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Posted: 1/23/2021 2:58:05 PM EDT
[#1]
I've seen DI's beat the shit out of enlisted.
Even saw one pretty much beat to death not sure if he died but if he did he deserved it. Fist fights between enlisted as a method to solve differences was well known from WW2 on certainly throughout every military in the world. In many cases rings and gloves were provided for such matters. Officers however don't as a rule hit enlisted men...especially in front of doctors and nurses... Patton was a well known as a scrapper and intolerant of soldiers, and even generals who showed a lack of gumption. The press hated him and targeted him...probably because he was an anti communist...and all that went with that back east. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:08:46 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are either missing the context or are an idiot. Also nice screen name, should have added 88 to it. If the word 'faggot' bothers you enough to call someone a NAZI, prolly best you leave now . |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:18:42 PM EDT
[#3]
The difference between a warrior and a politician.
Always reminds me of this scene.  You Can't Handle the Truth! - A Few Good Men (7/8) Movie CLIP (1992) HD |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:18:52 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would it have been ok for an enlisted man to slap him? No? Then he should have kept his fucking hands to himself. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:25:01 PM EDT
[#5]
As I understand the situation, the soldiers he struck were shell shocked and he took it for cowardice
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:28:40 PM EDT
[#6]
OP, I assume you never served in the military. Not knocking you but if you had served it would make more sense why that isn't condoned.
A good leader knows how to instill loyalty and morale and can have the troops highly motivated and it doesnt take yelling or hitting them. A senior officer shouldn't be yelling or cursing at their enlisted subordinates, that's the job of senior NCO's  Striking a subordinate just isn't done and it most certainly isn't done by a high ranking officer against an enlisted member. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:30:15 PM EDT
[#7]
It was conduct unbecoming an officer. It showed an astonishing lack of self control and discipline -- and this from a man who demanded unwavering discipline from the men in his command.
Patton's greatness was more myth and propaganda than reality. He was undisciplined as hell, driven almost entirely by ego, and he had nowhere near the grasp of the situation as he thought he did. Eisenhower and Bradley were focused on winning the war, primarily by avoiding mistakes that could easily cost them the war or at least seriously delay victory. They were both brilliant and methodical strategists who ground the enemy down, move by careful move, leaving his no possible route toward victory. Patton didn't give a shit about any of that. He wanted headlines, and he chased those headlines to the point of absolute tactical madness. He pissed off everyone around him including his peers, subordinates, superiors, and our allies. He pushed his army well past his chain of supply, even running his vehicles out of fuel. He mistook a lack of German resistance (most of their effort was concentrated on the Eastern front) for an inability to muster resistance, was very lucky that his army was not destroyed in detail. Had it been it could have set the western allies advance back by months or even years. Hell, it could have cost us all of Europe, turning a slower by sure victory into a loss to either Germany or Russia. It was idiotic. And his comments about fighting Russia were literally insane, and showed just how clearly he underestimated the might of the Red Army or the situation in the pacific. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:30:41 PM EDT
[#8]
There is a mythology about WWII and The Greatest Generation that assumes Americans were superior people who were invincible and wise.
They were like every generation: a Gaussian distribution of strengths and talents. They were handed an existential threat and they responded as probably any generation would, and the cream rose to the top and those are the people we remember and are celebrated But there were screw ups in all branches of the service at all levels. Even our best generals did stupid things. Even the best units had screw ups, misfits and deserters. Why do you think they executed Pvt. Eddie Slovak? Because desertion in combat was becoming a real problem. Do you think Patton’s obsession with taking Metz was great? Do you think MacArthur wasn’t a vainglorious asshole who was often brilliant but sometimes wrong? How about our political leaders? Congressman LBJ getting a silver star for being in a plane that took some enemy fire? The War Department chose to show combat footage depicting dead Marines washing up on the beach after Tarawa because the thought the civilians on the home front were getting a bit complacent about the war. As for the home front, there were plenty of parents who did not want to see a general slapping an enlisted man or an officer who broke under the stress of combat. There were plenty of people who cheated on rationing rules or gamed the system. Thee no better or worse than any other generation. At the end of WWII the civilians on the home front were agitating for their sons to come home NOW regardless of the geopolitical consequences leading to a very hollow Army going into Korea. The Greatest Generation were the parents that raised the Baby Boomers, good and bad. Some would argue that the Greatest Generation might be the parents of the WWII vets, since they prevailed over the Depression and brought up the men that would win WWII. The generation of fighting men who beat the Iraqis and the Taliban were just as tough as any of the WWII vets. We just don’t make much of their accomplishments because Bushchimpyhitler was in charge and war is bad. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:31:09 PM EDT
[#9]
I guess if you consider slapping someone with you gloves a 'hit' , then technically you'd be right. Patton was over reacting, no doubt, and didnt know the kid's real condition at that moment...he was just pissed and meant to insult the kid by slapping him....as was common long before his time . . . . as Patton belonged in a world far before his time, and he knew it.
The commie press got wind of it and blew it outa proportion, like commie press do, and it made it's way, via the Karens of the 40's, to the top brass. It shoulda been a non-issue that stayed inside that med-tent and forgotten about by the next day. Right is right, wrong is wrong, bla-bla-bla.....it was the middle of a pretty big war, IIRC  Feels . . . . fuck em. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:32:24 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Striking an enlisted man was unseemly and ungentlemanly behavior, especially for General Officer's. He was a friend of my Great-Uncle's, and even Clarence thought he was an asshole. An effective asshole, but still an asshole. Still, sometimes assholes get things done. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:33:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would it have been ok for an enlisted man to slap him? No? Then he should have kept his fucking hands to himself. I doubt he would be sniveling in the rear though. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:33:42 PM EDT
[#12]
My uncle served under Patton.
He said Payton was good at winning, but cared more about winning for his own glory than anything else. He viewed his soldiers as tools not men. Easily replaced tools so he had no problems sacrificing them. His judgements never considered the lives of his men only the chances of winning. Above all he expected his subordinates to fall on their swords for his own glory. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:35:22 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He equated PTSD with cowardice. Kind of stupid of him.  No, he just had no tolerance for pussying out. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:35:38 PM EDT
[#14]
Liberals want Kinder Gentler Wars.
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:36:10 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It was conduct unbecoming an officer. It showed an astonishing lack of self control and discipline -- and this from a man who demanded unwavering discipline from the men in his command. Patton's greatness was more myth and propaganda than reality. He was undisciplined as hell, driven almost entirely by ego, and he had nowhere near the grasp of the situation as he thought he did. Eisenhower and Bradley were focused on winning the war, primarily by avoiding mistakes that could easily cost them the war or at least seriously delay victory. They were both brilliant and methodical strategists who ground the enemy down, move by careful move, leaving his no possible route toward victory. Patton didn't give a shit about any of that. He wanted headlines, and he chased those headlines to the point of absolute tactical madness. He pissed off everyone around him including his peers, subordinates, superiors, and our allies. He pushed his army well past his chain of supply, even running his vehicles out of fuel. He mistook a lack of German resistance (most of their effort was concentrated on the Eastern front) for an inability to muster resistance, was very lucky that his army was not destroyed in detail. Had it been it could have set the western allies advance back by months or even years. Hell, it could have cost us all of Europe, turning a slower by sure victory into a loss to either Germany or Russia. It was idiotic. And his comments about fighting Russia were literally insane, and showed just how clearly he underestimated the might of the Red Army or the situation in the pacific. Yep, and the keyboard commandos who echo Patton just don’t realize there was NO appetite for another prolonged optional war against Russia after Germany was defeated. They wanted the troops to come home. They were not thinking of Russia as a geopolitical foe. Communism was not yet the curse word that it became in the late 1940s. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:38:07 PM EDT
[#16]
Because of Communists! We all know how decent and humanly Communists treat their troops.
[]
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:38:15 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My uncle served under Patton. He said Payton was good at winning, but cared more about winning for his own glory than anything else. He viewed his soldiers as tools not men. Easily replaced tools so he had no problems sacrificing them. His judgements never considered the lives of his men only the chances of winning. Above all he expected his subordinates to fall on their swords for his own glory. Sounds like many of the traits of a recently elected official from Palm Beach FL. 
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:39:32 PM EDT
[#18]
...
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:40:47 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because he was an ardent anti Communist and even then the commies were widespread throughout the media and intellectual classes. This is a big part of the reaction. The commies will use any excuse to try to destroy the people that threaten them. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:40:50 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah that's why our military during the height of the 20th century was so cowardly and useless compared to places like Russia, China and North Korea that beat their stupid and poorly disciplined conscripts. Fuck trying to have professional soldiers. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The common civilian is shocked by the realitys of war and doesn't have the smarts to accept them Yeah that's why our military during the height of the 20th century was so cowardly and useless compared to places like Russia, China and North Korea that beat their stupid and poorly disciplined conscripts. Fuck trying to have professional soldiers. Your average GI wasn't a professional soldier. He was a civilian in a soldier suit. Professional soldiers are why we have knife hands and PT belts., pointless formations and uniform changes once a decade, Powerpoint and inane regulations. Your average GI just wanted to get the war over and go home, not worry about all the pomp and circumstance and the flagpole and crap. Patton was effective, but he was also more concerned with his own personal glory and being seen as a soldier than he was about his own troops. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:45:38 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Striking a man that is incapable of hitting back is cowardly and abusive. Best post so far. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:45:51 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Striking an enlisted man was unseemly and ungentlemanly behavior, especially for General Officer's. He was a friend of my Great-Uncle's, and even Clarence thought he was an asshole. An effective asshole, but still an asshole. My great uncle was one of his personal assistants. Can confirm dickheadedness. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:46:44 PM EDT
[#23]
This thread reminded me of the time my E5 told me to go ahead and hit him in front of my section. One of my biggest regrets that I didn't hit him, because I would have wrecked him and he totally deserved it. Fuck, wish i would have hit him!
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:49:29 PM EDT
[#24]
I spoke with Ken Heckler once (he wrote the Bridge at Remagen book). I asked if he knew Patton and he said he had only met once. Heckler was a captain, and like most people was unexcited about the idea of getting his head canoed by a sniper, so he put boot black on his silver rank bars (a fairly common practice). Patton saw his bars and threatened to have him court martialed over it. He cleaned off the bars, Patton went on to do whatever, and then Heckler put the boot black bat on his bars and went his own way.
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Posted: 1/23/2021 3:55:31 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, he just had no tolerance for pussying out. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: He equated PTSD with cowardice. Kind of stupid of him. No, he just had no tolerance for pussying out. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 4:02:44 PM EDT
[#26]
Because it's criminal and on a fuck ton of levels, unprofessional behavior. Same reason why people get riled up when an NFL stars beats up his girlfriend. Wearing a uniform and being good at what you do is no excuse for being a colossal douchebag.
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Posted: 1/23/2021 4:03:41 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I guess if you consider slapping someone with you gloves a 'hit' , then technically you'd be right. Patton was over reacting, no doubt, and didnt know the kid's real condition at that moment...he was just pissed and meant to insult the kid by slapping him....as was common long before his time . . . . as Patton belonged in a world far before his time, and he knew it. The commie press got wind of it and blew it outa proportion, like commie press do, and it made it's way, via the Karens of the 40's, to the top brass. It shoulda been a non-issue that stayed inside that med-tent and forgotten about by the next day. Right is right, wrong is wrong, bla-bla-bla.....it was the middle of a pretty big war, IIRC Feels . . . . fuck em. Calling some Soldier who is not a coward a coward and then striking him [that was a affront that was an invitation to physical combat not that long ago] in front of his fellow Soldiers and peers is like someone fvcking your wife right in front of you while you are tied up and taunting you to do something about it. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 4:05:37 PM EDT
[#28]
The Press. MSM even then
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Posted: 1/23/2021 4:13:55 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because he was an ardent anti Communist and even then the commies were widespread throughout the media and intellectual classes. This is the correct answer right here! |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 4:14:33 PM EDT
[#30]
I was deployed and in a mandatory group briefing. The mag/cc was on a rant about something in the Air Force Times. He said he could kick anyones ass that was there. I wondered what would have happened had someone took him up on it.
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Posted: 1/23/2021 4:16:42 PM EDT
[#31]
Because if the soldier beat the shit out of him in return, he’d be arrested. Kind of a power dynamic there.
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Posted: 1/23/2021 4:19:55 PM EDT
[#32]
When a military leader resorts to physical violence against a subordinate (other than self defense or existences in combat, of course) he has already lost the leadership battle. Patton ruled by fear and discipline, but since there was a major war and lots of battles it didn't really matter as the job had to be done. Patton's strategy in Sicily got many, many Americans killed simply because he wanted to beat the British. Most troops that served under Patton hated him with a passion. A former co-workers grandfather served under Patton and if his name was even mentioned, this mild mannered farmer would go into a rage, that's how bad he was hated.
A true military leader, especially a General officer, does not need to resort to any physical violence, nor does he need to be openly armed, to perform his duties. I know that is antitheta to GD but in reality that is the truth. While MacArthur is roundly despised, it was one of his maxims that he would never openly carry a sidearm while commanding. He fully believed his authority, leadership and strategic and tactical acumen is what was necessary, not an armed he-man presence. That is something Patton never understood, the guy who carried 2 pearl handled revolvers like some mythical cowboy General. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 4:21:10 PM EDT
[#33]
Political correctness
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Posted: 1/23/2021 4:23:51 PM EDT
[#34]
'Cause yo, soldiers gots feels too!
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Posted: 1/23/2021 4:24:50 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Calling some Soldier who is not a coward a coward and then striking him [that was a affront that was an invitation to physical combat not that long ago] in front of his fellow Soldiers and peers is like someone fvcking your wife right in front of you while you are tied up and taunting you to do something about it. That's the parallel you're drawing ? 
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Posted: 1/23/2021 4:27:03 PM EDT
[#36]
Russia or Germany would have shot that soldier, so in perspective Paton was a kind and benevolent leader. Media needed a story though.
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Posted: 1/23/2021 4:36:40 PM EDT
[#37]
What combat had Patton seen, other than rampaging on unarmed US Veterans?
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Posted: 1/23/2021 4:42:06 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My grandfather was a cook in the Army. He was good friends with Bradley's driver and got to know Patton's driver well. My grandfather swore until the day he died that Patton's driver killed him. He said he hated Patton so much he would have purposely crashed even if it meant they both died. Patton was hated by many men for his chickenshit rules. There is a story about a soldier who had his throat cut and could not wear a tie until the would healed. Patton ordered him to have a tie next time he saw him, but instead the guy got a note from a General/Doctor that he was excused from wearing a tie. I worked with Patton's grandaughter for several years. Very nice lady. One day at lunch we were talking about Patton and she said the same thing. She said there was significant conjecture in the family that his death was caused his driver. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 4:43:03 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, hitting junior enlisted wasn't ever an approved thing as far as I know in modern times, even as NCO business. No doubt it happened and was probably often well deserved though. My grandad joined the Marines during the start of WWII and he never saw a DI hit a recruit even at basic training. Plenty of hazing that would get people in trouble today, but no hitting. He did get caught with his hands in his pockets towards the beginning and was made to fill his pants pockets with sand and sew them shut for the remainder of the training though In the 80s my DI hit me {technically kicked} I didn’t complain I just stared at him while he said something about I bet you don’t like that. Wasn’t the end of the world |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 4:53:07 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The common civilian is shocked by the realitys of war and doesn't have the smarts to accept them If he had slapped a man in the heat of battle to get him moving and keep people from getting killed this argument would have merit. Slapping a soldier in a hospital is not appropriate behavior for an officer (or anyone else). Patton was a great commander when the situation called for speed and aggression. He wasn’t perfect, and the media blew his reputation out of proportion because he gave them fodder for interesting stories. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 4:54:22 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What combat had Patton seen, other than rampaging on unarmed US Veterans? Mexico with Pershing and WW1. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 4:57:34 PM EDT
[#42]
There is a school of thought that when Patton slapped those soldiers he was simply overly stressed himself. He was known for loud and mercurial, but slapping troops was not something he was known for.
Likewise, Robert E. Lee was known for being reserved but when Stuart finally showed up at Gettysburg he was noted as yelling at Stuart and raising his arm up as if to strike Stuart before he got himself back together. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 5:04:10 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I spoke with Ken Heckler once (he wrote the Bridge at Remagen book). I asked if he knew Patton and he said he had only met once. Heckler was a captain, and like most people was unexcited about the idea of getting his head canoed by a sniper, so he put boot black on his silver rank bars (a fairly common practice). Patton saw his bars and threatened to have him court martialed over it. He cleaned off the bars, Patton went on to do whatever, and then Heckler put the boot black bat on his bars and went his own way. Parton was very much concerned about appearances. Fined officers in North Africa for not wearing ties. Legend has it he opposed replacement of the totally inadequate M1941 field jacket with the improved M1943 because he thought the M1941 looked nicer. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 5:07:47 PM EDT
[#44]
I have met one person who actually served under Patton. The guy absolutely loved him. He wore his third army ball cap everywhere he went. Personally, I think the guy was full of it and doubt he ever met him.
One of the soldiers that Patton smacked had Malaria. If Patton wasn't such a good general in a war where we really needed good generals he would've been canned on the spot, And deservedly so. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 5:08:47 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wish we could still slap soldiers. Much faster than a counseling statement.  Just abuse, with no positive aspect of learning better behavior. This is the largest contributing factor to why Drill Sergeants are not allowed to strike recruits (except on the range) as too many became addicted to it rather than explaining WHY something was wrong. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 5:09:16 PM EDT
[#46]
Lol..if our 5 ft 3in, two star slapped someone, A 8 year old could rip his spine out...The image just cracks me up.
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Posted: 1/23/2021 5:15:16 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Striking an enlisted man was unseemly and ungentlemanly behavior, especially for General Officer's. He was a friend of my Great-Uncle's, and even Clarence thought he was an asshole. An effective asshole, but still an asshole. He should have gotten a First Sergeant to do it. 
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Posted: 1/23/2021 5:19:06 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You really ask that question? Officers dont hit enlisted. What the fuck do you think this is 3rd world wipe your ass with your left hand army. I knew a Canadian soldier who had served as UN peacekeeper on Cyprus back in the early 80s, which kept the Turks from massacring the Greeks. He said the Turkish officers would routinely beat the crap out of their men. He said one time they were watching some Turkish soldier get slapped around by his CO. The soldier lost control and hit the officer back. The officer steps back, pulls out his gun, and blows the guy's head open right there. The Iraq and Afghan vets here probably have even more graphic stories. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 5:41:43 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I worked with Patton's grandaughter for several years. Very nice lady. One day at lunch we were talking about Patton and she said the same thing. She said there was significant conjecture in the family that his death was caused his driver. No shit? That's the first I'd ever heard anything to corroborate grampa's story. Those guys remained friends after the war, and my dad said it was just matter of fact truth to them. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 5:45:15 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It was conduct unbecoming an officer. It showed an astonishing lack of self control and discipline -- and this from a man who demanded unwavering discipline from the men in his command. Patton's greatness was more myth and propaganda than reality. He was undisciplined as hell, driven almost entirely by ego, and he had nowhere near the grasp of the situation as he thought he did. Eisenhower and Bradley were focused on winning the war, primarily by avoiding mistakes that could easily cost them the war or at least seriously delay victory. They were both brilliant and methodical strategists who ground the enemy down, move by careful move, leaving his no possible route toward victory. Patton didn't give a shit about any of that. He wanted headlines, and he chased those headlines to the point of absolute tactical madness. He pissed off everyone around him including his peers, subordinates, superiors, and our allies. He pushed his army well past his chain of supply, even running his vehicles out of fuel. He mistook a lack of German resistance (most of their effort was concentrated on the Eastern front) for an inability to muster resistance, was very lucky that his army was not destroyed in detail. Had it been it could have set the western allies advance back by months or even years. Hell, it could have cost us all of Europe, turning a slower by sure victory into a loss to either Germany or Russia. It was idiotic. And his comments about fighting Russia were literally insane, and showed just how clearly he underestimated the might of the Red Army or the situation in the pacific. The same Eisenhower that ordered western forces to stop at the Elbe river in order to allow the Russians to take Berlin? He was the one that was focused on winning the war? The same Eisenhower that ordered Patton to stop short of Prague to not offend the Russians, leaving the Czechs' fate in the hands of the communists? |
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