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Link Posted: 2/24/2016 1:36:00 AM EDT
I miss my late 90's P220. Beautiful, flawless. Should've never sold it!
Link Posted: 2/25/2016 12:23:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2016 12:32:51 PM EDT by yobo]
I have owned about 12 Sig pistols in past 30 years. Everything from Browning BDA to recent Sig 229 pistol.
IMHO the old Sigs that were made in Germany were mechanically more refined and reliable but had poor quality finished that would wear out quickly.  
When they started make then here in the US they seemed to have fixed the finish problem but there were more mechanical issues.
I still own and shoot couple Sig pistols and they are all older German made models...but with new durable aftermarket finish.

My current daily carry pistol.
Link Posted: 2/25/2016 1:41:21 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By America-first:
And now back to the question actually posed by this thread; the SIG MK 25 is unquestionably one of the highest quality pistols that is generally available in the marketplace, and not at all expensive for what you get.
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Originally Posted By America-first:



Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:

Extreme this, Legion that, blah, blah, blah.... they sure as shit like to charge a lot of money for guns with very little difference between the "fancy" models and a regular one.



The Mk25 I think is the biggest marketing scam out there.


And now back to the question actually posed by this thread; the SIG MK 25 is unquestionably one of the highest quality pistols that is generally available in the marketplace, and not at all expensive for what you get.
What do you get that can't be had on one of their P226 models? I've had mixed luck with Sig. In fact, I wish I never got rid of my P220. Awesome gun.
Link Posted: 2/25/2016 10:11:39 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ToyCop:
What do you get that can't be had on one of their P226 models? I've had mixed luck with Sig. In fact, I wish I never got rid of my P220. Awesome gun.
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Originally Posted By ToyCop:
Originally Posted By America-first:
Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:
Extreme this, Legion that, blah, blah, blah.... they sure as shit like to charge a lot of money for guns with very little difference between the "fancy" models and a regular one.

The Mk25 I think is the biggest marketing scam out there.




And now back to the question actually posed by this thread; the SIG MK 25 is unquestionably one of the highest quality pistols that is generally available in the marketplace, and not at all expensive for what you get.
What do you get that can't be had on one of their P226 models? I've had mixed luck with Sig. In fact, I wish I never got rid of my P220. Awesome gun.


I disagree. The Mk25 is no different than any of their other models in terms of production and QC. Unfortunately, as I witnessed first hand, the latter caused my faith in my (now former) Mk25 to wane. I sold it and bought a G17.4
Link Posted: 2/25/2016 10:40:56 PM EDT
Dec 2012 P220 carry, perfect.

OCT13 MK25, perfect.

My friend did get a 1911 Scorpion where the factory mags were junk though.
Link Posted: 2/25/2016 10:46:19 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By America-first:




And now back to the question actually posed by this thread; the SIG MK 25 is unquestionably one of the highest quality pistols that is generally available in the marketplace, and not at all expensive for what you get.
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Originally Posted By America-first:
Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:
Extreme this, Legion that, blah, blah, blah.... they sure as shit like to charge a lot of money for guns with very little difference between the "fancy" models and a regular one.

The Mk25 I think is the biggest marketing scam out there.




And now back to the question actually posed by this thread; the SIG MK 25 is unquestionably one of the highest quality pistols that is generally available in the marketplace, and not at all expensive for what you get.



I paid less for my MK25 than I did for my P220... It can be had on sale for cheaper or the same price as the standard P226. Where is the scam?
Link Posted: 2/26/2016 9:23:32 AM EDT
All the SIG pistols I've owned have been fine.

Where a lot of the quality control complaints come from are the rifles....especially the US made 551/556 and the First Gen 556R in particular. They've really screwed the pooch on that side of the house.
Link Posted: 2/26/2016 10:56:48 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:
2005 is when Ron J. Cohen left Kimber and started to fuck up Sig. The Gun of the week sales plan doesn't help either.
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,

This.

He's credited with saving Sig, but his cost cutting, use of improperly heat treated MIM parts, flavor of the week, is what took Sig down hill.

But of late, QC has admittedly gotten better. At least my now P224, and my Legion P226 SA/DA have been flawless.
Link Posted: 2/27/2016 12:59:44 AM EDT
I have have 2 SIG handguns that are only a few years old. The fit / finish and performance of both has been impeccable.
Link Posted: 2/27/2016 11:02:42 PM EDT
I've bought 4 Sigs over the last year. A P224, M11-A1, P226 Legion, and 1911 C3.
All have been outstanding. In fact, the M11-A1 is freakishly accurate, the best I've ever owned.
Link Posted: 2/29/2016 8:16:18 PM EDT
The responses by actual SIG owners in this thread belie the underlying premise of this thread that SIG's quality is somehow sub-par and, in fact speaks to the contrary.
Link Posted: 3/2/2016 8:02:51 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Dominion21:



THIS.

Sad to say it, but it is true.

Recently, they seem to turning things around with the intro of their own innovative suppressor line.
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Originally Posted By Dominion21:
Originally Posted By _DR:
When they started making them in the US.




THIS.

Sad to say it, but it is true.

Recently, they seem to turning things around with the intro of their own innovative suppressor line.





Total horseshit in my opinion and I've been shooting Sigs for over 20 years.  Some of the best pistols they ever made came out of Exeter NH in the mid 90's.  Some of the parts were made in Exeter and they also sent several over from Germany.  Funny thing when people see the slide stamped made in Germany they think the pistol was made in Germany.  All the sheet steal slides say made in Germany on them because they never produced these slides here.  Doesn't mean the pistol was made in Germany only the slide.
Link Posted: 3/2/2016 8:05:19 PM EDT
In June of last year I purchased a used, recent, P229 Enhanced Elite 9mm.  I have no idea how many rounds it had fired prior to my taking possession of it, but it was obviously no safe queen.

I have put 850 rounds of all kinds through it since that time, and it has been an exemplary pistol.  It is easy to shoot accurately (as easy as my Walther P99s that make me look like I know what I'm doing), and is buttery
smooth in it's operation.

I honestly only picked it up because the price was good, I never had any notion I'd ever be a Sig owner, but now, I definitely want another.

This is a great pistol.
Link Posted: 3/5/2016 3:17:59 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By America-first:
The responses by actual SIG owners in this thread belie the underlying premise of this thread that SIG's quality is somehow sub-par and, in fact speaks to the contrary.
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It's not that Sig's quality is sub-par.  It's that Sig's quality control is not as good as it use to be.
Link Posted: 3/28/2016 3:41:30 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Hunter-Killer:

It's not that Sig's quality is sub-par.  It's that Sig's quality control is not as good as it use to be.
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Originally Posted By Hunter-Killer:
Originally Posted By America-first:
The responses by actual SIG owners in this thread belie the underlying premise of this thread that SIG's quality is somehow sub-par and, in fact speaks to the contrary.

It's not that Sig's quality is sub-par.  It's that Sig's quality control is not as good as it use to be.


Please quantify that.
Link Posted: 3/28/2016 4:43:43 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By BobRoberts:
Please quantify that.
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Originally Posted By BobRoberts:



Originally Posted By Hunter-Killer:


Originally Posted By America-first:

The responses by actual SIG owners in this thread belie the underlying premise of this thread that SIG's quality is somehow sub-par and, in fact speaks to the contrary.


It's not that Sig's quality is sub-par.  It's that Sig's quality control is not as good as it use to be.





Please quantify that.
Issues with the 556 series of rifles, then the 556R rifles, then the 556Xi rifles. That's one example right there. How many recalls, corrections, and generational upgrades have their been?

 
Link Posted: 3/28/2016 6:53:44 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ToyCop:
What do you get that can't be had on one of their P226 models? I've had mixed luck with Sig. In fact, I wish I never got rid of my P220. Awesome gun.
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Originally Posted By ToyCop:
Originally Posted By America-first:
Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:
Extreme this, Legion that, blah, blah, blah.... they sure as shit like to charge a lot of money for guns with very little difference between the "fancy" models and a regular one.

The Mk25 I think is the biggest marketing scam out there.




And now back to the question actually posed by this thread; the SIG MK 25 is unquestionably one of the highest quality pistols that is generally available in the marketplace, and not at all expensive for what you get.
What do you get that can't be had on one of their P226 models? I've had mixed luck with Sig. In fact, I wish I never got rid of my P220. Awesome gun.


Short extractor. To my knowledge, the other models have the long extractor. Depends on who you ask if that is a big deal. I guess also that it is built to a standard. I don't think they can just change specs on it. I can't remember what I paid for mine, but it wasn't any more expensive than a regular p226 with night sights on it. It is one of the guns I won't ever get rid of.

I have never had a lemon from SIG. That is only out of the 3 guns. p226, p224, and most recently p320
Link Posted: 3/28/2016 7:09:41 PM EDT
Carried a glock for 5 years no issues,  bought a matching set of sig 226/229 extremes and they both rusted in the first month of carrying.  The customer service rep basically said yea they do that when you carry them because of your sweet.    Went back to carry my g19.  Not rust.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:52:23 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By BobRoberts:

Please quantify that.
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Originally Posted By BobRoberts:
Originally Posted By Hunter-Killer:
Originally Posted By America-first:
The responses by actual SIG owners in this thread belie the underlying premise of this thread that SIG's quality is somehow sub-par and, in fact speaks to the contrary.

It's not that Sig's quality is sub-par.  It's that Sig's quality control is not as good as it use to be.

Please quantify that.

Of those that answered other than "show me the results" only 28% answered "SIG's quality control never went down" with the majority voting for it starting to go down sometime during the 2000's.

Link Posted: 4/17/2016 9:39:07 PM EDT


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Originally Posted By SharnPenndroen:


Short extractor. To my knowledge, the other models have the long extractor. Depends on who you ask if that is a big deal. I guess also that it is built to a standard. I don't think they can just change specs on it.
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Sure they can...

 





Originally they all had internal extractors. No problems with those.


Then the switched to short external extractors around 2001. No problems with them either.


04-05 Cohen decided to subcontract extractors (among other parts) to India and make them MIM instead of investment casting. Failures occurred.


So many that they had to redesign into the long MIM extractor that's still produced today. They redesigned several parts and rolled those changes into production. This was when quality initially took a big nosedive.


Now they offer the short extractor on the MK25, along with the other redesigned MIM parts. Maybe they make good short extractors now, or had some left over from a Navy contract that actually had to be well-made. Who knows?


 
Link Posted: 4/18/2016 8:10:07 AM EDT
Exeter
Link Posted: 4/18/2016 8:31:29 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Hunter-Killer:

Of those that answered other than "show me the results" only 28% answered "SIG's quality control never went down" with the majority voting for it starting to go down sometime during the 2000's.

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Originally Posted By Hunter-Killer:
Originally Posted By BobRoberts:
Originally Posted By Hunter-Killer:
Originally Posted By America-first:
The responses by actual SIG owners in this thread belie the underlying premise of this thread that SIG's quality is somehow sub-par and, in fact speaks to the contrary.

It's not that Sig's quality is sub-par.  It's that Sig's quality control is not as good as it use to be.

Please quantify that.

Of those that answered other than "show me the results" only 28% answered "SIG's quality control never went down" with the majority voting for it starting to go down sometime during the 2000's.




You are answering with perception, not actual data. What constitutes a "nosedive"?
Link Posted: 4/18/2016 10:19:30 AM EDT
A dramatic increase in the number of parts failures and guns returned for warranty service would fit most people's definition of a "nosedive." Lots of folks around gun forums, gunsmith shops, and large ranges in those years may have noticed this occurrence, but only SIG is going to have the hard data. Do you really think that's something they would publish?
 
Link Posted: 4/18/2016 12:42:36 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By BobRoberts:



You are answering with perception, not actual data. What constitutes a "nosedive"?
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Originally Posted By BobRoberts:
Originally Posted By Hunter-Killer:
Originally Posted By BobRoberts:
Originally Posted By Hunter-Killer:
Originally Posted By America-first:
The responses by actual SIG owners in this thread belie the underlying premise of this thread that SIG's quality is somehow sub-par and, in fact speaks to the contrary.

It's not that Sig's quality is sub-par.  It's that Sig's quality control is not as good as it use to be.

Please quantify that.

Of those that answered other than "show me the results" only 28% answered "SIG's quality control never went down" with the majority voting for it starting to go down sometime during the 2000's.




You are answering with perception, not actual data. What constitutes a "nosedive"?


This.

And I was referring to those who: a) actually own and shoot SIG pistols and b) took the time to answer with a post in this thread regarding their experiences rather than merely hit the poll.

I've got tens of thousands of rounds through my SIGs and they've been superb.


Link Posted: 4/18/2016 1:01:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2016 1:12:38 PM EDT by Hunter-Killer]
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Originally Posted By BobRoberts:

You are answering with perception, not actual data. What constitutes a "nosedive"?
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Originally Posted By BobRoberts:
Originally Posted By Hunter-Killer:
Originally Posted By BobRoberts:
Originally Posted By Hunter-Killer:
It's not that Sig's quality is sub-par.  It's that Sig's quality control is not as good as it use to be.

Please quantify that.

Of those that answered other than "show me the results" only 28% answered "SIG's quality control never went down" with the majority voting for it starting to go down sometime during the 2000's.

You are answering with perception, not actual data. What constitutes a "nosedive"?
Originally Posted By America-first:
This.

And I was referring to those who: a) actually own and shoot SIG pistols and b) took the time to answer with a post in this thread regarding their experiences rather than merely hit the poll.

I've got tens of thousands of rounds through my SIGs and they've been superb.

Because that's all we have to go on.  Unless you have some actual data showing the QC hasn't gone down. This is simply an unscientific poll on a gun forum. No one is claiming it to be incontrovertible proof.

Also, it's not just here.  Based on what I've seen and heard the consensus in the gun community in general seems to be that Sig's QC is not as good as it use to be.

Again: no one is saying this serves as incontrovertible proof that the QC has gone down, all Sigs suck, your Sigs suck, etc.
Link Posted: 4/18/2016 3:15:43 PM EDT


I know that my SIGs don't suck and, of course, I can't speak for anyone else's, but folks often regurgitate what they've read on the internet back onto the internet.
Link Posted: 4/18/2016 3:44:47 PM EDT
I have an early '00s non railed stainless slide 226 thats a perfect performer, two late 2015 MK25s and two 239s that are also prefect, had a 2011 MK25 that was also perfect, have owned multiple other 226s, 228s, and 229s ranging from the late 90s to present and have never had an issue with any except for dead tritium vial on one night sight.  

I think they're fine and they don't stovepipe and dribble brass everywhere like some *ahem, other* pistols do....
Link Posted: 4/18/2016 7:49:25 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By America-first:






I know that my SIGs don't suck and, of course, I can't speak for anyone else's, but folks often regurgitate what they've read on the internet back onto the internet.

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I bought a new Sig P220 back i  the mid 2000s and it wouldn't feed period. I later bought a Sig 522 Carbine, the bolt broke within the first 100 rounds. I got that fixed with a new bolt after I had to pry it out of them for warranty work.

 



The only recent Sig that worked was my SP2022 in .40 S&W. And it didn't warm me over.
Link Posted: 4/18/2016 9:19:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2016 10:09:56 PM EDT by LonChaney]
As far as I'm concerned their QC has been suspect for the last 10 years.  We had 3 or 4 out of 30 LE 226's take a dump in the first 50 rounds. They started failing to reset.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 3:19:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2016 3:20:22 AM EDT by KitBuilder]
I own several SIG Sauer products: P220, P6, P226, P228, P229, and a SG 551 SWAT. They are all fine products, but you cannot convince me there was not various production quality (or lack thereof) during the last decade(+) of production. This is especially noticeable if one is acutely aware of the extremely high level of production QC prior to 2004 when Cohen came on board. It was like 99.99% awesome all the time. I'd probably go so far as to say best production quality in the mass-production firearms industry. Then, to anyone watching like a hawk for the next decade, it took a statistical and tactile nosedive. Sad story, but not a horror story. It's not like all their products were failing and falling apart. They just started failing a little more often. Too often for my tastes.


This level of drop, or fluctuation, in quality does not compare badly to handgun brands I would purposely attempt to steer people away from, like Taurus, but it is there nonetheless.
 

Now you want to talk personal experience? OK - I've only ever had 3 problems with my SIGs. None of them can be attributed to poor quality control or inferior parts.
1) Slide fails to lock back due to my thumb being in the wrong place or my magazine being dirty/ old spring.
2) Rust - I failed to keep my SIG properly lubed, and it developed some rust on the slide and barrel. My fault, not SIG's fault. (The K-kote helped prevent rust.)
3) Unknown round count (probably the original one made in the 90's) recoil spring fails on SG 551 near the piston head. I should've replaced a spring so old in service with an unknown round count, but I was anxious to go shoot the thing and ran it until the bolt got sticky due to the spring binding. It may have even had cracked spring strands when I received it (used) LE issued.


So see, none of those point negatively to SIG and I wouldn't expect less similar issues from any other brand. All those things happen if a person shoots guns often (and doesn't perform excellent maintenance, replacing springs at intervals, etc.) I love all my SIG Sauer products. They were all manufactured before 2005. That may not be why they're so good, but I believe it has something to do with it.


From 2006 to present I've worked in and around gun stores, gunsmith shops, and law enforcement armories/ranges. I've seen lots of problems. I've seen a few caused by poor production quality. I've seen broken parts that broke just because their little MIM selves decided to snap in half. I've seen a few of those which were SIG's. I think all but one was produced after 2005.




It is very difficult to quantify statistics without a large quantity of valid data. I don't have that. I only have my limited personal experience and hearsay from others (with various levels of credibility). I'm not a fan of regurgitating stuff just because I heard it and it sounds relevant. I like to validate things.


Of the MIM parts failures I've personally seen (and even to include those I've ever just heard of) SIGs have the fewest. The older investment cast parts lasted longer though, and their service lives were more predictable. I know this is a fact.


Mostly due to my own personal choices and bias, the only SIG I own produced after 2005 is a P226-FOF for Simunitions. I don't care that it's loaded with MIM parts because, if it ever fails on me, it will be during a training exercise. That's the best time to experience failures, because it results in safe quality training for real-world scenarios and consequences.


Any other time, it could potentially be my life on the line, so I don't wish to deal with the consequences of anything less than the best quality control.


I can buy old SIGs, and they're cheaper, so I buy old SIGs. That's the best choice for me.
 
 
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
Link Posted: 4/22/2016 9:57:46 AM EDT

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Originally Posted By _DR:


When they started making them in the US.



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Worked for a guy who was armorer for the Secret Service, and this is what he said. He said the German guns ran forever, but the US-made guns crapped out pretty quick under high-volume firing. Cutting corners for manufacturing cost as well as using a different slide construction method played a big role in the lowered durability.



 
Link Posted: 4/24/2016 10:49:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2016 10:51:04 PM EDT by KitBuilder]
Keep in mind, though, that the Secret Service US-made SIGs would all be the P229 in .357 SIG, which is going to create extra wear in general as compared to a 9mm. Even the best made one won't outlast a P228, with both eating a steady diet of +P duty rounds. I do not believe switching to a one-piece milled slide lowered their durability.
Link Posted: 4/24/2016 10:56:29 PM EDT
I say right around 2010

This was my experience back then:  https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=5&f=14&t=90395
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