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Posted: 1/4/2020 3:45:53 PM EDT
[#1]
be a good suitable second choice alternative to HP projectiles for self defense?
While they were around in the 19th century, hollow point bullets have only become widely used in my life time, and I am not really old yet. 
Placement is key. Put it where it needs to go, and they will do the job. |
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Posted: 1/4/2020 4:21:02 PM EDT
[#2]
Spend an extra twenty or thirty pennies per round for your carry ammo, and you won't have to wonder.
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Posted: 1/4/2020 4:24:55 PM EDT
[#3]
They're fine in the sense that they go bang and cause a piece of metal to enter your enemy's body; there are far better choices however, should you have the option of selecting the best ammo for the job. I cast bullets and reload, and when the world goes sideways I'll have no concerns about whether they'll work. Unless pressed into that scenario I'll keep carrying HST as long as I can purchase it, and when I can't I'll carry whatever seems to be the next-best option that is available at the time.
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Posted: 1/4/2020 4:40:17 PM EDT
[#4]
Good until you encounter barriers.
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Posted: 1/4/2020 4:48:52 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Spend an extra twenty or thirty pennies per round for your carry ammo, and you won't have to wonder. I've read that flat point bullets are slightly better than round FMJ. Also, since these lead bullets don't have a jacket to begin with, I'm wondering if they would sort of mushroom or expand upon impact; creating a larger wound?.( be almost as good as a good HP) |
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Posted: 1/4/2020 4:49:42 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good until you encounter barriers. |
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Posted: 1/4/2020 5:31:11 PM EDT
[#7]
Also, since these lead bullets don't have a jacket to begin with, I'm wondering if they would sort of mushroom or expand upon impact; creating a larger wound?.( be almost as good as a good HP) But, they will still perform better than round nose bullets most of the time. |
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Posted: 1/4/2020 6:05:00 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Probably not, unless you are loading to magnum revolver velocities and/or hit bone. But, they will still perform better than round nose bullets most of the time. Also, they are easily going magnum revolver velocities out of a 16 inch carbine. |
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Posted: 1/4/2020 6:27:31 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good until you encounter barriers. Either swc or TC |
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Posted: 1/4/2020 7:12:16 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's what I read. Also, they are easily going magnum revolver velocities out of a 16 inch carbine. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Probably not, unless you are loading to magnum revolver velocities and/or hit bone. But, they will still perform better than round nose bullets most of the time. Also, they are easily going magnum revolver velocities out of a 16 inch carbine. The set of circumstances you are describing is essentially how the .357 Magnum earned its "manstopper" reputation back in the day. Back then bullet technology was VERY PRIMITIVE. But hey - throw enough kinetic energy into the mix and even primitive lead bullets will expand when they hit some bone. Having said that, do NOT presume that everything coming out of a carbine length barrel is trucking along at magnum speeds. Verify with a CHRONO. I have several practice loads that saunter out of my lever action rifle barrels at under 1,000 fps. I'm reasonably sure they stop halfway to the target for a cigarette. But in general I like what you're thinking and agree. I recently got some coated 158-gr SWC for just this reason. Both cheap and at least passingly effective if the need ever arises. I'm going to do some load development work with them in .357 Magnum using slower powders (HS-6, Accurate #7, IMR-4227) and can report back numbers if you like. I'll start using a 6" revolver but will graduate to carbine length barrel once I've found a load that behaves well. |
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Posted: 1/4/2020 8:03:43 PM EDT
[#11]
That’s the old “smack and chop” theory. Better than a RN profile, but there are so many better choices now. And I have recovered some plain lead SWC bullets from game animals, do not expect any expansion.
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Posted: 1/4/2020 9:13:02 PM EDT
[#12]
Back in the 60’s and 70’s New York PD used 38 Special with 158 grain lead round nose then switch to semi wad cutters. NYPD reported better results with the SWC. Chicago PD had the same results and supposedly switched from the 158 grain lead SWC to the 158 grain LSWHP and saw additional improvement. Los Angeles PD stayed with the 38 Special 158 grain lead round nose longer than most any large metro PD. The Police Union finally convinced the LA administrators to permit different firearms and ammunition in the 80’s.
If I had a choice I would carry the 158 grain lead SWC or SWCHP in 38 Special. I knew some local Officers in the 70’s who carried 158 lead SWC Remington 357 Magnum in S&W 19/66 and 27/28 revolvers. Their opinion was this ammo was readily available and they wanted to make sure they poked holes in perps to make them bleed. Granted this was in the early 70’s and there wasn’t a lot of ballistic testing and very few policies in small PD’ and SO’s. In a 2 inch revolver I carried 38 Special 158 grain lead SWC or 158 grain lead SWCHP if I could find it. |
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Posted: 1/5/2020 12:49:32 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
...Also, since these lead bullets don't have a jacket to begin with, I'm wondering if they would sort of mushroom or expand upon impact; creating a larger wound?.( be almost as good as a good HP) |
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Posted: 1/5/2020 7:51:29 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When it comes to protecting yourself and/or family, etc. why would you consciously select something that's "almost as good"? I'm just trying to determine whether or not, in a pinch, would the lead flat points be almost as effective as a HP. |
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Posted: 1/5/2020 8:53:29 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's not my intention at all. I'm just trying to determine whether or not, in a pinch, would the lead flat points be almost as effective as a HP. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: When it comes to protecting yourself and/or family, etc. why would you consciously select something that's "almost as good"? I'm just trying to determine whether or not, in a pinch, would the lead flat points be almost as effective as a HP. Quite honestly id rather use a a 250gr swc at 900 fps than any jhp servive load for fast stops |
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Posted: 1/5/2020 9:00:34 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would say its so close as to not to lose sleep. Quite honestly id rather use a a 250gr swc at 900 fps than any jhp servive load for fast stops |
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Posted: 1/6/2020 9:30:12 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's not my intention at all. I'm just trying to determine whether or not, in a pinch, would the lead flat points be almost as effective as a HP. |
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Posted: 1/6/2020 9:46:04 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That’s the old “smack and chop” theory. Better than a RN profile, but there are so many better choices now. And I have recovered some plain lead SWC bullets from game animals, do not expect any expansion. |
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Posted: 1/6/2020 10:48:54 AM EDT
[#19]
Yes. Bullet shape will have some effect on terminal performance. Not a huge benefit but if your gun feeds them 100% reliably, they will cause more damage. There may be some deformation of the bullet if it hits bone but do not expect expansion. The slight increase in wounding will come from the "sharper" flatter corners of the bullet "cutting" flesh rather than pushing through it, similar to how a SWC will cut a cleaner round hole in paper.
And if you are reloading, you should be able to taylor the load to take more advantage or the longer barrel. |
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Posted: 1/6/2020 11:05:42 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would say its so close as to not to lose sleep. Quite honestly id rather use a a 250gr swc at 900 fps than any jhp servive load for fast stops Probably more penetration than needed, but it would work. |
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Posted: 1/6/2020 1:19:00 PM EDT
[#21]
Over at castboolits.gunloads.com the animals harvested thread is full of game.
Soft lead bullets expand. Hard bullets punch a bore sized hole through them. Test these for hardness. Linkeroo |
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Posted: 1/6/2020 1:36:25 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Over at castboolits.gunloads.com the animals harvested thread is full of game. Soft lead bullets expand. Hard bullets punch a bore sized hole through them. Test these for hardness. Linkeroo Lower pressure cartridges (say .22 RF) cannot make all that much use of harder projectiles. Magnum pistol rounds can often take advantage of harder cast bullets. |
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Posted: 1/6/2020 1:45:05 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bullet hardness needs to be considered in terms of operating pressures of the gun. Lower pressure cartridges (say .22 RF) cannot make all that much use of harder projectiles. Magnum pistol rounds can often take advantage of harder cast bullets. |
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Posted: 1/6/2020 4:44:18 PM EDT
[#24]
Unless you are casing your own bullets with a custom alloy, any "hard cast" lead bullet is going to be too hard to have any expansion at all through flesh. Even a solid bone hit will not do much to the bullet profile. On the flip side, penetration will be stellar.
The generally accepted idea is that a wide flat meplat (nose) of a cast bullet tends to allow the bullet to travel straighter through flesh and penetrate deeply. There is little if any hydraulic effect at handgun or carbine velocities (IIRC you don't start to see any real hydraulic effects until up around 2000 fps). The deep penetration is important for large game hunting as there may be literal feet of flesh that need to be penetrated in order to hit vital organs. For a thin skinned soft target (i.e the 2 legged kind) I will take a good bonded expanding hollow point every day and twice on Sunday over a WFN profile bullet. The issue with RN bullets is that they tend to not travel in a straight line when they encounter flesh or bone. This means that might not end up hitting the vitals even though you are aiming for them. In order of preference for self defense purposes: 1) Expanding hollow point 2) WFN profile hard cast 3) Round Nose |
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Posted: 1/6/2020 6:01:37 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Too hard means no expansion. Catch one in a stack of water jugs and have a look. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Bullet hardness needs to be considered in terms of operating pressures of the gun. Lower pressure cartridges (say .22 RF) cannot make all that much use of harder projectiles. Magnum pistol rounds can often take advantage of harder cast bullets. A harder cast at Magnum type velocities is very destructive. Water jugs are good for comparing bullets but not fer selecting them. |
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Posted: 1/6/2020 7:01:44 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is little if any hydraulic effect at handgun or carbine velocities (IIRC you don't start to see any real hydraulic effects until up around 2000 fps). If you want rifle performance get a rifle chambered in a rifle cartridge. |
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Posted: 1/7/2020 4:01:34 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a couple of pet .357 Magnum loads that run north of 1900 fps out of a 20" lever action rifle. Impressive as all get out, but I am still not counting on any "magic" from them. No doubt they'll do more than from a pistol but still. If you want rifle performance get a rifle chambered in a rifle cartridge. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There is little if any hydraulic effect at handgun or carbine velocities (IIRC you don't start to see any real hydraulic effects until up around 2000 fps). If you want rifle performance get a rifle chambered in a rifle cartridge. You do pay with lower velocity from the shorter barrel length (compared to a typical rifle barrel), but correctly loaded it is not hard to get over 2,000 ft/s. |
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Posted: 1/9/2020 3:29:30 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: I would say its so close as to not to lose sleep. Quite honestly id rather use a a 250gr swc at 900 fps than any jhp servive load for fast stops Quoted:
Over at castboolits.gunloads.com the animals harvested thread is full of game. Soft lead bullets expand. Hard bullets punch a bore sized hole through them. Quoted:
There is little if any hydraulic effect at handgun or carbine velocities (IIRC you don't start to see any real hydraulic effects until up around 2000 fps). The deep penetration is important for large game hunting as there may be literal feet of flesh that need to be penetrated in order to hit vital organs. For a thin skinned soft target (i.e the 2 legged kind) I will take a good bonded expanding hollow point every day and twice on Sunday over a WFN profile bullet. The issue with RN bullets is that they tend to not travel in a straight line when they encounter flesh or bone. This means that might not end up hitting the vitals even though you are aiming for them. In order of preference for self defense purposes: 1) Expanding hollow point 2) WFN profile hard cast 3) Round Nose  
Makes me wonder why people bother with small caliber expanding bullets in handguns. OP Those bullets will undoubtedly be too hard to expand. I've killed enough man-size game with handgun cartridges over the last few years to have now learned that where one puts his first shot is far more important than what bullet he chooses. |
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Posted: 1/9/2020 9:46:23 AM EDT
[#29]
Agreed. I laugh when people say handguns are poor stoppers.
Ive had great results with .45 colt on deer when i was culling them. Originally with buffalo bore standard velocity. Then my reloads with 250gr swc over 18gr 2400 or 9gr unique. 1200-950fps respectively all just kill so well. I even carried my 4" redhawk for a year but it was just too heavy. Someday id like to find a 625 or 25 mountain gun i could afford. |
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Posted: 1/9/2020 10:07:32 AM EDT
[#30]
@03RN The load I used in the 45 Colton that deer was 9.5 gr of Power Pistol. Velocity from the 4 3/4" revolver averaged 983 fps and palm-size groups were had at 50 yds. with 6" groups at 75. It bears mentioning that this is a 20k psi class load.
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Posted: 1/9/2020 12:00:02 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Makes me wonder why people bother with small caliber expanding bullets in handguns. |
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Posted: 1/10/2020 8:05:56 PM EDT
[#32]
Am using a 160 wnfp in standard power 38 special for a S&W airweight. This allows me better control, good penetration, shoot to sights and matches a target 158 gn round for poi. While am not aware if it meets standard "effectiveness" parameters, it allows me to shoot the pistol more effectively than with plus p velocity rounds, and practice with cheap target rounds.
For years loaded the 45 acp to plus p velocitys for shorter 1911's. Am now going the same route as with 38 special with a wide flat coated point rnfp for my 3 incher. Much more control and accuracy, and not worried about expansion, while calling them target rounds. Would this be as effective as a plus p expander? Likely not by definition, but i can shoot/practice with it more effectively. |
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Posted: 1/10/2020 8:20:24 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Am using a 160 wnfp in standard power 38 special for a S&W airweight. This allows me better control, good penetration, shoot to sights and matches a target 158 gn round for poi. While am not aware if it meets standard "effectiveness" parameters, it allows me to shoot the pistol more effectively than with plus p velocity rounds, and practice with cheap target rounds. For years load the 45 acp to plus p velocitys for shorter 1911's. Am now going the same route as with 38 special with a wide flat coated point rnfp for my 3 incher. Much more control and accuracy, and not worried about expansion, while calling them target rounds. Would this be as effective as a plus p expander? Likely not by definition, but i can shoot/practice with it more effectively. |
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Posted: 1/14/2020 11:20:36 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They make smaller/weaker cartridges acceptably effective against human targets, so you can carry something lighter and easier to shoot (usually with greater capacity, too) without getting into "unlikely to work unless you win the lottery" ballistics. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Makes me wonder why people bother with small caliber expanding bullets in handguns. Bullet manufacture has advanced significantly. Of course there are plenty of .45 caliber bullets made the same way now. The low velvety of .45 ACP rounds made hollow point expansion in the older rounds a little hit or miss. The new technology makes it nicely consistent. Even at slightly subsonic velocities of 230 gran bullets in a .45 ACP. |
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