World class scientists join in fight to prove the Earth is merely thousands of years old - Page 3

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - World class scientists join in fight to prove the Earth is merely thousands of years old (Page 3 of 8)

Posted: 12/16/2018 4:03:12 AM EDT

[#1]

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I obviously strongly dissagree with your interpretation, but what do you believed happened during that time period of those days?

I agree with you that this is not a necessary doctrine for salvation. Although I do believe it is important because it is a hit on the inerrancy of scripture.

Repentance and Faith

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Umm, no. Not at all what I’m saying.

I believe he created it in 7 days, just don’t think those were “our” days. Especially, IMO, the evidence I laid out in the previous post.

It clearly says he had already created many other celestial objects, why is it so bad to believe that he may be referencing one of those instead of the would he would create for us on the fourth day?

It’s not necessary to know exactly what he’s saying anyway, it’s not part of the plan of salvation, which, for Christians, is in the New Testament.

We probably wouldn’t agree on that either, salvation, not where it’s located.

I obviously strongly dissagree with your interpretation, but what do you believed happened during that time period of those days?

I agree with you that this is not a necessary doctrine for salvation. Although I do believe it is important because it is a hit on the inerrancy of scripture.

Repentance and Faith

I’m not sure I’m understanding the question. What happened in the “long” days? The same thing that happened in the “short” days, he worked. Either it was a day like ours, 24 hours, or it was much longer. Either way the same thing was happening, one version just took longer, that is to say, compared to our 24 hour day. Hopefully that was what you’re asking, and I hope that I answered clearly, apologies in advance if either is not the case. I truly am beat, I’ll check back tomorrow, hopefully the thread won’t go the way almost every GD religion thread goes and gets locked. It’s been civil so far. If it gets locked y’all feel free to PM me if you want to continue the convo.

Belief/Faith, Repentance, Baptism, infilling of his spirit. The pattern is there in the gospels, Jews first, then Gentiles, same answer and result was given for both.

You have to believe first, like the man asked “I believe, what shall I do to be saved?”. He had faith first, then was baptized, “faith without works (action) is dead”, he believed what the apostle told him, he was a sinner lost without God. Response was “repentance, baptism, which they did in the name of Jesus, and was filled with the spirit. Happenened over and over, same plan.

Posted: 12/16/2018 4:05:53 AM EDT

[#2]

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You're talking about "micro evolution" and "macro evolution" like they're two separate processes, which goes back to me saying you misunderstand the science you're trying to discount.

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You believe they are the same, but you don’t know that because it’s not provable. You saying I “misunderstand it” and it’s a “trick” is a way for you to dismiss the possibility that they are two distinct processes.

Micro evolution/adaptation is provable. It’s repeatable and observable. There is nothing repeatable or observable about macro species to species evolution. We have never observed one species changing into another species. We have fossils that show many different species, some similar to the ones we have today, some very different. We make the assumptions that many of those species in the fossil record that are no longer here are transitional forms. The problem is there is no way to difinitively prove that. It’s science’s best assumption and theory. Those transitional forms could also possibly be seperate sub species that just went extinct, just like animals regularly go extinct today.

Posted: 12/16/2018 4:09:30 AM EDT

[#3]

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It's a real shame so few Christians bother to actually study scripture. The Bible doesn't say how old the earth is, but the implication is millions if not billions of years old. All the scientists have done is confirm what many if not most rabbis have been saying for eons. Even the early church fathers like Irenaeus believed in an old earth. I'm not sure when young earthers snuck into the faith, but it has done irrevocable harm to Christianity as a valid belief system.

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Thank you for pointing it out. I hate how some here assume all believers believe the earth is 5000 years old.

the Bible was written by men and explained in a way they best understood it at the time.

Posted: 12/16/2018 4:12:38 AM EDT

[#4]

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They are most definitely at odds with each other. Either the Bible is wrong and evolution is right, or it’s the opposite.

Adam was created from dust and God breathed air in his lungs.

There was no death on the earth before Adam and Eve sinned. No human or animal had ever died. The Bible is clear about that. Evolution is impossible without death.

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I would argue that Evolition and the teachings of the Bible are not mutually exclusive.

How can anyone claim to understand the mechanism by which God creates living things? Why couldn't it be true that God makes small changes over time to constantly perfect his creations? Of course you could argue that he would have gotten it all right the first time but nature is wrought with imperfection. Maybe adaptation in pursuit of perfection is a fun way for God to spend infinity.

Yes, I'm playing devil's advocate but really think about it. The two ideas don't have to be at odds with one another.

They are most definitely at odds with each other. Either the Bible is wrong and evolution is right, or it’s the opposite.

Adam was created from dust and God breathed air in his lungs.

There was no death on the earth before Adam and Eve sinned. No human or animal had ever died. The Bible is clear about that. Evolution is impossible without death.

What if God created evolution? Meaning, the things God created have the ability to adapt, change? I don’t see a contradiction with scripture there. What if science is right about almost everything, primordial ooze being the exception? Science is re-written a lot, not nearly as much as the past century, but who’s to say we’re not wrong about something that happened eons ago? To state for a fact that science knows exactly how and when everything happened takes as much faith as a belief in God.

He created life, with the ability to adapt.

Posted: 12/16/2018 4:14:56 AM EDT

[#5]

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You are correct that animals don’t sin, but when sin and death through sin entered into the world that’s when animals started dying. The Bible says that carnivores ate grass prior to the fall of man. They didn’t kill each other, and were no threat to kill Adam and Eve.

Corruption is what causes death. It’s what causes our bodies to get old and die, to get cancer etc. Adam and Eve would have lived forever if they hadn’t sinned because their bodies were perfect and without corruption. With no sin in the world animals would also not have gotten old and died. And they weren’t eating each other.

I know you believe there is proof that animals died prior to man.

I’m not debating here to convince evolutionists, I’m just trying to make the point that if you are an old earth evolutionist you do NOT believe in the scriptures.

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Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

You've already agreed that sin is only in humans as the above scripture states; and it says that death passed upon all men. It doesn't mention anything about the animals.

If you agree that the animals are without sin, then why do they die?

The answer is obvious: The have always died, as they were not made to live in perfection (and in god's image) as humans were.

I do not believe in evolution, but there are proofs in science that cannot be refuted.

Those proofs do not invalidate the bible or the creation account in any way.

ETA: Another example of this is "the Big Bang".

There's all kinds of debates about this between creationists and evolutionists.

Does the bible say that the universe had a beginning?

Yes...everyone would agree that it does.

There is scientific proof that the expansion of space had a beginning about 13.8 billion years ago.

In 1949 Fred Hoyle said "Big Bang", but he could've just as easily called it "the beginning".

Posted: 12/16/2018 4:18:34 AM EDT

[#6]

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Mhmm. A letter written thousands of years after the creation story trying to scare people into belief by implying that they are living in the end of days.

“Jesus is coming any day now.... of course a day could be a thousand years to God, so nobody knows when he’s goong to actually show up, so you’d better be good!”

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Another point...

Has god rested from his creative works for one 24-hr day?

No. The last thing he made was Eve.

We have been in that "day" of creative rest now for thousands of years.

Anyone who reads the bible should be able to understand this.

How is thousands of years a “day” in any stretch of the word?

How would the people writing the text know that a “day” would mean thousands of years, and why would they choose to describe it that way?

There’s a scripture that says “A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day.”, 2 Peter 3:8. Meaning either his days are much longer than ours, his days are without compare, millennia, or perhaps even timeless.

Mhmm. A letter written thousands of years after the creation story trying to scare people into belief by implying that they are living in the end of days.

“Jesus is coming any day now.... of course a day could be a thousand years to God, so nobody knows when he’s goong to actually show up, so you’d better be good!”

The length of days being discussed here are the days, specifically, when creation was taking place, not as it relates to us now, ie, anything after, or especially, in the New Testament, that’s all laid out pretty clearly.

Posted: 12/16/2018 4:20:14 AM EDT

[#7]

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What if God created evolution? Meaning, the things God created have the ability to adapt, change? I don’t see a contradiction with scripture there. What if science is right about almost everything, primordial ooze being the exception? Science is re-written a lot, not nearly as much as the past century, but who’s to say we’re not wrong about something that happened eons ago? To state for a fact that science knows exactly how and when everything happened takes as much faith as a belief in God.

He created life, with the ability to adapt.

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That’s the whole problem. There are VERY clear contradictions to scripture with evolution. Scripture cannot be correct and evolution be correct. One is wrong, and we all need to quite trying to ride the fence and decide which we believe.

Posted: 12/16/2018 4:27:20 AM EDT

[#8]

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Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

You've already agreed that sin is only in humans as the above scripture states; and it says that death passed upon all men. It doesn't mention anything about the animals.

If you agree that the animals are without sin, then why do they die?

The answer is obvious: The have always died, as they were not made to live in perfection (and in god's image) as humans were.

I do not believe in evolution, but there are proofs in science that cannot be refuted.

Those proofs do not invalidate the bible or the creation account in any way.

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What causes the animals to die? They didn’t eat each other and prior to sin all of creation was “perfect.” Animals would not have died from old age with perfect bodies that had not been spotted by the corruption that entered the world through sin.

When you get time read through this, it answers almost every question you have asked.
https://answersingenesis.org/death-before-sin/biblically-could-death-have-existed-before-sin/

Posted: 12/16/2018 4:31:33 AM EDT

[#9]

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Thank you for pointing it out. I hate how some here assume all believers believe the earth is 5000 years old.

the Bible was written by men and explained in a way they best understood it at the time.

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It's a real shame so few Christians bother to actually study scripture. The Bible doesn't say how old the earth is, but the implication is millions if not billions of years old. All the scientists have done is confirm what many if not most rabbis have been saying for eons. Even the early church fathers like Irenaeus believed in an old earth. I'm not sure when young earthers snuck into the faith, but it has done irrevocable harm to Christianity as a valid belief system.

Thank you for pointing it out. I hate how some here assume all believers believe the earth is 5000 years old.

the Bible was written by men and explained in a way they best understood it at the time.

I had an agnostic physicist on this website years ago explain it to me this way; stated that the earth according to the current scientific method showed a world billions of years old.

However, he said, if God is existent and science is more correct than even we might expect, then it is God who has made the earth to look very old, if it is actually the case that it is young, and only a mere few thousand years old.

And why should an upright and honest God do such a thing as that?
The Bible states that God in His righteousness cannot tell a lie, yet it also states that it is a requirement of kings to investigate a matter of the current unknown.

Posted: 12/16/2018 4:49:40 AM EDT

[#10]

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They didn’t eat each other

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Why do animals eat each other now?

Because sin exists in the world?

No.

God has programmed them by instinct to eat each other, and they did so before the creation of humans

There is irrefutable scientific evidence of this.

Posted: 12/16/2018 4:50:10 AM EDT

[#11]

I believe in God. I believe in the Bible.
I also believe the earth is millions of years old.
I believe that God uses the natural laws he established to create the earth.
We witness God creating things daily. It is truly amazing.

Some people get hung up on 2 Peter 3:8 - one day to God is as 1000 years to man. It simply means a long time and establishes that God’s time is measured differently than man. Just like Matthew 18:21-22 (we should forgive seven times seventy) which means a lot and implies always, and the expression “40 days and 40 nights” (the time it rained in the account of Noah, and the amount of time Christ fasted) - it simply means a long time.

These are not exact time references, they are idiomatic expressions and are very common in Hebrew. Science and Christian doctrine are not contradictory, they are complimentary.

ETA - it is unfortunate that some otherwise intelligent Christians try to shoehorn science into literal interpretations of the Bible. The Hebrew language is not literal. It uses numerous linguistic constructs and the older written texts are very poetic. The creation of the earth did not happen in 7 days as we measure time, and it didn’t happen in just 7,000 years. God surely created it though using the same natural processes he has with all of his creations. Hebrews 13:8 - God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Posted: 12/16/2018 4:52:01 AM EDT

[#12]

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Why do animals eat each other now?

Because sin exists in the world?

No.

God has programmed them by instinct to eat each other, and they did so before the creation of humans

There is irrefutable scientific evidence of this.

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They didn’t eat each other

Why do animals eat each other now?

Because sin exists in the world?

No.

God has programmed them by instinct to eat each other, and they did so before the creation of humans

There is irrefutable scientific evidence of this.

Does anyone truly believe that the master plan of God according to the entire history of the world did not include man's falling?
I believe that the Scriptures may support this view.

Posted: 12/16/2018 4:53:17 AM EDT

[#13]

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I had an agnostic physicist on this website years ago explain it to me this way; stated that the earth according to the current scientific method showed a world billion of years old.

However, he said, if God is existent and science is more correct than even we might expect, then it is God who has made the earth to look very old, if it is actually the case that it is young, and only a mere few thousand years old.

And why should an upright and honest God do such a thing as that?
The Bible states that God in His righteousness cannot tell a lie, yet it also states that it is a requirement of kings to investigate a matter of the current unknown.

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Ok, here’s a few things to think about.

1. God made a mature creation.

When God created Adam and Eve he didn’t create them as newborn infants and wait for them to grow up. He created them as adults.

Likewise when God made trees, If you were to cut a tree down on creation day plus one you would look at the rings on that full grown tree and say that tree must be x number of years old. But in fact it was one day old. He made trees, mountains, grass, etc. mature at creation.

I would contend that if you were to date anything the day after creation it would appear to be much older than it was based on the way we understand things to work now.

2. Carbon/radiological dating.

All of the dating we do uses massive assumptions. How do we know that the rate of decay in objects has always been the same? (We don’t.)

Not to mention numerous examples of erroneous dating. There was dating done on rocks formed by the mt st Helen eruption that dated to thousands of years old, but we know for a fact were only about 10 years old at the time of dating. Extrapolate those errors out over a few thousand of years and with a mature earth at creation and the margin for error is millions of years.

3. Fossil record

Science has always maintained that the fossil record of layers upon layers of different fossils and sediments and rocks all over the earth prove an old earth and provide evidence of species to species evolution.

Most will dismiss this out of hand but if you study the processes that would have happened during a global flood like the one in genesis it is completely possible for all of that to be explained by the flood.

Posted: 12/16/2018 4:56:53 AM EDT

[#14]

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Does anyone truly believe that the master plan of God according to the entire history of the world did not include man's falling?
I believe that the Scriptures may support this view.

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James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death".

Posted: 12/16/2018 4:58:09 AM EDT

[#15]

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Why do animals eat each other now?

Because sin exists in the world?

No.

God has programmed them by instinct to eat each other, and they did so before the creation of humans

There is irrefutable scientific evidence of this.

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Yes because of sin. If you believe the scriptures then you are wrong.

When Christ comes back and establishes his kingdom on earth there will once again be no sin on the earth. What do the animals do at that point? Once again they don’t eat each other. They all become vegetarians again, just like they were before sin entered into the world. Isaiah 11:6.

I’m not arguing with you about what science says on it, i’m arguing with you about what scripture says, you can pick which one you want to believe.

Posted: 12/16/2018 4:58:55 AM EDT

[#16]

One of the greatest aspects of science is it’s ability to continually reveal the boundless wonders of God’s creation, if we continue to seek truth and understanding. God blessed us with intelligent, rational minds. One of my favorite little snippets from the Bible is when Jesus says, “Come, let us reason together...” I believe God wants us to continually pursue greater understanding of Him, and all that He has made.

Believing in the old Earth, evolution, etc. does not make me believe less. On the contrary, it increases my appreciation for and awe of the limitless creativity of God in everything He does.

Posted: 12/16/2018 5:04:35 AM EDT

[#17]

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Ok, here’s a few things to think about.

1. God made a mature creation.

When God created Adam and Eve he didn’t create them as newborn infants and wait for them to grow up. He created them as adults.

Likewise when God made trees, If you were to cut a tree down on creation day plus one you would look at the rings on that full grown tree and say that tree must be x number of years old. But in fact it was one day old. He made trees, mountains, grass, etc. mature at creation.

I would contend that if you were to date anything the day after creation it would appear to be much older than it was based on the way we understand things to work now.

2. Carbon/radiological dating.

All of the dating we do uses massive assumptions. How do we know that the rate of decay in objects has always been the same? (We don’t.)

Not to mention numerous examples of erroneous dating. There was dating done on rocks formed by the mt st Helen eruption that dated to thousands of years old, but we know for a fact were only about 10 years old at the time of dating. Extrapolate those errors out over a few thousand of years and with a mature earth at creation and the margin for error is millions of years.

3. Fossil record

Science has always maintained that the fossil record of layers upon layers of different fossils and sediments and rocks all over the earth prove an old earth and provide evidence of species to species evolution.

Most will dismiss this out of hand but if you study the processes that would have happened during a global flood like the one in genesis it is completely possible for all of that to be explained by the flood.

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I had an agnostic physicist on this website years ago explain it to me this way; stated that the earth according to the current scientific method showed a world billion of years old.

However, he said, if God is existent and science is more correct than even we might expect, then it is God who has made the earth to look very old, if it is actually the case that it is young, and only a mere few thousand years old.

And why should an upright and honest God do such a thing as that?
The Bible states that God in His righteousness cannot tell a lie, yet it also states that it is a requirement of kings to investigate a matter of the current unknown.

Ok, here’s a few things to think about.

1. God made a mature creation.

When God created Adam and Eve he didn’t create them as newborn infants and wait for them to grow up. He created them as adults.

Likewise when God made trees, If you were to cut a tree down on creation day plus one you would look at the rings on that full grown tree and say that tree must be x number of years old. But in fact it was one day old. He made trees, mountains, grass, etc. mature at creation.

I would contend that if you were to date anything the day after creation it would appear to be much older than it was based on the way we understand things to work now.

2. Carbon/radiological dating.

All of the dating we do uses massive assumptions. How do we know that the rate of decay in objects has always been the same? (We don’t.)

Not to mention numerous examples of erroneous dating. There was dating done on rocks formed by the mt st Helen eruption that dated to thousands of years old, but we know for a fact were only about 10 years old at the time of dating. Extrapolate those errors out over a few thousand of years and with a mature earth at creation and the margin for error is millions of years.

3. Fossil record

Science has always maintained that the fossil record of layers upon layers of different fossils and sediments and rocks all over the earth prove an old earth and provide evidence of species to species evolution.

Most will dismiss this out of hand but if you study the processes that would have happened during a global flood like the one in genesis it is completely possible for all of that to be explained by the flood.

Okay then.
But where is the scientific evidence right now, in favor of a universal flood in the world at any time?

I believe that there is some scientific evidence currently, which points to regional floods and some of them if not the same one as an absolute rapid and violent surge and deluge of fresh and salt water.

But as of yet, no real scientific evidence of the deluge of Noah's day and what came after.
Or, this is what a significant part of the secular scientific community claims at this time.

Posted: 12/16/2018 5:04:54 AM EDT

[#18]

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I’m not arguing with you about what science says on it, i’m arguing with you about what scripture says, you can pick which one you want to believe.

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I haven't considered this an argument at all...I think it's been a good discussion.

For now, we'll agree to disagree.

Posted: 12/16/2018 5:06:18 AM EDT

[#19]

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One of the greatest aspects of science is it’s ability to continually reveal the boundless wonders of God’s creation, if we continue to seek truth and understanding. God blessed us with intelligent, rational minds. One of my favorite little snippets from the Bible is when Jesus says, “Come, let us reason together...” I believe God wants us to continually pursue greater understanding of Him, and all that He has made.

Believing in the old Earth, evolution, etc. does not make me believe less. On the contrary, it increases my appreciation for and awe of the limitless creativity of God in everything He does.

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Excellent. Very well put.

Posted: 12/16/2018 5:10:02 AM EDT

[#20]

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Excellent. Very well put.

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One of the greatest aspects of science is it’s ability to continually reveal the boundless wonders of God’s creation, if we continue to seek truth and understanding. God blessed us with intelligent, rational minds. One of my favorite little snippets from the Bible is when Jesus says, “Come, let us reason together...” I believe God wants us to continually pursue greater understanding of Him, and all that He has made.

Believing in the old Earth, evolution, etc. does not make me believe less. On the contrary, it increases my appreciation for and awe of the limitless creativity of God in everything He does.

Excellent. Very well put.

King Solomon once professed that it is God who accomplishes things in order for us to be in awe of Him.
That this was His will for us to experience.

Great post.

Posted: 12/16/2018 5:13:16 AM EDT

[#21]

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Okay then.
But where is the scientific evidence right now, in favor of a universal flood in the world?

I believe that there is some scientific evidence currently which points to regional floods and some of them if not the same one an absolute rapid and violent surge and deluge of fresh and salt water.

But as of yet, no real scientific evidence of the deluge of Noah's day and what came after.
Or, this is what a significant part of the secular scientific community claims at this time.

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You can find fossils of sea animals on almost every continent. Places where as far as we know water has never been other than finding those fossils. Also, the same layers of soil and fossils that scientist use to confirm an old earth could also be scientific evidence of rapid massive layers of soil laid down by surging seas during the flood and animals being killed and trapped in those sediments during the flood.

Posted: 12/16/2018 5:18:06 AM EDT

[#22]

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Yes because of sin. If you believe the scriptures then you are wrong.

When Christ comes back and establishes his kingdom on earth there will once again be no sin on the earth. What do the animals do at that point? Once again they don’t eat each other. They all become vegetarians again, just like they were before sin entered into the world. Isaiah 11:6.

I’m not arguing with you about what science says on it, i’m arguing with you about what scripture says, you can pick which one you want to believe.

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Why do animals eat each other now?

Because sin exists in the world?

No.

God has programmed them by instinct to eat each other, and they did so before the creation of humans

There is irrefutable scientific evidence of this.

Yes because of sin. If you believe the scriptures then you are wrong.

When Christ comes back and establishes his kingdom on earth there will once again be no sin on the earth. What do the animals do at that point? Once again they don’t eat each other. They all become vegetarians again, just like they were before sin entered into the world. Isaiah 11:6.

I’m not arguing with you about what science says on it, i’m arguing with you about what scripture says, you can pick which one you want to believe.

So you're saying that animals eat the flesh of other animals because of sin? Eating meat is sinning? Or just made possible/necessary because of man sinning? If I'm not reading what you wrote correctly then please let me know.

Posted: 12/16/2018 5:20:25 AM EDT

[#23]

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You can find fossils of sea animals on almost every continent. Places where as far as we know water has never been other than finding those fossils. Also, the same layers of soil and fossils that scientist use to confirm an old earth could also be scientific evidence of rapid massive layers of soil laid down by surging seas during the flood and animals being killed and trapped in those sediments during the flood.

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Okay then.
But where is the scientific evidence right now, in favor of a universal flood in the world?

I believe that there is some scientific evidence currently which points to regional floods and some of them if not the same one an absolute rapid and violent surge and deluge of fresh and salt water.

But as of yet, no real scientific evidence of the deluge of Noah's day and what came after.
Or, this is what a significant part of the secular scientific community claims at this time.

You can find fossils of sea animals on almost every continent. Places where as far as we know water has never been other than finding those fossils. Also, the same layers of soil and fossils that scientist use to confirm an old earth could also be scientific evidence of rapid massive layers of soil laid down by surging seas during the flood and animals being killed and trapped in those sediments during the flood.

I have been told by a geologist and a friend of mine back in the 80's who was an expert in studying off-shore core samples for an international oil company from several different areas of the world, that he estimates that there was a, "grand flood," as he described it, about 5,400 years ago.
I live in North Central Texas and can find sea shells only a couple of inches under the soil of my flower beds.

Posted: 12/16/2018 5:37:10 AM EDT

[#24]

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So you're saying that animals eat the flesh of other animals because of sin? Eating meat is sinning? Or just made possible/necessary because of man sinning? If I'm not reading what you wrote correctly then please let me know.

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Death is a consequence of sin. Without sin, there is no death.

Animals don’t sin, and it is not a sin to eat meat for animals or for us today.

Prior to sin entering into the world everything, animals and man, was vegetarian.

Genesis 1:30 says Adam was given every green plant for food.

After Adam sinned that caused death and corruption to enter into the world.

From genesis 9 we see where God specifically tells Noah that they can eat meat. We see Christ himself feed the multitudes with fish. It is most certainly ok today to eat meat.

Posted: 12/16/2018 5:47:32 AM EDT

[#25]

We already know that time is different between two people at two different altitudes or going two different speeds on earth and ya'll are talking about time as experienced by God before creation as if you know what that means.

Posted: 12/16/2018 5:52:28 AM EDT

[#26]

*Inserts Clinton meme*----> WHO CARES!!!

We want to know----> "How much longer Lord, how much longer"

Posted: 12/16/2018 6:22:17 AM EDT

[#27]

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Death is a consequence of sin. Without sin, there is no death.

Animals don’t sin, and it is not a sin to eat meat for animals or for us today.

Prior to sin entering into the world everything, animals and man, was vegetarian.

Genesis 1:30 says Adam was given every green plant for food.

After Adam sinned that caused death and corruption to enter into the world.

From genesis 9 we see where God specifically tells Noah that they can eat meat. We see Christ himself feed the multitudes with fish. It is most certainly ok today to eat meat.

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Hmm... I haven't really thought about the eating habits of animals in the Garden of Eden. I think there has been a discussion on arfcom before about how the carnivores were fed on the ark by Noah and some believe they were temporarily made into vegetarians until there was enough population to sustain carnivores and the circle of life as we know it.

From Acts with the vision Peter had we can kill and eat all animals without worry of "clean" vs. "unclean".
ETA: so that mean no sin in eating meat.

Posted: 12/16/2018 6:26:42 AM EDT

[#28]

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I don't believe a damn thing scientists tell me on either side of the isle.

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Which island are they on?

Posted: 12/16/2018 6:41:14 AM EDT

[#29]

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Which island are they on?

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I don't believe a damn thing scientists tell me on either side of the isle.

Which island are they on?

I think I know which one he’s on.

Posted: 12/16/2018 7:07:54 AM EDT

[#30]

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blah blah blah sciency stuff blah.

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See, what you fail to understand is that just because everything else was out there doesn't mean the earth existed until Jesus "fait luxed" it into existence 4500 years ago. It was a Tuesday, by the way, which is why Monday is the true "day of rest". Everyone gets that wrong.

Posted: 12/16/2018 9:01:57 AM EDT

[#31]

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It's a real shame so few Christians bother to actually study scripture. The Bible doesn't say how old the earth is, but the implication is millions if not billions of years old.....

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True, the Bible doesn't say how old the Earth is; but it does say exactly how long everyone from Adam to Abraham, doesn't it? So, we know how old MAN is if not the Earth itself.

Posted: 12/16/2018 9:55:08 AM EDT

[#32]

300 million years would be a good starting point for debate

idiots

Posted: 12/16/2018 10:03:14 AM EDT

[#33]

Funny thing is, Neil DeGrasse Tyson, among others, have argued in favor of young earth creationism.

Neil deGrasse Tyson: It's hard to argue that we aren't living in a simulated world

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYAG9dAfy8U

Posted: 12/16/2018 10:07:10 AM EDT

[#34]

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It's a real shame so few Christians bother to actually study scripture. The Bible doesn't say how old the earth is, but the implication is millions if not billions of years old. All the scientists have done is confirm what many if not most rabbis have been saying for eons. Even the early church fathers like Irenaeus believed in an old earth. I'm not sure when young earthers snuck into the faith, but it has done irrevocable harm to Christianity as a valid belief system.

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As a christian living in the bible belt I can honestly say I only know one person that believes in the young earth BS. All most every Christians I knowbelieves that the earth is millions of years old. It is a very small but very vocal minority that believe the young earth BS.

Posted: 12/16/2018 10:08:10 AM EDT

[#35]

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Funny thing is, Neil DeGrasse Tyson, among others, have argued in favor of young earth creationism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYAG9dAfy8U

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These threads tend to offer amazing, if not disturbing, insight into the reasoning of young earth creationists.

Posted: 12/16/2018 10:15:34 AM EDT

[#36]

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It's a real shame so few Christians bother to actually study scripture. The Bible doesn't say how old the earth is, but the implication is millions if not billions of years old. All the scientists have done is confirm what many if not most rabbis have been saying for eons. Even the early church fathers like Irenaeus believed in an old earth. I'm not sure when young earthers snuck into the faith, but it has done irrevocable harm to Christianity as a valid belief system.

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Pretty much agree with you on this.

There is nothing in the bible that clearly states how old the earth (or universe for that matter) is. Nothing. By claiming the bible does contain information about how old everything is, people are adding to the bible, which is also clearly a "no-no."

The earth could be far younger than hundreds of millions of years, but you won't find any proof of that in the bible.

Doesn't change the fact that I believe God created everything, and that is something the bible is very clear about.

Posted: 12/16/2018 10:19:18 AM EDT

[#37]

In the end, all that's going to matter is how you answer one question from God; "What have you done about my Son?"

In any event, I think the old-earth folks are looking at it wrong.

God defines a day.
God creates everything in six of them.
On one of those days he creates the earth and it spins at the speed it will need to be to match His 'one day'.

If for no other reason than the demonstrate his power.

Posted: 12/16/2018 10:22:28 AM EDT

[#38]

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It's a real shame so few Christians bother to actually study scripture. The Bible doesn't say how old the earth is, but the implication is millions if not billions of years old. All the scientists have done is confirm what many if not most rabbis have been saying for eons. Even the early church fathers like Irenaeus believed in an old earth. I'm not sure when young earthers snuck into the faith, but it has done irrevocable harm to Christianity as a valid belief system.

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The fact that Christians fight against that Idea is also frustrating. The Bible doesn’t say how old the earth is at all. God made Adam as a grown MAN when he created him. It’s silly to think God could create anything but the idea of either the earth being actually old or at least him creating a mature earth is impossible and is silly if you believe the other things He did.

Posted: 12/16/2018 10:25:13 AM EDT

[#39]

I think one question that needs to be addressed and never has been, as far as I know

Did Eve have pointy elbows

Posted: 12/16/2018 10:27:28 AM EDT

[#40]

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No need to look it up, I know all about it. And I know numerous other scriptures would have to be completely wrong for the gap theory to be true. If you believe in the inerrancy of scripture there is no way to come to any other conclusion other than scripture teaches a young earth.

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Look up the gap theory.

No need to look it up, I know all about it. And I know numerous other scriptures would have to be completely wrong for the gap theory to be true. If you believe in the inerrancy of scripture there is no way to come to any other conclusion other than scripture teaches a young earth.

Post Genesis 1. Read it while transcribing.

Posted: 12/16/2018 10:27:33 AM EDT

[#41]

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Or... the creation story is eerily similar to many other creation stories that came before it and the writer used terms that were easy for any uneducated halfwit to understand to ensure that the core message was received by all.

The core message is all that's important. When you try to apply the stories literally, they don't hold up to any logical scrutiny. Folks who accept that the Bible is mostly allegorical don't have to waste so much time defending the glaringly obvious inconsistencies contained within.

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Ok, so how's a day defined?

ETA: Not necessarily on the first statement. The problem arises when people assume, without looking any further.

It's a day. 24 hours. There is zero indication given in scripture that the verses in genesis refer to anything other than a literal 24 hours.

Except it does, right there in plain English. A "day", to us, is defined as 24 hours. Why? Because that's the time it takes us to make one trip around the sun, and object that wasn't even created until the fourth day, when, according to scripture, 3 "days" had already came and went.

Or... the creation story is eerily similar to many other creation stories that came before it and the writer used terms that were easy for any uneducated halfwit to understand to ensure that the core message was received by all.

The core message is all that's important. When you try to apply the stories literally, they don't hold up to any logical scrutiny. Folks who accept that the Bible is mostly allegorical don't have to waste so much time defending the glaringly obvious inconsistencies contained within.

This is a point that I think a lot of people on both sides (Christian and non-Christian) miss. The bible is full of prophets and Christ using parables and stories to relay messages. If you are trying to teach a belief system to everyone on the planet, including the drooling idiots, you have to make the lesson understandable to the majority of people. Think about it this way - if you are trying to teach physics to 1st graders you are not going to give them a detailed explanation of M-Theory. You are going to dumb the information down to a level the 1st graders can understand. If you believe in an all-powerful all-knowing God then you must realize that such an all-knowing God would dumb down the creation story so that everyone can grasp the concept.

Posted: 12/16/2018 10:31:40 AM EDT

[#42]

Please review thr work by the scientist Hugh Ross,
He is a Christian, the Hebrew for the creation account absolutely allows for a literal interpretation of the Bible and an old earth. It also allows for a more consistent view of the other creation passages.

Christians should not argue over this, it really can be used to foolishly divide.

Posted: 12/16/2018 10:38:21 AM EDT

[#43]

I'm pretty sure some of you guys have managed to thump a whole straight through whatever version of the Bible you own......or at least severely cave the thing in

Posted: 12/16/2018 10:39:16 AM EDT

[#44]

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It's a real shame so few Christians bother to actually study scripture. The Bible doesn't say how old the earth is, but the implication is millions if not billions of years old. All the scientists have done is confirm what many if not most rabbis have been saying for eons. Even the early church fathers like Irenaeus believed in an old earth. I'm not sure when young earthers snuck into the faith, but it has done irrevocable harm to Christianity as a valid belief system.

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I think it got started by autistic numerologists that over-studied scriptural genealogy and "reverse-engineered" a date back to the Garden of Eden.

Posted: 12/16/2018 10:43:57 AM EDT

[#45]

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You can find fossils of sea animals on almost every continent. Places where as far as we know water has never been other than finding those fossils. Also, the same layers of soil and fossils that scientist use to confirm an old earth could also be scientific evidence of rapid massive layers of soil laid down by surging seas during the flood and animals being killed and trapped in those sediments during the flood.

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Okay then.
But where is the scientific evidence right now, in favor of a universal flood in the world?

I believe that there is some scientific evidence currently which points to regional floods and some of them if not the same one an absolute rapid and violent surge and deluge of fresh and salt water.

But as of yet, no real scientific evidence of the deluge of Noah's day and what came after.
Or, this is what a significant part of the secular scientific community claims at this time.

You can find fossils of sea animals on almost every continent. Places where as far as we know water has never been other than finding those fossils. Also, the same layers of soil and fossils that scientist use to confirm an old earth could also be scientific evidence of rapid massive layers of soil laid down by surging seas during the flood and animals being killed and trapped in those sediments during the flood.

Oh good.

So since you don’t believe in evolution, explain to me how Noah fit every species of animal on earth into his Ark (for example, a quick google search states that there are over 91,000 species of insects)? How did he accommodate for desert and arctic animals on the same boat? How did marine fish survive with the sudden influx of freshwater from the rain? Did Noah and his family harbor every single human parasite? Did dinosaurs make the trip?

Posted: 12/16/2018 10:45:04 AM EDT

[#46]

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It’s a day. 24 hours. There is zero indication given in scripture that the verses in genesis refer to anything other than a literal 24 hours.

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Which is why the sola scripture folks are so foolish.

Posted: 12/16/2018 10:53:16 AM EDT

[#47]

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When you hear thunder, that's the sound of God facepalming because he heard some dumb shit from his believers like "the earth is only a few thousand years old."

If I created everything, including a race of beings in my image that were supposed to rule over it all, and said "this is all for you, now use the sense of wonder and curiosity I gave you to study all this cool shit and discover as much as you can" but they went around unquestionably believing retarded shit because some other retards told them that's what they're supposed to believe, I'd be very disappointed.

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Eve did believe a talking snake and got them kicked out of eden , so yeah that's exactly what happened

Posted: 12/16/2018 11:00:00 AM EDT

[#48]

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I have been told by a geologist and a friend of mine back in the 80's who was an expert in studying off-shore core samples for an international oil company from several different areas of the world, that he estimates that there was a, "grand flood," as he described it, about 5,400 years ago.
I live in North Central Texas and can find sea shells only a couple of inches under the soil of my flower beds.

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I think it just rained real hard for a few thousand years or maybe tens of thousands of years and the erosion carved out places like the Grand Canyon.

You even see Grand Canyons of small scale form all over the place when it rains hard for long periods today.

Posted: 12/16/2018 11:13:57 AM EDT

[#49]

I grew up in a deeply religious family in Virginia. I spent 5 years working with the scriptures to earn a BS in Bible and then went on to help pastor 2 churches. The *one* thing that I truly learned from this experience is that *anyone* can make the Bible say *anything* they want. That's the fundamental problem with Protestantism. If everyone is using faith to interpret scriptures then everyone's faith seems to lead them all to different conclusions. It's funny how that works. Of course Catholicism has problems of its own as well.

Trying to find to find real actionable science in literature written in the Bronze Age is a losing proposition folks. That's not why it was written in the first place.

My personal journey of faith & story if you're interested - http://disconnector.googlepages.com

TL;DR? - I no longer believe BECAUSE of the Bible.

Posted: 12/16/2018 11:19:58 AM EDT

[#50]

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Funny thing is, Neil DeGrasse Tyson, among others, have argued in favor of young earth creationism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYAG9dAfy8U

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Huh, that's interesting.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - World class scientists join in fight to prove the Earth is merely thousands of years old (Page 3 of 8)

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