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Posted: 2/21/2024 10:50:35 AM EDT
We know Ukraine is fucked. Can’t win without NATO intervention on the ground.
That said, I don’t foresee choppers snatching people off the US embassy while Russian troops take a pause from murdering and raping to do actual soldier things and close in on a beleaguered capital. I suspect a negotiated peace with a smaller Ukraine remaining. I then suspect the dems to equate it to the democrat  betrayal of the South Vietnamese.

One strategic mistake the dems made—always resisting an audit or any oversight of the Ukraine money.

We have seen how this admin abandons our equipment to the enemy.
I say no way we should send any advanced fighters for Putin to capture. Though I guess rhe pilots could fly them to Poland
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 10:55:58 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
We have seen how this admin abandons our equipment to the enemy.
I say no way we should send any advanced fighters for Putin to capture. Though I guess rhe pilots could fly them to Poland
View Quote


We shouldn't give them advanced anything. Hawk missiles, great, older stuff sure. I'm still hoping for the WW1 style trench warfare to continue for a few more years.
Let them both continue to just grind each other down.
It goes to show how important air dominance is to maneuver warfare. With neither side having that trenches and massed artillery came into being the thing again.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 10:58:26 AM EDT
[#2]
This is Russian disinformation and propaganda

Ukraine is winning currently
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 11:13:19 AM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This is Russian disinformation and propaganda

Ukraine is winning currently
View Quote

So much winning.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 11:25:33 AM EDT
[#4]
Russia has a 10:1 artillery ratio again. Europe can't get their privately owned arsenals to build more shells. And while US is urgently trying to increase our production, we got turds in Congress that won't pass a bill. But even then it's not nearly at the rate of production it needs to be....

Yeah, Ukraine is fucked. Things have changed a LOT. People made fun of NORK quality shells... when quantity has a quality all its own.

Russia now is building way more drones than Ukraine.

Even if the aid package is passed I dont know if that'll help at all... like 6 months ago we had to send Cluster shells and it was very controversial for Biden on his own side. Euros condemned sending Clusters to Ukraine. But it was literally all we had. We and Europe likely haven't built anywhere near enough Unitary artillery shells in the mean time to create parity with the amount Russia now has.

So... as someone who desperately wants Ukraine to win and believes Putin will test to see if Article 5 is for real or a bluff..... things are looking very bad for Ukraine.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 11:35:43 AM EDT
[#5]
In Vietnam, we tried to prop up the failed remnants of the Catholic Vietnamese collaborators of French colonists who fled from Hanoi to Saigon. This in a majority Buddist country.

With a few notable exceptions, the ARVN never stood and fought North Vietnamese regulars or sought out Viet Minh guerillas.

You'd be hard pressed to find, anywhere on this earth, more dedicated and fearless soldiers than the Ukrainians have put in the field the last two years. That does not change the fact that the country is being economically and militarily bled white by the delusional military and political leadership in Ukraine and USA.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 11:38:48 AM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This is Russian disinformation and propaganda

Ukraine is winning currently
View Quote
Two weeks?
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 11:40:51 AM EDT
[#7]
Just enough strength on both sides at this point to avoid total victory/breakout.

Russia would kind of be like the dog catching the car it was chasing. Now what? You have to administer a REALLY hostile territory and weather the inevitable guerilla actions that would occur. Way too many guns and drones out there to pacify the countryside.

Both sides need to settle.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 2:13:03 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Russia has a 10:1 artillery ratio again. Europe can't get their privately owned arsenals to build more shells. And while US is urgently trying to increase our production, we got turds in Congress that won't pass a bill. But even then it's not nearly at the rate of production it needs to be....

Yeah, Ukraine is fucked. Things have changed a LOT. People made fun of NORK quality shells... when quantity has a quality all its own.

Russia now is building way more drones than Ukraine.

Even if the aid package is passed I dont know if that'll help at all... like 6 months ago we had to send Cluster shells and it was very controversial for Biden on his own side. Euros condemned sending Clusters to Ukraine. But it was literally all we had. We and Europe likely haven't built anywhere near enough Unitary artillery shells in the mean time to create parity with the amount Russia now has.

So... as someone who desperately wants Ukraine to win and believes Putin will test to see if Article 5 is for real or a bluff..... things are looking very bad for Ukraine.
View Quote

Thank you, sir

I was unaware of much of that.  It is sobering
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 2:13:58 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
In Vietnam, we tried to prop up the failed remnants of the Catholic Vietnamese collaborators of French colonists who fled from Hanoi to Saigon. This in a majority Buddist country.

With a few notable exceptions, the ARVN never stood and fought North Vietnamese regulars or sought out Viet Minh guerillas.

You'd be hard pressed to find, anywhere on this earth, more dedicated and fearless soldiers than the Ukrainians have put in the field the last two years. That does not change the fact that the country is being economically and militarily bled white by the delusional military and political leadership in Ukraine and USA.
View Quote

They absolutely manned up for their country
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 2:14:27 PM EDT
[#10]
Tucker is that you ?
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 2:19:10 PM EDT
[#11]
I can see a coup d'etat.  That tends to happen when key military men turn against their dear leader; but didn't Z-man sack his top military recently?
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 2:24:01 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Ukraine is winning currently
View Quote


So much win.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 2:29:55 PM EDT
[#13]
sounds like a European issue, not an American issue...
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 2:30:33 PM EDT
[#14]
Ukraine is doomed, but only to a  brokered peace.

They will lose ground, and some population (over and above war losses).

Maybe, the folks left will clean up their gov.

And maybe I'm a Chinese jet pilot.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 2:33:08 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This is Russian disinformation and propaganda

Ukraine is winning currently
View Quote
Isn't the spring offensive 2.0 right around the corner?
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 2:58:43 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I can see a coup d'etat.  That tends to happen when key military men turn against their dear leader; but didn't Z-man sack his top military recently?
View Quote

Is Z still popular ?
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:03:56 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
In Vietnam, we tried to prop up the failed remnants of the Catholic Vietnamese collaborators of French colonists who fled from Hanoi to Saigon. This in a majority Buddist country.

With a few notable exceptions, the ARVN never stood and fought North Vietnamese regulars or sought out Viet Minh guerillas.

You'd be hard pressed to find, anywhere on this earth, more dedicated and fearless soldiers than the Ukrainians have put in the field the last two years. That does not change the fact that the country is being economically and militarily bled white by the delusional military and political leadership in Ukraine and USA.
View Quote


Vietnam is not a majority Buddhist country.  I was surprised to learn that, because I always thought it was.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:05:46 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I can see a coup d'etat.  That tends to happen when key military men turn against their dear leader; but didn't Z-man sack his top military recently?
View Quote


Several people here predicted the z man would be out of office last year in a military coup.

How did that work out?

Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:09:49 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This is Russian disinformation and propaganda

Ukraine is winning currently
View Quote

Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:14:16 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This is Russian disinformation and propaganda

Ukraine is winning currently
View Quote


By what metric ? Seems more like a stalemate.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:14:55 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
sounds like a European issue, not an American issue...
View Quote
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:19:04 PM EDT
[#22]
No Saigon moment.  At all.

They still dance the night away to loud music and drink good booze in Kiev.  That is not going to change after this war ends.

The way the war ends is the little counterfeit soldier, the coked-up dwarf, is going to sign a document saying Russia keeps Crimea and the Eastern provinces.  

Russia is going to sign a document saying they are keeping Crimea and the Eastern provinces.

The dwarf goes to Beverly Hills with tens of millions in his Panamanian bank account.  He is on CNN almost every night for a year.

Putin consolidates his territory, rebuilds his military with the Russian money the US gave back to him.

The US taxpayer pays for the $1 trillion in rebuilding grift.  A decade and $1 trillion from now The Ukraine will look just like it does the day the agreement was signed.

Don't need any helicopters on roofs in Kiev for that.

Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:19:09 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Is Z still popular ?
View Quote

Depends on your source.  Heard some guy say his ratings are lower than Biden and Biden's real ratings are about 9.5%.  Personally I suspect the Ukrainian are sick of the war.  Who's the member who went there and posted the picture of all those tiny flags each of which represent a fallen soldier?  Remember that for every dead there's probably at least four wounded; some of whom are permanently crippled.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:19:41 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Several people here predicted the z man would be out of office last year in a military coup.

How did that work out?

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I can see a coup d'etat.  That tends to happen when key military men turn against their dear leader; but didn't Z-man sack his top military recently?


Several people here predicted the z man would be out of office last year in a military coup.

How did that work out?


U-crane will push the Russians back to Moscva!
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:26:08 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Is Z still popular ?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I can see a coup d'etat.  That tends to happen when key military men turn against their dear leader; but didn't Z-man sack his top military recently?

Is Z still popular ?

No idea. Per my contacts he wasn’t popular before the war but per the MSM he is hugely popular.

I think he is admired for standing up to the Russians though.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:28:17 PM EDT
[#26]
He was popular earlier but he has failed to deal with corruption butted heads with the most popular leader and failed to support army reforms that drag them away from old soviet system.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:30:46 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

No idea. Per my contacts he wasn’t popular before the war but per the MSM he is hugely popular.

I think he is admired for standing up to the Russians though.
View Quote


Check with Victoria Nuland on whether someone must be elected or popular to be the leader in The Ukraine.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:32:06 PM EDT
[#28]
At this point, there's no way for either side to "win".  Russia is not rolling to Kiev like Hungary in 1956 and installing a new government.  Ukraine can't drive the Russians back to the pre-2014 borders.  

The Russian people don't seem tired of Putin enough to get rid of him and give up, and the Ukrainians seem to have pretty strong popular support to keep fighting.

This is going to go on for a while if nothing changes.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:38:35 PM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
At this point, there's no way for either side to "win".  Russia is not rolling to Kiev like Hungary in 1956 and installing a new government.  Ukraine can't drive the Russians back to the pre-2014 borders.  

The Russian people don't seem tired of Putin enough to get rid of him and give up, and the Ukrainians seem to have pretty strong popular support to keep fighting.

This is going to go on for a while if nothing changes.
View Quote


Oh they are but nobody there can grow wings in case they fall out of the window so...
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:43:14 PM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Check with Victoria Nuland on whether someone must be elected or popular to be the leader in The Ukraine.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

No idea. Per my contacts he wasn’t popular before the war but per the MSM he is hugely popular.

I think he is admired for standing up to the Russians though.


Check with Victoria Nuland on whether someone must be elected or popular to be the leader in The Ukraine.

Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:45:46 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:

One strategic mistake the dems made always resisting an audit or any oversight of the Ukraine money.


View Quote

Oversight report October - December 2023
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:49:48 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
We know Ukraine is fucked. Can’t win without NATO intervention on the ground.
That said, I don’t foresee choppers snatching people off the US embassy while Russian troops take a pause from murdering and raping to do actual soldier things and close in on a beleaguered capital. I suspect a negotiated peace with a smaller Ukraine remaining. I then suspect the dems to equate it to the democrat  betrayal of the South Vietnamese.

One strategic mistake the dems made—always resisting an audit or any oversight of the Ukraine money.

We have seen how this admin abandons our equipment to the enemy.
I say no way we should send any advanced fighters for Putin to capture. Though I guess rhe pilots could fly them to Poland
View Quote


We aren’t sending fighters. The Europeans are, leading the way.



Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:51:12 PM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

So much winning.
View Quote


For only a few more hundred billion they can really win it for realsies. This time. For real.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:51:27 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Check with Victoria Nuland on whether someone must be elected or popular to be the leader in The Ukraine.
View Quote

Or ask her sister-in-law, Kimberly Kagan of the Institute For the Study of War.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:51:45 PM EDT
[#35]
Schizo thread
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:52:23 PM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
At this point, there's no way for either side to "win".  Russia is not rolling to Kiev like Hungary in 1956 and installing a new government.  Ukraine can't drive the Russians back to the pre-2014 borders.  

The Russian people don't seem tired of Putin enough to get rid of him and give up, and the Ukrainians seem to have pretty strong popular support to keep fighting.

This is going to go on for a while if nothing changes.
View Quote


It’s a big of a stretch to call Ukraine losing for not pushing Russia back to the 2014 borders (which they can’t)

And call Russia winning for not taking all of Ukraine like they wanted (they also can’t, depending on western aid).

Russia tried to take Kyiv in a 56 style offensive and a lightning war, thus the declaration of victory on day 2.


Link Posted: 2/21/2024 3:59:10 PM EDT
[#37]
Attachment Attached File


I remember this being said last year

I also remember sketti saying Ukraine would be defeated within a few months by august?

Link Posted: 2/21/2024 4:01:04 PM EDT
[#38]
The relentless eros for Putin is boundless among some.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 4:05:28 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Or ask her sister-in-law, Kimberly Kagan of the Institute For the Study of War.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


Check with Victoria Nuland on whether someone must be elected or popular to be the leader in The Ukraine.

Or ask her sister-in-law, Kimberly Kagan of the Institute For the Study of War.


Or her husband, the Greek born head of the Project for the New American Century.  Say that title with me.  The arrogance of it.  And Vicky out there making it happen.  No matter how tall the pile of burned out skulls.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 4:06:19 PM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

No idea. Per my contacts he wasn’t popular before the war but per the MSM he is hugely popular.

I think he is admired for standing up to the Russians though.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I can see a coup d'etat.  That tends to happen when key military men turn against their dear leader; but didn't Z-man sack his top military recently?

Is Z still popular ?

No idea. Per my contacts he wasn’t popular before the war but per the MSM he is hugely popular.

I think he is admired for standing up to the Russians though.

I've never heard any credible report that Zelensky is NOT popular, although the sacking of Zaluzhny does hurt.

What Ukrainians think about Zelenskyy now? After 625 Days of War


Ukrainians: About Top General Replacement | Street Interview
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 4:11:08 PM EDT
[#41]
To address the question in the OP, it is possible. If Russia wins (which should happen eventually, absent enough western military aid), there will be a massive wave of people fleeing from the Russians and their history of rape, murder, and destruction. I think something like 5 million left at the start of the war, with some trickling back, but I think you could see 10-15 million flee if Russia really wins. They know what happens after Russia conquers a neighbor: genocide, displacement, replacement.

The question is, how much is Europe willing to help Ukraine in order to avoid that outcome?
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 4:14:08 PM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
To address the question in the OP, it is possible. If Russia wins (which should happen eventually, absent enough western military aid), there will be a massive wave of people fleeing from the Russians and their history of rape, murder, and destruction. I think something like 5 million left at the start of the war, with some trickling back, but I think you could see 10-15 million flee if Russia really wins. They know what happens after Russia conquers a neighbor: genocide, displacement, replacement.

The question is, how much is Europe willing to help Ukraine in order to avoid that outcome?
View Quote

Truff

Big refugee issue
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 4:15:23 PM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


It’s a big of a stretch to call Ukraine losing for not pushing Russia back to the 2014 borders (which they can’t)

And call Russia winning for not taking all of Ukraine like they wanted (they also can’t, depending on western aid).

Russia tried to take Kyiv in a 56 style offensive and a lightning war, thus the declaration of victory on day 2.


View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
At this point, there's no way for either side to "win".  Russia is not rolling to Kiev like Hungary in 1956 and installing a new government.  Ukraine can't drive the Russians back to the pre-2014 borders.  

The Russian people don't seem tired of Putin enough to get rid of him and give up, and the Ukrainians seem to have pretty strong popular support to keep fighting.

This is going to go on for a while if nothing changes.


It’s a big of a stretch to call Ukraine losing for not pushing Russia back to the 2014 borders (which they can’t)

And call Russia winning for not taking all of Ukraine like they wanted (they also can’t, depending on western aid).

Russia tried to take Kyiv in a 56 style offensive and a lightning war, thus the declaration of victory on day 2.



Defining winning is a valid point.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 4:15:52 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


By what metric ? Seems more like a stalemate.
View Quote

The Ukraine still holds Uzhhorod so technically they are “winning” according to supporters.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 4:20:21 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
sounds like a European issue, not an American issue...
View Quote




 
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 4:20:31 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
To address the question in the OP, it is possible. If Russia wins (which should happen eventually, absent enough western military aid), there will be a massive wave of people fleeing from the Russians and their history of rape, murder, and destruction. I think something like 5 million left at the start of the war, with some trickling back, but I think you could see 10-15 million flee if Russia really wins. They know what happens after Russia conquers a neighbor: genocide, displacement, replacement.

The question is, how much is Europe willing to help Ukraine in order to avoid that outcome?
View Quote


If Russia wanted to "conquer a neighbor" they would have already turned the lights out in Kiev.  A lot of Ukrainians have left their country not because they fear Russia, but because they fear their own government.  Where they go, and how many, is not my problem.

Russia is going to "win" if you call winning bringing the Russian provinces back under formal Russian control and making permanent Crimea annexation.  

The Ukrainians who are plugged into power are going to hit the jackpot of US tax dollars in the rebuilding grift.

This is the only possible outcome.
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 4:26:02 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I've never heard any credible report that Zelensky is NOT popular, although the sacking of Zaluzhny does hurt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB98PTuyBxc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_bepGDzuoI
View Quote


The absolute irony is that Syrsky was born in Russia and spoke it as his first Language

Russia is trying to eliminate Russian
Speakers indeed
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 4:31:04 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


We shouldn't give them advanced anything.
View Quote

Fixed
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 4:34:15 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
That said, I don’t foresee choppers snatching people off the US embassy while Russian troops take a pause from murdering and raping to do actual soldier things and close in on a beleaguered capital. I suspect a negotiated peace with a smaller Ukraine remaining.
View Quote


Biden tried. Remember? He offered Zelensky a chopper ride out when Russian columns were driving towards Kiev. Zelenskey refused. The Russian columns were thrown back and it's now what, about 2 years since the people offering the chopper ride and a 2 weeks defeat for Ukraine were rebuked by the Ukrainians?
Link Posted: 2/21/2024 4:37:37 PM EDT
[#50]
Biden's concept of winning involves running away and leaving lots of equipment in the hands of the enemy. So by that measure Zelensky is definitely winning
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