.38 Special revolvers are better BUGs than .380 ACP pistols. Fight me.

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - .38 Special revolvers are better BUGs than .380 ACP pistols. Fight me.

Posted: 4/12/2023 8:24:09 AM EDT

Both are available in very small, very light, easily-concealable handguns.

.380 pistols tend to have higher capacities and faster reloads, and .38 Special revolvers tend to be more reliable. Given the entangled fights that BUGs are carried for, the latter is the greater advantage.

When it comes to terminal ballistics, both were marginal until recently. From either, you could expect good penetration but poor expansion. The crushing action of wadcutters versus the ice-pick action of FMJs gave the edge to .38 Special.

In recent years, the big ammo manufacturers have dramatically increased this lead by figuring out how to wring both adequate penetration and fantastic expansion from .38 Special.

Federal's HST Micro, for example, has a huge hollow-point cavity that blossoms with sharp-edged petals. It expands even at low velocities, even packed with clothing, and then behaves more like a broadhead than a mushroom, cutting through tissue rather than dumping energy in a shorter distance.

Such bullets will not function reliably in autoloaders, so revolvers it is.

A Scandium J-frame is better than an LCP. Let the fight begin.

Round two will be about maximizing the hit potential from compromised positions of your five rounds with laser grips.

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Posted: 4/12/2023 8:30:22 AM EDT

[#1]

It’s the user, not the tool.

.38 is always superior to .380

Glock 26 Uber ALLIS!

Posted: 4/12/2023 8:32:52 AM EDT

[#2]

I agree. A 642 no lock with moon clips frequently finds its way into my pocket.

Posted: 4/12/2023 8:43:05 AM EDT

[#3]

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When I'm wearing gym shorts and cant do better than a holstered LCP in pocket; which is of course inferior to but quicker to access than the Glock 26 I'm also wearing / carrying in a Smartcarry.

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Posted: 4/12/2023 8:44:03 AM EDT

[#4]

I would tend to agree with you up to recently, when I got an lcp max. After shooting and carrying it for a bit, I think the higher capacity and lighter weight/smaller profile is better option than a snub revolver. Several modern .380 loads compare very respectively to .38/9mm in terms of preformance as well.
That being said, I "need" to get another 442, which, to me, is the perfect snub revolver.

Posted: 4/12/2023 9:16:25 AM EDT

[#5]

Quote History

Quoted:
/media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/deOINby-52.gif
When I'm wearing gym shorts and cant do better than a holstered LCP in pocket; which is of course inferior to but quicker to access than the Glock 26 I'm also wearing / carrying in a Smartcarry.
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/302943/20230124_105455_jpg-2779493.JPG

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Looks like you'll get penetration, but no expansion.

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Posted: 4/12/2023 9:33:52 AM EDT

[#6]

Quote History

Quoted:
I would tend to agree with you up to recently, when I got an lcp max. After shooting and carrying it for a bit, I think the higher capacity and lighter weight/smaller profile is better option than a snub revolver. Several modern .380 loads compare very respectively to .38/9mm in terms of preformance as well.
That being said, I "need" to get another 442, which, to me, is the perfect snub revolver.

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Which ones?

Posted: 4/12/2023 9:53:44 AM EDT

[#7]

The best thing about a snub is the ability to shoot all rounds while still in the pocket. At least with the Centennial models.

Posted: 4/12/2023 11:48:53 AM EDT

[#8]

Those HST revolver rounds will definitely get it done.

380 will never see that performance.

Posted: 4/12/2023 12:00:53 PM EDT

[#9]

My 380 38 thread!

Posted: 4/12/2023 12:09:53 PM EDT

[#10]

I like a .38 snubbie, but realistically, a backup gun for me is all about size. You just can't make a .38 revolver as small as a .380.

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Posted: 4/12/2023 1:32:03 PM EDT

[#11]

No question the 38 has more juice but the j frame class of guns can’t be as small as the little 380’s. For a true pocket gun the LCP is much better for me than a j frame.

Posted: 4/12/2023 2:32:25 PM EDT

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:

Looks like you'll get penetration, but no expansion.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/13440/efebef5a2605ac4b5d10d1fc18b14a5e_jpg-2779515.JPG

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View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
/media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/deOINby-52.gif
When I'm wearing gym shorts and cant do better than a holstered LCP in pocket; which is of course inferior to but quicker to access than the Glock 26 I'm also wearing / carrying in a Smartcarry.
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/302943/20230124_105455_jpg-2779493.JPG

Looks like you'll get penetration, but no expansion.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/13440/efebef5a2605ac4b5d10d1fc18b14a5e_jpg-2779515.JPG

I saw other testing, from LCP.
https://general-cartridge.com/2020/07/30/federal-380-acp-99gr-hydra-shok-deep-in-vyse-ballistics-gel/

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Posted: 4/12/2023 2:41:59 PM EDT

[#13]

You use your 38

I will use my beretta 84 cocked and locked

Gee, now both of us are happy

Please move along folks nothing to see here

Posted: 4/12/2023 3:14:01 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Which ones?

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As far back as 2013, ShootingTheBull410 did a series of testing and comparison videos called "Ammo Quest .380," where he concluded that XTP loads from various manufacturers tended to have good performance.

Ammo Quest .380 Final Wrapup: finding the BEST ammo for a .380ACP pistol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts

Quoted:
Those HST revolver rounds will definitely get it done.
380 will never see that performance.

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The PrecisionONe XTP load looks pretty good to me. You're nonetheless right that it's noticeably behind the HST .38 Special in terms of expansion, but it's still a good performer. The penetration is on-par. There are good .380 ACP personal defense loads out there.

Would you take 10+1 of this stuff, or 5 rounds of HST .38 Special? You be the judge.

Ammo Quest .380 Finals: Precision One XTP test thru Denim in ballistic gelatin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOwCXXpEP50

Posted: 4/12/2023 4:08:35 PM EDT

[#15]

I agree that the 38Sl is a better round that the 380. Also that a good 38 revolver is much more reliable than a small 380 Auto.

But, a good 380 auto (Glock 42 or Sig P230 for me) is much more shootable for me. I need constant practice with a 38 snub to be accurate but I can pick up one of my 380's and make head shots at 15 yards.

However, as a pure BUG gun, used as a backup, carried in a pocket or ancle...the 38 snub IS better.

Posted: 4/12/2023 8:11:18 PM EDT

[#16]

Both have a place. The revolver has a great advantage in the capability to be fired with something contacting the muzzle without affecting reliability, and fired while still in a pocket. Size is close, but in pocket guns very small difference in size ( depending on clothing and body shape etc) can make a huge difference in how easily carried concealed and drawn.

Ballistics are kind of a wash. Having witnessed multiple gel tests done according to fbi protocol, full profile wadcutters are still the winner for consistent adequate penetration.

In properly calibrated gel, covered with denim, nearly all the high tech hollow points have issues.
True reality- if it expands, it won’t penetrate
If it penetrates it won’t expand
A lot of very experienced revolver carriers still stick with target wadcutters.

Plus p in an alloy frame can. Be harsh, and added velocity and terminal ballistics out of a short barrel are marginal for the increased recoil
Also a lot of the plus p ammo Carrie’s lighter bullets which often shoot way off ( generally low) from point of aim. In my own tests the light 110-125 grain bullets impacted as much as a foot low at ten yards.

If you have low power and low capacity, you need to make up for it with precision, and the snubs are notoriously hard to shoot accurately even at relatively close range.

At one seminar I attended a very experienced street cop giving one of the presentations stated flatly, in every shooting he investigated involving a pocket 380, the shooter experienced a malfunction! The revolver excels in being able to run when shot one handed with a weak or imperfect grip. Lots of autos can’t do that.

Posted: 4/13/2023 12:55:41 AM EDT

[#17]

I'll take a .38 over pretty much any 9mm as well but not with that 130gr HST trash

Posted: 4/13/2023 3:00:57 AM EDT

[#18]

Depending on the specific context, each platform has a few other advantages/disadvantages. Many .380s are significantly smaller than a snub, my LCP is lighter, flatter and subjectively more shootable than my 642 (though neither are especially fun to shoot). The LCP fits in the front pocket of my vest and completely disappears like nothing else. The 642 rides nicer in the front pocket of most pants better and can generally be trusted to function when fired through a pocket or other bag/etc. The .380 is probably a bit less “effective” ballistically but as with almost all handguns placement is most important and ballistic performance is quite varied. The .380s generally carry a couple more rounds and are easier and quicker to reload, though it would be best not to have to do so with either. I prefer the LCP for a back up and the snub for a “throw in the pocket while taking out the trash”. I could live with the snub though.

Posted: 4/13/2023 11:57:13 AM EDT

[#19]

I like my +P guns
Taurus and a Smith.

Posted: 4/15/2023 8:36:21 PM EDT

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:

Looks like you'll get penetration, but no expansion.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/13440/efebef5a2605ac4b5d10d1fc18b14a5e_jpg-2779515.JPG

View Quote

These are the original hydra shoks. The guy you're replying to has the newer hydro shok _deep_ loads. Luckygunner hasn't tested those yet, but you can find a smattering of tests around on youtube, including military arms channel. And they do pretty well. They're what I carry in my lcp max.

Posted: 7/5/2023 1:23:31 PM EDT

[#21]

Maybe I should try the RIA M206 6-round snub nosed as a beater...

Posted: 7/5/2023 1:32:43 PM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:
Maybe I should try the RIA M206 6-round snub nosed as a beater...

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I've used both the RIA and the Taurus small snubbies, and IMHO, the Taurus is superior. The can routinely be found for sub $300.

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Posted: 7/5/2023 2:08:58 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Both are available in very small, very light, easily-concealable handguns.

.380 pistols tend to have higher capacities and faster reloads, and .38 Special revolvers tend to be more reliable. Given the entangled fights that BUGs are carried for, the latter is the greater advantage.

When it comes to terminal ballistics, both were marginal until recently. From either, you could expect good penetration but poor expansion. The crushing action of wadcutters versus the ice-pick action of FMJs gave the edge to .38 Special.

In recent years, the big ammo manufacturers have dramatically increased this lead by figuring out how to wring both adequate penetration and fantastic expansion from .38 Special.

Federal's HST Micro, for example, has a huge hollow-point cavity that blossoms with sharp-edged petals. It expands even at low velocities, even packed with clothing, and then behaves more like a broadhead than a mushroom, cutting through tissue rather than dumping energy in a shorter distance.

Such bullets will not function reliably in autoloaders, so revolvers it is.

A Scandium J-frame is better than an LCP. Let the fight begin.

Round two will be about maximizing the hit potential from compromised positions of your five rounds with laser grips.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/13440/IMG_4169_jpeg-2779471.JPG

View Quote

With small modern 9mm pistols I'd skip both of those and go to 9mm. I've got 38 and 380 in the gun safe. I'll carry a 9mm for a BUG.

Posted: 7/5/2023 11:28:18 PM EDT

[#24]

I don’t trust pocket autos to be reliable, I don’t trust .380 JHPs to penetrate and expand, and .38 wadcutters perform better than .380 ball.

Posted: 7/10/2023 1:09:28 PM EDT

[#25]

Quote History

Quoted:

These are the original hydra shoks. The guy you're replying to has the newer hydro shok _deep_ loads. Luckygunner hasn't tested those yet, but you can find a smattering of tests around on youtube, including military arms channel. And they do pretty well. They're what I carry in my lcp max.

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Those may be the HST 99gr but NOT the old Hydrashok or the DEEP. Lucky Gunner has found the secret sauce to getting good JHP to NOT expand. I think they botch some part of the test, maybe their jell is funky...

Posted: 7/10/2023 1:13:40 PM EDT

[#26]

Quote History

Quoted:

I've used both the RIA and the Taurus small snubbies, and IMHO, the Taurus is superior. The can routinely be found for sub $300.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/55187/IMG_6881_jpg-2874562.JPG

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I have a couple of old Taurus 85's. A lightweight and one all steel. They are probably 25 years old now. They are generally looser than my Smiths but actually outshoot the S&W for accuracy.

Posted: 7/12/2023 1:52:15 PM EDT

[#27]

Some time back I bought a smith RM380 because I wanted a small gun for when I didn’t want the bother of a full sized. I found that in the best of conditions I couldn’t make the accuracy levels I wanted. I did much better with a 442. I’ve since made the commitment to carry a weapon I can shoot as well as possible so it’s full sized for me.

That said I typically loaded the 442 with the old 158 LHP +p. Not sure how it compares to the 148WC though.

I did love how flat the 380 sat in my pocket but to be fair, the 442 carried just fine as well. I don’t wear light dress pants these days, Duluths or jeans for me.

Posted: 7/14/2023 10:48:51 AM EDT

[#28]

That cartridge is really very impressive, first I've seen of it.

But a J-frame is significantly bigger than something like a Sig 238 which still holds 2 more rounds and reloads much more quickly.

The modern small 9mm pistols are easier to shoot than ever and leave the similarly size small .38s in the dust.

Posted: 7/17/2023 11:55:17 PM EDT

[#29]

BUG as in Back Up Gun? Ease of carry and carry requirements are going to play a big role.

If your BUG can be exposed then just carry a compact or subcompact version of your primary so you can use your primary mags. Example would be Glock 17 primary OWB and Glock 19 BUG on a chest rig on external body armor.

If your BUG has to be concealed then you are looking at Glock 26, Sig P365, JFrame & LCP sized guns. I hated carrying a G26 as a concealed BUG. impossible to reholster without practically undressing. Wore holes in expensive dress shirts. Jframe was easier.

Posted: 7/19/2023 5:44:46 PM EDT

[#30]

Quote History

Quoted:

Those may be the HST 99gr but NOT the old Hydrashok or the DEEP. Lucky Gunner has found the secret sauce to getting good JHP to NOT expand. I think they botch some part of the test, maybe their jell is funky...

View Quote

Yeah, you're right, the original image is of the HSTs. However, Lucky Gunner also tested the old Hydrashoks and they didn't reliably expand either: https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#380ACP

They do use clear ballistic gel instead of FBI standard ordinance gel, that might make a difference.

Posted: 7/19/2023 6:30:33 PM EDT

[#31]

Given the mission of the BUG, yes, a revolver. Carried on an ankle for access to either hand from awkward positions.
You may draw your service weapon a thousand times and never fire a shot, but if you draw your BUG...
Suitably small(and light-for wear year after year, I carried a G26 for several years) autos generally aren't as reliable as in-spec small revolvers, and have multiple situationally intractable operator induced failure modes that revolvers do not have.
In the use case of a BUG, shots number one through five are astronomically more important than shots six to infinity.
The Centennial style revolver can be fired on the float, with an opponents hand on it or shoved against his ribcage.
The grip and trigger guard shape permit the use of the Galco Ankle Glove strapless retention system, more secure than a thumbsnap and able to be drawn palm in or palm out with either hand in any position.

Posted: 7/20/2023 10:26:25 AM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:
Given the mission of the BUG, yes, a revolver. Carried on an ankle for access to either hand from awkward positions.
You may draw your service weapon a thousand times and never fire a shot, but if you draw your BUG...
Suitably small(and light-for wear year after year, I carried a G26 for several years) autos generally aren't as reliable as in-spec small revolvers, and have multiple situationally intractable operator induced failure modes that revolvers do not have.
In the use case of a BUG, shots number one through five are astronomically more important than shots six to infinity.
The Centennial style revolver can be fired on the float, with an opponents hand on it or shoved against his ribcage.
The grip and trigger guard shape permit the use of the Galco Ankle Glove strapless retention system, more secure than a thumbsnap and able to be drawn palm in or palm out with either hand in any position.

View Quote

Thanks for posting about the strapless ankle glove.

I'm getting ready to replace a very, well-worn ankle glove with the thumbsnap, but the strapless would be the way to go for the very reasons you mentioned.

Posted: 8/2/2023 11:47:34 AM EDT

[#33]

I don't trust 380 to expand and penetrate from a pocket gun and I don't want to carry FMJ. I'm not even very confident in 38 Special out of a pocket gun. I've never seen a 38 Special round that consistently does well in multiple gel tests.

I pocket carry an SP-101 loaded with Federal 357 158gr HydraShoks or Remington 357 158gr SJHP HTPs. Mostly because these shoot to POA with the fixed sights and appear to do well in all the gel tests I've seen. It may be a little heavy but it is dependable, accurate, and very controllable with magnums.

Posted: 8/3/2023 2:44:52 PM EDT

[#34]

I agree! Would much rather carry a .38 revolver than any small .380. In my experience with shooting small .380s is some harsh feeling recoil especially in a blow back. I carry a Glock 27 often and it’s more pleasant for me than the small back up 380s. As other have pointed out don’t use that 130gr HST micro your better off with wadcutters. The 135 gr Gold dot is a good option if you can find it same with the Ranger Bonded I believe.