say you were a Large Animal Veterinarian who routinely worked on Bulls. you carry a 442/642 in a vest pocket all the time for numerous reasons.

what 38+P load would  you consider the best option for shutting down the brain of a bull?

I was thinking about the Buffalo Bore 38+P outdoorsman with the 158 Keith bullet, which I assume will function with limited use in the 442/642

This load was designed for those who need a deep penetrating 357 mag. or 38 SPL load to be fired from lightweight alloy 357's and any 38 SPL revolver. Lightweight alloy 357's develop multiple problems when firing our 180gr. 357 mag. hard cast turbocharged (Item 19A) ammo or any make of full power 357 ammo. Yet many folks want a deep penetrating "outdoor" type of load for their lightweight pocket 357's, so here it is. Whether you are shooting gators or bears in the head, this load utilizes a hard flat nosed bullet, at sufficient velocity, even from 2-inch barrels, to fully penetrate either.

Yep..
this is the load.

/thread

Fwiw I bet they recoil pretty good as well. A 158swc at 1k would probably give you enough power but would be a little more manageable.

When I was a kid, my buddies and I would occasionally stop at the local butcher shop, to watch the butcher work.  A .22 long rifle was always used on hogs and cattle.  One shot in the brain.  I never saw it fail. Your choice of a high penetrating .38 Special should be fine.

I've personally seen the .22lr/.22short fail on a few occasions, usually if the shot is poor and the bullet hits bone and deflects. I also once saw a 158gr lrn 38 special deflect of a bulls nose and lodge maybe 1/4 in the oak? ceiling. Generally when the smaller calibers fail is when the shot is poor or the animal is still able to move just enough too throw off the shot. If the animal isn't properly secured, like maybe working outside with roped cattle, more power is definitely helpful. A flat point or Keith style bullet with as big a meplat as possible is ideal, to help reduce deflecting off bone. But with a proper shot it doesn't take too much, so no need for a full nuclear load pout of a snubbie

you don't use .22's on pissed off bulls. slaughter houses use them and they work but in the field. as a stopper being caught in the chute or around a trailer there is no messing around. I've had to shoot a wayward, out of control bull who escaped from a non covered trailer one time with a 30-06.

I've lost 3 clients ( veterinarians) in 10 years who have been killed working bulls.

Bulls are a special entity to deal with.

I keep Underwood 150 gr hardcast full wadcutter rated at 1,000 fps in my 642. I've used it to butcher a few cows and it works great. On very large or mean bulls nothing beats a 12ga slug to the brain pan. Hogs always get a 22 lr out of a rifle or 22 mag from a handgun.

Our local stockyards had a bull wig out and basically go insane so bad they called the police. At that time the PD carried 4" Smiths with 125 HP+P. Bull was confined to a small pen so shooting it in the head wasn't a problem. Bull just shook his head with every shot. Forget how many .38's were tried but the officer resorted to the shotgun with 4 buck. It made a big mess.

I talked with one of our experienced animal control officers about putting down cattle, which they had plenty of experience. The cow has to be facing you. Visualize an "X" running from the eyes to the opposite ear. Bullet needs to hit the center to "insure" a brain killing shot. Off the center you start running into too much bone, etc.

I'd barely trust a 6" .357 Mag with 158gr. Its why I have a Ruger 4 5/8" .44 Mag and one in .45 Colt. One of my dad's neighbors got killed by some out of control cattle. No witnesses so no firm idea what happened except he was crushed to death.

My father was a large animal veterinarian in rural Florida in the 1960's to 1980's.  He had one of those black leather medical bag that he carried in his car all the time.  In the bottom of it was a 4" S&W model 10 revolver  loaded with 158gr SWC cast bullet and stiff load of Unique powder that he loaded.  In the 1990's I found a partial box of this same ammo in my dad's closet and I shot in my 4" model 10 over my chronograph.  First 6 shots gave average velocity of 980 fps which was faster than factory +P loads.  My dad doesn't remember how much Unique powder was used.
He never shot any large farm animal with it but he did shoot and kill a large loose dog that was harrasing a horse and put down a buck that was hit by a car.

I came here to say the very same thing... The 150 grain Hard Cast Full Wad Cutters @ 1,000fps are devastating on thick hide, pelt, and bone even from a 1 7/8" barrel because they will run very close or even over depending on the chamber throat being tight from an M36 Smith or my Wife's M642 snubbies. I actually discussed on email with Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore in multiple detailed emails about this very load. It was 6-7 years ago when me and the wife first got in "J" frame and "D" frame snubs.

I think it closely mimics the old .38Special NYC or FBI loads cops and agents carried that were known fight stoppers of man. However, I remember Tim saying that he would take a Smith Snub Chief's Special on long hikes by himself in the woods as a teenager shooting a lot of things with that load. He loves this load for what it does hitting animal bone. The flat Meplate, hard cast lead pill running close to 1K fps hits hard and drills strait with excellent penetration on pelt and thick bones... it becomes a crusher of muscle tissue during it's travels as well Tim said. So, I bought 5-6 boxes of the non+P version from him that are nice shooting and advertised and truly do push ballpark 1,000fps.

I have some 215 grain cast lead .38 special bullets.

During the double tap ammo coupon days a few years back I bought some stuff similar to what has been described by others and I carry a 642 often.

Heavy bullet and don't go for expansion.  You need to practice with the gun a fair bit if you think you might be shooting at a moving and mad target.

OP are you talking in a chute? If so that ammo would be about ideal imo.

When they are "out and about" it's a whole nuther world of course and that's a major factor in my carry gun being a 329PD. Making a shot to the brain of a moving, belligerent bull is quite a chore.

out of control in the chutes, basically a put down before someone gets hurt treatment. I really thing this load would be ideal.

in the wild away from the pens they get the 30-06 treatment.

You are spot on with your ammo choice, imo. It IS about ideal in store bought .38 Spl for your use, others would be just as good if you made your own.

A bigger bore would be more ideal but "in the chutes" it's much less of a thing. I think you've chosen very wisely.

I also highly agree with your 30-06 choice. Especially 200 gr. Partitions but many, many other bullet choices will do the work. And many more chamberings, but 30-06 is good to go as you already know.

Out of control bulls are a world of their own

I'm late to the party, so this seems to have already been settled, but I wanted to make a comment.



When I was a kid, my paw paw owned and operated his own butcher shop.  He dispatched everything with single .22 Short fired from a rifle at very close range, and like you, I never saw it fail.

That said, he was also never dealing with a charging bull, which seems to be OP's concern.  I agree that a heavy, hard cast bullet moving as fast as the gun can throw it is the way to go.