Quoted: Quoted: Generally lights are risky to dumb anyone with a lick of common sense will shoot at the light and you will be behind it.   Lights & Lasers = Bullet magnets nothing against you but that is the biggest misinformed myth about lights.  All you have to do is do a little bit of rersearch about low light shooting and how to properly use a light and you will find out that not only is it completely untrue but you can actually dominate the fight with the light.  It's not like you turn the light on and just stand there.  Interval light and move.

I can make an educated guess what side of the board you spend your time at.  I am fully aware of what a bright light in the eyes does in low light, still would not do it.  That said I have a Glock with a laser, almost never use the laser I think the batteries ran out about a year ago.  Spending time playing with your accessories in a gunfight will just get you killed, not to mention that does not really go through your head when you're being shot at.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Generally lights are risky to dumb anyone with a lick of common sense will shoot at the light and you will be behind it.   Lights & Lasers = Bullet magnets nothing against you but that is the biggest misinformed myth about lights.  All you have to do is do a little bit of rersearch about low light shooting and how to properly use a light and you will find out that not only is it completely untrue but you can actually dominate the fight with the light.  It's not like you turn the light on and just stand there.  Interval light and move. I can make an educated guess what side of the board you spend your time at.  I am fully aware of what a bright light in the eyes does in low light, still would not do it.  That said I have a Glock with a laser, almost never use the laser I think the batteries ran out about a year ago.  Spending time playing with your accessories in a gunfight will just get you killed, not to mention that does not really go through your head when you're being shot at.

If you don't want to use a light than that's your business, I'm sure there are people out there who are not comfortable using a light.  It seems like your saying that no one should use a light because it's a major disadvantage that will get you killed.  You do realize that just about every SWAT team and SF unit uses lights on their weapons and I'm willing to bet that they might know something you don't.  Like I sdaid earlier if you don't want a light thats  fine but don't say  that a light if properly used will get you killed.

Quoted: If you would just tape a bright flashlight to a tape recorder playing the should of a pump shotgun being racked over and over again, then all the bad guys would give up immediatly.

Now THAT would be funny.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: In a self defense situation you must be in fear for your life or a loved one's in order to be justified in using lethal force. Those distances are distances that one should have the ability to easily shoot one handed. Untrained armed individuals will shoot at the light; it is a natural instinct. My ability to hold that light away from my body helps in not getting shot. Rather important, I think Also, low light training can be difficult to come by, especially light technique (as important as firearms training IMHO) , and shooting a gun while holding the light switch down on a weapon mounted light is more difficult to practice than one handed shooting. Flashlights are useful things. I like to be able use mine for things other than IDing the intruder. Given a choice, I'd take the handheld, but certainly having BOTH (in true ARFCOM tradition) would be ideal. Whatever you do, have a lanyard so that you can let go of the light to do mag changes, open doors etc. and the light remains quickly accessible to your weak hand. Additionaly, the lanyard  can be used to "roll" a flashlight into a room allowing you to quickly scan the room without exposing yourself.   Much Obliged, and I have learned from your comments. Learning Please explain how you can roll a light with a lanyard into a room.  Then... how you can recover it when it ends up rolling where the beam is pointing back at you, without exposing yourself. Then what you use for a light if you can't safely recover it? ...or what will keep the bad guy from recovering your light if you can't recover it and the BG safely can? That's why you hold onto the lanyard. I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. If you go practice this and apply the fundamental idea, you'll understand. I'm not saying it's the best, but it is a possibility. Take a class that teaches low light/flashlight technique; there are all kinds of ideas out there. Some may work for you, some may not; that is why you take as many classes from as many different people as possible so that YOU may make the decision about which ideas/techniques work best for YOU.

TheHellURider

Please explain how long the lanyard should be to be rolled into a room.  The only lanyard I have seen on a flashlight is a Surefire that is about a foot long.  It has the ability to be tethered to the wrist of the support hand.

What classes have you taken or would you recommend?  I would like to know who teaches a long lanyard and the roll into a room method.  What is your training & experience in tactical use of flashlights?


Funny you should suggest seeking training.  I have had a little training on the subject.  I was a senior firearms instructor for a major federal agency for about 19 years.  I retired last month.  The most recent training I graduated from was a 40 plus hour low light/flashlight instructor course a couple of years back.  You might have heard of it... Surefire Academy.  The training division of Surefire Flashlight.  (There is way more material covered in that classs to even try and post in this thread.)

Seriously... I'd like to learn more about the roll the light into the room on a lanyard method.  I am still learning too... and will continue to seek knowledge as long as I draw breath.  If you have any printed matter or a web reference... or information on who teaches and uses this method, PLEASE email the information.  I have never heard of it commonly used in the profession.

Thanks!

Quoted: I know this is long but its good. This is from the people I took my ccw training from... Everytime I watch COPS on TV I flinch. You see some cops running around holding their flashlights like a bunch of idiots. They all look like they are making a movie, were trained and swallowed the nonsense like robots and never questioned how it is done in the real world because what they learn "looks cool." That is the honest real life truth... ...The vast majority of the time you will know damn well if you are in danger, and the range will be so close a flashlight will have little application or advantage. You don't need an electronic security blanket or something to keep your hands busy.

Yes it is long so I won't repost it all.  It has some good information... but it also has a lot of biased opinion of that individual.  I feel I must comment of sone of the points.  Forgive me!

"The everytime I watch Cops" comment, I think it is wrong to call them idiots.  The camera present changes their routine, and I am more concerned about the officer's safety due to "mugging" for the camera or paying attention to the camera more than the people they have stopped or are dealing with during a call.  I must agree somewhat.  Running with a light on may be a bad thing.  The suspect can see you.  On the other hand so can you co-workers.  They know where you are by the light and won'r get you mixed up with the BG in the dark.  I don't want to get shot by friendly fire because a co-worker did not properly ID the target in the dark! A light is often needed for that.

"Back in the 60's"  It sounds like the guy is at least 10 years older than me.  May have retired before me... and may have retire before some of the newer lights & techniques were developed.  Yep... Kel-lite, I remember them... smashing windows, thumping BGs... then having them taken away by some department because of that and a mandatory issue of a cheap plastic flashlight.  Can't crack skulls with one of them!  Can't shhe shit with one either, can't use the light tactically... etc... etc.. etc...

"First of all, it is dam seldom an officer or civilian is walking in an area without enough light to see."  WHAT!  Civilian sure... officer NOT.  I am thinking his experience and my experience must be dramatically different!  Day and night a light is needed!  Windowless areas in homes and building can be too dark to see.  What bothers me, is an officer working days who does not carry a flashlight!

"Years ago the FBI said you must hold the light away from your body."  I am not a fan of the FBI. But to slightly defend this technique.  "Back in the day" it WAS a high tech solution... to cheap dim flashlights used at the time.  As flashlights got better... this technique got stupider!

I had a co-worker I was training with the Surefire lights when THEY FIRST CAME INTO USE.  He argued the FBI method was the best method in the dark and not the Surefire weapon next to light method (more on this later).  I went into our range, turned out all the lights.  I walked down range and used the FBI method.  I asked him this.  Can you actually see me?  His answer, yes.  Could you shoot me?  His answer yes.  Next I advanced on him simulating the Surefire method and had the light in his eyes.  Can you see me or shoot me know.  As he is dodging the light and covering his eyes he cussed at me to get the light out of his eyes.  I proved my point to him.

"One of my favorites is how the flashlight beam will DAZZLE the suspect."  It will not daze or dazzle.  BUT a good tactical flashlight will dramatically effect a persons night vision.  Do you doubt this?  Go into a dark area.  Close your eyes.  Take a tactical flishlight like a Surefire and shine it into you own CLOSED eyes.  There will be enough light transmitted through your eyelids to dramatically effect your ability to see well in the dark.  In training, I always hated when I took a full shot of light in my open eyes.  I could not see crap for way too much time to fight effectively!

"We urge our students to use both hands to shoot... ...and to bring the flashlight ONLY when everything is under control."  I don't even know what to comment about this... other than how do you identify the BG from you kid who snuck out of the house and woke you up when they returned.  With you seriously thinking the kid is in bed and this is a BG.  IN FACT family members have been shot when it was ASSUMED they were in their room and a BG was in the house.  A light used to ID the BG would have prevented this tragedy!

"We show a two person approach... one with the light... ...other person with two hands on the gun."  So... who is this partner going to be?  Your spouse who can draw fire from the GB by holding the light for you while you stand in a dark spot?  How does this work on stairways?  Not practical for the home or an individual CCW!

"I have seen officers with flashlights in their hands in daytime hours."  GOD I HOPE SO!  If a professional does not see the need for a flashlight working days... I don't want to work with them.  WHY?  Because it was always guys like this that wanted to borrow my second flashlight I carried.  The second light was my spare when the first went dead or I got seperated from it somehow... I WAS NOT CARRYING EQUIPMENT FOR MY PARTNER TO USE!

"We have compared flashlight shooting vs no flashlight shooting...  without a flashlight is a no contest winner EVERYTIME."  I am not sure where to start on this...  I have trained a bunch of students i low light/flashlight.  I always fire the course first without using lights, then again with lights.  Who scores best?  The ones who use night sights AND flashlights.  You need night sights for a sight picture AND you need the flashlight to ID the target.  A hole in a "no shoot" target is embarrassing when scored.  If you shoot a family member in your home in the dark because you did not have the light or use the light to ID the "threat" it is way past embarrassing!

More to follow...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: In a self defense situation you must be in fear for your life or a loved one's in order to be justified in using lethal force. Those distances are distances that one should have the ability to easily shootone handed. Untrained armed individuals will shoot at the light; it is a natural instinct. My ability to hold that light away from my body helps in not getting shot. Rather important, I think Also, low light training can be difficult to come by, especially light technique (as important as firearms training IMHO) , and shooting a gun while holding the light switch down on a weapon mounted light is more difficult to practice than one handed shooting. Flashlights are useful things. I like to be able use mine for things other than IDing the intruder. Given a choice, I'd take the handheld, but certainly having BOTH (in true ARFCOM tradition) would be ideal. Whatever you do, have a lanyard so that you can let go of the light to do mag changes, open doors etc. and the light remains quickly accessible to your weak hand. Additionaly, the lanyard  can be used to "roll" a flashlight into a room allowing you to quickly scan the room without exposing yourself.   Much Obliged, and I have learned from your comments. Learning Please explain how you can roll a light with a lanyard into a room.  Then... how you can recover it when it ends up rolling where the beam is pointing back at you, without exposing yourself. Then what you use for a light if you can't safely recover it? ...or what will keep the bad guy from recovering your light if you can't recover it and the BG safely can? That's why you hold onto the lanyard. I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. If you go practice this and apply the fundamental idea, you'll understand. I'm not saying it's the best, but it is a possibility. Take a class that teaches low light/flashlight technique; there are all kinds of ideas out there. Some may work for you, some may not; that is why you take as many classes from as many different people as possible so that YOU may make the decision about which ideas/techniques work best for YOU. TheHellURider Please explain how long the lanyard should be to be rolled into a room.  The only lanyard I have seen on a flashlight is a Surefire that is about a foot long.  It has the ability to be tethered to the wrist of the support hand. What classes have you taken or would you recommend?  I would like to know who teaches a long lanyard and the roll into a room method.  What is your training & experience in tactical use of flashlights? Funny you should suggest seeking training.  I have had a little training on the subject.  I was a senior firearms instructor for a major federal agency for about 19 years.  I retired last month.  The most recent training I graduated from was a 40 plus hour low light/flashlight instructor course a couple of years back.  You might have heard of it... Surefire Academy.  The training division of Surefire Flashlight.  (There is way more material covered in that classs to even try and post in this thread.) Seriously... I'd like to learn more about the roll the light into the room on a lanyard method.  I am still learning too... and will continue to seek knowledge as long as I draw breath.  If you have any printed matter or a web reference... or information on who teaches and uses this method, PLEASE email the information.  I have never heard of it commonly used in the profession. Thanks!

Well then by all means, I'll retract my suggestion as a POSSIBILITY since you are an expert and clearly are a little sarcastic.

If you must know, the roll method was shown to me by a SWAT officer in Dallas, certainly not a highly acclaimed Surefire Institute instructor.

However, this is the internet and I was simply trying to add to the conversation so I'm not going to sit here and waste my breath defending myself further to you.

As Paul Harvey says... now, page two!

I do agree to a point about the "experts" who name a technique after themself.  Vanity is not the word to describe their mind set... I think of  words more like delusions of grandeur.

Here are some of the flashlight techniques commonly known...

FLASHLIGHT TECHNICS:


Extended Arm Technique  (The old FBI method which is outdated/obsolete, light held at arms length from body)
Advantages:  light is away from body - aiming point is usually the light
Disadvantage:  arm fatigues quickly, your light may silhouette you, difficult to coordinate movement between gun and light, gun hand has no additional support from off hand, stance takes a large area not taking advantage of cover

Harries Technique (back of hand against back of hand, flashlight in support hand, thumb of support hand activates the light) (see www.thegunzone.com/people/michael.html)
Advantages:  flashlight moves with the gun, gun hand has support from off hand, can be used from a cover position,  more rapid target ID - light on duration usually shorter
Disadvantages: light provides aiming point close to body, you may sweep muzzle across hand holding flashlight when assuming positioning from the holster

SIG-Sauer Technique (requires a Surefire light with the small diameter body and rubber ring, light is held in support hand between the ring and “social” finger, the palm of hand depresses the “on” button. Support hand is palm of hand to palm of gun hand)
Advantages:  Same as Harries
Disadvantages:  requires a special model Sure-fire flashlight, light switch more difficult to manipulate, light more easily dropped, lanyard use a must, lanyard can snag on stuff

Chapman Technique (much like a conventional two handed weapon hold, but a “C” sized flashlight is held between the support hand and the gun with the switch operated with the support thumb)
Advantages:  flashlight moves with the gun, gun hand has support from off hand, can be used from a cover position, more rapid target ID - light on duration usually shorter
Disadvantages:  light provides aiming point close to body, works only with conventional “C” cell size flashlights lights, more easily dropped difficult for persons with small hands

Ayoob Technique (flashlight in support hand, gun in strong hand, both simply held together, straight out in an Isosceles position)
Advantages:  flashlight moves with the gun, gun hand has some support from off hand,can be used from a cover position, more rapid target ID - light on duration usually shorter
Disadvantages:  light provides aiming point close to body, works only with conventional “C” & “D” cell size flashlights lights where the switch is operated by the thumb of the support hand, very little weapon support from off hand

Weapon mounted lights
Advantages:  weapon hold is unchanged light can't be dropped light and weapon are always pointed at the same spot
Disadvantages:  requires a special holster adds weight to weapon if easily attached - must have the opportunity to mount flashlight is point of aim for opponent

SIGHTING DEVICES:

Night sights
Advantages:  require no batteries, always on weapon, brings eye to focus on sights at night, long life (10 to 12 years), very economical, very rugged
Disadvantages:  does not aid in target recognition, can be seen from rear by others

Electronic dot sights
Advantages:  clear aiming point, can keep eye focus toward danger area
Disadvantages: requires batteries, light dot can be seen by others - gives an aiming point, adds bulk to weapon, requires a special holster, does not aid in target recognition, shooter tends to train the eye to look for dot - failure to use weapon, sights when batteries fail

Laser sighting devices
Advantages:  clear aiming point, can keep eye focus toward danger area
Disadvantages:  requires batteries, light dot can be seen by others - gives an excellent aiming point for the bad guy, adds bulk to weapon, often requires a special holster, does not aid in target recognition, shooter tends to train the eye to look for dot- failure to use weapon sights when batteries fail, often unusable in bright light

REMEMBER MURPHY'S LAW - what can fail... will fail at the worst possible moment!

SOLUTIONS:  always think! ! ...keep thinking, carry a spare flashlight - yes...two flashlights, remember that electronic devices can not be counted on to always work, plan ahead - the best high tech equipment is useless if in is not where you need it

BOTTOM LINE:
Remember the three most important things about low light situations:
1. Target identification
2. Target identification
3. Target identification

For example of the different techniques, go to www.themartialist.com/1203/fightwithlight.htm and scroll down to the bottom of the page.

Ray Chapman, I know the man and he was a great shooter.  After his professional shooting career he opened a shooting school in Columbia , MO that was attended by may specops type people.  I think he taught the light technique and it just came to be know as the Chapman technique.  Ray is a modest man, down to earth type.  He is pretty old and his school continues now owned by a local gun club

Michael Harries, never met the man see www.thegunzone.com/people/michael.html for more information on him.

Surefire technique, very well known and widely used... I speculate the training academy developed the technique without any one person taking credit.

Massad Ayoob, seen the man a number of times.  I know other federal instructors who attended training where he came to the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC) at Glynco, Ga.  None were impressed with him, nor am I.  He has made a successful career by writing magazine articles and running Lethal Force Institute... and naming slightly modified techniques after himself.   What can I say... an attorney.  He has some very good stuff he teaches... but his “I am the greatest” demeanor has shied away many professionals from associating with him or teaching his modified, then named after himself techniques.  I am not Ayoob bashing... just not impressed with him.  Though many are, and he makes a very good living doing what he does, and you can’t be a totally off base and be as successful as he has been.  He has been very successful and well respected by many.  I think he has quit naming things after himself several years ago.

THellURider

Don't get your panties in a bunch!

I have heard of a very few using the flashlight on a leash method.  It is not well accepted in the profession, it has limited use, and it happens that when the flashlight is tossed when it can't be rolled... the bulb or something can break.  The most common I have heard is tossing a handful of light sticks (Chemlights) into a room.  No beam pointing the wrong direction, nothing to try and manipulate by means of a cord to move the light, nothing to break and then the light goes out.

Seriously... I was asking for material to the technique if available.  Things are constantly changing and I still seek to keep up with new stuff.

Candidly, none of the semi and true High Speed Low Drag use the light on a leash method, that I have heard of.  I don't think it is all that common in professional use just under that category.  

You just came off very informatively and assertively, and I was wanting to see if there was something I could get passed on from you from your training & experience.  

Thanks

Quoted: THellURider Don't get your panties in a bunch! I have heard of a very few using the flashlight on a leash method.  It is not well accepted in the profession, it has limited use, and it happens that when the flashlight is tossed when it can't be rolled... the bulb or something can break.  The most common I have heard is tossing a handful of light sticks (Chemlights) into a room.  No beam pointing the wrong direction, nothing to try and manipulate by means of a cord to move the light, nothing to break and then the light goes out. Seriously... I was asking for material to the technique if available.  Things are constantly changing and I still seek to keep up with new stuff. Candidly, none of the semi and true High Speed Low Drag use the light on a leash method, that I have heard of.  I don't think it is all that common in professional use just under that category.   You just came off very informatively and assertively, and I was wanting to see if there was something I could get passed on from you from your training & experience.   Thanks

Well, perhaps I misinterpreted some of what you wrote and vice versa. It's certainly not a technique I see a lot of use for either I was just mentioned it as an example of something that is possible to do with a light on a lanyard that could not be done with a weapon mounted light in an effort to demonstrate why I would prefer a handheld light to a weapon mounted light if I had to make the choice.

Most of the "higher end" training I have done does not teach this technique but any idea is just another tool in the toolbox. Who knows, someone may encounter that ONE situation where the roll technique is the best option. I try to remain openminded and make decisions on what applies to the situation best. That said, I'd love to make it to a Surefire Institute class sometime.