Generally the lower velocity loads pattern better. More energy just causes more pellet to pellet contact, which just causes more pattern spread. But the thing about buckshot is that there's always that 1 barrel out of 10 that doesn't stick with the rules.

From what I've seen, about 1 barrel out of 10 will pattern 9 pellet better than 8 pellet in FFC.

About 1 barrel out of 15-20 will prefer Hornady's VersaTite loads to FFC.

Just think if someone posted a group like that from a handgun or rifle at 25yds. We’d laugh them off the internet.

I can’t wait till I move and can put a stock on my tac14. No sbs allowed in my state.

I’ll see if I’ve got enough of the HV loads and give them a go in a few different ones. I was getting pretty low on that and was switching to the other completely. It patterned good in my 1100 for work we use the 9 pellet low velocity and it patterned good in everything I’ve shot it in. Thinking of giving the 8 pellet variant a go next order for Dept.

The shotgun will work every single time. But the clean up really sucks! Stick with the 300 BLK with subs and a can. Your hearing will appreciate it bigly!

Can you show me a home defense shooting where the house occupant emptied a 30 round mag AFTER hitting somebody with the first couple?

I'm not the one claiming a 40 foot bedroom, dude.  That's on you and a shotgun will work just fine at any REAL WORLD indoor engagement range.

A lot of truth here.

Shotguns are great, unless/until a reload is required (for tube fed guns).

I prefer a short AR, for the ergonomics, and capacity, but mostly because I have way more training and trigger time with one. I could see someone choosing a shotgun, if they have a lot more experience with them than anything else.

You need to stop with the logic and reason. His home defense scenario involves 25 cartel members and a running gun battle. The rest of us only get one or two bad guys at 25 feet.

Having to use any gun for HD is pretty far fetched.

Having to use that gun at double the average distance, is even more far fetched.

Having to deal with a hostage situation, with a precision shot, at over double the average distance, during your home invasion... If you're real worried about those odds, go ahead and switch to decaf and buy some lotto tickets.

So who is really arguing semantics here?

I don't plan for troubles because bad things can't happen to me.

That is horrible advice.

Including when surgical precision is required in the real world without the possibility of hitting someone you don’t intend to shoot with a flier or shot cup? Yes or no.

1) Why are you assuming the "first couple" are going to be hits?
2) Many gunfights last until someone is incapacitated or runs out of ammo. The shotgun runs out of ammo first.

I was talking odds, and you took it to zero, to make it absurd and stupid. Well done.

How many lotto tickets did you buy today?

Fortunately my shotguns pattern better than the pic you posted. Like I said. That's a 25 yards pattern for my Mossbergs.

And like I also said. From my nightstand down the hall is 12 yards.

I shot insurgents at farther distances than that with shitty issued buckshot to good effect.

Inside 40 feet? Yes no questions or doubts.

These threads are fun. GD has assured me shotguns won't kill anyone and are useless for HD.

So now you say it’s far fetched to cover up the inadequacies that you cannot dispute. Got it. Having to take a shot with others in close proximity is far fetched.

There is no limit to the BS you are willing to post to save face.

You can tell the shotgun ignorant because they think you need to shoot the shotgun dry before you reload. I can effectively never run dry.

They are also more effective and will need fewer shots to neutralize a threat.

I just showed you that it’s not possible.

Take the stupid butt pad off and that thing will look badass when it’s done.

Works great on running coyotes too.

Do you have a side saddle that holds at least 20? If not and grabbing from a pouch to individually load in between shots, how fast is that compared to a weapon that you don’t have to reload at at? Does that reloading affect your follow up shot speed?

None, because just like self defense shootings, the odds are astronomically against me being selected.

I don't buy lotto tickets or worry about guns because it's so unlikely to happen to me.

What's not possible?

Sir, I honestly respect your opinion and the experience from which it was formed. As I said to John-in-austin earlier in the thread: Given your experience and expertise, it's possible that you are better off with a shotgun, but that isn't true for the average person.

I have no doubt that you're able to tactically reload your shotgun while maintaining the ability to quickly engage targets, but I do doubt that the average person has a remotely similar level of proficiency.

The inability to never have a flier.

Well I will say that at an instructor class, shooting full power slugs a lot, prone, beats the hell out of your elbows and back.  Much prefer to shoot a shotgun standing up, thank you!

That's easily fixed. Like someone else said, if you're more comfortable with an AR, stick with it. For me, I do my best to maintain a high level of competency with pistol, carbine, shotgun and long range rifle. It's very difficult and I spend a lot of time, money and ammo trying to keep it up. I have taken multiple classes every year for decades with some of the best trainers in the world. All that said, people who think a shotgun is not capable of being fast, accurate and quickly reloaded just don't know what they don't know. Furthermore, usually a shotgun takes one shot to incapacitate an opponent.

I can shoot 30 rounds from an AR faster. No doubt a benefit from a carbine.

I've fought with both and prefer the shotgun.

Now there are certainly times I might choose a carbine/rifle. I actually shoot them more.

Attached File

I'm not saying that they should.

John Wayne does regularly train non shotgun people and gets them better than competent in a day.

Different guns pattern differently. I've never gotten a flier like that at 15 yards with that load. And I've fired several cases of it.

Correct. Improved cylinder is the least constrictive after cylinder, my FC shot terrible.

Good discussion so far. I’ve never shot a human with a shotgun, but here’s a 60 yard #4b kill.
That’s all I have to contribute to an HD thread …

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Oh I will as soon as it’s in my hands. It needs a buttstock. I think that’s why the stupid cover is on there.

It needs a trigger guard screw too

And I’m sure your wife didn’t bat an eye at you going around measuring distances in your house

I think a lot of us have been there…

Thank God for understanding wives who can put up with our shit.

QFT
I used to have range cards on my window sills.... Now I have LRFs.

Here I will give us some new things to ponder:

#1- ease of operation while injured (1 handed shooting/reloading/operation).  I have been trained, and taught, one handed use in handguns/rifles/shotguns.  The concept is knowing how to run them if you are hit.  Do it from both left and right hand.  With our issued 870’s, I would absolutely give the edge to an AR for ease of pointing, firing, and reloading over the shotgun.  ie-pump shotguns assume you have both hands available.  In the Miami FBI incident, one agent was doing one handed shooting with a shotgun- it happens.  (A pistol is easier than a shotgun as well, but hopelessly less effective.)

#2- shotguns can breach doors, even if you don’t have specific breaching ammo.  For that reason alone, people who respond to stuff like active shootings need to have access and bring them into the scene, even if they are not the primary weapon.  Military issued breaching ammo is some serious powered stuff too, compared to the typical stuff LE uses (usually Royal Arms).

#3- you can have an ammo like Polyshok, which was basically birdshot in a plastic cylindrical casing.  At close range it was useful as a breaching round.  But it travelled like a slug and was reasonably accurate at distance.  Birdshot normally is a joke on humans, but not when it is contained in a slug type projectile.  Unfortunately Polyshok went out of business long ago, not sure if anything like that still exists.  

#4- if you like the least effective less lethal rounds, there is still a lot of 12 gauge options out there.  40mm is better any day of the week, but if you need to smack a neighbors pitbull, or a deer, this probably is the stuff to use if you don’t need to kill it, just get it to go away.

#5- we all love Federal Flight Control, but we need to realize that most buckshot you can find on store shelves is just whatever happens to be cheap or available.  FFC probably does not reside in most shotgun owners safes.  The incidents I mentioned before were all before FFC was even invented, so “legacy” buckshot.  Basically I save that stuff for if things go south someday, and shoot lots of cheaper ammo for practice.  (Since I don’t get to shoot free ammo anymore, one down side of retiring.)

(When my dad tells his story about his incident, probably in the early 70’s, he says that “the pattern was probably as big as a house at that distance”.  And that is likely accurate.  The other incidents I mentioned were in the mid 90’s).


I have a hard time not buying any good condition, cheap 870P I find, part of it is nostalgia, part is that I can fix anything on them, part is that I know how damned effective they are in the right circumstances.  The versatility of ammo is unmatched.  My safe has a several loaded weapons right up front for immediate use, a 870P and a Beretta 1201FP are two of them, but the most likely to be grabbed is still a SBR Colt 5.56….

But if you said “we need to go shoot someone thru a car windshield, make it count on the first shot”, a slug would likely be my first choice…


Wait- forgot one!
#6- shotguns are better for buttstroking somebody.  However a sharp flash hider is better for a nice muzzle punch…hmm.

High speed camera footage of buckxhot loads. Go to 2:30.  You can see how a full choke affects the flite control loads.

Said nobody, ever.

Regarding #3 - Maybe Cut Shells could be used in their stead? Similar/close enough?

I wanted to compare some older higher velocity buck I have stashed last week, 870 18.5 IC.  Flight control was almost half without the flier.


xm127ps  

LE 132ps  

LE 133ps  

3 rds of 00 Buck on target = 27x .33 cal ball, how many rounds of .223 are equivalent?

Damn dude, save some coyotes for the rest of us.  I never get any in my usual spot near Springfield.

Yep. I couldn't be happier. Even though I haven't shot it yet.

Right above the 7 inch mark, there is one that flew away from all the others. In any case, that pattern isn’t something that would be optimal if having to take a shot in a home in close proximity to an innocent. Having your shot going about 4 inches to the right at spitting distances from a rifle would be considered totally unacceptable by anyone here.

Yessir