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I miss my late 90's P220. Beautiful, flawless. Should've never sold it!
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Quoted: And now back to the question actually posed by this thread; the SIG MK 25 is unquestionably one of the highest quality pistols that is generally available in the marketplace, and not at all expensive for what you get. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Extreme this, Legion that, blah, blah, blah.... they sure as shit like to charge a lot of money for guns with very little difference between the "fancy" models and a regular one. The Mk25 I think is the biggest marketing scam out there. And now back to the question actually posed by this thread; the SIG MK 25 is unquestionably one of the highest quality pistols that is generally available in the marketplace, and not at all expensive for what you get. |
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What do you get that can't be had on one of their P226 models? I've had mixed luck with Sig. In fact, I wish I never got rid of my P220. Awesome gun. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Extreme this, Legion that, blah, blah, blah.... they sure as shit like to charge a lot of money for guns with very little difference between the "fancy" models and a regular one. The Mk25 I think is the biggest marketing scam out there. And now back to the question actually posed by this thread; the SIG MK 25 is unquestionably one of the highest quality pistols that is generally available in the marketplace, and not at all expensive for what you get. I disagree. The Mk25 is no different than any of their other models in terms of production and QC. Unfortunately, as I witnessed first hand, the latter caused my faith in my (now former) Mk25 to wane. I sold it and bought a G17.4 |
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Dec 2012 P220 carry, perfect.
OCT13 MK25, perfect. My friend did get a 1911 Scorpion where the factory mags were junk though. |
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And now back to the question actually posed by this thread; the SIG MK 25 is unquestionably one of the highest quality pistols that is generally available in the marketplace, and not at all expensive for what you get. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Extreme this, Legion that, blah, blah, blah.... they sure as shit like to charge a lot of money for guns with very little difference between the "fancy" models and a regular one. The Mk25 I think is the biggest marketing scam out there. And now back to the question actually posed by this thread; the SIG MK 25 is unquestionably one of the highest quality pistols that is generally available in the marketplace, and not at all expensive for what you get. I paid less for my MK25 than I did for my P220... It can be had on sale for cheaper or the same price as the standard P226. Where is the scam? |
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All the SIG pistols I've owned have been fine.
Where a lot of the quality control complaints come from are the rifles....especially the US made 551/556 and the First Gen 556R in particular. They've really screwed the pooch on that side of the house. |
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2005 is when Ron J. Cohen left Kimber and started to fuck up Sig. The Gun of the week sales plan doesn't help either. View Quote This. He's credited with saving Sig, but his cost cutting, use of improperly heat treated MIM parts, flavor of the week, is what took Sig down hill. But of late, QC has admittedly gotten better. At least my now P224, and my Legion P226 SA/DA have been flawless. |
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I have have 2 SIG handguns that are only a few years old. The fit / finish and performance of both has been impeccable.
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I've bought 4 Sigs over the last year. A P224, M11-A1, P226 Legion, and 1911 C3.
All have been outstanding. In fact, the M11-A1 is freakishly accurate, the best I've ever owned. |
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The responses by actual SIG owners in this thread belie the underlying premise of this thread that SIG's quality is somehow sub-par and, in fact speaks to the contrary.
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THIS. Sad to say it, but it is true. Recently, they seem to turning things around with the intro of their own innovative suppressor line. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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When they started making them in the US. THIS. Sad to say it, but it is true. Recently, they seem to turning things around with the intro of their own innovative suppressor line. Total horseshit in my opinion and I've been shooting Sigs for over 20 years. Some of the best pistols they ever made came out of Exeter NH in the mid 90's. Some of the parts were made in Exeter and they also sent several over from Germany. Funny thing when people see the slide stamped made in Germany they think the pistol was made in Germany. All the sheet steal slides say made in Germany on them because they never produced these slides here. Doesn't mean the pistol was made in Germany only the slide. |
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In June of last year I purchased a used, recent, P229 Enhanced Elite 9mm. I have no idea how many rounds it had fired prior to my taking possession of it, but it was obviously no safe queen.
I have put 850 rounds of all kinds through it since that time, and it has been an exemplary pistol. It is easy to shoot accurately (as easy as my Walther P99s that make me look like I know what I'm doing), and is buttery smooth in it's operation. I honestly only picked it up because the price was good, I never had any notion I'd ever be a Sig owner, but now, I definitely want another. This is a great pistol. |
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The responses by actual SIG owners in this thread belie the underlying premise of this thread that SIG's quality is somehow sub-par and, in fact speaks to the contrary. View Quote It's not that Sig's quality is sub-par. It's that Sig's quality control is not as good as it use to be. |
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It's not that Sig's quality is sub-par. It's that Sig's quality control is not as good as it use to be. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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The responses by actual SIG owners in this thread belie the underlying premise of this thread that SIG's quality is somehow sub-par and, in fact speaks to the contrary. It's not that Sig's quality is sub-par. It's that Sig's quality control is not as good as it use to be. Please quantify that. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The responses by actual SIG owners in this thread belie the underlying premise of this thread that SIG's quality is somehow sub-par and, in fact speaks to the contrary. It's not that Sig's quality is sub-par. It's that Sig's quality control is not as good as it use to be. Please quantify that. |
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What do you get that can't be had on one of their P226 models? I've had mixed luck with Sig. In fact, I wish I never got rid of my P220. Awesome gun. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Extreme this, Legion that, blah, blah, blah.... they sure as shit like to charge a lot of money for guns with very little difference between the "fancy" models and a regular one. The Mk25 I think is the biggest marketing scam out there. And now back to the question actually posed by this thread; the SIG MK 25 is unquestionably one of the highest quality pistols that is generally available in the marketplace, and not at all expensive for what you get. Short extractor. To my knowledge, the other models have the long extractor. Depends on who you ask if that is a big deal. I guess also that it is built to a standard. I don't think they can just change specs on it. I can't remember what I paid for mine, but it wasn't any more expensive than a regular p226 with night sights on it. It is one of the guns I won't ever get rid of. I have never had a lemon from SIG. That is only out of the 3 guns. p226, p224, and most recently p320 |
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Carried a glock for 5 years no issues, bought a matching set of sig 226/229 extremes and they both rusted in the first month of carrying. The customer service rep basically said yea they do that when you carry them because of your sweet. Went back to carry my g19. Not rust.
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The responses by actual SIG owners in this thread belie the underlying premise of this thread that SIG's quality is somehow sub-par and, in fact speaks to the contrary. It's not that Sig's quality is sub-par. It's that Sig's quality control is not as good as it use to be. Please quantify that. Of those that answered other than "show me the results" only 28% answered "SIG's quality control never went down" with the majority voting for it starting to go down sometime during the 2000's. |
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Quoted: Short extractor. To my knowledge, the other models have the long extractor. Depends on who you ask if that is a big deal. I guess also that it is built to a standard. I don't think they can just change specs on it. View Quote Originally they all had internal extractors. No problems with those. Then the switched to short external extractors around 2001. No problems with them either. 04-05 Cohen decided to subcontract extractors (among other parts) to India and make them MIM instead of investment casting. Failures occurred. So many that they had to redesign into the long MIM extractor that's still produced today. They redesigned several parts and rolled those changes into production. This was when quality initially took a big nosedive. Now they offer the short extractor on the MK25, along with the other redesigned MIM parts. Maybe they make good short extractors now, or had some left over from a Navy contract that actually had to be well-made. Who knows? |
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Of those that answered other than "show me the results" only 28% answered "SIG's quality control never went down" with the majority voting for it starting to go down sometime during the 2000's. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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The responses by actual SIG owners in this thread belie the underlying premise of this thread that SIG's quality is somehow sub-par and, in fact speaks to the contrary. It's not that Sig's quality is sub-par. It's that Sig's quality control is not as good as it use to be. Please quantify that. Of those that answered other than "show me the results" only 28% answered "SIG's quality control never went down" with the majority voting for it starting to go down sometime during the 2000's. You are answering with perception, not actual data. What constitutes a "nosedive"? |
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A dramatic increase in the number of parts failures and guns returned for warranty service would fit most people's definition of a "nosedive." Lots of folks around gun forums, gunsmith shops, and large ranges in those years may have noticed this occurrence, but only SIG is going to have the hard data. Do you really think that's something they would publish?
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You are answering with perception, not actual data. What constitutes a "nosedive"? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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The responses by actual SIG owners in this thread belie the underlying premise of this thread that SIG's quality is somehow sub-par and, in fact speaks to the contrary. It's not that Sig's quality is sub-par. It's that Sig's quality control is not as good as it use to be. Please quantify that. Of those that answered other than "show me the results" only 28% answered "SIG's quality control never went down" with the majority voting for it starting to go down sometime during the 2000's. You are answering with perception, not actual data. What constitutes a "nosedive"? This. And I was referring to those who: a) actually own and shoot SIG pistols and b) took the time to answer with a post in this thread regarding their experiences rather than merely hit the poll. I've got tens of thousands of rounds through my SIGs and they've been superb. |
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You are answering with perception, not actual data. What constitutes a "nosedive"? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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It's not that Sig's quality is sub-par. It's that Sig's quality control is not as good as it use to be. Please quantify that. Of those that answered other than "show me the results" only 28% answered "SIG's quality control never went down" with the majority voting for it starting to go down sometime during the 2000's. You are answering with perception, not actual data. What constitutes a "nosedive"? Quoted:
This. And I was referring to those who: a) actually own and shoot SIG pistols and b) took the time to answer with a post in this thread regarding their experiences rather than merely hit the poll. I've got tens of thousands of rounds through my SIGs and they've been superb. Because that's all we have to go on. Unless you have some actual data showing the QC hasn't gone down. This is simply an unscientific poll on a gun forum. No one is claiming it to be incontrovertible proof. Also, it's not just here. Based on what I've seen and heard the consensus in the gun community in general seems to be that Sig's QC is not as good as it use to be. Again: no one is saying this serves as incontrovertible proof that the QC has gone down, all Sigs suck, your Sigs suck, etc. |
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I know that my SIGs don't suck and, of course, I can't speak for anyone else's, but folks often regurgitate what they've read on the internet back onto the internet. |
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I have an early '00s non railed stainless slide 226 thats a perfect performer, two late 2015 MK25s and two 239s that are also prefect, had a 2011 MK25 that was also perfect, have owned multiple other 226s, 228s, and 229s ranging from the late 90s to present and have never had an issue with any except for dead tritium vial on one night sight.
I think they're fine and they don't stovepipe and dribble brass everywhere like some *ahem, other* pistols do.... |
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Quoted: I know that my SIGs don't suck and, of course, I can't speak for anyone else's, but folks often regurgitate what they've read on the internet back onto the internet. View Quote The only recent Sig that worked was my SP2022 in .40 S&W. And it didn't warm me over. |
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As far as I'm concerned their QC has been suspect for the last 10 years. We had 3 or 4 out of 30 LE 226's take a dump in the first 50 rounds. They started failing to reset.
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I own several SIG Sauer products: P220, P6, P226, P228, P229, and a SG 551 SWAT. They are all fine products, but you cannot convince me there was not various production quality (or lack thereof) during the last decade(+) of production. This is especially noticeable if one is acutely aware of the extremely high level of production QC prior to 2004 when Cohen came on board. It was like 99.99% awesome all the time. I'd probably go so far as to say best production quality in the mass-production firearms industry. Then, to anyone watching like a hawk for the next decade, it took a statistical and tactile nosedive. Sad story, but not a horror story. It's not like all their products were failing and falling apart. They just started failing a little more often. Too often for my tastes.
This level of drop, or fluctuation, in quality does not compare badly to handgun brands I would purposely attempt to steer people away from, like Taurus, but it is there nonetheless. 1) Slide fails to lock back due to my thumb being in the wrong place or my magazine being dirty/ old spring. 2) Rust - I failed to keep my SIG properly lubed, and it developed some rust on the slide and barrel. My fault, not SIG's fault. (The K-kote helped prevent rust.) 3) Unknown round count (probably the original one made in the 90's) recoil spring fails on SG 551 near the piston head. I should've replaced a spring so old in service with an unknown round count, but I was anxious to go shoot the thing and ran it until the bolt got sticky due to the spring binding. It may have even had cracked spring strands when I received it (used) LE issued. So see, none of those point negatively to SIG and I wouldn't expect less similar issues from any other brand. All those things happen if a person shoots guns often (and doesn't perform excellent maintenance, replacing springs at intervals, etc.) I love all my SIG Sauer products. They were all manufactured before 2005. That may not be why they're so good, but I believe it has something to do with it. From 2006 to present I've worked in and around gun stores, gunsmith shops, and law enforcement armories/ranges. I've seen lots of problems. I've seen a few caused by poor production quality. I've seen broken parts that broke just because their little MIM selves decided to snap in half. I've seen a few of those which were SIG's. I think all but one was produced after 2005. It is very difficult to quantify statistics without a large quantity of valid data. I don't have that. I only have my limited personal experience and hearsay from others (with various levels of credibility). I'm not a fan of regurgitating stuff just because I heard it and it sounds relevant. I like to validate things. Of the MIM parts failures I've personally seen (and even to include those I've ever just heard of) SIGs have the fewest. The older investment cast parts lasted longer though, and their service lives were more predictable. I know this is a fact. Mostly due to my own personal choices and bias, the only SIG I own produced after 2005 is a P226-FOF for Simunitions. I don't care that it's loaded with MIM parts because, if it ever fails on me, it will be during a training exercise. That's the best time to experience failures, because it results in safe quality training for real-world scenarios and consequences. Any other time, it could potentially be my life on the line, so I don't wish to deal with the consequences of anything less than the best quality control. I can buy old SIGs, and they're cheaper, so I buy old SIGs. That's the best choice for me. |
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Quoted: When they started making them in the US. View Quote |
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Keep in mind, though, that the Secret Service US-made SIGs would all be the P229 in .357 SIG, which is going to create extra wear in general as compared to a 9mm. Even the best made one won't outlast a P228, with both eating a steady diet of +P duty rounds. I do not believe switching to a one-piece milled slide lowered their durability.
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I say right around 2010
This was my experience back then: https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=5&f=14&t=90395 |
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