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Posted: 8/26/2021 1:00:05 PM EDT
[#1]
"Greenwald’s widow Julia, as a representative of his estate, didn’t wait for the final report to sue the city of Kokomo, and the city settled the lawsuit in June, agreeing to pay $700,000 — the maximum allowed under Indiana’s tort claim laws — through the city’s insurer, the Kokomo Tribune reported. The lawsuit claimed the employee, John Yount, was not properly trained for the job, a result of negligence on the part of the city and its airport."
 They could have filled the tanks with Lime Jello for all I care... The end result was caused by multiple failures of the pilot. 
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Posted: 8/26/2021 1:09:35 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote Historyand his reaction in the air when the engines failed. Quote Historyand his reaction in the air when the engines failed. The end result was caused by the failures of the pilot. What, exactly, were the pilot's error(s)? I don't mind a link to a vid or report, if no one cares to summarize. |
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Posted: 8/26/2021 1:14:21 PM EDT
[#3]
Local Race Trac gas station has the DEF and Diesel nozzle right next to each other. When I had my diesel I would not use them. A buddy of mine put DEF in his diesel tank 2x at that location. He was able to get his truck repaired but his reputation is totaled.
Lesson here is to pay attention. Focus on what you need to right now, and everything else when it is time to. I can only imagine he had his mind on something else and off handedly answered the fuel jockey without really hearing him. |
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Posted: 8/26/2021 1:15:03 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What, exactly, were the pilot's error(s)? I don't mind a link to a vid or report, if no one cares to summarize. Quote HistoryQuoted: and his reaction in the air when the engines failed. The end result was caused by the failures of the pilot. What, exactly, were the pilot's error(s)? I don't mind a link to a vid or report, if no one cares to summarize. After the engines failed, Greenwald’s “exceedance of the airplane’s critical angle of attack” — the angle of the wings in relation to the relative wind — resulted in an aerodynamic stall and subsequent loss of control, the report states Sounds like he panicked and jerked the wheel. |
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Posted: 8/26/2021 1:20:21 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryLocal Race Trac gas station has the DEF and Diesel nozzle right next to each other. Quote HistoryLocal Race Trac gas station has the DEF and Diesel nozzle right next to each other. A woman went off on me once, when I let her know her TDI VW doesn't take gasoline (diesel on other side of station, on separate island). I said something to the affect of "good luck". Quoted:Sounds like he panicked and jerked the wheel. Thank you. |
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Posted: 8/26/2021 1:21:44 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What, exactly, were the pilot's error(s)? Failure to supervise the fueling Failure to check the fuel (at minimum) It also appears that he failed to respond to the loss of power correctly |
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Posted: 8/26/2021 5:27:40 PM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 8/26/2021 5:42:29 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Local Race Trac gas station has the DEF and Diesel nozzle right next to each other. When I had my diesel I would not use them. I have probably personally fuelled over 300,000 gallons of diesel, gasoline, DEF, etc. It's hard to screw up at a truck stop because of diesel and DEF sequencing. When I fill up my personal pickup with diesel, however, I double double triple-check. Diesel pump, diesel nozzle, etc. When I (only rarely) have to add DEF I do the same thing. I don't know what was going on with the airport fueler, but damn. |
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Posted: 8/26/2021 5:44:13 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Failure to supervise the fueling Failure to check the fuel (at minimum) It also appears that he failed to respond to the loss of power correctly Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What, exactly, were the pilot's error(s)? Failure to supervise the fueling Failure to check the fuel (at minimum) It also appears that he failed to respond to the loss of power correctly Agreed. I watched a man doing flybys in his SNJ run it out of fuel right in front of me and my boys. On his last pass there were two loud lean pops and you could hear the power go away. He leveled off over a field and thankfully had enough in the tank he switched to to bring the engine back to life. When he landed he was pretty humbled in his conversation with my boys about his mistake. I looked at the boys and said... THIS is why you dip the tanks and visually verify you have fuel. He hung his head and said absolutely. |
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Posted: 8/26/2021 5:59:31 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Agreed. I watched a man doing flybys in his SNJ run it out of fuel right in front of me and my boys. On his last pass there were two loud lean pops and you could hear the power go away. He leveled off over a field and thankfully had enough in the tank he switched to to bring the engine back to life. When he landed he was pretty humbled in his conversation with my boys about his mistake. I looked at the boys and said... THIS is why you dip the tanks and visually verify you have fuel. He hung his head and said absolutely. John Denver decided against topping of his tanks as he was only going to practice touch and go landings, it cost him his life. |
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Posted: 8/26/2021 7:22:52 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: John Denver decided against topping of his tanks as he was only going to practice touch and go landings, it cost him his life. Negative He crashed a perfectly good airplane that had enough fuel for the flight. He crashed primarily due to poor piloting along with unfamiliarity with the aircraft. |
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Posted: 8/26/2021 7:32:08 PM EDT
[#12]
There is one thing all physicians should be taught in school and residency, we don't mix well with planes (that we fly).
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Posted: 8/26/2021 10:14:15 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have probably personally fuelled over 300,000 gallons of diesel, gasoline, DEF, etc. It's hard to screw up at a truck stop because of diesel and DEF sequencing. When I fill up my personal pickup with diesel, however, I double double triple-check. Diesel pump, diesel nozzle, etc. When I (only rarely) have to add DEF I do the same thing. I don't know what was going on with the airport fueler, but damn. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Local Race Trac gas station has the DEF and Diesel nozzle right next to each other. When I had my diesel I would not use them. I have probably personally fuelled over 300,000 gallons of diesel, gasoline, DEF, etc. It's hard to screw up at a truck stop because of diesel and DEF sequencing. When I fill up my personal pickup with diesel, however, I double double triple-check. Diesel pump, diesel nozzle, etc. When I (only rarely) have to add DEF I do the same thing. I don't know what was going on with the airport fueler, but damn. My buddy is on a waiting list to have his cell phone removed from his hand. He is the kind of person you have to sometimes steer around poles when your walking together. At a desk, or on a computer he is a wizard. He is a civil engineer by profession He also has an issue doing simple math like balancing a check book.
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Posted: 8/27/2021 12:09:31 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sounds like he panicked and jerked the wheel. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: and his reaction in the air when the engines failed. The end result was caused by the failures of the pilot. What, exactly, were the pilot's error(s)? I don't mind a link to a vid or report, if no one cares to summarize. After the engines failed, Greenwald’s “exceedance of the airplane’s critical angle of attack” — the angle of the wings in relation to the relative wind — resulted in an aerodynamic stall and subsequent loss of control, the report states Sounds like he panicked and jerked the wheel. Sounds like you should shut the fuck up because you clearly didn’t know Dan. |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 12:33:04 AM EDT
[#15]
You can fault him if he didn’t sump the tanks, but don’t fault him for some panicked reaction. We all beat ourselves up over it. He’d invited me to come fly with him in that plane. Two others were invited on that trip. We all wondered if we would have caught the fuel issue.
If I had to guess, it would be that he thought it was the center tank vapor lock issues that Aerostars are known for. The story about him ordering Jet-A for it is bullshit. He owned an Extra 330 and an L39 and regularly switched between airplanes that burned Jet-A and avgas — not just those two, but citations, Navajos and Cheyennes. He would not have ordered the wrong fuel. |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 7:31:29 AM EDT
[#16]
I make sure I'm always present before the fuel truck leaves, so that I can make sure that it says '100LL' on it.
Then I'll check the levels and sump the tanks. It's not that I don't trust them, but it's cheap insurance against a preventable error. Better to be on the ground and angry about the misfueling, instead of dead. |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 9:48:58 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Negative He crashed a perfectly good airplane that had enough fuel for the flight. He crashed primarily due to poor piloting along with unfamiliarity with the aircraft. |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 10:39:45 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My understanding was he did not know the location of the tank selector and had plenty of fuel. He knew where it was located, over his left shoulder in a difficult to reach location, access to it was even discussed prior to the flight. The speculation is that he released his harness to reach back and turn the selector, as he stretched he "pushed off" with his right foot and was actually depressing the right rudder. Which produced a right roll with a bit of positive pitch, causing a rapid spiral decent right into the water (alt was estimated to be 400-500ft). The NTSB and others have recreated the same scenario in the same model and it always produced a similar result, which matched the descriptions of multiple witnesses. He knew where the selector was but it was difficult to reach for even tall pilots (he was short), and it was unmarked along with the fuel sight gauges. There were plans to relocate the selector to it's normal position later that year. I remember that a guy from the shop gave him a mirror so he could see the selectors position (which they found in the wreckage) and that at some point they used Vice-Grips to act as sort of a handle extension, but IIRC they only tried it then removed them. No matter what though, he forgot to "fly the plane"... no one is immune from screwing up. |
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Posted: 8/27/2021 11:30:14 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can fault him if he didn’t sump the tanks, but don’t fault him for some panicked reaction. We all beat ourselves up over it. He’d invited me to come fly with him in that plane. Two others were invited on that trip. We all wondered if we would have caught the fuel issue. If I had to guess, it would be that he thought it was the center tank vapor lock issues that Aerostars are known for. The story about him ordering Jet-A for it is bullshit. He owned an Extra 330 and an L39 and regularly switched between airplanes that burned Jet-A and avgas — not just those two, but citations, Navajos and Cheyennes. He would not have ordered the wrong fuel. Sorry a555. Losing someone you know always sucks. I have lost too many friends and acquaintances in aviation accidents. Sometimes other pilots are pretty harsh in their analysis of the accidents of other pilots. Right or wrong. I believe personally that this accident was a combination of oversights/mistakes on both the pilot and the ramp monkey coming together and creating a nasty mess. Sad deal. |
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Posted: 8/28/2021 2:48:44 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can fault him if he didn’t sump the tanks, but don’t fault him for some panicked reaction. We all beat ourselves up over it. He’d invited me to come fly with him in that plane. Two others were invited on that trip. We all wondered if we would have caught the fuel issue. If I had to guess, it would be that he thought it was the center tank vapor lock issues that Aerostars are known for. The story about him ordering Jet-A for it is bullshit. He owned an Extra 330 and an L39 and regularly switched between airplanes that burned Jet-A and avgas — not just those two, but citations, Navajos and Cheyennes. He would not have ordered the wrong fuel. I thought this was your buddy, sorry man. |
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Posted: 8/28/2021 3:43:13 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Agreed. I watched a man doing flybys in his SNJ run it out of fuel right in front of me and my boys. On his last pass there were two loud lean pops and you could hear the power go away. He leveled off over a field and thankfully had enough in the tank he switched to to bring the engine back to life. When he landed he was pretty humbled in his conversation with my boys about his mistake. I looked at the boys and said... THIS is why you dip the tanks and visually verify you have fuel. He hung his head and said absolutely. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: What, exactly, were the pilot's error(s)? Failure to supervise the fueling Failure to check the fuel (at minimum) It also appears that he failed to respond to the loss of power correctly Agreed. I watched a man doing flybys in his SNJ run it out of fuel right in front of me and my boys. On his last pass there were two loud lean pops and you could hear the power go away. He leveled off over a field and thankfully had enough in the tank he switched to to bring the engine back to life. When he landed he was pretty humbled in his conversation with my boys about his mistake. I looked at the boys and said... THIS is why you dip the tanks and visually verify you have fuel. He hung his head and said absolutely. Who's the boys? I'm confused |
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Posted: 8/28/2021 7:43:33 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who's the boys? I'm confused I assume “the boys” refers to his earlier statement about “his boys”. |
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Posted: 8/28/2021 8:15:41 AM EDT
[#23]
@a555
Empathy for your loss sir. |
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Posted: 8/28/2021 8:24:20 AM EDT
[#24]
Indiana has a tort cap of $ 700k
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Posted: 8/28/2021 9:24:16 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My understanding was he did not know the location of the tank selector and had plenty of fuel. I thought he knew, but it was in such a bad position, that he couldn't get to it. Jay |
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Posted: 8/28/2021 10:29:50 AM EDT
[#26]
So am I to understand that the fuel selector on an Aerostar is on the left sidewall, aft of the door? If so, then
There is no mention of fuel selectors or pushing off on rudder pedals in either the NTSB docket, the final report, or the ever helpful Kathryn's Report. More interesting than the Yet Another incorrect fueling, especially on the swoopy Aerostar, or another LOC on departure engine failure, is the amount of flat out lying that seems to be going on. Does anyone believe the line guy's assertion that he asked twice about jet fuel and the pilot answered in the affirmative? Occam's Razor suggests this was made up out of whole cloth, although certainly the pilot did not pay any attention to what was going into the aircraft. And then there is the tidbit in Kathryn's Report (don't see it in the Docket, provenance unknown) about how "[The owner] stated that he never gave permission for the accident pilot to fly the airplane. The owner declined to provide more information as who he gave the airplane keys to." On the other hand, being my own devil's advocate, the line guy was so new, and so uneducated, how would he know to lie like that? Maybe the pilot was paying attention? No disrespect to you or your friend, a555, but could this have been an elaborate insurance scheme/suicide? The pilot was alone. In a borrowed aircraft. In an aircraft known for its "turbine looks". Maybe he did know the line guy in question was so new to aviation that he literally did not know the difference between piston and turboprop engines (per the Yoont record of interview in the docket)? Maybe he did ask the new, ignorant line guy for Jet A? And then, when the engines inevitably quit, did what he wanted to do? That's speculative as all hell, of course, and it'll never be known for certain. |
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Posted: 8/28/2021 10:43:37 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So am I to understand that the fuel selector on an Aerostar is on the left sidewall, aft of the door? No. You have totally confused two different mishaps. The fuel selector issue was part of the John Denver Crash. |
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Posted: 8/28/2021 10:58:25 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. You have totally confused two different mishaps. The fuel selector issue was part of the John Denver Crash. |
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Posted: 8/29/2021 8:20:46 PM EDT
[#29]
I’m curious what the feather status of the propellers were. If you’re holding on right above blue line and the good engine dies, wouldn’t you lose significant coverage of control surfaces and have a rapid shift of drag to the second engine.
I imagine that if you were to have to react quickly to a circumstance so close to the edge of the envelope that it might be impossible to put in adequate control input to prevent a stall or he could have been cornered between enough pitch down attitude to remain flying to where you’d either flying nose first into the ground or staling. Either of which means rapid vertical descent. |
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Posted: 8/29/2021 8:33:44 PM EDT
[#30]
He also knew how to stall an airplane. Whenever one of us would get a new plane, he’d do a stall series with us. My old Mooney at full power would require full right rudder in a stall. We’d start with mild power off stalls, then start at higher speeds and accelerate the yoke for harder stalls. My fear of the plane getting into an uncontrollable and unrecoverable spin was demonstrated to be false when he’d apply full power and hold the plane in a full stall at 4000ft. It did yaw somewhat violently in protest to the stall at such high pitch angles as it required almost full right rudder with that much power. Our lunch conversations often centered around how many different variables affect stall speed — weight, cg, temperature and pressure, wing and gear configurations, wind, engine thrust and slipstream, et cetera. I guess what I’m getting it is he was a GA pilot that flew lots of different airplanes, trained with a number of fighter pilots and astronauts, and was comfortable going in and out of stalls in lots of different airplane types. He also continued to train people in his Baron for single engine ops with one engine completely off.
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Posted: 9/2/2021 11:41:47 PM EDT
[#31]
Wow, an Aerostar! Thought all those disappeared with the end of check charters.
Sad deal. |
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Posted: 9/4/2021 11:00:59 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sounds like he panicked and jerked the wheel. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: and his reaction in the air when the engines failed. The end result was caused by the failures of the pilot. What, exactly, were the pilot's error(s)? I don't mind a link to a vid or report, if no one cares to summarize. After the engines failed, Greenwald’s “exceedance of the airplane’s critical angle of attack” — the angle of the wings in relation to the relative wind — resulted in an aerodynamic stall and subsequent loss of control, the report states Sounds like he panicked and jerked the wheel. Negative. The FBO fueler who put Jet-A into a recip, committed homicide, pure and simple. Yes, the pilot should have supervised fueling, but the truth is, there are many aviation related workers who demonstrate incompetence to the point of sabotage. I have seen literally Hundreds of events. No pilot can avoid them all. Pay attention to detail. |
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Posted: 9/4/2021 11:31:18 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Negative. Stick to dispatching. The FBO fueler who put Jet-A into a recip, committed homicide, pure and simple. Yes, the pilot should have supervised fueling, but the truth is, there are many aviation related workers who demonstrate incompetence to the point of sabotage. I have seen literally Hundreds of events. No pilot can avoid them all. Pay attention to detail. Ok let's take that down a notch. Homicide, you serious clark?? The fact is all of us get refueled, but if we leave the airplane unsupervised during the fueling we own any and all mistakes. It is totally on me if I let my plane get misfueled. Not the line guy, not the fbo, me. In this case it sounds like this pilot wasn't actively supervising and didn'tcatch the error. Even when ringing up the bill he didn't catch it, though that could have been an account. Simply put, we don't get to blame the line crew if we allow a misfueling. The last time I ever let that happen our jet got totally topped off, not just a wings only top off, putting us 1000's of pounds overweight. And it was our fault for doing other things in the office while the fueler was filling us up. Our fault. Not his. And that said, it was also our responsibilityto find the problem before we did anything stupid. Even if the line staff is poorly trained or inexperienced, it's still the responsibility of the PIC to make sure the airplane is fueled properly. |
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Posted: 9/4/2021 11:39:57 PM EDT
[#34]
Yes. Negligent Homicide. It’s not too much to ask a fueler to know the difference between a recip and a turboprop.
The pilot likely got complacent. There is usually more than one person to blame. We are now all quite convinced that you would never make the same mistake. However, if you stay in Aviation long enough, it’s likely that you Will eventually have your life threatened by a negligent mechanic, fueler, baggage handler or dispatcher. If you think not, then arrogance is your enemy. |
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Posted: 9/5/2021 12:22:08 AM EDT
[#35]
 RIP Dr. Greenwald. Age 59. I wonder if he was contemplating retirement? |
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Posted: 9/5/2021 10:48:56 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. Negligent Homicide. It’s not too much to ask a fueler to know the difference between a recip and a turboprop. The pilot likely got complacent. There is usually more than one person to blame. We are now all quite convinced that you would never make the same mistake. However, if you stay in Aviation long enough, it’s likely that you Will eventually have your life threatened by a negligent mechanic, fueler, baggage handler or dispatcher. If you think not, then arrogance is your enemy. Ok first the negligent homicide bit is laughable, so I’m not even going to say any more on that. Second, you don’t know how long I’ve been in aviation, or all the mishaps and mistakes I’ve seen or have been a part of, so again not going to add any more there either. You and I disagree, fair enough. However, in this particular case we are talking about GA, not 121 ops, not any maintenance factors, nothing other than a fueling at a probably typical FBO. And in a type most typical ramp guys haven’t seen before. Look up how many aero commanders have been filled with jet a as an example. Not supervising a fueling in this case is the only factor that could be called negligence, and it’s on the pilot. He watches the fueling, he’s still breathing air today. Whether you agree or not, it comes down to that. And before we start talking about baggage handlers and dispatchers, they are not involved in this case so irrelevant. In GA, if you don’t supervise your airplane at any FBO and a mistake happens, then you should’ve been there to prevent it. Yes there were mistakes made by others here, but ultimately we have to ensure our own safety and catch every issue we can before they put us in danger. This one was simple to catch, but unfortunately it wasn’t. |
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Posted: 9/5/2021 11:09:01 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Negative. The FBO fueler who put Jet-A into a recip, committed homicide, pure and simple. Yes, the pilot should have supervised fueling, but the truth is, there are many aviation related workers who demonstrate incompetence to the point of sabotage. I have seen literally Hundreds of events. No pilot can avoid them all. Pay attention to detail. 
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Posted: 9/5/2021 11:22:25 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not supervising a fueling in this case is the only factor that could be called negligence, and it’s on the pilot. Was taught that from day one and it still sticks with me. Only one time did I not watch/verify a fueling. I was in a hurry, used the john, made a call, checked weather, paid the bill, did a quick eyeball, jumped in and taxied out. As I'm doing the run-up my grandfathers words did the ole ear worm trick in my head so I turned around to go back and park. I checked everything out feeling like a dumbass the entire time, of course everything was perfectly fine, it was me who effed up by not doing what I was supposed to do. |
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Posted: 9/9/2021 8:29:19 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Was taught that from day one and it still sticks with me. Only one time did I not watch/verify a fueling. I was in a hurry, used the john, made a call, checked weather, paid the bill, did a quick eyeball, jumped in and taxied out. As I'm doing the run-up my grandfathers words did the ole ear worm trick in my head so I turned around to go back and park. I checked everything out feeling like a dumbass the entire time, of course everything was perfectly fine, it was me who effed up by not doing what I was supposed to do. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Not supervising a fueling in this case is the only factor that could be called negligence, and it’s on the pilot. Was taught that from day one and it still sticks with me. Only one time did I not watch/verify a fueling. I was in a hurry, used the john, made a call, checked weather, paid the bill, did a quick eyeball, jumped in and taxied out. As I'm doing the run-up my grandfathers words did the ole ear worm trick in my head so I turned around to go back and park. I checked everything out feeling like a dumbass the entire time, of course everything was perfectly fine, it was me who effed up by not doing what I was supposed to do. Been here and done this. In my case, I decided early on in my training that I would always sump the tanks after fueling, both to ensure I had the right fuel, and also to make sure I hadn't just pumped water into my tanks. One day after I had passed my checkride, about 130 or so hours TT, I got to be in a hurry at our local cheap fuel airport and thought "nah, it's only 10 minutes to home base". I started my taxi but by the time I got to the runup area, the second guessing was getting to me so I shut down, hopped out, and sumped the tanks. I've since solidified my commitment to myself: ALWAYS sump the tanks after fueling and allowing a couple minutes for the fuel to settle. |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 9:21:13 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ok first the negligent homicide bit is laughable, so I’m not even going to say any more on that. Second, you don’t know how long I’ve been in aviation, or all the mishaps and mistakes I’ve seen or have been a part of, so again not going to add any more there either. You and I disagree, fair enough. However, in this particular case we are talking about GA, not 121 ops, not any maintenance factors, nothing other than a fueling at a probably typical FBO. And in a type most typical ramp guys haven’t seen before. Look up how many aero commanders have been filled with jet a as an example. Not supervising a fueling in this case is the only factor that could be called negligence, and it’s on the pilot. He watches the fueling, he’s still breathing air today. Whether you agree or not, it comes down to that. And before we start talking about baggage handlers and dispatchers, they are not involved in this case so irrelevant. In GA, if you don’t supervise your airplane at any FBO and a mistake happens, then you should’ve been there to prevent it. Yes there were mistakes made by others here, but ultimately we have to ensure our own safety and catch every issue we can before they put us in danger. This one was simple to catch, but unfortunately it wasn’t. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yes. Negligent Homicide. It’s not too much to ask a fueler to know the difference between a recip and a turboprop. The pilot likely got complacent. There is usually more than one person to blame. We are now all quite convinced that you would never make the same mistake. However, if you stay in Aviation long enough, it’s likely that you Will eventually have your life threatened by a negligent mechanic, fueler, baggage handler or dispatcher. If you think not, then arrogance is your enemy. Ok first the negligent homicide bit is laughable, so I’m not even going to say any more on that. Second, you don’t know how long I’ve been in aviation, or all the mishaps and mistakes I’ve seen or have been a part of, so again not going to add any more there either. You and I disagree, fair enough. However, in this particular case we are talking about GA, not 121 ops, not any maintenance factors, nothing other than a fueling at a probably typical FBO. And in a type most typical ramp guys haven’t seen before. Look up how many aero commanders have been filled with jet a as an example. Not supervising a fueling in this case is the only factor that could be called negligence, and it’s on the pilot. He watches the fueling, he’s still breathing air today. Whether you agree or not, it comes down to that. And before we start talking about baggage handlers and dispatchers, they are not involved in this case so irrelevant. In GA, if you don’t supervise your airplane at any FBO and a mistake happens, then you should’ve been there to prevent it. Yes there were mistakes made by others here, but ultimately we have to ensure our own safety and catch every issue we can before they put us in danger. This one was simple to catch, but unfortunately it wasn’t. I've been in aviation a long time too. One of my jobs as a late teen was being a fueler at a local airport. Most pilot's didn't watch me fuel their planes. I was taught (and tested) from day one that it was a requirement for the fuel cap (or adjacent to the fuel cap) there's got to be a placard of the type and quantity of fuel that went in the tank. If that placard was missing or unreadable then we were required to confer with the pilot what kind of fuel we were to use. Didn't matter if it was obvious because it was a Cessna 172 or even if the other wing's placard was still intact. For every tank that was gonna receive fuel, it had to have a placard with fuel type and quantity. I want to know if that guy's fuel cap placard was intact. Because if it was, the fueler certainly bears much of the responsibility here. It's common that FBOs will pull a plane out of a hangar and fuel it before the pilot has even stepped foot on property. If you're trained, you should be able to accomplish this job properly and safely without damaging a plane. It's absolutely basic. Eta: this is another dead giveaway that the fueler is a poorly trained moron: "Jet fuel nozzles are shaped differently from nozzles for standard aviation fuel but the employee told investigators he was able to fill the Aerostar with 163 gallons by positioning the nozzle at certain angles." He had to work hard to overcome how idiot-proof these fuel nozzle/tank designs are. |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 10:17:11 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They could have filled the tanks with Lime Jello for all I care... The end result was caused by multiple failures of the pilot. Beginning with failure to read his fuel ticket? But FBO boy bothers me. The JetA nozzle didn't fit the avgas tank, but I made it work, sort of, and got her filled. |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 10:22:53 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: John Denver decided against topping of his tanks as he was only going to practice touch and go landings, it cost him his life. I've had people chew me out for saying that, but he took off without much fuel in the tank that was turned on, and with a cobbled mess of switchover hardware (Vice Grips???). Somebody begged to gas it up for him, and no, I'm having the fuel system replumbed properly ASAP, don't want to buy a bunch of gas that'll get drained and thrown away in a few days. If he'd had enough fuel in the tank that was in use for his planned flight plus an hour, he could have buzzed Eastwood's house all he wanted without a hiccup. |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 10:42:25 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been in aviation a long time too. One of my jobs as a late teen was being a fueler at a local airport. Most pilot's didn't watch me fuel their planes. I was taught (and tested) from day one that it was a requirement for the fuel cap (or adjacent to the fuel cap) there's got to be a placard of the type and quantity of fuel that went in the tank. If that placard was missing or unreadable then we were required to confer with the pilot what kind of fuel we were to use. Didn't matter if it was obvious because it was a Cessna 172 or even if the other wing's placard was still intact. For every tank that was gonna receive fuel, it had to have a placard with fuel type and quantity. I want to know if that guy's fuel cap placard was intact. Because if it was, the fueler certainly bears much of the responsibility here. It's common that FBOs will pull a plane out of a hangar and fuel it before the pilot has even stepped foot on property. If you're trained, you should be able to accomplish this job properly and safely without damaging a plane. It's absolutely basic. Eta: this is another dead giveaway that the fueler is a poorly trained moron: "Jet fuel nozzles are shaped differently from nozzles for standard aviation fuel but the employee told investigators he was able to fill the Aerostar with 163 gallons by positioning the nozzle at certain angles." He had to work hard to overcome how idiot-proof these fuel nozzle/tank designs are. All of us who fly and have worked line in the past, should know better than anyone to never, ever, trust a FBO or line guy. And because of every reason you posted here, the pilot should always supervise the fueling. I just had an issue a couple days ago actually. Single point jet with a refueling panel that needs to be set correctly. I asked the fueler for 400 gal, and then told him that I would set the panel. He then thought that me saying "I will set the panel" meant "pump until it stops," even though I literally just said 400 gals. So of course it went a few over before I realized he wasn't going to stop pumping at 400. Point being is that mistakes will happen more often than not, and it is on us to catch them. Especially so with anything 100LL, there are just too many ways to screw that up. BTW the worst mistake I ever saw a line guy do to a small plane during a fueling is really unbelievable. He went to fuel what I think was a Mooney, and didn't know where the fuel cap was. So instead of ask, he found a round inspection panel the size of a fuel cap, removed it, and pumped all the fuel into a non fuel area of the wing. The fuel seeped into the cabin, and soaked the interior and was seeping out of the rivets on the underside of the airplane. The pilot had to pull out all the carpet, seat cushions etc, to try to dry them out from all the fuel, and there was a huge fire risk. And this was at a super busy major FBO even. Always supervise your fueling! |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 11:02:02 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Negative He crashed a perfectly good airplane that had enough fuel for the flight. He crashed primarily due to poor piloting along with unfamiliarity with the aircraft. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: John Denver decided against topping of his tanks as he was only going to practice touch and go landings, it cost him his life. Negative He crashed a perfectly good airplane that had enough fuel for the flight. He crashed primarily due to poor piloting along with unfamiliarity with the aircraft. |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 11:16:51 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been in aviation a long time too. One of my jobs as a late teen was being a fueler at a local airport. Most pilot's didn't watch me fuel their planes. I was taught (and tested) from day one that it was a requirement for the fuel cap (or adjacent to the fuel cap) there's got to be a placard of the type and quantity of fuel that went in the tank. If that placard was missing or unreadable then we were required to confer with the pilot what kind of fuel we were to use. Didn't matter if it was obvious because it was a Cessna 172 or even if the other wing's placard was still intact. For every tank that was gonna receive fuel, it had to have a placard with fuel type and quantity. I want to know if that guy's fuel cap placard was intact. Because if it was, the fueler certainly bears much of the responsibility here. It's common that FBOs will pull a plane out of a hangar and fuel it before the pilot has even stepped foot on property. If you're trained, you should be able to accomplish this job properly and safely without damaging a plane. It's absolutely basic. Eta: this is another dead giveaway that the fueler is a poorly trained moron: "Jet fuel nozzles are shaped differently from nozzles for standard aviation fuel but the employee told investigators he was able to fill the Aerostar with 163 gallons by positioning the nozzle at certain angles." He had to work hard to overcome how idiot-proof these fuel nozzle/tank designs are. This came up in discussion at his memorial at KTPF. The line guys were in attendance and they knew the accident airplane. In discussion they said the placards were the ones that look like bumper stickers that indicated 100LL only. |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 11:21:07 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All of us who fly and have worked line in the past, should know better than anyone to never, ever, trust a FBO or line guy. And because of every reason you posted here, the pilot should always supervise the fueling. I just had an issue a couple days ago actually. Single point jet with a refueling panel that needs to be set correctly. I asked the fueler for 400 gal, and then told him that I would set the panel. He then thought that me saying "I will set the panel" meant "pump until it stops," even though I literally just said 400 gals. So of course it went a few over before I realized he wasn't going to stop pumping at 400. Point being is that mistakes will happen more often than not, and it is on us to catch them. Especially so with anything 100LL, there are just too many ways to screw that up. BTW the worst mistake I ever saw a line guy do to a small plane during a fueling is really unbelievable. He went to fuel what I think was a Mooney, and didn't know where the fuel cap was. So instead of ask, he found a round inspection panel the size of a fuel cap, removed it, and pumped all the fuel into a non fuel area of the wing. The fuel seeped into the cabin, and soaked the interior and was seeping out of the rivets on the underside of the airplane. The pilot had to pull out all the carpet, seat cushions etc, to try to dry them out from all the fuel, and there was a huge fire risk. And this was at a super busy major FBO even. Always supervise your fueling! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've been in aviation a long time too. One of my jobs as a late teen was being a fueler at a local airport. Most pilot's didn't watch me fuel their planes. I was taught (and tested) from day one that it was a requirement for the fuel cap (or adjacent to the fuel cap) there's got to be a placard of the type and quantity of fuel that went in the tank. If that placard was missing or unreadable then we were required to confer with the pilot what kind of fuel we were to use. Didn't matter if it was obvious because it was a Cessna 172 or even if the other wing's placard was still intact. For every tank that was gonna receive fuel, it had to have a placard with fuel type and quantity. I want to know if that guy's fuel cap placard was intact. Because if it was, the fueler certainly bears much of the responsibility here. It's common that FBOs will pull a plane out of a hangar and fuel it before the pilot has even stepped foot on property. If you're trained, you should be able to accomplish this job properly and safely without damaging a plane. It's absolutely basic. Eta: this is another dead giveaway that the fueler is a poorly trained moron: "Jet fuel nozzles are shaped differently from nozzles for standard aviation fuel but the employee told investigators he was able to fill the Aerostar with 163 gallons by positioning the nozzle at certain angles." He had to work hard to overcome how idiot-proof these fuel nozzle/tank designs are. All of us who fly and have worked line in the past, should know better than anyone to never, ever, trust a FBO or line guy. And because of every reason you posted here, the pilot should always supervise the fueling. I just had an issue a couple days ago actually. Single point jet with a refueling panel that needs to be set correctly. I asked the fueler for 400 gal, and then told him that I would set the panel. He then thought that me saying "I will set the panel" meant "pump until it stops," even though I literally just said 400 gals. So of course it went a few over before I realized he wasn't going to stop pumping at 400. Point being is that mistakes will happen more often than not, and it is on us to catch them. Especially so with anything 100LL, there are just too many ways to screw that up. BTW the worst mistake I ever saw a line guy do to a small plane during a fueling is really unbelievable. He went to fuel what I think was a Mooney, and didn't know where the fuel cap was. So instead of ask, he found a round inspection panel the size of a fuel cap, removed it, and pumped all the fuel into a non fuel area of the wing. The fuel seeped into the cabin, and soaked the interior and was seeping out of the rivets on the underside of the airplane. The pilot had to pull out all the carpet, seat cushions etc, to try to dry them out from all the fuel, and there was a huge fire risk. And this was at a super busy major FBO even. Always supervise your fueling! I don't disagree with that. Obviously, viewing the fueler is the best safest practice. But it's not a law. And not being there doesn't alleviate the obligation of the fueler to not be a dumbass. Every FBO that sells fuel has to have an approved fuel handling program submitted to and approved by the FAA. Part of the program involves the initial and continuing training of fuelers. It's required by the FBO to retain copies of the fuelers training program and whether or not that fueler passed. I vaguely recall my fueler's test was a combination of written test as well as oral combined with a practical test of demonstrated ability and we only sold 100LL. I can promise you that if the FBO followed their FAA approved fueling program guidelines as it pertained to training that fueler, then that fueler had to demonstrate knowledge in checking gas caps for proper fuel type. Either the FBO violated their training program or the fueler violated his training. There is no legal requirement for a pilot to monitor fueling operations. But I agree it's the best practice. |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 4:12:10 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have probably personally fuelled over 300,000 gallons of diesel, gasoline, DEF, etc. It's hard to screw up at a truck stop because of diesel and DEF sequencing. When I fill up my personal pickup with diesel, however, I double double triple-check. Diesel pump, diesel nozzle, etc. When I (only rarely) have to add DEF I do the same thing. I don't know what was going on with the airport fueler, but damn. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Local Race Trac gas station has the DEF and Diesel nozzle right next to each other. When I had my diesel I would not use them. I have probably personally fuelled over 300,000 gallons of diesel, gasoline, DEF, etc. It's hard to screw up at a truck stop because of diesel and DEF sequencing. When I fill up my personal pickup with diesel, however, I double double triple-check. Diesel pump, diesel nozzle, etc. When I (only rarely) have to add DEF I do the same thing. I don't know what was going on with the airport fueler, but damn. I have direct knowledge of a female CFI,CFII,MEI,ATP who put 100LL in a Diamond DA40 NG that has the AE300 engine in it which is Jet-A. She got it to start but then didn't recognize what was happening until it was too late and she absolutely demolished an engine with a student in the left seat. People fuck shit up all the time. |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 4:32:10 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. Negligent Homicide. It’s not too much to ask a fueler to know the difference between a recip and a turboprop. The pilot likely got complacent. There is usually more than one person to blame. We are now all quite convinced that you would never make the same mistake. However, if you stay in Aviation long enough, it’s likely that you Will eventually have your life threatened by a negligent mechanic, fueler, baggage handler or dispatcher. If you think not, then arrogance is your enemy. You forgot pilot. I see you guys absolutely do the hands down dumbest shit on the planet *FAR* exceeding that of any other member of the aviation community. The pic is proof. I'll buy you a year membership if you can correctly identify why this aircraft crashed with this ONE picture:  Attached FileAnother guy weighed about 200 pounds too many for the aircraft he was trying to take off in and it was 99 degrees and about 90% humidity and the gas for the engine? It was car gas that had sat in his hangar for eight months in a plastic gas can. The engine for the plane came out of a Geo Metro and was a 3 banger. Or the guy that I am going after right now who threw a handful of pocket change out of the spit window onto a mall parking lot full of cars. And everyone knows about the charter guy in Alaska who didn't do his weight and balance only to try to take off way overloaded and with his CG far rearward out of the envelope in a plane with floats. He never made it off the water, crashed, and killed 4 people but he survived. He should be in jail for negligent homicide, but compliance action and now the guy gives speeches. So while *I* might agree with you that stupid people are constantly trying to get you killed, you don't do stupid people justice by excluding pilots. |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 4:32:50 PM EDT
[#49]
I still think the idea that I floated above that the pilot in question exploited the presence of this incredibly ignorant line person to do himself in in a way that would not inhibit insurance payouts is interesting. Borrowed aircraft, seemingly without the owner knowing. An aircraft known to be susceptible to fueling mistakes. A highly accomplished pilot who is unlikely to make such a mistake. The mysterious story by the fueler about how the pilot specifically indicated Jet-A as the desired fuel. And the intrepid, eager to please, but hopelessly ignorant fueler making it happen even in the face of mismatched nozzles and fueling ports.
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Posted: 9/14/2021 6:51:57 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You forgot pilot. I see you guys absolutely do the hands down dumbest shit on the planet *FAR* exceeding that of any other member of the aviation community. The pic is proof. I'll buy you a year membership if you can correctly identify why this aircraft crashed with this ONE picture: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/66115/20201116_121233_jpg-2090650.JPG Another guy weighed about 200 pounds too many for the aircraft he was trying to take off in and it was 99 degrees and about 90% humidity and the gas for the engine? It was car gas that had sat in his hangar for eight months in a plastic gas can. The engine for the plane came out of a Geo Metro and was a 3 banger. Or the guy that I am going after right now who threw a handful of pocket change out of the spit window onto a mall parking lot full of cars. And everyone knows about the charter guy in Alaska who didn't do his weight and balance only to try to take off way overloaded and with his CG far rearward out of the envelope in a plane with floats. He never made it off the water, crashed, and killed 4 people but he survived. He should be in jail for negligent homicide, but compliance action and now the guy gives speeches. So while *I* might agree with you that stupid people are constantly trying to get you killed, you don't do stupid people justice by excluding pilots. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yes. Negligent Homicide. It’s not too much to ask a fueler to know the difference between a recip and a turboprop. The pilot likely got complacent. There is usually more than one person to blame. We are now all quite convinced that you would never make the same mistake. However, if you stay in Aviation long enough, it’s likely that you Will eventually have your life threatened by a negligent mechanic, fueler, baggage handler or dispatcher. If you think not, then arrogance is your enemy. You forgot pilot. I see you guys absolutely do the hands down dumbest shit on the planet *FAR* exceeding that of any other member of the aviation community. The pic is proof. I'll buy you a year membership if you can correctly identify why this aircraft crashed with this ONE picture: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/66115/20201116_121233_jpg-2090650.JPG Another guy weighed about 200 pounds too many for the aircraft he was trying to take off in and it was 99 degrees and about 90% humidity and the gas for the engine? It was car gas that had sat in his hangar for eight months in a plastic gas can. The engine for the plane came out of a Geo Metro and was a 3 banger. Or the guy that I am going after right now who threw a handful of pocket change out of the spit window onto a mall parking lot full of cars. And everyone knows about the charter guy in Alaska who didn't do his weight and balance only to try to take off way overloaded and with his CG far rearward out of the envelope in a plane with floats. He never made it off the water, crashed, and killed 4 people but he survived. He should be in jail for negligent homicide, but compliance action and now the guy gives speeches. So while *I* might agree with you that stupid people are constantly trying to get you killed, you don't do stupid people justice by excluding pilots. I don't think anybody is arguing that pilots aren't capable of doing stupid shit. They absolutely are. Typically the stories of stupid pilot's are the most entertaining of all. I've got some serious doozies I witnessed first-hand from my time in Alaska. We're just not talking about those cases here. We're talking about this case, where it was the fueler that fucked up. Was it a fuck up on the pilot's part to not watch the refueling? I'd say the fact that he's dead is evidence enough of that. But you shouldn't have to babysit people when they're doing really simple jobs. Should pilot's have to babysit mechanics when they change the oil to make sure they secure the safety wire in a "Z" instead of an "S"? Or should we be able to trust people upon occasion to competently perform a simple job they were trained to do? Nonetheless, history has proven that if you want to survive aviation then you have to take control of as many of those things that can kill you as possible. The world is full of dumbasses, but being a dumbass won't serve as a legal excuse to get you out of the trouble you cause. Here's a question I haven't heard asked or answered yet. If the pilot didn't witness the refueling, did he at least sump the tanks and look at it? I used to snicker at pilot's that would sump a tank then hold the sample up to the blue sky and think, "yup, looks blue." With that method it'd have to be engine oil or hydraulic fluid before they'd notice the color was off. |
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