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Posted: 1/19/2021 5:15:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/19/2021 6:27:30 PM EST by HOGHUNTERS]
I know, I know. There are those that believe that you can't shoot a match, or carry one for EDC and be proficient,  let alone effective with one. I disagree.  Anyone shoot 10mm full power loads in matches out there?
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 7:16:15 PM EST
I once shot A match with a 10mm. It was a steel plate match & it did indeed knock 'em down.

Recoil wasn't anything to write home about as it was an all-steel 1911 I used. But it WAS fun.  

If I had a boxcar full of 10mm ammo, it'd be all I shoot. I just love this caliber!
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 7:54:47 PM EST
I tried competition shooting many years ago. At the same time I got into reloading. I would load lover power .45 and use a lighter spring in a Colt Gold Cup Trophy.

Today I shoot exclusively (non-competition) 10mm. I just like the round. I have a Sig P220 Legion and a Dan Wesson Wraith both in 10. Love shooting both...love the round...not the cost.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 9:30:32 PM EST
I compete with full power magnums in my 2.75" m66.

Not 10mm but 10mm is close to .357
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 9:42:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/19/2021 9:43:39 PM EST by Derek45]
I have never seen a 10mm shooter,....in decades of USPSA/IPSC, 3-gun, steel or IDPA

.
Link Posted: 1/20/2021 1:39:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/20/2021 1:40:42 AM EST by NVGdude]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Derek45:

I have never seen a 10mm shooter,....in decades of USPSA/IPSC, 3-gun, steel or IDPA

.
View Quote


I considered using my Delta Elite for Steel Challenge, if nothing else it would be pretty clear "that's MY brass"
It meets the requirements for USPSA single stack.

IDPA rules are kind of funky, and are basically a "thou shalt shoot .45 acp club".  You could shoot 10mm, but that would put you in Enhanced Service Pistol instead of Custom Defense Pistol.  CDP has to be .45.  

Frankly though, I have always found the .45acp to be more accurate, or at least easier to develop a more accurate load compared to 10mm



Link Posted: 1/20/2021 7:47:35 AM EST
I have a friend that shot full power 10mm in IDPA for a year. He shot his carry (Glock 29) in the bug division. He did OK with it but then decided he wanted to actually be competitive and moved on to other guns in other divisions.
Link Posted: 1/20/2021 8:11:20 AM EST
people can and do shoot dumb shit in matches. I shot my first 3 gun with a pistol grip shotgun, walther, and DPMS carbine. I've seen footage of people shooting matches with DEs or lever guns in 3 gun. Just because you can do it by the rules doesn't mean you will be competitive.

If you like the round and you're not trying to win, go fucking nuts. It's not cheap but matches aren't.

I've shot a number of matches with my carry guns and ammo just to get better practice with them. Drawing from actual concealment instead of the weighted cheater IDPA vests. Used to make fun of the 3 gun guys who shot in armor but now I get it and wish I did myself
Link Posted: 1/20/2021 8:35:00 AM EST
I would say that has a lot to do with not being cost effective with ammunition,  a lack of options unless your happy shooting stock or carry class.
My friends and I shot IPSC with our Glocks back in the day and we're competitive with them. We shot full power and didn't have an issue with recoil management.  
We were also deep into handloading and loved the ballistics it provided. Although a lot of guys at the time we're shooting the .40 to make major class and not spend a fortune on a 1911.
Link Posted: 1/20/2021 3:51:48 PM EST
You can compete with anything want.  That does not look fun at all.

Link Posted: 1/20/2021 4:29:05 PM EST
I have never seen a 10mm at a USPSA match, but I have seen several at various bowling pin matches.
Link Posted: 1/20/2021 4:48:26 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Superluckycat:
You can compete with anything want.  That does not look fun at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMjDzMZY2Yw
View Quote


That made my everything hurt watching it.
Link Posted: 1/20/2021 4:56:41 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Superluckycat:
You can compete with anything want.  That does not look fun at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMjDzMZY2Yw
View Quote



It looks to me like he's having lot's of fun.
Link Posted: 1/20/2021 8:18:52 PM EST
I use full power 10mm in the “.45” class at my clubs pin shoots. Takes some horsepower to knock those pins of the back of the table.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 6:47:32 AM EST
Years ago we had a Dr., who is a regular competitor, show up with his wide body 2011 style 10mm at a USPSA match.  Don't recall how he did but do remember him frantically trying to find all of his brass after stages.
Only seen him bring it that one time.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 7:42:10 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 8:40:26 AM EST
So far, a few attempts to shoot to experiment. If ammunition was the same price as 9mm, and you were guaranteed your brass back would you want to try more matches?
For the guys who own and shoot 10mm, in a non competition setting, how confident would you be carrying as SD in EDC. Would you feel the (recoil) outweighs the ballistic benefits for SD?
I personally love the 10mm cartridge.  I would have no problem carrying any of mine for EDC if the ammunition was as available as 9mm (was).
I think more shooters would also if they had the opportunity to train with this caliber and get comfortable with their weapon.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 8:58:29 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HOGHUNTERS:
So far, a few attempts to shoot to experiment. If ammunition was the same price as 9mm, and you were guaranteed your brass back would you want to try more matches?
For the guys who own and shoot 10mm, in a non competition setting, how confident would you be carrying as SD in EDC. Would you feel the (recoil) outweighs the ballistic benefits for SD?
I personally love the 10mm cartridge.  I would have no problem carrying any of mine for EDC if the ammunition was as available as 9mm (was).
I think more shooters would also if they had the opportunity to train with this caliber and get comfortable with their weapon.
View Quote


No.

With self defense loads, the 10mm is effectively a .40 S&W with even more recoil. Hell, lots of big ammo manufacturers load their 10mm SD ammo to near .40 S&W velocities.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 8:58:30 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Derek45:

I have never seen a 10mm shooter,....in decades of USPSA/IPSC, 3-gun, steel or IDPA

.
View Quote


When I first started shooting IPSC back in 1994, I used a Smith 1006 for the first year.  Later I moved to a Para P16 all decked out with the go-fast shit.  My scores didn't improve at all.

Tony
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 9:00:50 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HOGHUNTERS:
So far, a few attempts to shoot to experiment. If ammunition was the same price as 9mm, and you were guaranteed your brass back would you want to try more matches? still no. if you're in the same class as 9mm you may as well go 9mm for the increased capacity and less recoil. Anything more than a lightly sprung, heavy 9mm with mouse fart ammo is going to be slower
For the guys who own and shoot 10mm, in a non competition setting, how confident would you be carrying as SD in EDC. Would you feel the (recoil) outweighs the ballistic benefits for SD? no problem with it. I don't have the need personally because I'm not really in bear country and I live in the south, so not a lot of people with a shit ton of layers. 9mm guns are typically smaller and easier to carry. I can carry 13 rounds in a sig 365xl with half the weight and size of a 10mm 1911. I hate glocks so that's out for me.
I personally love the 10mm cartridge.  I would have no problem carrying any of mine for EDC if the ammunition was as available as 9mm (was).
I think more shooters would also if they had the opportunity to train with this caliber and get comfortable with their weapon. meh. While it's useful to train with full house loads, realistically splits is not the difference between 1st and 10th place and is unlikely to be the determining factor in actually needing the gun. I put probably 10-30x the number of rounds through 22 trainers as I did my game guns and the skills (for pretty much everything except flip) carry over no problem.
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If you like 10mm go nuts. It's a cool round. I shoot mostly 45 because I like it, even though I know that on paper 9mm is "better". If you're trying to get some trigger time under match conditions then go for it. If you are trying to win action matches that aren't bowling pin based you are better served with many others.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 9:18:01 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 9:53:31 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HOGHUNTERS:
So far, a few attempts to shoot to experiment. If ammunition was the same price as 9mm, and you were guaranteed your brass back would you want to try more matches?
For the guys who own and shoot 10mm, in a non competition setting, how confident would you be carrying as SD in EDC. Would you feel the (recoil) outweighs the ballistic benefits for SD?
I personally love the 10mm cartridge.  I would have no problem carrying any of mine for EDC if the ammunition was as available as 9mm (was).
I think more shooters would also if they had the opportunity to train with this caliber and get comfortable with their weapon.
View Quote


This depends on what YOU are trying to get from a USPSA match. Are you just trying to run your gun, and focus on gun handling skills? Run your 10mm and that would be fine. Are you trying to compete? That's a different story. You could download the 10mm to 165 power factor and be just like everyone else. If you're going to shoot full power ammo you won't be competitive.

I shoot USPSA to be competitive and to play the game, therefore for me PERSONALLY, I wouldn't shoot 10mm at a USPSA match.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 9:56:30 AM EST
Originally Posted By HOGHUNTERS:
I know, I know. There are those that believe that you can't shoot a match, or carry one for EDC and be proficient,  let alone effective with one. I disagree.  Anyone shoot 10mm full power loads in matches out there?
View Quote
I used to shoot IDPA w/ my Glock 29.   I joked at the time that I should get some of the original Doubletap ammo that was the 135 Nosler and the round ball under it for the scoring advantage but never did it.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 12:40:38 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Derek45:

I have never seen a 10mm shooter,....in decades of USPSA/IPSC, 3-gun, steel or IDPA

.
View Quote


Other than an occasional MM/SS in IDPA that just shows up with one as a one off... same.

I’ve certainly never seen a serious competitor use 10mm for anything, ever.  Why would they?
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 12:47:28 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HOGHUNTERS:
So far, a few attempts to shoot to experiment. If ammunition was the same price as 9mm, and you were guaranteed your brass back would you want to try more matches?
For the guys who own and shoot 10mm, in a non competition setting, how confident would you be carrying as SD in EDC. Would you feel the (recoil) outweighs the ballistic benefits for SD?
I personally love the 10mm cartridge.  I would have no problem carrying any of mine for EDC if the ammunition was as available as 9mm (was).
I think more shooters would also if they had the opportunity to train with this caliber and get comfortable with their weapon.
View Quote


What real world ballistic advantage in a self defense scenario does that translate to, exactly?
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 12:51:45 PM EST
This is a carry over from the Winter Carry Ammo thread that got out of hand.

Yes, I do. I shoot it in IDPA enough to know that I have no problems with it as a carry gun/load. Full sized, steel framed 1911.

The recoil is no where near what a full house .357 load is in a S&W model 19.

Internet experts shouted me down on the other thread. They could not believe it possible. I was ordered by the www.commandos to prove it  and quantify "competent".

I'm a little flabbergasted that folks think the recoil from a 10mm is all that much. It aint. Some folks read about guns on the internet. Some folks actually shoot them.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 12:53:38 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:


Other than an occasional MM/SS in IDPA that just shows up with one as a one off... same.

I’ve certainly never seen a serious competitor use 10mm for anything, ever.  Why would they?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
Originally Posted By Derek45:

I have never seen a 10mm shooter,....in decades of USPSA/IPSC, 3-gun, steel or IDPA

.


Other than an occasional MM/SS in IDPA that just shows up with one as a one off... same.

I’ve certainly never seen a serious competitor use 10mm for anything, ever.  Why would they?


They wouldn't. You are 100% correct. But some folks shoot things like IDPA for the sole purpose of getting trigger time with their carry gun.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 2:33:36 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:


What real world ballistic advantage in a self defense scenario does that translate to, exactly?
View Quote
Knockdown power brah.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 2:41:12 PM EST
I also don't feel a huge difference in recoil between .45 and 10mm. I would call it negligible at best.
People who feel completely comfortable and confident with 10mm for SD is GTG. Type of carry, transition from drawing to sights on and neutralizing the threat is what matters.
I don't advocate the use of a timer fir SD classes, for competition. .....of course.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 2:52:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/21/2021 3:05:03 PM EST by 45-Seventy]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TradWoodsman:
This is a carry over from the Winter Carry Ammo thread that got out of hand.

Yes, I do. I shoot it in IDPA enough to know that I have no problems with it as a carry gun/load. Full sized, steel framed 1911.

The recoil is no where near what a full house .357 load is in a S&W model 19.

Internet experts shouted me down on the other thread. They could not believe it possible. I was ordered by the www.commandos to prove it  and quantify "competent".

I'm a little flabbergasted that folks think the recoil from a 10mm is all that much. It aint. Some folks read about guns on the internet. Some folks actually shoot them.
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It isn’t, but it still significantly impacts your ability to run it fast and accurately under stress particularly when the bulk of people touting it consider 500 rounds a year to be a high round count.

I’m not saying it’s impossible, not by any means. I’m just not seeing people actually doing it in practice. I’m not even saying that I haven’t known people to run it fast and accurately... But the people with those skill sets also aren’t seriously advocating for its general purpose use because they actually shoot enough to understand why it’s a limiting factor for little real world benefit.

I’m sure you’re the exception, though.  Love to see a 10-10-10 or an El-Prez on video.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 2:54:37 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HOGHUNTERS:
I also don't feel a huge difference in recoil between .45 and 10mm. I would call it negligible at best.
People who feel completely comfortable and confident with 10mm for SD is GTG. Type of carry, transition from drawing to sights on and neutralizing the threat is what matters.
I don't advocate the use of a timer fir SD classes, for competition. .....of course.
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Without a timer what metric do you track?

Without a metric how do you objectively gauge performance?

Without objectively gauging performance, how do you refine efficiency?

I’d love to hear a cognizant explanation for this.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 3:10:09 PM EST
I really can't give you a metric to go by except when I was younger I would win matches, until I got to master class, and unless you are just the baddest most consistent MF in the area, you rarely win unless those guys have a bad day, of don't show up for the match altogether.  Same thing when I shot on my dept. pistol team. Won my class at the nationals in SS, then expert. Got to master class and basically did about average for the bulk of the shooters. I'm retired now and shoot better still than 95% of the guys I shoot with. Speed isn't a huge concern as to movement due mostly to hitting an IED  in Ramadi. Presentation from cover and firing are still very proficient,  but I don't run a timer.
Unless things have changed drastically, 99.6% of the bad guys aren't running timers while they train to shoot. I have noticed the uptick in them buying much better weapons.....
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 3:19:21 PM EST
We have a certain Grand Master in Production who places at the top in major matches on here.  He shoots a Glock 34.  He stated he gave Limited a try with a G35 and his times increased by 25% on standard drills.  Recoil is a thing.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 3:39:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/21/2021 3:40:19 PM EST by HOGHUNTERS]
No argument about recoil being a thing. Carrying a 9mm, .40, .45, 10mm for self defense, double taps in the A zone at standard distance are easily doable from all of those. One one hundredth of a second is not going to impact a SD situation, better balistics and shot placement over rule an A and C zone hit with faster times. And that's on the range, not under real stress....
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 3:57:12 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HOGHUNTERS:
I really can't give you a metric to go by except when I was younger I would win matches, until I got to master class, and unless you are just the baddest most consistent MF in the area, you rarely win unless those guys have a bad day, of don't show up for the match altogether.  Same thing when I shot on my dept. pistol team. Won my class at the nationals in SS, then expert. Got to master class and basically did about average for the bulk of the shooters. I'm retired now and shoot better still than 95% of the guys I shoot with. Speed isn't a huge concern as to movement due mostly to hitting an IED  in Ramadi. Presentation from cover and firing are still very proficient,  but I don't run a timer.
Unless things have changed drastically, 99.6% of the bad guys aren't running timers while they train to shoot. I have noticed the uptick in them buying much better weapons.....
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Beyond some chest thumping that did zero to actually answer the question but ok.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 4:08:35 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 4:10:02 PM EST
Other threads we have gone back and forth on things and you always ask for a type of experience or credential to judge me by, I give you a slice from my past experience and now it's chest thumping. ...
Guessing if I'm not a current grand master that you have witnessed in person I have absolutely nothing of value to contribute to people that want answers or training from.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 4:19:16 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HOGHUNTERS:
Other threads we have gone back and forth on things and you always ask for a type of experience or credential to judge me by, I give you a slice from my past experience and now it's chest thumping. ...
Guessing if I'm not a current grand master that you have witnessed in person I have absolutely nothing of value to contribute to people that want answers or training from.
View Quote


The question was with regards to why people should not train with a timer.

If you’re not training with a timer, how are you judging performance metrics in training?
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 4:19:32 PM EST
Guessing the question can go both ways,
Been in many SD shootings?
Seen any combat?
I normally wouldn't ask that of anyone unless we were talking face to face and and I could empathize with the person.
Your comments show that you are definitely a numbers person and you track everything that way.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 4:26:12 PM EST
Timers can be a useful tool for competition shooters, I rely on consistent movement and shot placement for reaction to threat scenarios.  
It is quite possible to (overclock) your movements causing other issues. I'm completely confident in my abilities under stress and weapon control under pretty much any circumstances.
I bet my life, and more importantly,  the life of my wife everytime we walk out of the house. And that's all that really matters, is her saftey.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 4:27:07 PM EST
Damn, if we keep this up I can break 200 today....
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 4:27:35 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 4:30:00 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HOGHUNTERS:
Guessing the question can go both ways,
Been in many SD shootings?
Seen any combat?
I normally wouldn't ask that of anyone unless we were talking face to face and and I could empathize with the person.
Your comments show that you are definitely a numbers person and you track everything that way.
View Quote


Uh, no, it means he is results driven, and there isn't a (non-idiot) trainer on this planet that doesn't recognize the value of, and use, a timer when doing drills. There's a few outliers, but even if they don't time individual drills...they sure as shit do time their end of day tests and pass/fails. If they don't do it directly on a timer, their targets are on a timer and get out of the way if you don't hit them in the par time.

You can't say "45 recoils like a 10mm" without an objective measuring point, and a timer is just that. If the recoil is the same, then the time would be the same for the same drills, as you'd be able to run them at the same speed.

If you're not incorporating a timer in your training, you're seriously failing at it. That's not even a question; every single instructor who's not a moron and who's actually spent time instructing/working will agree with that.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 4:32:13 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AJE:
I don't understand why you seem to be picking an argument.  Nobody is telling you not to use a 10mm in any of the matches, but you will likely be the only one.  

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There is no argument,  someone stated that they had never seen or believed anyone could be proficient with a 10mm in competition or for carry in another thread. I wanted to see if there were any out there is all.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 4:44:44 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HOGHUNTERS:
Timers can be a useful tool for competition shooters, I rely on consistent movement and shot placement for reaction to threat scenarios.  
It is quite possible to (overclock) your movements causing other issues. I'm completely confident in my abilities under stress and weapon control under pretty much any circumstances.
I bet my life, and more importantly,  the life of my wife everytime we walk out of the house. And that's all that really matters, is her saftey.
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What in the hell is “overclocking” movement??

Please... explain this nonsense.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 4:46:00 PM EST
At what time do you incorporate the timer stressor in instruction?
Most folks would be intimidated by having the timing monkey on their shoulders, and it's not about that at all. Progression through experience shooting will give way to faster shot placement over time....timers can be used, but that will vary from individual to individual.  
I'll relay your sentiment that I'm a moron to the people I have helped over the years......
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 4:48:33 PM EST
Over clock, trying to move faster than your muscle memory allows your fine motor skills to follow through with....
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 4:59:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/21/2021 5:03:31 PM EST by TradWoodsman]
The differences in this conversation are between guys that shoot things like IDPA for score and competition (nothing wrong with that obviously) and guys like me who just shoot to practice with what we carry.

Hell yes things can go faster in IDPA with a 9 mm. I did it with a Glock 19 for 1 season (I hate hate hate shooting a Glock) and yep...double taps were quicker.

I would NEVER claim that I can compete with a 10 mm shooting carry (hot) loads. But what I can produce is good enough for ME. I CAN beat a few guys at my club....but honestly that is based on accuracy. I will trade an unhurried accurate shot any day for a rushed attempt. Some guys disagree, and push for maximum speed. Fine. Go for it. I hope if something REAL happens you have the presence of mind to take a calm shot. I don't think they will, but have at it.

Someone mentioned 500 rounds a year as a around count. LOL....pre ammo shortage I can't honestly count....now, during the shortage? 500 a month, easily. Easily.

In my rural, mostly outdoors world, a 10 mm makes sense, especially in winter. And I don't care what someone on the internet thinks about it. Hopefully, none of us will ever have to find out who is right.


Edit....I read some opinions on timers...I think timers are great. They do induce stress. Shooting in front of others induces stress. It is that stress that we need to improve our skill set. I had a misfeed the other day in a steel challenge shoot. My shooting partner commented "wow, you cleared that fast"....I honestly didn't even realize it happened until he brought it up. Stress works as a training tool.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 6:21:58 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HOGHUNTERS:
Over clock, trying to move faster than your muscle memory allows your fine motor skills to follow through with....
View Quote


And how are you to build efficiency if you have no standard by which to gauge efficiency?

Self defense shooting is about speed and accuracy.  Tracking accuracy only is just as fooling as shooting on a clock but never looking at the target.

If you’re not incorporating a timer, how are you even running dryfire drills?
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 6:54:40 PM EST

Link Posted: 1/21/2021 6:57:26 PM EST
Do you entertain the notion of "maximum efficiency " ?
I'm guessing no. Run your drills and quantify your thousandths of a second you shaved off your time.
I am truly happy that you are that good....or working to be better, there does come a point of diminishing return......can we at least agree on that one thing?
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