I threw in a smiley face wink. The small bore, hyper velocity enthusiasts don't always have an appreciation of the big bore, heavy, slow bullet discussions. But they've been killing large things long before Mr. Roberts was born. He does a very good job of explaining why. I like both, but big/heavy/slow works out a lot better for my uses. With that said the evolution of the technology available to the bad guy has produced 10's of thousands of potentials out there that have been trained to harden themselves and stand square to their opponenant and present the armored chest shot. Having spent a lifetime shooting and reloading I appreciate the discussion, with the last 5 months recovering from surgeries with plenty of time to talk to old friends and doing research I've decided that I would sell off a won in raffle gun I had no use for and upgrade to a 21st century tactical side arm. Physics clearly dictates that the aim to center of mass tactic needs to go. After lots of looking the 5.7 was eliminated, the effectiveness on soft targets at 7 yards was acceptable but not better than acceptable. The effectiveness on hardened targets is questionable, if you hit an unmotivated target you may be ok even if he's 250 lbs. However a 130 lb motivated target may get to you before you can get 4 of 5 hits in that it would take. Research shows that there are commercial ammunition choices that enhance hand guns from 38 special up to 45 ACP in this discussion. However the choices of maximum energy on target from a rapidly firing handgun, in a package that has similar recoil to a full sized, full power load of a 45 ACP is met by the 357 Sig. Yes on hardened targets you need to avoid the center of mass hold, that can be said even for rifle cartridges. However even when 357 Sig strikes do not penetrate non center of mass armor, debilitating and even fatal soft tissue strikes are the regular order of business. Yes more powerful handguns can achieve those strikes but the question is can they do it in a package that produces rapid fire manageable recoil? With all this I'm not giving up my rifle. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2020 4:08:51 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: As I understand it, the velocity IS a hard target. We want to exceed the stretch velocity of flesh IOT make the temporary cavity permanent. My limited understanding is, from .17" to 155mm, if a round impacts flesh below 2000-2100 fps, while the temporary cavity may be impressive and the round may tumble, the flesh tends to snap back and only leave the hole directly torn by the projectile. Above 2100 fps, the temporary cavity opens so quickly that the flesh is torn outside the bullet's track, leaving a much larger cavity for blood to fill and more quickly lower blood pressure. If I am wrong, then I'm barking up the wrong tree on high velocity pistol cartridges and will stick w/ 147/150 grn 9x19mm, and be happy w/ it. But please illustrate where you think I'm wrong, with references so I can be convinced - and convince others. We are coming to some interesting junctures in shooting - RDS are inexpensive and relatively easily installed on pistols, suppressors are becoming far more common, and even laser rangefinding computers built into optics are breathing new life into old, slow, heavy hitters. I'm not yet convinced high velocity small caliber rounds are the future for pistols - but I am hopeful. I have no dog in the fight, but do have a need for defense against animals much larger than humans and that drives my interest. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2020 4:14:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DMilisock]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: As I understand it, the velocity IS a hard target. We want to exceed the stretch velocity of flesh IOT make the temporary cavity permanent. My limited understanding is, from .17" to 155mm, if a round impacts flesh below 2000-2100 fps, while the temporary cavity may be impressive and the round may tumble, the flesh tends to snap back and only leave the hole directly torn by the projectile. Above 2100 fps, the temporary cavity opens so quickly that the flesh is torn outside the bullet's track, leaving a much larger cavity for blood to fill and more quickly lower blood pressure. If I am wrong, then I'm barking up the wrong tree on high velocity pistol cartridges and will stick w/ 147/150 grn 9x19mm, and be happy w/ it. But please illustrate where you think I'm wrong, with references so I can be convinced - and convince others. We are coming to some interesting junctures in shooting - RDS are inexpensive and relatively easily installed on pistols, suppressors are becoming far more common, and even laser rangefinding computers built into optics are breathing new life into old, slow, heavy hitters. I'm not yet convinced high velocity small caliber rounds are the future for pistols - but I am hopeful. The M1 Carbine is effective in close but does not produce a secondary wound channel to speak of, the 5.56 is so small that without the secondary wound channel the effectiveness drops off considerably at range, at least it tumbles. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/19/2020 5:51:11 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03RN:
How about much heavier bullets? Like 405gr to 1oz going 1400-1600fps? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03RN:
How about much heavier bullets? Like 405gr to 1oz going 1400-1600fps? Weight helps bullets maintain velocity so that they can continue to create a larger temporary cavity over a longer stretch of track. I am not sure that weight does anything to directly contribute to a larger temporary cavity, though-it is not a variable in the drag equation. If you are asking about shotgun slugs, most of them are likely capable of devastating temporary cavitation damage at close range. Originally Posted By backbencher:As I understand it, the velocity IS a hard target. We want to exceed the stretch velocity of flesh IOT make the temporary cavity permanent. My limited understanding is, from .17" to 155mm, if a round impacts flesh below 2000-2100 fps, while the temporary cavity may be impressive and the round may tumble, the flesh tends to snap back and only leave the hole directly torn by the projectile. Above 2100 fps, the temporary cavity opens so quickly that the flesh is torn outside the bullet's track, leaving a much larger cavity for blood to fill and more quickly lower blood pressure. https://web.archive.org/web/20090219104944/http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/ak74_wounding_potential.pdf Simply reaching the threshold also does not mean the entire temporary cavity is converted into permanent cavity, as the stretch speed decreases as distance from crush cavity increases. A bullet that just barely meets the mark would do practically imperceptible damage via temporary cavity. It would not compensate for a much smaller crush cavity, versus bullets that are much larger but produce a smaller temp cavity. Furthermore the velocity benchmark isn't even anywhere near 2100 FPS for most handgun rounds anyway. Doctor Gary K. Roberts notes it starts around 1600 FPS for .357 SP sized projectiles. At 1900 FPS (around .30 carbine JSP levels) temporary cavitation wounding for such a bullet is fairly severe. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?34904-Temporary-Cavitation-Wounding-Rifle-vs-Pistol/page2 For a .50 AE, that threshold would be substantially lower. On the flip side a .22 FMJ may have little effect at 4000 FPS. What that means is that a 5.7x28 SP/HP would likely not produce any real temporary cavitation damage to the more flexible tissues, due to its lack of frontal area-and if it did, it would most likely underpenetrate by some notable amount. |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 7:05:45 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45custom: No, it's not a hard target. Projectile velocity alone is not the sole determinant of the temporary cavity expansion speed. 5.45x39 FMJ traveling at over 2800 FPS does almost nothing in flexible tissue, even when it yaws.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090219104944/http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/ak74_wounding_potential.pdf Simply reaching the threshold also does not mean the entire temporary cavity is converted into permanent cavity, as the stretch speed decreases as distance from crush cavity increases. A bullet that just barely meets the mark would do practically imperceptible damage via temporary cavity. It would not compensate for a much smaller crush cavity, versus bullets that are much larger but produce a smaller temp cavity. Furthermore the velocity benchmark isn't even anywhere near 2100 FPS for most handgun rounds anyway. Doctor Gary K. Roberts notes it starts around 1600 FPS for .357 SP sized projectiles. At 1900 FPS (around .30 carbine JSP levels) temporary cavitation wounding for such a bullet is fairly severe. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?34904-Temporary-Cavitation-Wounding-Rifle-vs-Pistol/page2 For a .50 AE, that threshold would be substantially lower. On the flip side a .22 FMJ may have little effect at 4000 FPS. What that means is that a 5.7x28 SP/HP would likely not produce any real temporary cavitation damage to the more flexible tissues, due to its lack of frontal area-and if it did, it would most likely underpenetrate by some notable amount. |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 7:22:02 PM EDT
[#30]
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Posted: 2/19/2020 7:28:32 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BIG-DUKE-6:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/389087/C2174DAB-126C-41A0-B7EF-EEC85ABCC3F3_jpe-1283032.JPG |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 7:37:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Frost7]
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mgunner9:
If we accept Dr. Roberts evidence then we must conclude that •The .357 Magnum is identical in both ballistics and projectile to the .357 Sig •That the .357 Sig is not superior (therefore equal or less) to the 9mm Parrabellum in performance •Therefore the .357 magnum is equal to the 9mmP I just don’t believe it! |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2020 7:59:37 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov:
That chart doesn't make a whole lot of sense. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2020 8:01:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DMilisock]
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Should we be moving to light for caliber 9x19mm +P+, .357 SIG, & 9x25mm Dillon, then? |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2020 8:03:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DMilisock]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45custom:
Depends on the bullet shape and frontal area. Weight helps bullets maintain velocity so that they can continue to create a larger temporary cavity over a longer stretch of track. I am not sure that weight does anything to directly contribute to a larger temporary cavity, though-it is not a variable in the drag equation. If you are asking about shotgun slugs, most of them are likely capable of devastating temporary cavitation damage at close range. No, it's not a hard target. Projectile velocity alone is not the sole determinant of the temporary cavity expansion speed. 5.45x39 FMJ traveling at over 2800 FPS does almost nothing in flexible tissue, even when it yaws. https://web.archive.org/web/20090219104944/http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/ak74_wounding_potential.pdf Simply reaching the threshold also does not mean the entire temporary cavity is converted into permanent cavity, as the stretch speed decreases as distance from crush cavity increases. A bullet that just barely meets the mark would do practically imperceptible damage via temporary cavity. It would not compensate for a much smaller crush cavity, versus bullets that are much larger but produce a smaller temp cavity. Furthermore the velocity benchmark isn't even anywhere near 2100 FPS for most handgun rounds anyway. Doctor Gary K. Roberts notes it starts around 1600 FPS for .357 SP sized projectiles. At 1900 FPS (around .30 carbine JSP levels) temporary cavitation wounding for such a bullet is fairly severe. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?34904-Temporary-Cavitation-Wounding-Rifle-vs-Pistol/page2 For a .50 AE, that threshold would be substantially lower. On the flip side a .22 FMJ may have little effect at 4000 FPS. What that means is that a 5.7x28 SP/HP would likely not produce any real temporary cavitation damage to the more flexible tissues, due to its lack of frontal area-and if it did, it would most likely underpenetrate by some notable amount. |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 8:32:18 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DMilisock:
Tests that I've actually seen say yes. Spartan Armor level 3 can be cut with light weight non lead hyper velocity rounds as well as 7.62 x25 steel jacket. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DMilisock:
Originally Posted By backbencher: Should we be moving to light for caliber 9x19mm +P+, .357 SIG, & 9x25mm Dillon, then? |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 10:18:18 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Frost7:
.357 Magnum's great performance is often a function of the longer barreled revolvers it's fired out of. Of the gel tests I've seen, .357 Mag starts getting impressive when it can really get its full velocity going. These shorter barrels all that extra powder results in is firing a flashbang, out of which comes a glorified 9mm albeit on a flatter trajectory. I dunno, articles' assertions make sense to me. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Frost7:
Originally Posted By mgunner9:
If we accept Dr. Roberts evidence then we must conclude that •The .357 Magnum is identical in both ballistics and projectile to the .357 Sig •That the .357 Sig is not superior (therefore equal or less) to the 9mm Parrabellum in performance •Therefore the .357 magnum is equal to the 9mmP I just don’t believe it! |
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USA
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Posted: 2/19/2020 10:33:34 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Should we be moving to light for caliber 9x19mm +P+, .357 SIG, & 9x25mm Dillon, then? The major problems with these loadings is that: 1. It is difficult to achieve the right balance of expansion and penetration. Generally speaking, pistol hollowpoints that are traveling fast enough and expanding wide enough to cause temporary cavitation damage don't have adequate penetration. 2. Even if the threshold is reached, temporary cavitation damage is only likely to be observed in the first couple inches of the wound track. As the bullet slows down, its ability to push tissue aside will decrease. 3. Even with decent expansion, these bullets are not very large relative to other handgun calibers. Permanent cavity is a combination of crush cavity and temporary cavitation damage. Increased temporary cavitation damage may be counteracted by decreased crush cavity size. 4. If you have enough momentum going to counteract some of these issues (potentially doable with 9x25 Dillon), the recoil would likely be punishing. Personally, I would say that if you are looking for stretch damage with handguns, it would make more sense to improve and refine fragmenting loads so that: 1) At least the base consistently penetrates over 12 inches 2) Fragmentation is reasonably deep and extensive The Liberty Civil Defense is an example of a round that tried this concept, unfortunately execution is flawed. |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 10:57:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Zhukov]
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher:
I don't give a rat's ass about armor performance. I'm interested in a larger permanent wound than current service calibers provide. [ETA] Think about it: Even the .44mag isn't known as a instant man stopper. If it were just a matter of dumping more speed and mass into a handgun, then the .44mag would be the ultimate man stopper. |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 11:01:55 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45custom: 4. If you have enough momentum going to counteract some of these issues (potentially doable with 9x25 Dillon), the recoil would likely be punishing. |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 11:12:05 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: Switch to a rifle.
[ETA] Think about it: Even the .44mag isn't known as a instant man stopper. If it were just a matter of dumping more speed and mass into a handgun, then the .44mag would be the ultimate man stopper. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 2/19/2020 11:17:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DMilisock]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: I don't give a rat's ass about armor performance. I'm interested in a larger permanent wound than current service calibers provide. I am of the opinion that modern tactics will for the time being require dual magazine/ammo deployment. I'm not sure that the ammo that produces armor penetration will produce 1.25 + caliber expansion in soft targets. The high velocity may in 355 calibers in 9mm x 19 or hotter or larger calibers produce some expanded secondary wound channel. However 357 Sig 124 grain at 1450 FPS will produce effective wound channel in soft targets and incapacitating hits on amor that it does no penetrate. If you're looking for positive and impressive secondary wound channels presently I think a rifle is the alternative. I'm not sure that impact velocities under 2,700 FPS is going to do it. I see it in some of my varmint loads close in at 300 yards a great secondary channel but at 500 yards the drop off shows with a reduction in that secondary channel. The only instant stop is a central nervous system hit. However in responce to the Robert's data the 357 Sig requires max or near max pressure and that pressure mated to a proper projectile to be of better value than the 9mm ×p+. Notvsure Robert's did that. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/19/2020 11:32:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 45custom]
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: I think w/ 9x25mm Dillon, we have a cartridge that has close to the powder capacity of .223, and we can throw from 50-200 grns. W/ 50 grn bullets, the muzzle blast will be deafening, but the recoil shouldn't be that bad. Even up to 90 grns the recoil should be less than a full house 10x25mm Norma. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: I think w/ 9x25mm Dillon, we have a cartridge that has close to the powder capacity of .223, and we can throw from 50-200 grns. W/ 50 grn bullets, the muzzle blast will be deafening, but the recoil shouldn't be that bad. Even up to 90 grns the recoil should be less than a full house 10x25mm Norma. 50 gr is also not likely to be an optimal bullet weight for terminal performance. Even with .223 it tends to underpenetrate unless it's bonded or FMJ. Originally Posted By Zhukov:
[ETA] Think about it: Even the .44mag isn't known as a instant man stopper. If it were just a matter of dumping more speed and mass into a handgun, then the .44mag would be the ultimate man stopper. Something like this would probably be devastating on a thoracic cavity hit, although it may underpenetrate slightly. Truth be it I think most calibers can be near-instant stoppers if you pump enough rounds into the chest cavity. While the IWBA has said that it would take about 5 seconds for someone to bleed out even if the aorta were totally severed, when one actually looks at the tilt test study used primarily to support that assertion, it can be read that 1) the blood loss occurred over many minutes rather than in the extremely short interval seen when a bunch of bullets are dumped into someone and 2) dizziness/fainting occurred near instantly once participants were positioned upright; there was no "oxygen in the brain" that allowed for extended clarity or consciousness. In fact most of us have experienced this personally when we sometimes experience dizziness or blurred vision when standing up quickly after lying down for a while; the detrimental effects of low blood pressure kick in immediately, even if the drop is pretty low, if the change occurs extremely rapidly. |
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Posted: 2/20/2020 8:38:43 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher:
Even rifles aren't instant man stoppers. We need: a) CNS hit or b) sufficient drop in blood pressure absent c) psychological stop. Pistols suck @ b, which is why I'm interested in an alternative approach. I carry around a PCC, particularly when I can't carry a pistol, b/c I'm not yet convinced the Fold AR is worth the money. What I would really like is a paired pistol & folding bbl rifle in the same caliber, w/ the same magazines, that gives me better performance than service pistol calibers at 100 yds or less. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher:
Originally Posted By Zhukov: Switch to a rifle.
[ETA] Think about it: Even the .44mag isn't known as a instant man stopper. If it were just a matter of dumping more speed and mass into a handgun, then the .44mag would be the ultimate man stopper.  Attached File125gr barnes bullets at 2200fps from a 20" barrel 
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Posted: 2/20/2020 12:38:59 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03RN: What's old is new again
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/433221/Screenshot_2020-02-10-15-13-19_png-1283650.JPG 125gr barnes bullets at 2200fps from a 20" barrel |
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