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Posted: 11/23/2022 12:35:12 PM EST
Most peoples entire conceptions of calibers are completely fucked off.

When evaluating modern cartridges, it’s important to understand the why behind them, and you’ll start to realize why Hornady has such success with releasing new cartridges.

It is not strictly about performance, in the case of why they are better. They are great performers, but that isn’t the full story.

You have to look at the evolution of cartridge design alongside the development of rifles, and the shifting techniques, intended purposes, etc to start to grasp it. You have people out there wildcatting cartridges to good success, smaller companies introducing their own cartridges that become popular, and people constantly pushing the edge. What seems to be the issue a lot of the time is SAAMI certification. Whether multiple different versions of a cartridge actually exist, or they run into other issues, that will always be a barrier for mainstream adoption.

The modern mentality had also changed. Throwing more powder behind it doesn’t equal a 1:1 change in performance. We have science now. Why have needless recoil? Why not maximize the performance for the amount of recoil? Why not sling a bullet that better moves through the air that retains more of its energy? Why not prioritize the inherent accuracy of a cartridge over the muzzle energy (which was always a retarded metric)? Why not have a cartridge design which makes it easier for manufacturers to build accurate rifles? Why not have a greater ability to spot your own shot, particularly in hunting scenarios? Why not have a bullet that isn’t as pushed around by the wind? Why not have a caliber that doesn’t need ridiculously long barrels to work? At some point we realized we don’t have to hitch our masculinity on how big, loud, and obnoxious the caliber we were shooting was, and realized that if we have a better performing and lower recoil round, we will all be better shooters.

Your old boomer cartridges are outdated. Sorry to be the one to break it to you. Can you spend a bunch of effort making a more accurate rifle, can you have custom chambers cut, can you load ammo extraordinarily hot and have it “keep up” (“outperform” if you’re one of those special internet handloaders) and still kill shit? Of course. Can you not do any of those things, grab a box of 308 off the shelf of Walmart, and go kill a whitetail at 50 years? Sure. Do you need a new caliber? Your gun isn’t useless, you don’t have to throw it away. But all this needless defense is just pure unfiltered copium.

Modern cartridges are superior because of system which they create. They are designed so well, that all the off the shelf guns are incredibly accurate. The chambers are better, and reflect tighter tolerances if the modern age, leading to better handoff, leading to better accuracy. This means I can go grab off the shelf guns and ammo, and have great success. I don’t have to worry as much about my guns being picky and only liking certain ammo, I don’t have to have some custom gun or spend tons of money with a gunsmith working on my existing gun for it to be accurate, I don’t have to handload for adequate performance. Hornady also does a fantastic job at the execution of releasing these, working alongside manufacturers to ensure the guns being put out actually work with the ammo they are making (*cough*224 Valkyrie*cough*).

Of course, people will mock this, because now you don’t need a bunch of esoteric gun knowledge, you don’t have to larp as a ballistics expert, you don’t get to break out how knowledgeable you are on this stuff. You can have a new guy grab a rifle and ammo and an Sig Kilo and have capability dreamed about or financially out of reach 10-15 years ago.

But it’s just all marketing. If it’s all just marketing, you’re going to have to make the case to me why Hornady has succeeded so well at this, while somehow Winchester Olin and Vista Outdoors have so utterly failed at introducing new calibers.
brownells
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:37:58 PM EST
[#1]
So what your saying is, modern cartridges and .308/300WM all kill things effectively?
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:38:02 PM EST
[#2]
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:38:03 PM EST
[#3]
Western small arms development would have been so much better off if it had been based on 6mm Lee Navy rather than 30-03.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:38:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: www-glock19-com] [#4]
TLDR

Most improvements in rifle calibers is splitting hairs , 99.9999% of the people out there do not have the need and do not possess the skill to exploit the marginal improvements of the newer cartridges over the classic ones
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:38:33 PM EST
[#5]
Are there newer and better calibers? Yes

Will .308 and .300 win mag still get the job done for the vast majority of civilian use cases? Yes
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:38:41 PM EST
[#6]
308 works fine for me
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:39:13 PM EST
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:
TLDR

Most improvements in rifle calibers is splitting hairs , 99.9999% of the people put there do not have the need and do not possess the skill to exploit the marginal improvements of the newer cartridges over the classic ones
View Quote

Except it’s not.

That’s like saying an Acura and an F1 car are basically splitting hairs because most people don’t have the skills to drive the F1 cars.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:40:13 PM EST
[#8]
My main .308 gun is a G3 clone.

So I'm double outdated, but I also look cool.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:40:38 PM EST
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Midyew5959:
So what your saying is, modern cartridges and .308/300WM all kill things effectively?
View Quote

If all of your killing is done 50 yards from the feeder, sure, why not?

A horse and buggy is outdated, but it suppose it will still get me to work. Hell, probably a little faster than a 308, too.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:41:41 PM EST
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By narphenal:

Except it’s not.

That’s like saying an Acura and an F1 car are basically splitting hairs because most people don’t have the skills to drive the F1 cars.
View Quote



They don't.  Most people would drive that F1 race car just like they drive their Acura.  15mph under the speed limit in the left lane.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:41:48 PM EST
[#11]
That’s way too long to read or digest. Summary?

I like my .308s I love my 6.5s. They’re both great but I shittalk the 308 in grandpa kcolg threads cuz it gets him riled up
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:42:35 PM EST
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Midyew5959:



They don't.  Most people would drive that F1 race car just like they drive their Acura.  15mph under the speed limit in the left lane.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Midyew5959:
Originally Posted By narphenal:

Except it’s not.

That’s like saying an Acura and an F1 car are basically splitting hairs because most people don’t have the skills to drive the F1 cars.



They don't.  Most people would drive that F1 race car just like they drive their Acura.  15mph under the speed limit in the left lane.


So we should base what’s best on what the vast majority is doing?

The vast majority of people don’t even shoot their guns, so why not just have airsoft guns instead?
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:42:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: chase45] [#13]
I only have 308s in case I feel I need it as a road gun to punch through more sheet metal
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:43:49 PM EST
[#14]
I like NATO standard calibers for... reasons
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:43:52 PM EST
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By narphenal:

If all of your killing is done 50 yards from the feeder, sure, why not?

A horse and buggy is outdated, but it suppose it will still get me to work. Hell, probably a little faster than a 308, too.
View Quote


Uhh, if you are only successful at 50 yards with a .308 then that's not a gun problem.  That's a you problem.  Much like your Acura and F1 example, these modern cartridges don't do anything if you can't shoot well.  

50 yards with a .308 WTF

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:44:41 PM EST
[#16]
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:46:00 PM EST
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Spade:
My main .308 gun is a G3 clone.

So I'm double outdated, but I also look cool.
View Quote


Word

Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:46:49 PM EST
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By narphenal:


So we should base what’s best on what the vast majority is doing?

The vast majority of people don’t even shoot their guns, so why not just have airsoft guns instead?
View Quote


I don't think the vast majority is shooting .308 or 300wm.  They're shooting 5.56 and 9mm.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:47:37 PM EST
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Spade:
My main .308 gun is a G3 clone.

So I'm double outdated, but I also look cool.
View Quote

I'm all for looking cool, but that doesn't make 308 any less outdated.

Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:47:54 PM EST
[#20]
I didn't read any of that.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:48:11 PM EST
[#21]
I have yet to see a box of any of the new calibers on the shelf in Bush AK.

Can almost always find 308 and 300WM in most villages.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:48:56 PM EST
[#22]
.300 win mag does a splendid job of killing medium and large game quickly and without a lot of tracking in the eastern woodlands.

That's why people use it.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:49:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: dorobuta] [#23]
You touched on why you're wrong in your own post. Rifles have gotten better with tolerances. an off the shelf .308 today is much closer to a custom rifle of 10-15 years ago in terms of accuracy. Bullet selection and round manufacturing for the same .308 ammo with newer powders and bullet construction also makes them more accurate than in the past.

There's plenty of reasons for newer cartridges and rifles to gain popularity, but the .308s have benefitted from manufacturing and improvements in quality along with everything else.

Hate all you want. I don't care. I own 4 .308 calibers: 7.62x51 for my FAL and my Sig 716, 30-06 for my Garand, and .300 AAC blackout for my ARs. There's not a lot of impetus to ditch these for a newer caliber.

I hunt more with my bow than anything else, but .280 AI covers most critters, and my .338 WM does quite well. I also have 5.56 for coyotes.

I don't see a need to change any of these.

YMMV
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:49:32 PM EST
[#24]
Originally Posted By Midyew5959:


Uhh, if you are only successful at 50 yards with a .308 then that's not a gun problem.  That's a you problem.  Much like your Acura and F1 example, these modern cartridges don't do anything if you can't shoot well.  

50 yards with a .308 WTF

/media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/476-342.gif
View Quote


You have to be careful going much further than that, otherwise a gust a wind could take your bullet away.

Originally Posted By Midyew5959:


I don't think the vast majority is shooting .308 or 300wm.  They're shooting 5.56 and 9mm.
View Quote

That's crazy, it's almost like the thread isn't about people shooting 5.56 and 9mm, it's almost like it's about modern cartridges versus outdated cartridges, specifically 300WM and 308.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:49:46 PM EST
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By narphenal:

If all of your killing is done 50 yards from the feeder, sure, why not?

A horse and buggy is outdated, but it suppose it will still get me to work. Hell, probably a little faster than a 308, too.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By narphenal:
Originally Posted By Midyew5959:
So what your saying is, modern cartridges and .308/300WM all kill things effectively?

If all of your killing is done 50 yards from the feeder, sure, why not?

A horse and buggy is outdated, but it suppose it will still get me to work. Hell, probably a little faster than a 308, too.


I doubt I'm ever going to shoot a deer around here at more than 200yd. .308 is fine.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:50:30 PM EST
[#26]
30-06 is all a man needs. You can find bullet weights to hunt gophers all the way up to moose.

At least thats what the expert behind the counter told me.





To which I replied, the '06 is a jack of all trades, master of none. Thats why I don't have one.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:50:55 PM EST
[#27]
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:52:02 PM EST
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Alex_F:
I like NATO standard calibers for... reasons
View Quote


This.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:52:50 PM EST
[#29]
6.5 PRC
300 PRC
375 Ruger
Blaser R8
3 Swarovski Z8i

If only.

New rounds allow for larger grain better BC bullets to be seated farther out and retain the same FPS as their Boomer counterparts.  

That and loose the belt.

But the animals don’t know the difference.

Shot placement trumps all.

Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:52:55 PM EST
[#30]
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
.300 win mag does a splendid job of killing medium and large game quickly and without a lot of tracking in the eastern woodlands.

That's why people use it.
View Quote

That's why people use it. That and institutional momentum.

Originally Posted By dorobuta:
You touched on why you're wrong in your own post. Rifles have gotten better with tolerances. an off the shelf .308 today is much closer to a custom rifle of 10-15 years ago in terms of accuracy. Bullet selection and round manufacturing for the same .308 ammo with newer powders and bullet construction also makes them more accurate than in the past.

There's plenty of reasons for newer cartridges and rifles to gain popularity, but the .308s have benefitted from manufacturing and improvements in quality along with everything else.

Hate all you want. I don't care. I own 4 .308 calibers: 7.62x51 for my FAL and my Sig 716, 30-06 for my Garand, and .300 AAC blackout for my ARs. There's not a lot of impetus to ditch these for a newer caliber.

I hunt more with my bow than anything else, but .280 AI covers most critters, and my .338 WM does quite well. I also have 5.56 for coyotes.

I don't see a need to change any of these.

YMMV
View Quote


Yet chamber design and internal ballistics is all still a thing, regardless of tighter tolerances of machining. You're still going to be subject to the original design of the round, and the SAAMI specs within.

Just because machining overall has gotten tighter, doesn't somehow magically mean they are shrinking the tolerances of the chamber.  That is unless you're getting into custom cut chambers, etc.

More modern calibers do a better job with concentricity and the handoff of the bullet to the barrel.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:53:57 PM EST
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JVD:


I doubt I'm ever going to shoot a deer around here at more than 200yd. .308 is fine.
View Quote

Even at 200 yards, you can get away with a lot less.

So why have excessive recoil and waste extra powder needlessly?
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:54:05 PM EST
[#32]
So the 6.5 needmore is perfect?
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:54:08 PM EST
[#33]
Meh, I live in western PA...Its hard to find places where I can even shoot over 100 yards. Pretty much everything works fine around here
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:55:12 PM EST
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TXPaladin:
30-06 is all a man needs. You can find bullet weights to hunt gophers all the way up to moose.

At least thats what the expert behind the counter told me.





To which I replied, the '06 is a jack of all trades, master of none. Thats why I don't have one.
View Quote


Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:56:49 PM EST
[#35]
Originally Posted By narphenal:
We have science now.

View Quote



Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:56:57 PM EST
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DVCER:
So the 6.5 needmore is perfect?
View Quote

It's a great versatile cartridge.

But everything is requirement driven.

I love this visual the best.

Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:57:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 50cal] [#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Midyew5959:
So what your saying is, modern cartridges and .308/300WM all kill things effectively?
View Quote

Yep.

I still hunt with a 308 bolt gun. Haven't taken anything over 200 yds with it.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:57:25 PM EST
[#38]
If your sole goal is to improve long range accuracy, then OP is correct.   There are better calibers, if you're looking to eke out a few seconds of arc angle.

But for 99% of real world shooting, 308/300WM/.30-06 are just fine.   And they don't cost an arm and a leg like the boutique stuff.


Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:58:01 PM EST
[#39]
Have you accepted the 30-30 as your Lord and Savior?

Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:58:05 PM EST
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By narphenal:
That's why people use it. That and institutional momentum.
View Quote


When your primary measure of a cartridge's utility is how quickly it puts animals on the ground so you don't have to track them, more esoteric concerns about ideal ballistics calculations don't really factor in.

If I needed to hit a target at 1,000 yards I'd take a 6.5 creedmoor rifle any day. One of the things a company I am part owner of teaches is precision and the difference between 6.5 creed and .308/7.62 is starkly evident once the range gets past 800.

But when it comes to harvesting a game animal as quickly and efficiently as possible, I no longer care about ballistics at 900 yards. I'm not shooting that far to kill a deer. Damn near nobody is. I have about a 300 yard maximum shot and I need to drop the animal as quickly as possible so I don't end up losing it when it runs through thick brush and bramble. The .300 is better for that application.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:59:24 PM EST
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
.300 win mag does a splendid job of killing medium and large game quickly and without a lot of tracking in the eastern woodlands.

That's why people use it.
View Quote


Can confirm, works well in Africa too. Plenty of one shot drop in their tracks shots from 180 gr. .300WSM on animals larger than you'll ever find in the eastern woodlands.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:59:29 PM EST
[#42]
Most people can’t shoot up to the potential of their rifle —-or drive to the potential of the vehicle.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:59:53 PM EST
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:
TLDR

Most improvements in rifle calibers is splitting hairs , 99.9999% of the people out there do not have the need and do not possess the skill to exploit the marginal improvements of the newer cartridges over the classic ones
View Quote

If all you are looking at is the performance of the caliber of day that statement is most true. What OP is talking about is the importance of the whole system and how it comes to be nowadays vs old times.

There’s a reason the new stuff is successful and it’s not all just hype.
300 Blackout>300 Whisper
6.5 Creedmoor>260 Remington

This has been going on forever we’re just getting better at it. Just like 243 beat out 244.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 12:59:53 PM EST
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GGF:
Have you accepted the 30-30 as your Lord and Savior?

View Quote

You get issued a lever action 30-30 in Pennsylvania, but they make you buy your own pump action 30-06
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 1:00:27 PM EST
[#45]
You are correct, but your point will be lost on the vast majority of ARFCOM.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 1:01:37 PM EST
[#46]
Dudes who know guns have known .30 cal rounds have been outdated since Garand and Saive were designing their rifles. Thread title needs "breaking."
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 1:01:38 PM EST
[#47]
Whatever……. Somewhere in Africa someone is dying from a 8mm right now. Outdated? Yes. But still deadly.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 1:02:21 PM EST
[#48]
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 1:03:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: anymanusa] [#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By narphenal:

Even at 200 yards, you can get away with a lot less.

So why have excessive recoil and waste extra powder needlessly?
View Quote

Cost and availability.

Bought my stashes when 308 was much less than other comparable calibers. Hey, it's still that way.

It must be painful to be so dumb.

That's not directed at you of course....just the generally myopic thought process of this thread.
Link Posted: 11/23/2022 1:03:29 PM EST
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By speedracer422:

You get issued a lever action 30-30 in Pennsylvania, but they make you buy your own pump action 30-06
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By speedracer422:
Originally Posted By GGF:
Have you accepted the 30-30 as your Lord and Savior?


You get issued a lever action 30-30 in Pennsylvania, but they make you buy your own pump action 30-06


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