I was a jurist in a homicide trial, finished up Friday. Handgun was the weapon. I only want to say, agree or disagree, prosecution brought up trigger, stock OEM or any mods, trigger pull weight. Maybe it should not matter, but it was brought up during trial and we had to consider that.

Bitch, moan, complain, argue that trigger pull weight deviation from OEM should not make any difference, stupid, that won’t happen to me, unlikely to happen, DA is wrong, defense attorney is wrong, OP stupid, won’t matter if it is a justified shooting etc.

It definitely will not matter or be a problem unless you are on the other side of the jury box, in the right or in the wrong, then it will matter. I was on the good side of jury box and it was rough.

I was considering an Apex trigger/bar for my carry M17. Not anymore for me. Individual decision.

FWIW
Regards

Damn. Thanks for the info.

There are those in the field who claim that for a 'good' shoot none of this matters but a few serious students of the legal system, particularly Massad Ayoob, have long taught and written of many examples of where it was brought up in court and how to prepare for that.

Oh FFS.

Worry about actually surviving a life threatening situation that led to the "good shoot" and subsequent jury trial...instead of worrying whether an aftermarket trigger is going to piss off a fucking jury.

I have always subscribed to that thought.

My personal defense choice of handgun always had a stock trigger, hammer and sear, in other words the FCG is always stock.

The only thing I alter are the sights.

Have you ever been involved in a shooting in the US?

Sad, isn't it, that the question of trigger pull comes up.

The question/focus should instead be on what the other guy/girl was doing that you had the need to use a weapon to defend yourself/family.

And the realization that it wasn't trigger pull weight/parts/work that got the other guy shot, it was his criminal actions.

One other thing, a better trigger pull, as known by anyone who shoots guns, helps you be more sure that the bullet hits the intended target, not some innocent bystander.

Again, sad to see our country becoming so stupid/ignorant.  Someday, we, or our children, will pay for it, too.

Also, have you ever had an attorney 3 feet up your ass and you're trying to figure out how to pay your attorney?  Right or wrong don't mean shit in the justice system.

OP,

Can you provide some additional context to the trial?  For example was the shooter a good guy or bad guy, how did the rest of the jury feel about the trigger pull, guilty or not guilty, type of gun and modifications.

Thanks

A prosecutor will do anything to enhance his/her case! Civil trail will be even worse!

These are the facts of life and everyone who carries should realize that.

I don't give it a second thought and will continue to do any and everything to my weapon ammunition that will enhance my responsibility to protect myself and family! We'll cross that trail bridge if it comes to that but no wimps live in this house

You both obviously missed my point entirely.

You understand that you can win the fight, and still lose everything, right?

Our parents said this and their parents did too

You understand that everything but life is replaceable, right?

FIFY

Here are pertinent notes I took at a recent class, may be food for thought:

After a self-defense incident, win the race to call 911. You want to go into the system as a victim rather than as a suspect:

1. Call 911. Say, “There’s been a shooting at (address).” Then HANG UP. Everything you say, even before the dispatcher comes on the line, is being recorded and will be used against you.
2.

Tell responding officers that you are the victim; he is the perpetrator.
3.

Tell responding officers, “I will sign a complaint.”
4.

Point out pertinent evidence.
5.

Point out any witnesses.
6.

Say “Officer, you will have my full cooperation after I have counsel here."

After that, SHUT UP! Do not let threats of arrest intimidate you into answering more questions. Don’t refuse to answer questions, just insist on having a lawyer present. If necessary, say you’d like a paramedic to check out your racing heart.

Assume everything is on video.

Expect the Rabbit people to be shocked and appalled.

If you are white and your attacker was not, expect to be accused of racism.

Expect to be sued in civil court even if you are not tried in criminal court.

Did it matter to the jurors?

OP, Mas Ayoob has been teaching that for 40 years. Yet, there are people on here who think they know far more than Mas. For those who disagree with him, I keep asking them their credentials: number of courses taken, number of courses they have taught, are they some kind of prosecutor, sworn Police Officer, State IDPA champion with several weapons, how many books have they written, how many magazine articles they have written, are they an accepted expert court witness in firearms, have they ever been a head of a law enforcement weapons training association (ASLET), and on and on and on. I usually do not get any kind of response.

^^^ this..
The question was asked but did it actually have any Bering what so ever ?
Lawyer BS to fill heads with nonsense..to illicit a feel !

And, they were both right.

Interesting. Can you go into more detail about what specifically the prosecution brought up and how they tried to weave that into their case?

Did they try and paint the defendant as trigger happy or looking for a fight? Or was it more of a these modifications made the gun easier to fire in a stressful situation?

Was this legit homicide or an SD case?

DO NOT HANG UP THE PHONE!
Tell Dispatch where you are, and what you are wearing.
Feel free to tell Dispatch you are the victim or were in fear of your life whatever you want...but stay on the line and tell Dispatch what you are wearing and that you are not the bad guy. There is no need for you to be mistaken as the bad guy and get shot by responding officers.

Other than that....solid advice.

Wondering how an Arfcommer type got on a firearms related homicide jury.  Was there a conviction, acquittal, was the firearms minutiae excursion relevant at all?  What the charges were and the circumstances?  The OP may not need to go into details.  Case info would allow some searching.

In my LTC class the instructor drilled in that post-shooting should consist of calling 911 first, describing yourself - as the victim - to avoid being shot by responding officers, and then ask to go to the hospital for elevated heart rate. That gets you more time to relax and contact attorney's without stress.

Legally, I don't know if you can discuss the behind the doors conversations had between jurors.  I also recognize that it is an N of 1 and not definitive.  However, it would be interesting to know how that conversation went.  If anyone focused on customization etc.

To us, as gun people, all of these things can be considered natural enhancements to a firearm.  To someone who isn't into guns, I can see how you start discussing all of the ways that he enhanced the "shootability" of a gun and that can make him look like a bad guy.  It would be interesting to know how it actually played out behind closed doors.

Taking it to a different arena, if someone in a stock Mustang is speeding and kills someone the case would probably look different than if the person has it fully spec'ed for racing.  One guy is just a guy who made a mistake.  The other guy is someone who is looking for a race and probably doesn't care about anyone else on the road etc.  Not saying that is right....but I can see how it could play out.  The difference with guns is that no one really views car owners as "fringe" to begin with.  In any kind of a self defense scenario, 50% of the people are already not going to like you because they don't like guns and that obviously varies greatly depending on the location....TX is going to be more favorable than CA or NY

I have always thought of modifications in the light of an ACCIDENTAL shooting.   Trying to escape responsibility by blaming it on a malfunction or modification.  If the situation was not accidental and you pulled the trigger with deliberate intent, to my mind the salient point isn't whether you had to expend 3 pounds of force or 6.  A point could also be made that a lighter trigger pull aids accuracy and you were just trying to be humane as you did a mag dump into whatever you decided needed shooting...

It's all just mental masturbation anyway, I haven't even thought about modifying any of my carry guns, even my AMT backup .45 that maxed out every trigger pull gauge I have ever tried on it, and read 24 pounds on a Fish scale that may or may not have been accurate/calibrated...

You were a jurist or juror? Your case would be the first where trigger was an issue, and there had to be more to the shooting where you were sitting in trial.

Doesnt matter if you modify triggers. You always can explain that the UPGRADED trigger was to improve accuracy so that you wouldnt hit unintended objects/people. Thst is why I have nice triggers on my HD ARs. Military has heavier triggers that you pull across sand paper to prevent NG, or so the old vets I know tell me. On a rifle that I am not carrying, the point is moot.

Handgun triggers are the same way. You want better accuracy. Why? Because you are not law enforcement. You dont have backup seconds away with your radio. You dont have easier training with an agency range, instructors, free/discounted ammo. You dont have a legal team and a union rep and public opinion to defens you if you miss your target. You are a civilian: you use whatever tools you deem necessary to protect your life/property

Wrong. Cases four and five of this article involve modified Glock triggers:
https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2018/02/massad-ayoob-gun-hair-trigger/

A jury that will convict you on a good shoot using trigger pull as the reason.... will convict you because the sky was blue that day

It would be difficult for me to not stand up from the witness box on my own trial and ask the prosecutor why in the hell I would not want a tool I use to safeguard my own life to be as effective as possible, and then ask him if he is functionally retarded.

Here we go!

Such context the OP paints.  Did it sway the jury to a decision?  We already know a forensic investigation is done on the firearm that is not news and yes it is considered evidence.  Watch the George Zimmerman trial and they go over the same thing in his trial.

I was going to post this

I honestly can't see how it matters when I take the stand and say:

"Yes, I shot him. I intended to shoot him. He was threatening me and had the ability and opportunity to harm me and I felt I was in jeopardy and I would have shot him if the trigger was 2 ounces or 25 lbs".

"The reason my trigger is lighter than factory is because-- 1. I have considerable training (Introduce 2,500 documented hours of training coursework with professional instructors here) 2. When I fire my gun,  I understand that I have an responsibility and am accountable for EVERY ROUND that I fire. Therefore, if some modification makes my weapons easier to shoot well and more accurately hit my target with fewer misses (Introduce evidence about the New York Police shooting where they managed to shoot NINE innocent bystanders with their shitty 14 LB NEW YAWK (Yank?) Triggers) (Which, I can do since dumbass prosecutor opened the door by making an issue of my trigger, and I will be allowed to refute his bullshit) that could threaten innocent bystanders- it is my RESPONSIBILITY to do it. 3. A gun I carry frequently is a Glock 34. It comes from the factory with a 3.5 LB connector. Prior to that, I carried a Les Baer TRS with a FACTORY 3.5 LB trigger. I have vast experience carrying guns with triggers in the 3-4 LB range and no "expert" will testify that those guns are unsafe. I can put a half a dozen World Class trainers on the stand who will testify that a 3.5 lb 1911 trigger does not make the gun unsafe to carry or use, in fact, it is the accepted standard for a quality example.

Oh, and I'm a 20 year plus personal injury trial attorney. Board Certified. I've taken Mas' class. I respect him but he's not the end all on these things, Mas has a niche in the firearms world.....an important one, one that wasn't much thought about until he began to talk about it. It IS important, but it's not the beginning and end of the question. Much of it depends on the exact details of the shoot, your locality etc....Locally, I can promise you, it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference. People want to talk about "winning the legal fight".....winning ANY fight starts with knowing your opponent as much as you can. If this issue will be a potential problem for you given your circumstances, then by all means, consider it. It's not for me.

Thanks for sharing

Which county was this?  Was it a "justified shooting" in your opinon?

I was involved in several shootings with different Glock 26s with Lightning Strike Titanium Strikers (all my guns are set up the same way).  ADA and the police did not care about the modifications.

This was Harris County.

^ This.

People have a hard time with this and get into the "Ayoob" stuff because of it.

There is a legal principal that people need to understand:
"Reasonable Persons Standard"

This principal can determine everything in a jury trial and the hard part about understanding it for many people is that RPS VARIES depending upon where you live.

RPS is NOT the same in New Hampshire (Ayoob territory) as it is in Alabama.

Here in PA where I live, RPS is NOT the same in Philadelphia as it is just 30 miles away in Chester County.

One needs to be aware of the local cultural norms that will affect a local jury's deliberations if one ends up in a jury trial.  It also affects the way the local police will view their initial investigation.  It also affects the way the local DA will view his options regarding whether or not to prosecute.  
This is not cut and dried.

True, I had a friend that was involved in 2 shootings in his lifetime.  Once in Harris County where he was released immediately after making a statement.  The other shooting happened in Fort Bend County where it was also a cut an dry case, however the ada in that county decided to charge him with deadly conduct although he was clearly robbed in the video.  It was "no billed" by the grand jury later.

The only time it would really matter is if the shooting was dues to a ND/AD.

Is the shooter meant to actually shoot then only the the trigger weight doesn’t matter.

In what context was the trigger weight discussed in the case?

Did I miss something or were all those cases accidental discharges?

I'd imagine any lawyer worth his salt would have a field day in a non accidental shooting if the DA tried to go off on a tangent about your trigger or sights or  what color your socks were or  something.

deleted

There is probably no one on the average jury who has a CCL. Even if there is a juror with a CCL, the odds that he has had any formal training are literally less than one in a hundred.

This ignorance is fertile ground for the games lawyers play.

Yep, link says the Glock cases were UD's (I define an AD as a weapon malfunction, ND as user negligence. If the user pulled the trigger unintentionally, it's an ND, not AD).

In those cases, the trigger weights were supposedly a significant factor in the civil suits.

The link DOES however, pose the possibilities of how a prosecutor may spin things, even if the defensive shooting was fully intentional (i.e. "the mods are to maximize my accuracy and effectiveness with the firearm, as I'm responsible for where every bullet goes". "If your accuracy with a stock trigger isn't adequate, you aren't safe to possess/use firearms").

Any juror with common sense wouldn't buy that BS from the prosecutor, but common sense isn't all that common nowadays, and non/antigunners might buy the BS.

BTW, is this a safe thread? Cuz the OP has disappeared without answering ANY of the very relevant questions posed in this thread, eg.:
1) was this a homicide or self-defense case?
2) was it an intentional or unintentional discharge?
3) what was the verdict/result?
4) was the trigger weight a factor in deliberation?
5) or was the OP solely trying to inform arfcom that prosecutors can/do bring this up?

Does that mean I have to carry a USGI 1911?

To be charged with homicide in this state your shoot was almost assuredly questionable at the very least.

"Fine jurors, the defendant admitted he always carried his pistol with the hammer already cocked". GASP!!

Can it influence a jury? Maybe.
Can you be charged for modifications? No.

It's either homicide or not. You don't get charged with "Well he wouldn't have died if he didn't have a red dot, so jail him!"

That's what a jury trial is all about.