you got to take HiPoints for what they are- cheap. You cant expect a $150 firearm to run along with one that costs 3 times that. They have to cut corners to make it that cheap. Shoot it enough it will fail you, and that may be at a point when you need it to defend yourself or your family. I have a HiPoint carbine, but if a SHTF situation was to happen that would be the last gun I would grab. I would go for one of my Berettas, HK, AR15s or anything else before the HiPoint. The HiPoint is fun to shoot but I wouldnt trust my life to it.

Who owns this gun?  I'll be glad to buy it from you.



My 9mm HP's fire every time with +P+ ammo.  Got 1000s or rounds thru them with no problems.  Oh, I don't clean it but after 4 or 5 trips to the range.



Ugly? maybe.

Cheap? No.

Inexpensive? Yes.

American made? Yes.

Lose a part during dis-assembly and get free repair from manufacturer? GUARANTEED!

Or purchase a 40 S&W that someone cut with a saw and have it replaced by the manufacturer for free? GUARANTEED!

That was not cut with a saw, if it was the cut would be smooth and sharp. The slide in the pics was stressed and broke, look at the metal. Hi-Points use zinc alloy as the material for the slide, which is cheap, easy to die cast and is weak when compared to other metals. They use alot off it that is why they stay together for a while, and have the enormous slides. Say what you want to defend HiPoint pistols but they are made to be cheap first and foremost. They are a throw away gun not a piece that you will have for a lifetime and pass it to your children.

Hi-points are garbage. We certainly would never use them in the Navy. I know the other branches would never use them. I couldn’t imagine any law enforcement using them either.  Maybe California will turn to them since they are in so much debt lol.The only use I could think of is using as a hammer or paper weight.

I entrust my life to a Glock 26.

I carry a smith & wesson m&p compact .40,  a G19, and every blue moon my Tanfiglio compact  witness P .45.  Not all at once.
I personaly would not trust  a Hi point on my hip.  HI point LOL.

Keep surfing, champ. Every one of those guns has detractors. Try again.

Yeah, the military uses the best firearms. Do a search; you'll find that there are several p.d.'s that use their carbines. As for the pistols, they go bang. Period. You wouldn't stand in front of a loaded one, and the people that bash them don't own them. The people that do own them, love them. That should tell you all you need to know.

What departments use them? I have heard that before and did a search but couldnt find one that uses them. If I was in that line of work there is no way in hell I would trust my life to gun made of the cheapest possible materials. For a plinker the carbine isnt bad. To say a HiPoint is as good as a Beretta, Glock, HK or what ever is retarded.

Try the dept of homeland secuity, montana highway patrol, and texas department of corrections to start with.  (from "assault weapons" by jack lewis)

SW

Lol.  Why would you want to plink with a piece of garbage you might as well use a tube and hammer.

At the range last weekend, my wife, buddy, and myself brought a Beretta M9, Kimber Pro Carry .45, Beretta 950BS, CZ-52, along with an AR, AK and SKS, ohteah, and a Hi-Point .45 JHP.

The M9 had 2 jams, FTE.

Kimber LOCKED UP, supposedly break-in issues.

The 950BS was flawless.

The Hi-point  FAILED to dissapoint anybody, AGAIN.

The CZ-52 had mag issues, but were fixed.

Not a big fan of bretta or kimber. Hi-point is still a hunk of crap. I stick with springfield arms tried and true since 1794.

The Montana Highway Patrol uses HP??  I don't think so.

According the indentified book where i got the information they do.

SW

LMAO

Umh, I believe that springfield arms is just a purchased name, and not the same company thats been tried and trued since 1794 or whenever and most of ther stuff is imported. So u may have a hunk of crap also and dont even know it. And if u dont like hi point why are u in this thread anyway???

My 2 cents....

I shot my friends hi point 9mm a few days ago.  I was scared to shoot it.  I have heard about them falling apart in peoples hands.
We loaded 5 rounds in it each time and it jammed on about 7 of the 50 rounds shot out of it that day.  He said a different brand of ammo was more reliable in it.
For the price I was fairly impressed with it because it was pretty accurate but im still not sure if i would want one.

Any gun that jams 7 out of 50 rounds is on my do not want list... Unreliable guns are not interesting to me.

How clean was it ?

I shoot reloads out of my JHP .45, and clean it after 200 rounds. I gets VERY dirty with the reloads, but has yet to fail when the trigger is pulled.

Not the easiest gun to break down and clean up, but once you have done it a couple of times, it's just routine mantainence.

If a high point is what you want then more power to you. I personallly do not like them for many reasons. They look horrid, Terrible trigger, I dont like the fact that the slide is so high off of the frame rails. I dont like the sites, the fact that its cast from inexpensive metals. (which is why you see the ruff surface when they DO break) and they do break just as every gun out there does. If its what you like then so be it. Ive seen hundreds of them come in from police departments as trade ins from confiscated collections. Ive thought about stacking them deep just because of the price........use them as currancy when the SHTF. You CANT compare the performance of a HP to a glock,sig, or beretta ....and yes ive owned HP.......but in its price point its the best thing going. IF the shit was about to get real.....then i would want one rather than have nothing at all. You cant really expect to come to a forum like AR15 and expect not to catch hell about a HP its like showing up to a race with a porsche while your driving a smart car. Both have their place......both do whats expected of them in their respective price points. Personally, as I said. I dont like them and dont feel safe with them. Just my opinion. I personally like the porsche.

I have never shot one, but they get good reviews at Bud's Gun Shop.

They get great reviews from the people that actually own them. No company can sell something for under $200. or so and offer a lifetime, no questions asked warranty if what they sell is junk. There'd be no profit in it. My Hi-Point 9mm pistol and carbine combined cost less than half of what my friend paid for his Sig 556. His Sig is supposed to be fancy ass with "A.K. like reliability", but it doesn't have a lifetime warranty like my Hi Points do, and the Hi-Point comes in a carboard box just like a $3 000 Les Baer does. Sorry, but you can verify that for yourself if you don't believe me. You put bullets in it, and it goes "bang". Period. Selling them used isn't a problem, either. Check around. Smart shoppers like myself  know about the warranty and don't hesitate to grab one up when the opportunity presents itself. I've personally offered to buy Hi-Points from the liars on various boards that "had one break". They never take me up on it. First of all because their story is bullshit, and secondly because I'd send it back to the company to be fixed free of charge, and it would be shipped back with a free magazine to cover the cost of postage to them.  Check out the Hi-Point forum while you're at it; there have been people that have had their guns ruined in Hurricane Katrina or similar situations that sent them in asking for the damage to be evaluated and an estimate given for repair or replacement, and got a brand new gun back for free. Don't believe me, go look it up.  ... and they're American made. I love mine, and I plan on buying the .45 pistol and carbine next. Haters keep hating. You're not making me feel bad about my guns. If you had any idea about the company, their product, and their great customer service stories from real owners, you'd be ashamed of yourselves. That is, if you had any decency to start with.

...trolling an inexpensive, American made gun that works great. Pitiful.

What he said.

Have you used a Craftsman ratchet lately?

Hi Points work great for their intended purpose, but don't be surprised that people who use firearms for a living, tend to use something better. Or those with enough cash to buy two Hi Points wind up buying a used Glock instead.

I've had a professional mechanic tell me that Snap On are shit and that he doesn't use them. Craftsmen have always got the job done for me; and they too had a lifetime warranty. If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid. But I'm sure that all the operators and Navy Seals around here already know that. Some people are too proud to admit something inexpensive works.

Well, THIS professional mechanic is telling you otherwise, as will many others like me.

Their boxes and tools, while being perfectly acceptable to both contain tools and for hobby use, are not used by most professionals.

The same comparison can be made with Hi Points vs other brands used by Military and Police Departments around the world.

I was an auto mechanic for seven years.  You can buy snap on once and use it for years of good service.  you can buy craftsman and take it back for replacement at least once a year when it breaks, wears out or otherwise fails.  "professionals" that cuss snap on cant afford it and are jealous of others who can.  personal expierence with that one.

SW

Let's cut right through the bullshit on this thread: 99% of the people on this board aren't cops or C.I.A. Seal ninjas anyway. Who cares what they carry? When you're a little kid you dress up like Batman because he's your hero. When you're an adult you don't dress up like po po or Steven Segal to be more like them. For all of the major league dick wagging on this site, the average person here is just a moderately trained person, without combat experience, that has very expensive hardware that will be confiscated and engraved with a case number if they ever have to shoot in self defense. I'd rather have my Hi-Point beat up by the fuzz than my $600 Glocks... That may just be me, but I don't see the need for a 10 mil or a $3,000 1911 to defend myself. Work that one out for yourself.

...or go build something with your Snap On tools. Who cares? Buy what you want.

So I struck a nerve there, didn't I?

It's not my fault that you have to justify to the world your poor choices in tools.

Hi Points are a choice, and there are certainly better choices out there. To tell me a Hi Point is all I need because I'm not some whizz bang super high speed combat experienced operator is a rather stupid way to try to convince me to own or want one. I don't really need any sort of pistol, but I choose to buy a pistol that I can without a doubt rely on if I had too.

I choose not to own them because I choose to own a weapon that I can trust my life to.  That and the ability to carry more than 10 rounds in a double stack magazine helps too. I also like the ability to disassemble my firearms at the range if I need to, in the even that I have a really bad stove pipe or a squib (I own a Beretta, so I doubt that I'll ever get a malfunction bad enough to lock the gun up unless the slide or frame breaks.)

The carbines are a nifty range toy, I'll give them that.  The .40 version that I tried needed a rubber buttstock pad in a bad way though, other than that it was reasonably accurate and went bang every time I pulled the trigger.

You didn't strike a nerve, you tried to use a stupid analogy to cover your bullshit argument. How many people on this board are professional mechanics? I don't mean assholes that break shit trying to "fix it" and pay twice as much trying to save $120. on labor, I mean people that make their living actually repairing mechanical devices and have the training? 1%? 2%? Hell, I'll be generous and say 5%. So approximately 95% of the people on this board aren't mechanics. Craftsman tools will work just fine for them. Once or twice a year they pull out the hammer and nail up a picture. They tighten something up, loosen something else. That doesn't require the best tools that money can buy, and a lifetime warranty covered tool that's less expensive will work just fine. You're not going to break them, and even if you did, it'd be from using them for a purpose for which they weren't designed (e.g., screwdriver prybar, socket wrench hammer...) If you're a professional mechanic, fine, buy the best and take the deduction, but, you're not a nina seal. If you were, you wouldn't be posting bullshit here. If you are a ninja seal and happen to be reading this, please enjoy using the shit we've bought you and understand that to me nothing is good enough for you. The people on this board, by-and-large, are playing halloween dress-up as their favorite action star or .mil branch at their expense. Hi-Point firearms will fit the bill for any non-ninja seal encounter.You really don't need more. If your penis is tiny and you need to be a man to other men, a tank isn't big enough for you.  "I choose to own a weapon that I can trust my life to." If you "trust your life" to any weapon, you're an idiot. Anything mechanical can and will fail. That's what 'plan b' is for. Have you ever heard of a handgun at any price that doesn't fail. Please name the make so that I can research it. I personally haven't had any more problems from my Hi-Point C9 than I have from my G22. I don't have to justify shit; to you or anyone else for that matter. But I do have to wonder why you have to justify bashing a gun you don't own, aren't interested in, and obviously know nothing at all about. That's weird and creepy.


...American made, inexpensive, lifetime warranty.

So if your Hi Points are so great, why did you run out and buy a Glock 22 as well?

It's not a bullshit argument, Craftsman Tools, like their Hi Point counterpoints, are cheap crap. Just because they are American made, with a lifetime warranty, does not make them any less crappy. All it does is give people an incentive to buy them, because without the warranty, a significantly less amount of people would buy either. There was a time when Craftsman Tools were world class, but now their base line stuff is junk. If you want a quality made Craftsman tool, you have to step up to their "Professional" line, which is significantly better than their base line tools.

Does Hi Point make another line of pistols that are built better, with better features than their base line stuff? No, they don't. Most people now days are smarter than to buy something that is "American Made" with a lifetime warranty, just because it is American made with a lifetime warranty.

When they actually come up with a decent pistol that is more than just bottom of the barrel cheap, I'll consider one. Until then I'll be happy with my other firearms. Maybe I'll even pick up a Hi Point carbine as a range toy, they're evil looking enough, though the lack of high capacity magazines is a major turn off.

I didn't run out and buy anything. I already owned several Glocks when I picked up the C9. I was at a local range with a co-worker waiting for his friends to show up, and while I was there bought the C9 that I had been playing with at the past several gun shows. That night I had the chance to compare it side-by-side with Kimber, Beretta, Glock, HK, and Taurus handguns. I was amazed at how accurate the gun is. I get a real kick out of something inexpensive that works like a champ. I still carry the Swiss Army knife that I bought over 20 years ago. There are cooler and more expensive multi-tools out there, but I've never found myself in a situation where I felt the need to suddenly build a tree fort or defuse a bomb, and the Swiss Army knife has worked perfectly fine for over two decades now. I'm sure there are people that think they're junk, too. Look around on the internet; you'll find someone to bash anything. I don't know how the hell you'd break one with normal use, but I'm sure there's someone special out there that has.



Sure. Companies can make inexpensive tools and keep repairing and/or replacing them. That makes perfect business sense.



Built better with better features? Like what? A bottle opener? You put bullets in and it goes "bang" when you pull the trigger. Everything beyond that isn't an improvement; it's a preference. You pay more for those preferences. I'm not stopping anyone from spending $3 000 on a handgun, I'm just saying that it's not necessary to stop a carjacking or home invasion. My C9 is plenty accurate and reliable for any real world scenario. If you're doing something high speed that the government officially frowns on (but privately supports), you probably already use the best stuff out there. If you're not calling in airstrikes on Al- Qaeda while dressed like a goat herder as part of your everyday routine, it isn't really necessary to go broke to protect you and yours.




I don't jack off while looking at my Hi-Points, so I don't really care how evil looking they are. As a matter of fact, I think it's gay that everyone is putting Punisher logos and flames on their Glocks, but whatever. To each their own. I'd hate to use one of those in self defense and then have it shown to the jury by the other side's attorney while he talked about how his client's son was mentally retarded, on medication, and that you were just looking for an excuse to shoot someone. Plain black is fine with me. The less evil looking the better. If you need higher capacity, get extra magazines. That solution took me .00000001 of a second to figure out. Go see what the people are saying that actually own them.

I'm with Srben on many points.

Cost, brand names, features, etc., have little to do with "quality in regards to the intended purpose".

I have owned so many pistols I can't even remember all of them. Many brand names turned out to be lemons, and several inexpensive guns turned out to be outstanding.

In regards to the quality of a High Point compared to a higher branded name like Glock, Sig, HK, whatever.. The word quality means "meets the requirement" Read that again..

I have a friend who bought a High Point the same time last year I bought my HK and a CZ 75. Yep I could "jack off" to the asthetics and features of my two guns compared to his. Yep, his high point is not very attractive, and lacks many features that my branded pistols do. But I also have been to the range with him about 10 times since we both bought the guns, and I can tell you that although at 25 yards my pistols are seemingly more accurate, at 7-10 yards (defense range for real life defense use) his High point is just as accurate as my HK and CZ. Not to mention, he has never had a mafunction (and neither have I) in nearly 1000 rds fired.. The reliablity of his gun matches my higher priced HK and CZ 75. Something else of interest.. Of course I am anal about cleaning my guns every time I shoot them, I mean christ I have a small fortume invested in them. He has cleaned his maybe twice in the last year,  and when he's not carrying it, it sits in the glove box of his truck. This is Minnesota, where temps and weather conditions can be very hard on firearms... That is a real testament to that gun.

So I guess I'd say he has a "quality" gun that "meets the requirements of it's intended use".  I am not saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but they are not useless junk. I would trust his high point as much as my HK or CZ. It's proved it's point.

One last point.. funny you mentioned about what you carry.. I too think about that, and I have a trusty Kel-Tec P11 (made in America, lifetime warranty)with well over 1K rounds that I carry most of the time. It too has been bashed verbally more than party pinata` but if I know that if I ever have to use it, I am not worried about it being beat up a bit, dropped, confiscated (if investigation was pending) etc.. But I'd be a wreck if that were to happen to my $800 HK..

After thinking about it, I have so many (in my mind anyway) higher priced pistols that I truly enjoy, but don't really need. I rarely carry them, but I guess it's just nice that I can own them and use them. Just because they are nice to look at, are technologically advanced with higher quality features and materials, that doesn't mean a less expensive lower quality gun would be any less relaible or accurate for it's intended purpose.

Last time:  QUALITY = Meets the requirement.  

You personally choose your own requirment. It's nice to have those choices. Don't bash someone elses choice out of arrogance or ignorance. (Not directed to anyone specifically)

there are arfcommers defending hi points.

I think we can officially say hell has frozen over.  

i am impressed.

SW

Wow, what an open minded statement.

If you re-read and comprehend what I wrote, it's clear "in what context" the Hi-Point or any other inexpensive lack luster firearm was being defended for.  Just because it's inexpensive doesn't mean it's "crap, junk", etc..  But don't take my word for it.. maybe these guys (see urls below) are just dumbasses defending them as well.

It's better to have a cheap gun than no gun at all.  Some of you guys are really narrow minded..   I am not impressed..  


Here are a couple of good reads. One is directly related to Hi-Point pistols, and one is Massad Ayoob's thoughts on "cheap pistols".   Enjoy!

Shooting Times Hi-Point pistol review

Masaad Ayoob on "cheap pistols"

I like the way this guy thinks.

The standard mantra of the NRA and CCW crowd is, "The mere presence of a gun will deter crime."

There are better weapons than a HiPoint and I have a Glock 26 that I carry with me. Could buy 3 HiPoints from the price of that Glock. I'm not such a Plano snob that I'd regard someone as a cretin for only being able to afford a HiPoint on a fixed income. My point is that if that is all you can afford, then get it. But always get the best weapon that you can afford and do some sort of training with it. And don't be afraid to use like the recent thread about the sheeple that gave his weapon over to the intruder.

Sorry OP for straying off course, but this is just too good to pass up...

JBski.. I'm calling you out on this.. I'm assuming when you say "lately" you mean last 5 (or?) years recently manufactured?

Let me ask you the same question in your analogy.... Have you purchased/used a Sig Sauer lately? The newer guns are "crap" compared to the older ones. Yes, I've owned both.  (sorry for the Sig bashing, if you're sensitive to them, but making a point here)

Who said they were a mechanic for 7 years?... Ha, ha.. try 30 years..

I have "used a Craftsman ratchet lately, and actually have used the same ones for just over 29 years now. I have been in maufacturing, assembly, machining, and fleet truck repair (toss in engineering too) for 30 years, and these tools below (yes all craftsman) have been with me all 29 years. I have worked on every car I've ever owned with them, every machine, elevator maintenance, truck repair at work, many dozen 3 and 4 wheeled ATV's I've owned, too many motorcycles to remember, and every home maint and repair that needed them.. So many other times to remember. Oh yeah, also on a friends race car (local race track) And you know what, with truly abusing them at times (using as a breaker bar when one was not handy) like as a hammer, etc. These tools have been through hell and back, and NEVER have they ever failed me, nor did I ever have to bring/send one back for repair or replacement.

What the hell are you talking about.. I bought a new Sig pistol (recent mfgr) that was truly hosed. I'd have been better off with my 1/2" drive Craftsman ratchet, and beat'em to death..

I'm gonna go buy a Hi-Point now, shoot the piss out of it, and toss it in the drawer with these seemingly worthless tools that have been reliable for me for nearly 3 decades... That way when someone comes over to my house and rips on my Craftsman, I can choose to beat them with my 1/2" Craftsman ratchet, or shoot'em with the "crappy" (but reliable) HP.  Both will be ready for the next job..

Look at some of these 29 year old Craftsman ratchets (1/4" - 3/8"- 1/2" drive) with good hard honest use. I'm not sure they're even up to the "break in period" yet.. Last picture is the best.. you can see all 29 years of use, and it's still going strong.. Pretty good for such crappy tools..











"

Yep, all that's true, no argument there.

And at 6'0, 220 lbs. pretty damn fit from weight training and martial arts for over 30 years, holding my Craftsman 1/2" drive wrench, I can "deter crime" as well...

I'd prefer a gun though..  

Hi-Point in action.

Great vid...
Pretty much sums it up with more than words.. The gun is more than acceptable.
My buddy has had similar results with his.

I love it.

I meant "recently manufactured". Recently made Craftsman tools, like currently made Sig Pistols, are just not made like they used to. I've got old Craftsman stuff that I use all the time, and dread the day that I have to replace them with new Craftsman tools when they break, because they won't last nearly as long. I got tired of busting my knuckles with recently made Craftsman shit, and bought Snap-On instead. If you want to buy good Craftsman tools, you have to buy their professional line now, as their base line is poorly made. You'll see the light once you finally break one of your old ratchets, and then they hand you one out of the remanufactured bin with internals that are half as strong as your old ratchet.

The Springfield Armory was one of two U.S. Government Run armories that built arms and equipment for our military forces.   Harpers Ferry ceased to exist after Stonewall Jackson destroyed it during the recent unpleasantness.  Springfield Armory closed after the M14 rifle it developed went out of service in 1968.

Springfield Arms just took over the name and changed it to Springfield Arms.

Hi Points are for regular purchase.  I don't think that the compay ever repsresented this brand of pistols and carbines as the equal or substitute for any working gun.
I think that there are probably better choies out there.  I don't see anything worng with this company.  In fact I am thinkking of getting the carbine.

What im wondering is how all your tools and teh carpet in your box is so clean.  looks like they've never been used much, or you spend lots of time wiping down your tools before you put them away.  mine is grungy from all the grease, grime and dirt that has accumulated in there over the 8 years i turned wrenches for a living.

SW

i have known sw for years and most ,if not all of the time dont agree with him, but agree that box of chrafstman tools looks way to cleen,and i as well have a one in each of my autos and have run many rounds through each before putting in service . at your sugestion i will also put one in my not so pretty toolbox

Hmm... Interesting thoughts.. Look again at the pic showing the back side of my 1/2" drive ratchet. Hardened tool steel all dented an mushed in areas from decades of hard use.. Don't judge a book by it's cover. You can guess, compare, make assumptions all you want, but you have no idea of the reality.  If it seems like I'm taking this personally, I probably am tonight. I'm sore as hell from a new weightlifting routine, still recovering from my achilles tendon surgery, and low on money for some bills.. Basically I'm in a bad mood right now...  But hey, that's life.

So anyway,

1.) I have also pistols and rifles chrome and stainless steel that are 20 - 30 years old, have been fired many many thousands of times, caked after several shootings with "grease, dirt, grime" etc.. and sitting currently in my safe (similar plush carpeting on the shelf) they look as clean as they did when they were new. So does that mean I actually never shot them???

2.) The carpeting in the picture is less than a year old, and has been changed many times since the original rubber mats that lined those drawers.

3.) Yes, I do (and have always) wipe my tools down just like my guns, or anything else that I had a substantial investment in. They are nickle and hard chome plated. It takes very little time and effort to wipe down/clean your tools.

4.) Take a look a  Nascar tool box and ask me the same questions. Try having grimey, dirty,  gritty tools in your box if you are in military maintenence during an inspection..

5.) Take a look at a world class machine shop, and see their tools. The mills and lathes many decades old and see how clean they can be when wiped down and cleaned properly. It's amazing really. Did I mention I spent most of my working life in just such environments? I was instructed and taught to wipe down and clean my tools and work station in many jobs I've had. That was in fact part of the job.

6.) Lastly, if your tools are as dirty as you say, I can only assume your guns are possible as unkept. I have a strict routine in cleaning and maintenence of anything I use. I can't help it if you don't clean your stuff and try to keep it as nice as possible. Every gun, motorcycle, ATV, car, truck, etc,. I've ever owned, used, and sold, I have been complimented on how nice a condition I kept my stuff.  Personal preference, pride, but that's my gig.

No offense, but if you like to keep your stuff dirty and greasy, that's your issue. You are practically saying you're proud of having dirty greasy tools. Well, that's good for you.   On a personal note, I also like to shower and be clean, but I assure you my body is many decades old, well used, and has had some parts replaced and repaired.. But like my tools and guns, I have a lot of life left in me.. Just like a Hi Point pistol, not all that attractive but built to last.  

Illegitimus Non Tatum Carborundum.

I generally didnt have time to fart around wiping weverything down in my jobs as a mechanic.  i worked on stragiht book time and i couldnt afford to spend 20 minutes after every job cleaning all my tools so they looked all spiffy.  and no i dont keep my guns perfectly clean either.  unl;ess im shooting corrosive ammo (i clean those at the range) they may go two or three range trips without being cleaned.  if they cant handle that, they dont belong in my weapons locker.  i have  a browning gold 12 ga 3" automatic shotgun that has gone 1300 rounds between cleanings.  it loves it and asks for more.  thats the kind of gun ill trust my life with.  not one that needs to be hospital clean and babied to operate properly.

something being dirty, grimy and dinged up means its seen a good life of hard use.  What a tool, gun or other durable object is MEANT to do.  and yes i am proud of having dirty greasy tools, clothing etc.  it means i work for a living and and proud fo it.   too many people these days are afraid to go out and get dirty to make a living.  or if they do its showers and clean this and clean that afterwards before anything else is done.  if you  prefer to have everything perfectly clean that is your perogative and i applaud your resilience for doing so.  im more wrried about productivity and proper job completion than i am cleanliness.

SW