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Posted: 11/27/2009 5:50:14 AM EDT
[#1]
beautiful
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Posted: 11/27/2009 9:25:34 PM EDT
[#2]
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i have been thinking about it, and what would be the problem with just sleeving a 45 cal barrel with a .30 and ream the chamber? would require much less machining. i dont have the required equipment or knowledge to to this, but i might be able to find someone that can help. do you have any concern about the possibility of increased pressure cause by increasing the bullet seat depth? That's how the M9 barrel was made - sleeved in the 9mm barrel and held by tension, works splendid. Should be even easier with an old 45 barrel.... alrighty then. its settled. i'm doin it. |
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Posted: 11/29/2009 4:52:26 PM EDT
[#3]
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i have been thinking about it, and what would be the problem with just sleeving a 45 cal barrel with a .30 and ream the chamber? would require much less machining. i dont have the required equipment or knowledge to to this, but i might be able to find someone that can help. do you have any concern about the possibility of increased pressure cause by increasing the bullet seat depth? That's how the M9 barrel was made - sleeved in the 9mm barrel and held by tension, works splendid. Should be even easier with an old 45 barrel.... alrighty then. its settled. i'm doin it. I considered this: I was going to bore a 1911 .45 cal barrel to 0.5" all the way through. I would then shorten the barrel's breach end about 0.250". I would then turn an insert from a .30 cal blank which was slip fit for the 0.5" hole and had a head the full diameter of the breach. This insert I would epoxy in place. I would then I would then be able to cut a new hood and feed ramp into this rear section. This would also produce a positive stop shoulder to prevent the liner from being shot out of the barrel body. However I did not have some of the tooling I considered necessary to accomplish this approach. Also I wanted to see if the guerrilla method I devised to cut the upper lug would work. |
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Posted: 11/29/2009 5:31:01 PM EDT
[#4]
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i have been thinking about it, and what would be the problem with just sleeving a 45 cal barrel with a .30 and ream the chamber? would require much less machining. i dont have the required equipment or knowledge to to this, but i might be able to find someone that can help. do you have any concern about the possibility of increased pressure cause by increasing the bullet seat depth? That's how the M9 barrel was made - sleeved in the 9mm barrel and held by tension, works splendid. Should be even easier with an old 45 barrel.... alrighty then. its settled. i'm doin it. I considered this: I was going to bore a 1911 .45 cal barrel to 0.5" all the way through. I would then shorten the barrel's breach end about 0.250". I would then turn an insert from a .30 cal blank which was slip fit for the 0.5" hole and had a head the full diameter of the breach. This insert I would epoxy in place. I would then I would then be able to cut a new hood and feed ramp into this rear section. This would also produce a positive stop shoulder to prevent the liner from being shot out of the barrel body. However I did not have some of the tooling I considered necessary to accomplish this approach. Also I wanted to see if the guerrilla method I devised to cut the upper lug would work. MSpaint illustration of the barrel conversion method I used in my barrel and the other method I described above: 
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Posted: 11/29/2009 5:32:50 PM EDT
[#5]
At first, I was appalled. Now I think it's completely kick-ass, two thumbs up man!
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Posted: 11/29/2009 6:40:15 PM EDT
[#6]
Pervert!
Not that there's anything wrong with that. |
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Posted: 11/29/2009 6:50:27 PM EDT
[#7]
If springfield armory made a Mil Spec in 7.62 Tok, I'd be all over that bad boy.
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Posted: 11/29/2009 7:02:12 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
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i have been thinking about it, and what would be the problem with just sleeving a 45 cal barrel with a .30 and ream the chamber? would require much less machining. i dont have the required equipment or knowledge to to this, but i might be able to find someone that can help. do you have any concern about the possibility of increased pressure cause by increasing the bullet seat depth? That's how the M9 barrel was made - sleeved in the 9mm barrel and held by tension, works splendid. Should be even easier with an old 45 barrel.... alrighty then. its settled. i'm doin it. I considered this: I was going to bore a 1911 .45 cal barrel to 0.5" all the way through. I would then shorten the barrel's breach end about 0.250". I would then turn an insert from a .30 cal blank which was slip fit for the 0.5" hole and had a head the full diameter of the breach. This insert I would epoxy in place. I would then I would then be able to cut a new hood and feed ramp into this rear section. This would also produce a positive stop shoulder to prevent the liner from being shot out of the barrel body. However I did not have some of the tooling I considered necessary to accomplish this approach. Also I wanted to see if the guerrilla method I devised to cut the upper lug would work. MSpaint illustration of the barrel conversion method I used in my barrel and the other method I described above: http://i469.photobucket.com/albums/rr51/kristofer_g/gun%20stuff/Tokarev%201911/1911_barrels_conversions.jpg A hair different - imagine a shoulder on the 30 cal barrel that "headspaces" against an edge inside the original chamber - and then tensioning nut on the muzzle to hold it all in place. Hypothetically, you could make the sleeve headspace against the original chamber... thus allowing the original 45 barrel to be reused.... I would not do this with 30 cal, but with the 22 Reed (22 cal on the 7.62 x 25 case), it should work... With your permission (it is your post) - a picture of the M9 (well, Taurus, but pretty much an M9) - if you want, I will remove the picture, no questions asked 
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Posted: 11/30/2009 7:45:43 AM EDT
[#9]
OOOH.. those are some fun looking bullets..
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Posted: 11/30/2009 8:47:50 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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i have been thinking about it, and what would be the problem with just sleeving a 45 cal barrel with a .30 and ream the chamber? would require much less machining. i dont have the required equipment or knowledge to to this, but i might be able to find someone that can help. do you have any concern about the possibility of increased pressure cause by increasing the bullet seat depth? That's how the M9 barrel was made - sleeved in the 9mm barrel and held by tension, works splendid. Should be even easier with an old 45 barrel.... alrighty then. its settled. i'm doin it. I considered this: I was going to bore a 1911 .45 cal barrel to 0.5" all the way through. I would then shorten the barrel's breach end about 0.250". I would then turn an insert from a .30 cal blank which was slip fit for the 0.5" hole and had a head the full diameter of the breach. This insert I would epoxy in place. I would then I would then be able to cut a new hood and feed ramp into this rear section. This would also produce a positive stop shoulder to prevent the liner from being shot out of the barrel body. However I did not have some of the tooling I considered necessary to accomplish this approach. Also I wanted to see if the guerrilla method I devised to cut the upper lug would work. MSpaint illustration of the barrel conversion method I used in my barrel and the other method I described above: http://i469.photobucket.com/albums/rr51/kristofer_g/gun%20stuff/Tokarev%201911/1911_barrels_conversions.jpg A hair different - imagine a shoulder on the 30 cal barrel that "headspaces" against an edge inside the original chamber - and then tensioning nut on the muzzle to hold it all in place. Hypothetically, you could make the sleeve headspace against the original chamber... thus allowing the original 45 barrel to be reused.... I would not do this with 30 cal, but with the 22 Reed (22 cal on the 7.62 x 25 case), it should work... With your permission (it is your post) - a picture of the M9 (well, Taurus, but pretty much an M9) - if you want, I will remove the picture, no questions asked http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v617/martytw/IMG_0289.jpg Interesting, basically a sub gauge barrel liner for a O/U or SxS shoutgun. One part I am not clear on, in your picture, is the chamber I am looking into the original chamber of the 9mm barrel or part of the liner? The reason I ask, is I am a big time G**** shooter, and have been trying to come up with a method to do a G19/7.62x25mm barrel. Which I know I will have to do short reloads for, but I still want one none the less. If the mods do not like the amount non-1911 thread drift, I have no issue with it being moved to the Handgun Discussions forums, which is actually where I had intended to post this originally. |
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Posted: 12/1/2009 8:10:09 PM EDT
[#11]
I will IM you the details on the "insert"
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Posted: 12/2/2009 7:07:32 AM EDT
[#12]
hey marty, could you shoot me a pm with the info as well am very interested in doin somethin like this.
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Posted: 12/2/2009 3:39:41 PM EDT
[#13]
Cool slide, and I love the tokarev round.
It's a very flat/smooth shooting round. 
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Posted: 12/29/2009 12:31:44 PM EDT
[#14]
I took an old Mec-Gar .38 Super magazine this afternoon, and squeezed it in a small vise. This enabled me to go from 3 to 4 Tok cartridges. So out came the hammer. With some judicious banging, I am up to loading 7 Tok cartridges. It will still seat in both my Colt .38 Super, and my Caspian framed 9x23mm Winchester. It is just a little tight in the Caspian, however.
I dremeled just a little bit off of the follower on both sides at the front. It will still hold 9 .38 Sups, so it is not binding on the follower, but on the nose of the Tok bullet. After my nap, I will try and bang on it some more. It would be nice to make it seat all 9 Tok cartridges, and fit in a Gov't model frame without any frame mods. This may not happen, but it is what I am striving for.. |
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Posted: 12/29/2009 1:13:18 PM EDT
[#15]
 Nice!!!!!!
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Posted: 1/3/2010 2:13:12 PM EDT
[#16]
I have beaten and banged on that mag for several days now, (not continously). I now have a Mec-Gar mag that will accept 8 Tok rounds, (Norinco). The first 7 load normally, and the 8th one is a bear to get in. I actually got a full 9 in once, but then everything locked up, and I know that there was no way it would strip the 9th round off of the top. 8 is good to go, I think, and from 7 on down it is just like it was loaded with .38 Supers.
It will still fit in an unmodified frame. It will even drop free from one. It even locks the slide back, manually. Shame I don't have a 7.62 x 25 Tokarev M1911 barrel. 
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Posted: 1/7/2010 2:56:11 PM EDT
[#17]
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Posted: 1/7/2010 3:20:55 PM EDT
[#18]
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Nicely done.  What he said.... |
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Posted: 1/9/2010 1:31:59 PM EDT
[#19]
I like this build!
I stumbled across this on accident looking for info on 7.62x25 conversions, after being re-inspired by an article in the new Shotgun News on a VC 1911. I've been researching info on doing a 1911 7.62x25 conversion for years, since first reading about a very crude Viet Cong conversion captured by a GI during the war. Your info brings me one step closer to building a replica of those pistols someday. I own a Polish TT-33 and love this high velocity cartridge. The trigger pull sucks but surprisingly it shoots very well in spite of that. |
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Posted: 1/9/2010 1:50:05 PM EDT
[#20]
Interesting
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Posted: 1/24/2010 12:58:37 PM EDT
[#21]
Now thats a 1911 I'd love to have!
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Posted: 1/25/2010 9:34:07 AM EDT
[#22]
Someone needs to be a double stack, 7.62x25 modern full size handgun. I would easily pay $1500 for something like this, if it was of good quality. The round, when loaded with JHPs is deadly, let alone say 20 rounds in a mag.
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Posted: 1/25/2010 3:49:54 PM EDT
[#23]
Very cool sir. If I might ask, what magazines are you using? I actually thought about doing a similar project once, but was never sure if 45 ACP mags would accomodate the Tok's length.
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Posted: 1/25/2010 3:52:10 PM EDT
[#24]
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Okay, NO, it WAS about what you want until you did this. 
Not sure what ^^he was saying but, I'd buy one! ETA, Minus the FH though. Oh, I dunno. 7.62 Tok has a well earned reputation for ejecting a big fireball; if a pistol round ever needed an FH, the Tok is it 
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Posted: 1/27/2010 7:40:43 AM EDT
[#25]
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Oh, I dunno. 7.62 Tok has a well earned reputation for ejecting a big fireball; if a pistol round ever needed an FH, the Tok is it It made do difference in perceived muzzle flash. It did however have a stabilizing effect on the pistol when it was installed. Kind of like some one grabbed the muzzle and held it steady every shot. It is no longer installed because it blocked the recoil plug, making reassembling after cleaning difficult. I shoot out in the desert so unless a huge cloud covers the sky or your are watching some one shot a M44, you almost never seem a muzzle flash. |
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Posted: 2/16/2010 4:46:51 AM EDT
[#26]
bump, and did you ever get a new flash hider/brake for the gun? didnt like the bird cage
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Posted: 3/25/2010 6:18:43 PM EDT
[#27]
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bump, and did you ever get a new flash hider/brake for the gun? didnt like the bird cage Actually, I made a second barrel without muzzle threads. I had an issue with my first barrel. The stainless Remington 700 take off barrel I used originally was, apparently, very soft. Over the course of shooting 400 rounds the locking lugs set back 0.030". I wanted to try another method of making a barrel and did a full length liner in an old GI .45 barrel. The piece of PacNor barrel I had to make a liner was exactly 5" long, so no threads on this one. |
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Posted: 3/25/2010 6:35:06 PM EDT
[#28]
What would one have to do to convert a run-of-the-mill inexpensive 1911 to 7.62 Tok? Is there any change to the magwell? Is the new barrel and mags all I would need? I'm seriously thinking of buying a cheap 1911 and doing this over the summer.
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Posted: 3/25/2010 9:14:04 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
What would one have to do to convert a run-of-the-mill inexpensive 1911 to 7.62 Tok? Is there any change to the magwell? Is the new barrel and mags all I would need? I'm seriously thinking of buying a cheap 1911 and doing this over the summer. Start with a 1911 in either 38 Super or 9mm Luger and the only major component change is the Tokarev barrel. |
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Posted: 3/26/2010 1:27:41 AM EDT
[#30]
That slide milling is incredible, totally changes the look of the 1911.
very modern looking |
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Posted: 3/26/2010 9:45:33 AM EDT
[#31]
Tokarev Project v2.0, 1911s look their best with the barrel crowned flush with the barrel bushing.
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Posted: 3/26/2010 9:48:37 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Quoted: What would one have to do to convert a run-of-the-mill inexpensive 1911 to 7.62 Tok? Is there any change to the magwell? Is the new barrel and mags all I would need? I'm seriously thinking of buying a cheap 1911 and doing this over the summer. Start with a 1911 in either 38 Super or 9mm Luger and the only major component change is the Tokarev barrel. I think I've discovered my first 1911 project! IM Sent! |
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Posted: 3/26/2010 10:48:57 AM EDT
[#33]
What to tell my machinist about a barrel insert? Did the .38 ACP mags work OK?
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Posted: 3/26/2010 7:00:43 PM EDT
[#34]
For some reason I want to do this to. Any one got a lead on blank barrels after forging and outside machining but before gun drilling and fluting? Or got a lead on a gunsmith/company that will make some custom barrels? What twist rate has everyone been using on the Tok?
Just the idea of being able to shoot a 1911 at the range and being able to spot MY brass makes me smile
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Posted: 3/29/2010 8:34:49 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
For some reason I want to do this to. Any one got a lead on blank barrels after forging and outside machining but before gun drilling and fluting? Or got a lead on a gunsmith/company that will make some custom barrels? What twist rate has everyone been using on the Tok? Just the idea of being able to shoot a 1911 at the range and being able to spot MY brass makes me smile I do not. I thought about getting a 30 cal blank and having a shop CNC 1911 barrels. However, you will need a 1&11/16" diameter blank minimum to make 1911 barrels. Which is why I have gone with lining existing 1911 barrels. 
I put about 150rds through the new barrel this weekend. Worked great, zero malfunctions, and 100% ignition of chambered rounds. I also finished another 7.62x25mm project that I started when I first started my 1911 project, and that is a gas operated M16 upper. 
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Posted: 3/29/2010 8:36:22 AM EDT
[#36]
The 7.62x25mm 1911 in action:
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Posted: 3/30/2010 9:27:52 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What would one have to do to convert a run-of-the-mill inexpensive 1911 to 7.62 Tok? Is there any change to the magwell? Is the new barrel and mags all I would need? I'm seriously thinking of buying a cheap 1911 and doing this over the summer. Start with a 1911 in either 38 Super or 9mm Luger and the only major component change is the Tokarev barrel. Forgive me if this is wrong, as it's late and im dead. So i would need to pick up a 1911 in .38 super or 9mm. Then get a .45 barrel and have the smith do everything you explained? Also, WTH are you doing to those pictures? They look sweet as hell. |
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Posted: 3/30/2010 10:00:31 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What would one have to do to convert a run-of-the-mill inexpensive 1911 to 7.62 Tok? Is there any change to the magwell? Is the new barrel and mags all I would need? I'm seriously thinking of buying a cheap 1911 and doing this over the summer. Start with a 1911 in either 38 Super or 9mm Luger and the only major component change is the Tokarev barrel. Forgive me if this is wrong, as it's late and im dead. So i would need to pick up a 1911 in .38 super or 9mm. Then get a .45 barrel and have the smith do everything you explained? Also, WTH are you doing to those pictures? They look sweet as hell. The pics look HDR but it might be something simpler. As far as the 1911-A7.62, OP'll have to define that. |
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Posted: 3/30/2010 11:47:51 PM EDT
[#39]
sent you an Email.............I have a double stack 9mm STI 1911...........hhhmmmmmm..................but an excuse to get another 1911........
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Posted: 3/31/2010 7:43:19 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
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What would one have to do to convert a run-of-the-mill inexpensive 1911 to 7.62 Tok? Is there any change to the magwell? Is the new barrel and mags all I would need? I'm seriously thinking of buying a cheap 1911 and doing this over the summer. Start with a 1911 in either 38 Super or 9mm Luger and the only major component change is the Tokarev barrel. Forgive me if this is wrong, as it's late and im dead. So i would need to pick up a 1911 in .38 super or 9mm. Then get a .45 barrel and have the smith do everything you explained? Also, WTH are you doing to those pictures? They look sweet as hell. Correct, except for the .45 barrel part. You can use the 38/9mm tube that comes with the gun as long as it is a full diameter barrel, meaning it looks like a 45 barrel on the out side. Most guns made today are this way, but older Colts and Springers often, if not always, had reduced diameter sections on their barrels. As Tony-Ri said, the pictures are "High Dynamic Range" composite photographs. They were taken and processed by my coworker Jake, the store's product photographer, this is his website here. He is also responsible for my avatar and basically all the photo's in this tread. Here are more of the AR15: 
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Posted: 3/31/2010 5:06:57 PM EDT
[#41]
Looks like I need a Stainless steel Hi-cap 1911a1 in 38super...
Very Nice work. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 3:37:50 AM EDT
[#42]
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Nicely done! I'd say drop the A3 as well, get the YHM Wraith flash supressor so you can use their sound 9mm supressor  Was about to say that. This is awesome. I wouldn't do that (anymore). I used my Cobra M2 9mm for Tok ammo and YHM sad this is very unwise because of the pressures being so much greater in the Tok vs 9mm |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 5:11:15 AM EDT
[#43]
Any good sources for Tok Chamber Reamers? I'd rather buy one then rent one but either is fine.
Just ordered a 1911 in .38 super. Talked with my Gunsmith today and he said it wouldn't be a problem except loading more then 1 round into the mag. I took out a 38S mag and loaded 5 rds right there. Now he wants to build one for himself as well. Glad i found this thread.
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Posted: 4/15/2010 7:52:45 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Any good sources for Tok Chamber Reamers? I'd rather buy one then rent one but either is fine. Just ordered a 1911 in .38 super. Talked with my Gunsmith today and he said it wouldn't be a problem except loading more then 1 round into the mag. I took out a 38S mag and loaded 5 rds right there. Now he wants to build one for himself as well. Glad i found this thread. I ordered my reamer and head space gauges from Pacific Tool & Gauge. I would have got a cheap Clymer or Manson solid pilot reamer for this project if I could have found one. PTG reamers are the best there are, but a bit over kill for a pistol barrel. However since I am doing AR15 barrel as well, I guess it justifies the floating pilot reamer. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 8:32:01 AM EDT
[#45]
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Nicely done! I'd say drop the A3 as well, get the YHM Wraith flash supressor so you can use their sound 9mm supressor Was about to say that. This is awesome. I wouldn't do that (anymore). I used my Cobra M2 9mm for Tok ammo and YHM sad this is very unwise because of the pressures being so much greater in the Tok vs 9mm The Tokarev cartridge's operating pressures have been greatly exaggerated. The CIP maximum average pressure for the 7.62x25mm is 34,809psi, which is basically equivalent to CIP's MAP of 34,084psi for the 9x19mm. I have read pages and pages of chronograph data for surplus as well as new commercial Tok data, and I have yet to see an indication of the dreaded Czech SMG load. Because of its relatively light weight projectile and large case capacity, the 7.62x25mm's velocity benefits greatly going from a 5" pistol barrel to a 10" SMG barrel. A lot of the published data, particularly military standards, are based on Tokarev's SMG performance and not that of pistols. The 7.62x25mm will have slightly greater pressure at the muzzle compared to the same barrel length in 9x19mm, but it will have an extra 0.023" of blow by on each side. I would be more worried about the longer term effects of corrosive primer residue in a suppressor, but then YHM Cobra M2 is user serviceable can. All that said, I guess you are heeding to the manufacturers recommendations if you wish to maintain warranty coverage. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 12:10:01 PM EDT
[#46]
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Nicely done! I'd say drop the A3 as well, get the YHM Wraith flash supressor so you can use their sound 9mm supressor Was about to say that. This is awesome. I wouldn't do that (anymore). I used my Cobra M2 9mm for Tok ammo and YHM sad this is very unwise because of the pressures being so much greater in the Tok vs 9mm The Tokarev cartridge's operating pressures have been greatly exaggerated. The CIP maximum average pressure for the 7.62x25mm is 34,809psi, which is basically equivalent to CIP's MAP of 34,084psi for the 9x19mm. I have read pages and pages of chronograph data for surplus as well as new commercial Tok data, and I have yet to see an indication of the dreaded Czech SMG load. Because of its relatively light weight projectile and large case capacity, the 7.62x25mm's velocity benefits greatly going from a 5" pistol barrel to a 10" SMG barrel. A lot of the published data, particularly military standards, are based on Tokarev's SMG performance and not that of pistols. The 7.62x25mm will have slightly greater pressure at the muzzle compared to the same barrel length in 9x19mm, but it will have an extra 0.023" of blow by on each side. I would be more worried about the longer term effects of corrosive primer residue in a suppressor, but then YHM Cobra M2 is user serviceable can. All that said, I guess you are heeding to the manufacturers recommendations if you wish to maintain warranty coverage. Not sure if this was the reason but i already blew my cobra off my Tok upper once. They fixed it right away and i asked them if it could handle it and they said use the Phantom 7.62. I don't like that i can't take it apart and it's a lot heavier then the cobra, but i can use different cleaners that i couldn't in the AL can. Sorry for the thread Hi-Jack. i really appreciate the info. Reamer ordered this morning along with a new 1911
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Posted: 4/15/2010 1:11:55 PM EDT
[#47]
Awesome job man! really a great thing I could not even start to do. No disrespect but I just thought it funny in your original post you put "My gun is not a tradition 1911, as can be seen in the pictures, as I have more modern tastes."
You used a platform invented in the early 1900s and converted it to use a round invented in the 30's but consider it a modern pistol. 
Like I said, no disrespect, just funny when I first read it. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 1:47:22 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Awesome job man! really a great thing I could not even start to do. No disrespect but I just thought it funny in your original post you put "My gun is not a tradition 1911, as can be seen in the pictures, as I have more modern tastes." You used a platform invented in the early 1900s and converted it to use a round invented in the 30's but consider it a modern pistol.
Like I said, no disrespect, just funny when I first read it. None taken, although I was not referring not to technology but styling. Technology wise: a 1911 is a 1911 is a 1911. Don't get me started on cartridges. The point being I could have lightened the slide internally and preserved the classic appearance of the 1911A1. I prefer the racy looks of Open Division pistols; even without comps, red dots, and wide body frames. |
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Posted: 4/15/2010 2:53:13 PM EDT
[#49]
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Quoted:
Awesome job man! really a great thing I could not even start to do. No disrespect but I just thought it funny in your original post you put "My gun is not a tradition 1911, as can be seen in the pictures, as I have more modern tastes." You used a platform invented in the early 1900s and converted it to use a round invented in the 30's but consider it a modern pistol.
Like I said, no disrespect, just funny when I first read it. None taken, although I was not referring not to technology but styling. Technology wise: a 1911 is a 1911 is a 1911. Don't get me started on cartridges. The point being I could have lightened the slide internally and preserved the classic appearance of the 1911A1. I prefer the racy looks of Open Division pistols; even without comps, red dots, and wide body frames. Cool thing! I love the 1911 and I still am stacked with 7.62x25 with currently no pistol to shoot it in and would love something like this but I don't have the foo to do it, so hats off to you! |
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Posted: 4/16/2010 8:06:42 AM EDT
[#50]
I like this!
Doesn't the 7.62x25 shoot through schools though? |
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