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Posted: 6/8/2011 1:24:37 PM EDT

[#1]

But, but, but, the .45ACP in a 1911 is practically the "Hammer of Thor". Why just racking the slide on one makes grown men lose control of their bowels! Never mind shooting someone with it, in every movie I've seen the bad guy gets knocked down spinning with just a hit to the thumb or big toe by the MIGHTY .45ACP! How could anyone possibly say anything bad about it?

J/K

Seriously, handguns are a particularly bad way to stop a fight. The reason most of us carry them is because people would look at us unkindly if we carried long arms. If I lived in the "big city" I might feel the need to carry a .40 with 14 rounds and a couple of reloads. I live in a small town and most of the criminals I meet are at work.

I've gone through a lot of their "files" and for the most part they either don't have a gun, or have a toy gun just to "scare" people into giving them money. The rest of the criminals either have a gun that could be loosely described as a "saturday night special" or in a very, very small percentage of cases an actual working gun like a Glock. Now in "street terms" a Glock is any gun that can be fired (i.e. a S&W model 10 is a Glock, just as a Glock 17 is a Glock). The police reports make it even harder to determine what gun was actually used as most officers wouldn't know a S&W model 10 from a Glock 17, especially in Philly.

My current carry weapon has 8 rounds in the gun backed up by two 8 round magazines. I doubt if I'll ever meet the gang of 22 robbers intent on robbing stores. Their take from country stores might be a little on the disapointing side of things in this area. Either way, I feel well armed with my choice of firearms and magazines.

Posted: 6/8/2011 1:43:25 PM EDT

[#2]

Carry what gun you shoot best under stress.
For me that's the 1911. I also practice reloading under stress. I carry two spare 8 round mags on me, and have 4 10 rounders in my GHB in the truck where I can reach them while in the driver’s seat.

If THAT isn't enough, then I should be able to find a battlefield pickup to use to get my ass into a better position to get killed

Posted: 6/8/2011 5:01:02 PM EDT

[#3]

Carry what you can shoot best and that's chambered in a service caliber.

95% of the time, I carry a 5" 1911 with 8+1 and 3 8rd reloads on me.

Lately, I started carrying my S&W M&P9 at 17+1 and 1 17rd reload on me. It would be 2, I just haven't gotten around to buying any more mags for it.

There's always going to be scenario's that benefit one over the other. Carry the one you can shoot the best.

Posted: 6/8/2011 5:39:58 PM EDT

[#4]

i carry an unloaded revolver with one round in my front shirt pocket - for most situations, that should get the job done.

Posted: 6/8/2011 5:48:28 PM EDT

[#5]

The average number of assailants had gone up to five and the average number of rounds fired had gone up to 17. The reality is that bad guys are working in packs these days and I'm going to have as much as I can feasibly carry.

as much as i tend to not believe official govt statistics, does anybody have any govt statistics that might shed light on the above numbers?

Posted: 6/8/2011 6:06:56 PM EDT

[#6]

PDF lock my PC up every time.

Posted: 6/8/2011 6:07:02 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I took a handgun class a few years ago that was being instructed by a friend of mine that is a federal LEO. The FBI had just released their most recent crime statistics. The average number of assailants had gone up to five and the average number of rounds fired had gone up to 17. The reality is that bad guys are working in packs these days and I'm going to have as much as I can feasibly carry.

Your friend is ill informed. Also I can always come up with a senario where you will lose everytime. Even armed with a MaDuece and 75,000 rounds of ammo.

You carry what you want, I'll carry what I want. Choosing a carry weapon on capacity alone is a mistake in my humble opinion. I'd rather carry something I can put rounds on target with under extreme conditions.

Since I am relying on the word of someone who receives the report and don't have access to it myself, please share the actual data so we can all learn something.

Bradd, not meaning to ruffle your feathers. We've had a couple hundred homicides between the two largest Police Departments in my area. A simple search of the UCR's show the average number of assailants = 1. You can go to FBI.gov and look for yourself. Has it (5) ever happened? Yep. Does it happen everytime, ie..average? Nope.

Truth is we all make decisions then use statistics/senarios to attempt to justify our decisions. That's called human nature. Another truth is, just about any handgun is a poor choice for defending one's self but convience wins out because you'd get a lot of LEO contacts if you carried your rifle slung over your shoulder every where you go. Find a handgun that you can shoot well, in a caliber your comfortable with and go with it.

Statistically, we'll never need our gun anyway....that's according to the statistics.

Posted: 6/8/2011 6:25:55 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I took a handgun class a few years ago that was being instructed by a friend of mine that is a federal LEO. The FBI had just released their most recent crime statistics. The average number of assailants had gone up to five and the average number of rounds fired had gone up to 17. The reality is that bad guys are working in packs these days and I'm going to have as much as I can feasibly carry.

Your friend is ill informed. Also I can always come up with a senario where you will lose everytime. Even armed with a MaDuece and 75,000 rounds of ammo.

You carry what you want, I'll carry what I want. Choosing a carry weapon on capacity alone is a mistake in my humble opinion. I'd rather carry something I can put rounds on target with under extreme conditions.

Since I am relying on the word of someone who receives the report and don't have access to it myself, please share the actual data so we can all learn something.

Bradd, not meaning to ruffle your feathers. We've had a couple hundred homicides between the two largest Police Departments in my area. A simple search of the UCR's show the average number of assailants = 1. You can go to FBI.gov and look for yourself. Has it (5) ever happened? Yep. Does it happen everytime, ie..average? Nope.

Truth is we all make decisions then use statistics/senarios to attempt to justify our decisions. That's called human nature. Another truth is, just about any handgun is a poor choice for defending one's self but convience wins out because you'd get a lot of LEO contacts if you carried your rifle slung over your shoulder every where you go. Find a handgun that you can shoot well, in a caliber your comfortable with and go with it.

Statistically, we'll never need our gun anyway....that's according to the statistics.

I would appreciate a link to the current FBI stats. A couple of comments about your local data. First, I don't know that I'd use Iowa as the litmus test for what is going on in the rest of the country. Second, when talking about crime involving multiple assailants homicide isn't the only stat to look at. You have to look at robbery, assault, home invasion, etc. Home invasion is on the rise in the metro Atlanta area and it's never just one guy. As I said, my friend actually receives the FBI report so I'm fairly confident he understands the data that is in it. He presented the information in his class to illustrate that times have changed and it's very likely that you will face more attackers than you would have back in the day.

Posted: 6/8/2011 8:18:20 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I took a handgun class a few years ago that was being instructed by a friend of mine that is a federal LEO. The FBI had just released their most recent crime statistics. The average number of assailants had gone up to five and the average number of rounds fired had gone up to 17. The reality is that bad guys are working in packs these days and I'm going to have as much as I can feasibly carry.

Your friend is ill informed. Also I can always come up with a senario where you will lose everytime. Even armed with a MaDuece and 75,000 rounds of ammo.

You carry what you want, I'll carry what I want. Choosing a carry weapon on capacity alone is a mistake in my humble opinion. I'd rather carry something I can put rounds on target with under extreme conditions.

Since I am relying on the word of someone who receives the report and don't have access to it myself, please share the actual data so we can all learn something.

Bradd, not meaning to ruffle your feathers. We've had a couple hundred homicides between the two largest Police Departments in my area. A simple search of the UCR's show the average number of assailants = 1. You can go to FBI.gov and look for yourself. Has it (5) ever happened? Yep. Does it happen everytime, ie..average? Nope.

Truth is we all make decisions then use statistics/senarios to attempt to justify our decisions. That's called human nature. Another truth is, just about any handgun is a poor choice for defending one's self but convience wins out because you'd get a lot of LEO contacts if you carried your rifle slung over your shoulder every where you go. Find a handgun that you can shoot well, in a caliber your comfortable with and go with it.

Statistically, we'll never need our gun anyway....that's according to the statistics.

I would appreciate a link to the current FBI stats. A couple of comments about your local data. First, I don't know that I'd use Iowa as the litmus test for what is going on in the rest of the country. Second, when talking about crime involving multiple assailants homicide isn't the only stat to look at. You have to look at robbery, assault, home invasion, etc. Home invasion is on the rise in the metro Atlanta area and it's never just one guy. As I said, my friend actually receives the FBI report so I'm fairly confident he understands the data that is in it. He presented the information in his class to illustrate that times have changed and it's very likely that you will face more attackers than you would have back in the day.

You believe what you like. As I've said, look it up yourself, it's all there on fbi.gov. I've run a black and white for 20 years and been to Quantico myself. And I believe your friend quoted to you the average which would take in the Omaha metro area too as well as every one horse town between yours and mine.

Posted: 6/8/2011 11:23:58 PM EDT

[#10]

Practice shooting, practice reloads, and have a plan.

There is no perfect gun.

all the guys I have talked with that have been in a shooting,have said "more bullets". ( they did not say higher capacity, they said more bullets.)

I carry a glock with at least one reload. I would happily carry a 1911 and more mags if that was my thing.

Posted: 6/9/2011 1:42:58 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
i carry an unloaded revolver with one round in my front shirt pocket - for most situations, that should get the job done.

Ah yes, the old "Barney Fife" method. It served him well as I can recall.......

Posted: 6/9/2011 5:29:29 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
PDF lock my PC up every time.

Same here.

Posted: 6/9/2011 6:41:05 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I took a handgun class a few years ago that was being instructed by a friend of mine that is a federal LEO. The FBI had just released their most recent crime statistics. The average number of assailants had gone up to five and the average number of rounds fired had gone up to 17. The reality is that bad guys are working in packs these days and I'm going to have as much as I can feasibly carry.

Your friend is ill informed. Also I can always come up with a senario where you will lose everytime. Even armed with a MaDuece and 75,000 rounds of ammo.

You carry what you want, I'll carry what I want. Choosing a carry weapon on capacity alone is a mistake in my humble opinion. I'd rather carry something I can put rounds on target with under extreme conditions.

Since I am relying on the word of someone who receives the report and don't have access to it myself, please share the actual data so we can all learn something.

Bradd, not meaning to ruffle your feathers. We've had a couple hundred homicides between the two largest Police Departments in my area. A simple search of the UCR's show the average number of assailants = 1. You can go to FBI.gov and look for yourself. Has it (5) ever happened? Yep. Does it happen everytime, ie..average? Nope.

Truth is we all make decisions then use statistics/senarios to attempt to justify our decisions. That's called human nature. Another truth is, just about any handgun is a poor choice for defending one's self but convience wins out because you'd get a lot of LEO contacts if you carried your rifle slung over your shoulder every where you go. Find a handgun that you can shoot well, in a caliber your comfortable with and go with it.

Statistically, we'll never need our gun anyway....that's according to the statistics.

I would appreciate a link to the current FBI stats. A couple of comments about your local data. First, I don't know that I'd use Iowa as the litmus test for what is going on in the rest of the country. Second, when talking about crime involving multiple assailants homicide isn't the only stat to look at. You have to look at robbery, assault, home invasion, etc. Home invasion is on the rise in the metro Atlanta area and it's never just one guy. As I said, my friend actually receives the FBI report so I'm fairly confident he understands the data that is in it. He presented the information in his class to illustrate that times have changed and it's very likely that you will face more attackers than you would have back in the day.

You believe what you like. As I've said, look it up yourself, it's all there on fbi.gov. I've run a black and white for 20 years and been to Quantico myself. And I believe your friend quoted to you the average which would take in the Omaha metro area too as well as every one horse town between yours and mine.

C'Mon. Back it up with the link.

Posted: 6/9/2011 7:18:23 AM EDT

[#14]

yes, an FBI statistics link would be good info to continue this bantering. i've looked at fbi.gov and my search efforts have not come up with anything, but then again, my search capabilities are not that great.....

just would like to see some official govt stats

Posted: 6/9/2011 7:31:51 AM EDT

[#15]

This is not a metric represented in the FBI Uniform Crime Report. I did Google searches involving several variations on 'average number of assailants' for aggravated assault and other crimes. Nothing. Doesn't mean it isn't out there. Just doesn't come readily to hand.

If someone is a LEO and is flipping through reports for their area, I will take their word for it. The experience of an individual or even a department may not apply to my area, but it is still interesting insight.

If someone is saying 'according to such-and-such organization the stats are this..' I think they are obligated to post a link. I certainly couldn't find it.

Posted: 6/9/2011 8:31:10 AM EDT

[#16]

I'm sorry, I just CAN'T believe that number is correct.

I watch the Indianapolis news for basically 2hrs after I get home from work and they RARELY have crimes committed by more than 2 or 3 individuals.

Matter of fact, in my 1.5 years in Indiana, I can't remember one time they've aired a crime that had more than 4 "criminals" involved.

To offset that number, people must be getting carjacked by 15 people at a time....

I'm not calling BS on Bradd, I'm just saying that his buddy MUST have read the wrong column or number. Think about it resonably for a second. An average of 5 assailants? That means for every asshole that steals a wallet, there's 6 guys doing something as a group to offset that. I don't buy it.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 6/9/2011 11:31:54 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Yes. You shoot until the threat is not a threat.

One? Six? How many will it take?

Once I am on you with my front sight, I'm staying on you until you have a reaction to my bullet impacts....

NSR!... NSR! From the indoor ready!......... UP!!!

Posted: 6/9/2011 1:21:29 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I love these threads - there is so much fantasy.

A S&W j frame in 38 spc or a ruger 380 you carry all the time is better than an m249 you only carry 50% of the time.

That's a silly argument.

Yes, a gun in the hand beats no gun in the hand. That wasn't ever the question.

The question is what is "enough"...and lots of people are basing their judgment of "enough" on flawed assumptions. Bad guys do like to run in packs for the same reasons wolves do. Limiting the conversation to reasonable handgun calibers, having a bigger bullet does not translate into a better chance of putting a bad guy down than a smaller one. The capability to have outgoing fire for as long as possible before needing a reload is a distinct advantage in any problem that must be solved with gunfire.

Making an intelligent choice is nigh unto impossible if people don't understand what the actual problem they are trying to solve looks like. Unfortunately most people don't have that understanding because of lack of personal familiarity, lack of training, and reliance on bad sources of information. (Movies, TV, gun magazines, Uncle Bob, etc.)

Quoted:
The reality is, being engaged by multiple attackers is a bit of a wet dream for many and rare for your average Joe.

Just about all of the on the street assault (excluding instances of domestic violence, etc) or armed robbery attempt I'm aware of in my area in the last 12 months has involved at least 2 bad guys. I wouldn't refer to multiple attackers as anyone's "wet dream"...it's a fucking nightmare.

...but supposing that there's just one guy, there are lots of documented instances of one guy soaking up a lot of bullets and continuing to do whatever it was that was getting him shot in the first place. If someone has the drop on you and is in the process of trying to kill you, it's highly unlikely that a single handgun bullet is going to render them instantly harmless. You can pretty much bet on a bad guy requiring multiple shots. Under gunfight conditions that are probably in low light on a moving target that is shooting back...well...suddenly that 15 round payload doesn't really seem like a lot of ammo.

You misunderstand my "wet dream" comment. Youve been here long enough to hear some pretty ridiclous loadouts and how some people insist on carrying more ammo and reloads than the average US soldier in a combat zone. Yeah, it would be a nightmare, but for some it seems like they are just itching to go balls to the wall shooting till slide lock and doing 4-5 reloads.

If your going to need all that, youve got yourself in a world of hurt and would be much better to use your weapon to retreat than go 4, 5, 6:1.

Also remember every bullet comes with a lawyer attatched and your responsible for where every round goes. My logic says if im outside optimal range im getting the hell out of Dodge for one person, much less 2 or more.

Posted: 6/9/2011 4:18:58 PM EDT

[#19]

You know, whenever I see a thread like this, with it diverse opinions, I have a few questions. Of those who have so far posted, how many have been in a firefight? And how many of those were with a handgun? And lastly, how many were not police or military related?

I know what I have experienced, and although I've been in firefights, and on one, and only one ocassion used a 1911A1, none were in a non military situation. So, my "experience" was with multiple (didn't think it wise to try and count them) "assailants". Here's my take. If you plan to engage multiple, heavily armed "assailants" you best have, as many as possible, very good people to the right and left of you. Even then, it's a crap shoot.

But what the heck, I'm old, carry a 1911A1 with a 7 round magazine. What do I know.

Posted: 6/9/2011 6:04:20 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
You know, whenever I see a thread like this, with it diverse opinions, I have a few questions. Of those who have so far posted, how many have been in a firefight? And how many of those were with a handgun? And lastly, how many were not police or military related?

I know what I have experienced, and although I've been in firefights, and on one, and only one ocassion used a 1911A1, none were in a non military situation. So, my "experience" was with multiple (didn't think it wise to try and count them) "assailants". Here's my take. If you plan to engage multiple, heavily armed "assailants" you best have, as many as possible, very good people to the right and left of you. Even then, it's a crap shoot.

But what the heck, I'm old, carry a 1911A1 with a 7 round magazine. What do I know.

Well said.......................

Posted: 6/9/2011 6:53:17 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
You know, whenever I see a thread like this, with it diverse opinions, I have a few questions. Of those who have so far posted, how many have been in a firefight? And how many of those were with a handgun? And lastly, how many were not police or military related?

I know what I have experienced, and although I've been in firefights, and on one, and only one ocassion used a 1911A1, none were in a non military situation. So, my "experience" was with multiple (didn't think it wise to try and count them) "assailants". Here's my take. If you plan to engage multiple, heavily armed "assailants" you best have, as many as possible, very good people to the right and left of you. Even then, it's a crap shoot.

But what the heck, I'm old, carry a 1911A1 with a 7 round magazine. What do I know.

That's the thing. We aren't talking about a firefight. We're talking about going about your day-to-day civilian life and being thrust into a situation where your life is unexpectedly threatened by one or more assailants. We're talking about being in a position where you have to fight with what you have on your person right then.

I don't get to walk around with a rifle and wearing a plate carrier. I don't get to go about my daily business with a bunch of my armed buddies with me. Per state law my weapon has to be "concealed from normal sight." With that requirement in mind, the gun I'd want to have on me if I needed it is the one I carry.

I'll use common sense, situational awareness, avoidance, and everything else I can. If that fails, it may be a "crap shoot", but I'll go into that crap shoot with the most capable handgun I can carry - not something that's "probably good enough."

Posted: 6/10/2011 11:15:43 PM EDT

[#22]

This thread is stupid, sounds like a bunch of pre-teen girls debating who the hottest teen idol is.

Posted: 6/11/2011 4:10:20 AM EDT

[#23]

[quoteI can easily swim the length of the local YMCA's lap-pool at full-speed without taking a breath. I'm not skinny either; I bench 245 and run a 7min20second mile. Therefore, my brain and muscles have plenty of oxygen in them to inflict a severe beat-down before I pass-out/loose-steam,... most criminals (I would imagine) are of similar fitness to me.
[/quote]

I am willing to bet you/ (typical bad guy fitness) would not have as much fire after a few .45 slugs were in you. I may be able to move, run, and defend myself hand to hand for a few seconds after the delivery. I have never been shot, but I understand adrinaline. I have trained and sparred in MA and know one punch does't put a man down like hollywood movies. Knives or bullets are more serious. Not being able to breathe, joint or limb disablement takes alot of "the fight out of a dog." Adrinaline works both sides as Mine will rise if I am dropping a hammer.

Posted: 6/11/2011 4:49:12 AM EDT

[#24]

A gunfight is like a box of chocolates, You never know what you're gonna get.
Or as my buddy puts it,
'If two magazinefuls from a P7 doesn't get it done, I'm going back to the truck for my rifle.'

Posted: 6/11/2011 5:26:25 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
This thread is stupid, sounds like a bunch of pre-teen girls debating who the hottest teen idol is.

After a certain point, I agree this thread has certainly gotten to this point. Carry what you train with in a service caliber variety and always have it on you. Prayer is underrated too. These two things are all you can really do.

Posted: 6/11/2011 6:17:36 AM EDT

[#26]

Posted: 6/11/2011 7:21:27 AM EDT

[#27]

Like anything else, this is a tradeoff.

You want something small, light, thin, easily concealable, and comfortable every day that you don't "need" it.

The day you do "need" it, you want a full-size double stack in a big caliber, and you won't care how light or comfortable it is.

One guy might go through every day of his life in the worst part of the biggest city and never need a weapon.

Another guy might be "out in the country" and have multiple run-ins with methed-out bikers.

And there's no way to know ahead of time which day is the day.

Posted: 6/11/2011 8:15:44 AM EDT

[#28]

I used to be one of the guys carrying a low capacity gun, thinking that 8 with at least one reload was enough.

I work for a city near Chicago. In the past two or three years, we've been getting 'wildings' (lately they have been in the Chicago news), 10-15 young urbanites set upon individuals or couples, beat them severely and take their wallets. The sport in this is primarily in the beatings, the wallets seem an afterthought. Of the calls I've been to about 80% of victims get ambulance rides. Maybe half that get to stay at the hospital. These incidents have been getting more frequent.

I have upgraded my off duty carry to higher capacity, (G19, G17, always at least one reload) as a direct result of these wildings. I adjusted my carry habits to reflect the threat in my area.

Don't believe your personal choice is some kind of death ray, don't get sucked into dogmatic thinking about capacity. Be flexible, adapt.

YMMV

Posted: 6/11/2011 9:31:01 AM EDT

[#29]

Anyone that thinks they are just gonna pull off a 1v5 like Jason Statham, try playing some Xball or speedball. You'll learn real quick that once you get pinched, it's damn near impossible to not get shot. But

if five guys come charging me, I'll be totally fine; I've seen Ong Bak 1,2,&3. But in all honesty, if you get into a fight where 8+1 is insufficient, you're probably gonna be wishing you had a long gun anyway.

Granted, I'll take more ammo in the gun any day of the week, but realistically, if I can run a 1911 better than I can run a Glock or M&P, you can bet your sweet ass I'm carrying a 1911. I believe that 8+1 is t

totally sufficient for my foreseeable needs. Granted I can't begin to imagine all the possibilities where 8+1 isn't sufficient, but if I have to employ my firearm in public, you better believe that I'll be accountable

for every one of those rounds. I'm not gonna be spraying and praying. Make em' count boys. Single stacks may not work for everyone, but I know they are definitely good to go in my book.

-Rarick

Posted: 6/11/2011 9:35:31 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

"Don't believe your personal choice is some kind of death ray, don't get sucked into dogmatic thinking about capacity. Be flexible, adapt."

Good word brother

Posted: 6/11/2011 9:58:33 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
I used to be one of the guys carrying a low capacity gun, thinking that 8 with at least one reload was enough.

I work for a city near Chicago. In the past two or three years, we've been getting 'wildings' (lately they have been in the Chicago news), 10-15 young urbanites set upon individuals or couples, beat them severely and take their wallets. The sport in this is primarily in the beatings, the wallets seem an afterthought. Of the calls I've been to about 80% of victims get ambulance rides. Maybe half that get to stay at the hospital. These incidents have been getting more frequent.

I have upgraded my off duty carry to higher capacity, (G19, G17, always at least one reload) as a direct result of these wildings. I adjusted my carry habits to reflect the threat in my area.

Don't believe your personal choice is some kind of death ray, don't get sucked into dogmatic thinking about capacity. Be flexible, adapt.

YMMV

Man can you imagine the backlash if some CCW smoked 15 of those little fuckwads!?!

'But my baby dint do nuffing'

Posted: 6/11/2011 11:25:38 AM EDT

[#32]

Is it me, or is the level of posturing in this thread higher than average?

Posted: 6/11/2011 12:30:13 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Is it me, or is the level of posturing in this thread higher than average?

What you talking about? Since this thread started I've started to carry a MP5K-PDW with two 30 round mags clamped together. Also stopped messing around with my folding knife and got a Gerber MKII opposite to the MP5K.

My belt is lined with TNT and I should add I started wearing one of the goth type belts with spikes. Should I be about to lose I pull a 'Predator's last stand' move laugh and BOOM!

Posted: 6/11/2011 1:18:55 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Is it me, or is the level of posturing in this thread higher than average?

What you talking about? Since this thread started I've started to carry a MP5K-PDW with two 30 round mags clamped together. Also stopped messing around with my folding knife and got a Gerber MKII opposite to the MP5K.

My belt is lined with TNT and I should add I started wearing one of the goth type belts with spikes. Should I be about to lose I pull a 'Predator's last stand' move laugh and BOOM!

I've got a similar belt but mine is made out of DetCord.

Posted: 6/11/2011 2:03:04 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Is it me, or is the level of posturing in this thread higher than average?

This thread reads like it should be in GD, not in the l Handgun Forum.

Posted: 6/12/2011 3:57:20 AM EDT

[#36]

Having been in a couple of gunfights in my life I'm gonna say this now.
If you are accosted by multiple assailants and that number exceeds 2, your best line of defense is to beat a hasty retreat.
A single armed man attempting to take on more is going to lose I don't care how good he thinks he is.
When the targets start shootiung back it is only a matter of time before a bullet will find its mark in you.

I know of a number of people who tackled more than two at once.
Most are dead, the rest all carry the effects of bullet wounds to this day, one that survived readily admits the outcome of his actions were nothing but pure dumb luck, skill and tactics had nothing to do with it, the light of God was shining down on him that day and he has not one whit of desire to ever relive the experience again.

It is a nice feeling to have 12 or 16 rounds stuffed in a handgun, I am in that camp, but if eight is all you got and the shooting starts you have to be smart enough to KNOW whether you can stop the attack right then or asshole and elbows it out of there.

When the shooting starts, I can assure you whatever you have in your hands, the thought will cross your mind that it ISN'T going to be big enough and ISN'T going to have enough bullets!
And at that point in time you will determine to sally forth or run like hell.

Posted: 6/12/2011 11:18:48 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
We ALL draw the line somewhere.

Why just one gun? Why not have 2? One per side, let's say, so that whichever arm gets involved in a grapple you still have a draw option.
Why semi-auto? In the OP's example he had to deal with a grappler pushing the slide out of battery. How many of you practice dealing with that? With a revolver, you can put the muzzle into fat-ass' gut and pull the trigger.

So long as you draw the line somewhere on the positive side of "armed" and are proficient you'll do a whole lot better than most.

And yes, I have regularly carried a high capacity handgun before (Para P-14/45). But I feel pretty confident with a pair of 7-shot .357 Magnums on my belt.

When I carry w/ either tuckable at 4:30, I can draw with either hand. strong side or behind the back with the weak hand if needed.

Posted: 6/12/2011 12:44:12 PM EDT

[#38]

Murder stats, single victim and single offender are largest percentage.

I couldn't find other instances of violent crime, but I'm certain they are there. People claiming that the average number of attackers is now at 5 cannot request proof to the contrary. They are making the claim; they must show proof. When previously established statistics are challenged, the challenger must show proof, not the person citing established numbers. Come on, people. I know many of you have college educations.

Posted: 6/12/2011 1:04:40 PM EDT

[#39]

Here it is. Page 50 of the report.

75.8% of violent crimes involve one offender.

Bureau of Justice Statistics. Iron clad info (as far as we have). Utilizes info from the Nation Crime Victims Survey (NCVS).

Who knew I'd actually use stuff I'm learning in school?

Edit: the disparity between single and multiple offenders is decreased with violent crimes committed by strangers. There are quite a few multiple-offender attacks. Still, the majority remains at one offender.

Posted: 6/13/2011 1:34:45 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:

We ALL draw the line somewhere.

Why just one gun? Why not have 2? One per side, let's say, so that whichever arm gets involved in a grapple you still have a draw option.

Why semi-auto? In the OP's example he had to deal with a grappler pushing the slide out of battery. How many of you practice dealing with that? With a revolver, you can put the muzzle into fat-ass' gut and pull the trigger.

So long as you draw the line somewhere on the positive side of "armed" and are proficient you'll do a whole lot better than most.

And yes, I have regularly carried a high capacity handgun before (Para P-14/45). But I feel pretty confident with a pair of 7-shot .357 Magnums on my belt.

So long as the BG doesn't grab the cylinder or put his thumb in between the hammer and frame, or trigger and trigger guard.

Weapons all have ways of defeat. It's important to learn good tactics with what ever you are carrying.

Expect the unexpected.

Dave N

Reminds me of a show I saw once on Swords where they had like 50 different ways to beat a sword since it was the "main" weapon.

Posted: 6/13/2011 3:56:38 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Here it is. Page 50 of the report.

75.8% of violent crimes involve one offender.

Bureau of Justice Statistics. Iron clad info (as far as we have). Utilizes info from the Nation Crime Victims Survey (NCVS).

Who knew I'd actually use stuff I'm learning in school?

Edit: the disparity between single and multiple offenders is decreased with violent crimes committed by strangers. There are quite a few multiple-offender attacks. Still, the majority remains at one offender.

So nearly a quarter is more than one offender? Enough to worry about.

Robberies:
single offender 57.4
two 18.5
three 9.1
four or more 10.3

Posted: 6/13/2011 8:48:59 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
8 +1 is what my gun holds, that's the reason for carrying an additional two magazines, I like 25 as a nice round number.

So is 50. My gun holds 15+1 with two 17 round reloads. ;)

Either way I am not to worried about it as I usually maintain good awareness and try to avoid these situations.

Posted: 6/13/2011 8:50:45 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
i feel confident enough in being able to defend myself with the 10 rounds of 180 grain .40s in my gun. im not about to downgrade to a 9mm so i can carry 50 rounds because some guy used a paintball gun on his fat friends.

sorry but that link proves nothing. it shows that a fat guy can still fight after being shot with a paintball gun. big whoop. hit him with a .40 or a .45 and see if hes still got enuff wind left to fight.

so i ask. why buy a gun you know your going to have to hit a suspect with multiple times to inflict the same damage as a larger caliber? defeats the point of having more bullets if you ask me.

I don't think that .40 S&W would make that much difference. But more importantly it was a demonstration and they were using simunitions but it was not meant to imply that a "paintball" would stop him.

Posted: 6/14/2011 6:49:47 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

My dilema: I have relatively small hands. Not a lot of double stacks fit me well. So, since single stacks tend to fit me better, I often go with the .45. Not ideal, I know, but we all have to adapt to what our best options are given our personal limitations and circumstances.

Yeah. I don't like your use of the word "ideal" buddy. What you've done (assuming you train...and that everyone else trains) is done the ideal preparation for your situation.

My personal ideal might be 13+1. Which in certain situations allows for another 13, or 26. While in other situations like working, running, exercising, the ideal becomes 5 .38 specials.

All trade-offs. If you're telling me the single stack is what works for you....your setup is "ideal."

Posted: 6/14/2011 8:45:26 AM EDT

[#45]

More is better nuff said.

Posted: 6/14/2011 11:56:25 AM EDT

[#46]

I carry 51 rounds. 21 rounds in the gun and 30 in 1 extra mag IWB. Obviously, that is probably more than I'll ever need but for me, CCW is all about confidence. To hit what you are aiming at, having sufficient performance (ballistics/penetration), knowing the weapons system you are using, being hyper aware, knowing that you can be violent if met with violence, and having enough rounds if needed all promote confidence for me.

Posted: 6/14/2011 8:46:53 PM EDT

[#47]

Outside of action flicks and Walter Mitty fantasies, it's really hard to get the drop on more than 8 armed guys and shooting them before they put several into you. You should be using that handgun to get out of that situation and nothing more. Fact of the matter is that you're stuck with a mere pistol and outnumbered. You need to do something about both of those by getting out.

We can turn the question around and say for those who think 9mm or .40 is enough and talk about the merits of a magnum cartridge instead. Same thing. You're focusing too much on equipment to the point that you think it gives you some magical ability to throw tactics right out the window.

Posted: 6/15/2011 3:55:48 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
Outside of action flicks and Walter Mitty fantasies, it's really hard to get the drop on more than 8 armed guys and shooting them before they put several into you.

People really need to stop thinking that 1 bullet = 1 bad guy. It doesn't. People don't instantly fall down and die when they're hit with a bullet from a handgun. They tend to take multiple hits to get the message. A wise man with plenty of experience putting bad guys in the ground once mentioned that he considered bad guys a minimum 5 shot problem. So a Glock 19 has enough medicine for 3 bad guys, etc.

You should be using that handgun to get out of that situation and nothing more.

You're speaking as if you have a choice in the matter. The unfortunate truth is that you typically do not. People don't reach for a handgun because it's one of a plethora of good options for solving the problem. They tend to reach for the handgun because they believe that it's their last option for solving the problem. You're probably pulling a handgun because you are in a world of shit. The attack is either mere seconds away or, more likely, already underway. You're probably being attacked in a bottleneck from whence there are no really good avenues of escape. Bad guys look to set up exactly that sort of situation because it increases their chances of success. The only real way out is likely to be through the dude(s) who is causing the problem.

"Just getting out" of the situation may require extreme aggression and killing multiple individuals, or one really determined one. See the previously posted youtube video about Officer Reston for an example of that.

There are very few useful tactics once the attack is in progress. Once bullets are flying the best tactic left is to shoot the other guy in vital organs until he stops fighting. Then repeat for any buddies he's brought to the fight. Setting up the angles to work for you and attempting to keep the bad guys within a manageable 90 degrees will certainly be helpful...but that's something you start to set up before it goes to guns.