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Here's another prosecutor's wet dream waiting to happen. |
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If IRC, in the eyes of the law, SHOWING someone a gun is a lot different than POINTING it at them. A witness to that act/non-act would be helpful.
a-bare |
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I could not agree more with that statement. I've seen it many, many times over the years. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you have to use it or that its even the best way to resolve the situation. |
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Been there done that I stayed in my car window up P229 40 cal IWB my car ran out of gass guy gets out spits cuss etc! like I want to block the light |
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With your "retired" tag line and comments, I'm assuming you're retired off the the job, if so, what would you have done diffrently in a situation like this? Cops have a very tough time judging responses to situations like this objectively because they would instantly tin up and 90% of the time the guy, no matter how big he is, will back off. Civilians don't have that option, and anyone who's been in a street fight will tell you that it's a shitty situation at best. Next, to all the others who felt that he wasn't justified. Why have we been brainwashed in this society into thinking that if someone comes at you with violent intent that you are somehow obligated to keep the encounter "sportsman" like and protect the aggressor? Now everyone has to be an Aikido master so they can protect their attacker while defending themselves? |
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Yes I'm retired from the job a year now. That said I would have done the same when I was on the job as I would now. That would be stay in the car and call 911. Sure I would make sure I had access to my gun quickly BUT I would not draw my gun unless the individual escalated the situation by introducing some type of weapon. Until then if I drew my weapon I would be wrong and could be charged(NY) even if I got out of the car and confronted him and we got into a fight a liberal DA might say that I would have avoided using force by staying in the car. Now I def agree that its because of a very "be a good victim" mentality in this country that make people think its wrong to defend yourself. However deadly force is not called for in this case. The other motorist in this case could have turned around and called the police and the OP would be posting from a cell right now. As far as tinning a guy in this type of situation your right most cops would but mainly because they are required to do so if possible when they think a crime is about to happen. One of the reasons I'm a big proponent of OC spray is that in case similar to this you can spray the guy, get to safety and call 911. Thats why I carry an OC canister in my car. take care |
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... Your reactions were justified, I enjoyed your writing style too
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I think in TN that could be borderline "menacing."
I think you did the right thing. Without witnesses you could have been in trouble if it had gone to court etc. |
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I think some of you folks saying you wouldn't draw your guns might not be thinking this through well enough. What would you do if once he got fairly close he drew his weapon and attempted to shoot you in the face? It seems like many of you are assuming that he is unarmed only because he hasn't presented his weapon yet.
Do you think you could beat his time while you're sitting in your car, presumably with your seatbelt on? I probably would've drawn my Glock and kept it low, out of his line of sight, and hosed him with my Fox 5.3 using my left hand. Well, in the car I drive most of the time I wouldn't have been able to squirt him with the OC, as the window won't roll down (darned power windows). Wouldn't calling 911 during such a confrontation decrease your situational awareness to the extent that the aggressor could approach you and kill you with ease, even an impact weapon? I don't know about you guys, but I can't work my cellular phone without looking at the thing, and I definitely wouldn't want to take my eyes off of the large, enraged man that has already demonstrated that he is willing to use a 2000 lb weapon when he is about 1-2 seconds away from my open car window. I guess if teh OP's window had been rolled up it might have been slightly less risky to dial 911. It's a damned shame that this isn't a free country and that you can be locked up for using force to defend yourself and your property. |
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A few points:
I couldn't go over the median because there is a drainage ditch in the middle. I was in a Honda Civic. I couldn't go right because there were cars- I guess I could have floored it and gone for it to the right, gotten in an accident and been stuck there. This happened on Kelly Street between Homestead Rd. and Lockwood road off of the 610 north loop. I invite anyone from Houston to enlighten the others about the neighborhood. Hint: It's the "Fifth Ward." I was on this street because I left my terminal on Homestead Rd. The Homestead on-ramp to westbound Loop 610 north is closed due to construction. All traffic from Homestead and Kirkpatrick and all the related streets must detour down Kelley to Lockwood to get on the Loop. I hadn't mentioned it before, but the guy that got out of the car was black, approx 6'2", 350 lbs. He was wearing what was probably a 5X white t-shirt and shin-length baggy black denim shorts. Lots of room to hide stuff. And to quote myself: a) I was probably firmly in a gray area drawing the gun, but I figure some big guy coming to a stop on a busy street and starting towards my car didn't want to chat. He didn't have a weapon in hand, but his clothes were baggy enough that I couldn't be sure. b) I was probably a bit of a smartass but not an asshole c) I couldn't go right or back up, and once he started back he was close enough to get to me even if I had floored it and tried to go around on the right. d) Sitting in the driver's seat of a Civic doesn't allow much room to move and/or defend yourself. e) This is the first time I've ever drawn my gun since the law passed and I began carrying. I didn't put myself in this position by any negligence or hubris on my part. I had no out- my fault? I'm not sure how I could have gotten around it without risking an accident, running him over, or stuffing the Civic in a ditch. I didn't aim at him. I raised the gun enough for him to see it. I would have shot the inner door handle at its highest point of aim. Perhaps I should have frantically rolled my manual window up while scrambling to dial 911 on the phone that was in the side pocket of my backpack in the passenger seat, all the while looking for a break in traffic to the right. Just like they say. Be a good victim, don't resist. Call the police. -p. |
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Your only mistake was letting him get that close to you before letting him know you meant business...... You are NOT in grey territory, 1) He was deranged enough to stop traffic to confrong you. 2) His language revealed his intent. He was intending on pounding you in the street -- obvious road rage. Arm Chair QBing IMHO: If you had time you should have exited your car, by being stuck in a vehicle you limit your tactical options. And you should have drawn down on him before he got that close, if he had a knife he could have reached you in less time than it takes to click off the safety. At least he wasn't deranged enough to take on a firearm. Good on ya, Just my humble opinion. Oh -- Go ahead and start flaming me |
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Pretty much the same thing happened to my wife with a male driver. When he walked up to the car she had her gun out. He turned and walked back to his car.
She did exactly the same thing you did. She did not call the police immediately. Huge mistake. If Mr asshole had called the cops on her it would probably not have gone totally bad but it would still not be a good situation. I question why you didn't call 911 as soon as he started this crap? I know this happened really quick but why no popo call? Especially afterwards. Only thing I see that was a mistake. So I always wonder what the etiquette is on these deals. Do you roll the window down first or just shoot through the door? |
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Yes, OC definately adds another tool to your toolbox, and can be used to defuse a situation with less than lethal force. I would second having it at all times. I will however continue my written crusade against "being a good victim" by saying what if the guy starts damaging your vehicle while you're dialing 911? Why should you be obligated to allow him to damage your vehicle, which you know will cost YOU money to have repaired(even if you get him to court, it's time, aggrevation, etc.) so that he doesn't feel threatened by having a gun pointed at him? I was always taught by my father not to f#&* with other people because you never know what surprise might be inside. People shouldn't be allowed to threaten others and expect that they'll be treated only with the minimum amount of force. This guy crossed the line, and therefore was at fault. If the perp in this case had continued toward the OP after being warned about the FA, and got himself shot, who's fault is that? What if he kicked the shit out of the OP and then took his gun and shot him? |
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First off
I DONT WAVE BACK TO BG I DONT LOOK BACK TO SEE WHAT HE IS DOING I IGNORE BG Or hold my hand like am sorry I go my way and TRY to avoid at all times I wont get out of car and my window will be up if I am trapped he has to open my Locked car door and if he brakes in then I will use force |
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SINCE PACKING OVER 20 YEARS I FOUND MY PERMIT IS A PERMIT TO TAKE SHIT ALOT OF SHIT I CANT COUNT THE TIMES I JUST HAD TO SWALLOW MY PRIDE |
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uh, I'm in Houston and that's a shitty, shitty place. Listen to SC and remember what he said for times like this in the future. I've been in your spot before, I waited until the guy got to my window before he saw my Glock. Heep safe man, I live here too and its a jungle. |
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This is something that I've thought about also. I now have a stereo (Sony) with bluetooth. 911 is the first speed-dial on my phone so all I have to do is press and hold the volume control for 1 second and it's dialing (even if the phone's in my bag or the trunk). Then I can just talk to the despatcher from my seat. Useful in an accident too (trapped in the seat, can't reach my phone). |
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This is something that I've thought about also. I now have a stereo (Sony) with bluetooth. 911 is the first speed-dial on my phone so all I have to do is press and hold the volume control for 1 second and it's dialing (even if the phone's in my bag or the trunk). Then I can just talk to the despatcher from my seat. |
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Glad you are alright man. Im sure its bad in Houston now cause Katrina Ville showed up. Same in Las Vegas. Crime went up by alot. I was at a 76 gas station filling up a block from the Palms hotel and it was 11pm. Ran out of gas...normally I dont fill up at night in Vegas. Too many gas station 7-11 type robberies at night. Anyways this night some black guy walks up to me from the dark. The gas station stall was lit up very brightly, I didnt see him till he was about 6 ft from me. I had my drivers door open and my Glock 31 clipped to the side storage bin panel (lack of a better word). The black guy yells at me and says "Hey Motherfuggah give me some money" I looked up made eye contact with him as he advanced I pulled out my Glock and pointed it at him. With the door between us I said I have nothing but lead for you. He ran off..."Oh just playin brotha just playin" I dialed 911 and told them and dispatcher are you alright? yes...then said is he shot? no...he ran off....ok....dont worry about it...no reported 911 calls about a situation at the gas station you are at. Cool I said....Goodnight. Have a safe night dispatcher said. It was my "Welcome to Las Vegas" moment. First time pulling a gun on someone. This is just 1 of the many times it has happened again usually with shady looking people.
Just be glad you went home safely. |
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TRUE but the bad guy will say anyway you point it at him |
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+1 I use to carry spray (Tear Gas type not Pepper) warning it wont work on DOGs I sprayed one and it didnt bother it a bit |
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Seems like alot of ASSUME going on ! |
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Hindsight is 20/20. Take this as a learning experience and move on. You are alive today, and so is the moron who tried to start something with you. I wouldn't worry about it now. My hunch is that if this guy has such a bad temper, your not the first peson he has dealt with, and the law would look more favorably on you since you have a clean record. (If you have a CHL) I would just keep this as a reminder for proper procedure. Next time, call 911 if you have a phone with you and report what happend. Try to get the details of his plates, car description, physical discription, etc. I'd say for your first time, you did ok. Nobody died, and he probably learned a valuable lesson as well! Don't mess with people, because you never know who's packin heat! IMO, if more criminals were afraid of citizens packing heat, there would probably be less crime. |
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i think you did the right thing.
you just ended an altercation before it had the chance to esculate. in a similar event for me, i got driven off the road by an suv, got back on the road and continued driving, pulled up next to the suv at a light, their windows roll down and they start screaming at me saying theyre going to kill me and whatever. there was 5 thug gang bangers in the truck that i could count at the time, all easily bigger than me. i had the gun on my lap and called the police while they were calling me a bitch and for calling the police (it was obvious that was what i was doing). as one of them started to get out (front passenger) the light turned green and i matted it. the cops told me where to drive to and they stopped both our cars. about 5 squad cars all together. i told them i had a ccw permit for the weapon, the officers asked to see it, gave it back, and that was the end of it. several of the thugs ended up in handcuffs, not sure if they got arrested or not before they asked me to leave. all i could think that i did to provoke their actions was driving 'too slow' aka the speed limit. all in all. i was boxed in at a red light like you were. only diference was they werent out of their vehicle. if they had been, i would have been scared out of my mind and i would have without a doubt fully brandished my ccw. from my understanding, if they are out of their vehicle they mean to do you great bodily harm. but calling the police is always a good idea. even though i had a loaded gun on my lap with 4 magazines in the car i could have easily waved around for them to see and felt tougher than them, but because i called the police, i was the good guy and the victim. they had no guns, just 10 fists and feet. i walked away from the insident, they didnt. |
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Regardless of it being the right thing to do or not, I'm sure that dude will be a little more cautious when he drives from now on
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The problem I see with this is the fact that once he starts to force his way into your car, in such a situation training dictates that you shoot. The line between brandishing and drawing without pulling the trigger is a fine one. I do believe that since the man showed clear intent to attack the person who posted this, this does not constitute brandishing but rather good judgement because the assailant was given ample opportunity to see the defense mechanism (the G19 in a ready hand) and very wisely chose to de-escalate. This is not brandishing. If you wait until the person is trying to force his way into the vehicle, realistically your only option is to simply draw and fire. That means someone dies, or more than likely dies (even with that pansy little 9mm parabellum round ). I never let fights de-escalate into a fair one, and when I had two individuals close their distance with me once, I drew down and shouted at them to stop. They did, and nobody got hurt. |
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Ignore the people applying their own restrictive state laws to your situation.
The only law that matters to you is Texas law. Yes it was a grey area since you drew down on a guy approaching your car, but TX has a castle doctrine and your car is covered under those statutes. Still he had not made himself a threat to you.... You could make a claim he was assaulting you, but it would be weak. Best bet is to say he had "something" in his hand if he ever calls the police. He will not though... I would have waited until he tried something on/to my car before drawing the weapon myself. Other than that you did fine. Don't sweat the commandos and other asshats.... |
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You didn't mention calling the cops; everything else you did was reasonable.
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I agree with the general theme here.... The item that sends up the biggest red flag is not calling the police to report it. That would establish your side of the the story and have it on record. You could also include how you were feeling while this was happening. Articulating a strong, reasonable fear for your well being can carry a lot of weight in a situation like this.
I also agree that it was "gray" on if this was the time to respond with a lethal force option. One rule of thumb that I try to go by is that it's a lot easier to draw a weapon than it is to put it up. What happens if this guy doesn't sound the retreat after he sees your gun, you have greatly limited your choices on how to respond. I caution everyone I talk to that they need to be prepared to use what ever they present in a situation like this (pepper spray, baton, knife, gun, fists, ect.) My point is that once you present a weapon in a hostile situation, you have committed to it and you need to be prepared for the results. All in all, I wouldn't say that you were totally out of bounds. I would have called the police, and maybe not jumped straight to lethal force, but then again, I'm 6'3 275. And, MOST IMPORTANTLY, I wasn't there and I wasn't in your shoes. I'm not trying to be critical, just giving my point of view. I'm sure someone will disagree. That's what these forums are for. |
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You probably showed your weapon a little early as far as the law goes, but you are still here telling us about it. I would not have called the cops either. Technically you should, but where are you going to find an understanding cop when you need one? My bet would be on clear the area. If the situation comes up on you it is your word against his anyway.If he is as big as you say he was, the people or person judging you will see that also.
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