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Posted: 1/31/2020 1:22:33 PM EDT
Looking at these two calibers it's hard to argue that 300 blackout isn't a poor reinvention of 9x39, designed with the #1 consideration being to shoehorn it into an AR profile magazine.

9x39 appears to outclass 300 blackout in virtually every regard, especially terminal performance in the subsonic envelope where the bulk of the .30 cal bullets used in 300 aren't designed to perform.

I DO see 9x39 ammo available (wolf), and I also find examples on YT of AR's built with 9x39 uppers.

It's tested and combat proven, and has purpose built firearms (VSS Vintorez) that are very highly regarded. I'm not so invested in the AR or the magazine as an asset or requirement that the round be launched from either.

If the 300 blackout is doing something better, I'm not seeing it.

Open to a change of opinion so:

Link Posted: 1/31/2020 1:24:13 PM EDT
AR platform and ammo/bullet selection for subs supers. I own neither so don’t listen to me
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 1:25:02 PM EDT
Because .30 cal bullet selection
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 1:27:59 PM EDT
M193 eher'thing!
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 1:28:08 PM EDT
Because you already have a .300 BLK in your gun safe.  Probably many.  They just happen to have 5.56 barrels in them.  How much would you have to change to switch an AR from 5.56 to 9x39?  More than just the barrel...
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 1:28:27 PM EDT
A: There are no Vintorez in the US. There was a guy working on building some, but I've yet to see proof of production.
B: There's a shitload of ARs and AR mags here in the US. A barrel swap is all that's required for .300blk, so it's attractive for a lot of people.
C: There's similarly a shitload of 5.56 brass out here, and making .300blk brass is easy.
D: .30cal bullet selection
E: Finally (and arguably most importantly), it made it to the market first with a better marketing budget. So it won.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 1:28:38 PM EDT
You may as well 338 Specter then.

Better performance, bullet selection!

Do it OP!
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 1:29:52 PM EDT
It isn't another shitty commie round.

Also, better bullet selection, brass availability, commonality with parts of the arsenal of freedom
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 1:30:11 PM EDT
Geeze, we just did this one the other day!  

There is a hell of a lot of bullet selection that you can load if you are a reloader,  customizing different rounds for different things.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 1:35:23 PM EDT
If I wanted a subsonic round in I'd buy a .357 lever gun and use .38's.

Oh wait, I already do that.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 1:36:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 1:43:40 PM EDT
The advantage of 300 is logistical.  Every single part in a 300 chambered AR is a standard 5.56 part except the barrel, at least in theory.  In practice pmags sometimes don't work great with 300, but from what I can tell, the aluminum mags like D&H and Okay work fine with it.

I was seriously considering one recently with the news that Wolf is bringing some cheaper steel case ammo to market for it.  I ultimately didn't go that route because 1) the only place the steel case loads are available for pre-order has them at 34 cpr and I'd guess it'll be a while before it comes down, if ever and 2) I care more about supersonic performance that subsonic performance, and 300 in a super is ok, but not particularly impressive either.  It really needed to at least equal 7.62x39, and regardless of what the interwebs claims, it doesn't.  Maybe that's not possible in a 5.56 case.  I will say it comes remarkably close considering x39 has about 40% more powder capacity than 300 (roughly 25gr of water for 300, roughly 35 for 7.62x39).

In fact, to plan my most recent build which is intended as a hunting rifle, I weighed the pros and cons of 300, 6.8, 6.5G, 277 Wolverine, 25-45 Sharps, 50 Beowulf, 7.62x39, and stepping up to an AR-10 in 308 for a deer and hog rifle.  I could go into details on all these, but by the time it was done, I went with....5.56.  My plan is to load 75gr gold dots to max pressure and fire them from a 20 inch light profile barrel.  I think it will be good for most any white tail up to medium size pigs within 100 yards.

Later on I might get a big bore; I've got a casting setup which will keep the cost of ammo down and, well, 50 beowulf cases are big so they're easy to find on the ground after range practice
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 1:50:13 PM EDT
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Quoted:
You may as well 338 Specter then.

Better performance, bullet selection!

Do it OP!
View Quote
That's such a sexy round.

Like, that's a show a date the round to hopefully get lucky later kind of round.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 1:51:37 PM EDT
Supersonic
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 1:52:07 PM EDT
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Quoted:

Good points, but one minor quibble...

Some 5.56 brass is too thick where the new .300 neck and shoulder will be. You either need to sort brass by headstamp for the known good ones, or turn the necks down on every thicker case. Otheriwse they'll be just a few thousandths too thick when loaded with a projectile and won't chamber all the way.

Ask me how I know this.

So making .300 brass isn't quite as easy as just chopping it to rough length with your Harbor Freight mini-saw, then sizing it in a die, then trimming it for length.
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Yeah, that is a minor quibble. Extremely minor in fact.

I’ve converted thousands but I do check headstamp and personally I only convert LC or PMC, which luckily is 99% of it it seems. The other headstands I just keep for 5.56 blasting.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 1:54:41 PM EDT
Is 9x39 available in supersonic? If so, how's the performance?

The 300blk was developed mostly to put a 30 cal round in an AR/M4 platform as efficiently as possible. That's why, even though it's inspiration/origin - 300 whisper - was always basically just a subsonic specialty round, the 300blk was designed to offer effective performance in supersonic form primarily (look at the origin Silvers 300blk release material) with the capability of also running subsonics if desired. Versatility is the name of its game.

The honey badger, which was developed at the same time, was able to dramatically improve subsonic performance over the MP5SD (which slowed lightweight NATO 9mm rounds down to subsonic velocities, essentially offering .380 performance and ballistics), while dropping weight and allowing the use of the effective supersonic rounds in other situations with only a mag change.

Just because you only run or only think people run subs in 300blk doesn't mean that's what the round was designed to do or how it is used by a lot of people. And from what I'm seeing 9x39 is pretty much a one trick pony.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 1:58:11 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Supersonic
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^^
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:03:08 PM EDT
If I'm going bigger than 300 Blk, I'm grabbing the 458 SOCOM.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:03:46 PM EDT
I'm getting the "because it fits in my AR" argument here loud and clear.

And yes, I can change the barrel and have 300 blackout. But the day I do that, the gun I do it to loses a fuck ton of capability and costs five times the amount to shoot it, just to become a little bit quieter.

I don't see how we can celebrate bullet selection without any evidence or consideration of terminal performance. I'm a handloader, and familiar with a lot of the hunting class .30 bullets that are commonly used in 300, and NONE of them will perform even close to as advertised at subsonic speeds. In gel, the subsonic 300 blackout looks like 9mm ball ballistics to me.

If a boutique grade bullet is required to approach the performance of the 9x39, it changes the cost comparison a lot. You're probably talking a dollar a pull, or close.

The steel case subsonic 9x39 278gr appears to dramatically outperform any commercial ammo I've seen in gel from 300 blackout.

And it bears mention that one of these is combat proven, and the other is not.

If there were a commodity semi-auto Vintorez here, would that change anyone's opinion? I suspect the answer is no, because there's so much focus on the AR platform here being "the most important thing."
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:07:19 PM EDT
Give me supersonic 9X39 loads and make it available at WalMart and I'll consider changing.

Until then, 300BLK FTW.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:08:00 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Is 9x39 available in supersonic? If so, how's the performance?

The 300blk was developed mostly to put a 30 cal round in an AR/M4 platform as efficiently as possible. That's why, even though it's inspiration/origin - 300 whisper - was always basically just a subsonic specialty round, the 300blk was designed to offer effective performance in supersonic form primarily (look at the origin Silvers 300blk release material) with the capability of also running subsonics if desired. Versatility is the name of its game.

The honey badger, which was developed at the same time, was able to dramatically improve subsonic performance over the MP5SD (which slowed lightweight NATO 9mm rounds down to subsonic velocities, essentially offering .380 performance and ballistics), while dropping weight and allowing the use of the effective supersonic rounds in other situations with only a mag change.

Just because you only run or only think people run subs in 300blk doesn't mean that's what the round was designed to do or how it is used by a lot of people. And from what I'm seeing 9x39 is pretty much a one trick pony.
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But the 9x39's "one trick" is it seems, equivalent or better than "all the tricks put together" of the 300 blackout.   For one, effective to 300M or more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VSS_Vintorez


It uses a subsonic 9×39 mm cartridge to avoid sonic boom. In comparison, the bullet of this cartridge weighs more than twice as much as the 124 gr NATO 9×19mm Parabellum, with the 9x39mm giving twice the muzzle energy of a subsonic 9×19mm NATO bullet fired from a HK MP5SD.

Additionally, the bullet is very effective at penetrating body armor. It is equipped with a hardened steel or tungsten tip and can penetrate a 6 mm (0.2 in) high-density steel plate at 100 m; a 2 mm (0.08 in) steel plate or a standard army helmet can be fully penetrated at 500 m; however, the rifle is typically employed under 400 m.


This is RIFLE performance at subsonic speeds.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:09:27 PM EDT
Basically 300blk is a "what's the best we can do that requires the absolute minimum work by the AR15 owner." I've never really seen anyone that mattered trying to claim it was the best subsonic small rifle round, or best super sonic one. What it does is cover both areas decently while being incredibly easy to get into.

You can't get much easier than using a different barrel.

It suppresses decently while retaining a reasonable amount of energy. While the actual energy isn't great, it retains it well over distance, which the pistol caliber options it is often compared to don't. The supersonic rounds, if chosen properly, are very effective on suitable game or in self defense scenarios. More so than many other options available in the AR platform. You have to go with something that is a lot more hassle in order to get better results on game or longer effective range with more energy in an AR15 platform. 6.5 and 6.8 definitely have their place and do things 300blk can't touch at longer range, but they are not able to operate in the sub sonic envelope and require more effort to make use of.

The 9x39 very well may be the superior round in terms of ballistic performance, but for the US market it's most definitely the inferior round in terms of potential adoption and use.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:15:36 PM EDT
.300 Blackout is the renaming of .300 whisper
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:18:49 PM EDT
You can also shoot 300 blackout with a .30cal suppressor. 9x39 would need a different suppressor.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:20:28 PM EDT
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Quoted:
I'm getting the "because it fits in my AR" argument here loud and clear.

And yes, I can change the barrel and have 300 blackout. But the day I do that, the gun I do it to loses a fuck ton of capability and costs five times the amount to shoot it, just to become a little bit quieter.

I don't see how we can celebrate bullet selection without any evidence or consideration of terminal performance. I'm a handloader, and familiar with a lot of the hunting class .30 bullets that are commonly used in 300, and NONE of them will perform even close to as advertised at subsonic speeds. In gel, the subsonic 300 blackout looks like 9mm ball ballistics to me.

If a boutique grade bullet is required to approach the performance of the 9x39, it changes the cost comparison a lot. You're probably talking a dollar a pull, or close.

The steel case subsonic 9x39 278gr appears to dramatically outperform any commercial ammo I've seen in gel from 300 blackout.

And it bears mention that one of these is combat proven, and the other is not.

If there were a commodity semi-auto Vintorez here, would that change anyone's opinion? I suspect the answer is no, because there's so much focus on the AR platform here being "the most important thing."
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Bullet selection from 110-220 grains gives people the ability to have a wide range of options. As far as I know 9x39 is subsonic only.

the fact that no standardized 9x39 firearm exists on the American market is a BIG consideration. to use .300BO, all one needs is a barrel. STANAG mags and standard AR bolts work with it. A 100 dollar barrel allows you to change any gun to chamber 300BO.

A Vintorez, if one were to be introduced would cost substantially more than just a barrel. The expense is front loaded, how many rounds would you need to fire to see the ammo cost benefit? If you could buy a .300 barrel and 1500 rounds of ammo for the same price as a VAL, and it would take 5000-8000 rounds of ammo to realize the savings, it seems like a crap shoot.

there is no major American ammunition manufacturer that produces 9x39.

The simplest way to make 9x39 popular would be to make AK-47 pattern magazines that will feed It. Then lowers like the PSA AR-47 and CMMG mutant would have another option.

IMO it would have made more sense for the Russians to just make a mass produced steel case subsonic 7.62x39 round to compete against the .300BO on the American market. Then any existing AK could be fed their sub ammo.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:23:28 PM EDT
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Quoted:

But the 9x39's "one trick" is it seems, equivalent or better than "all the tricks put together" of the 300 blackout.   For one, effective to 300M or more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VSS_Vintorez


It uses a subsonic 9×39 mm cartridge to avoid sonic boom. In comparison, the bullet of this cartridge weighs more than twice as much as the 124 gr NATO 9×19mm Parabellum, with the 9x39mm giving twice the muzzle energy of a subsonic 9×19mm NATO bullet fired from a HK MP5SD.

Additionally, the bullet is very effective at penetrating body armor. It is equipped with a hardened steel or tungsten tip and can penetrate a 6 mm (0.2 in) high-density steel plate at 100 m; a 2 mm (0.08 in) steel plate or a standard army helmet can be fully penetrated at 500 m; however, the rifle is typically employed under 400 m.


This is RIFLE performance at subsonic speeds.
View Quote
That means dick to us in the US. 300blk with 220grn SMK and high B.C. will shoot much farther than most people are capable.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:30:57 PM EDT
Availability, and all you have to change is your barrel. Did this really need to be asked? If 9x39 was already in mass circulation in the US  I'm sure people would have chambered ar's in it, but it wasn't, and so if you have to engineer the platform changes why not just make a round that fits the platform perfectly?
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:31:28 PM EDT
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Quoted:

That means dick to us in the US. 300blk with 220grn SMK and high B.C. will shoot much farther than most people are capable.  
View Quote
It seems you've missed the point and you're comparing supersonic 300blk to subsonic 9x39 here.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:31:29 PM EDT
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Quoted:
M193 eher'thing!
View Quote
Not sure if serious but this IS my take on life
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:34:53 PM EDT
I can fire both subs and supers through a rifle can with 300blk.

With 9x39 I’m limited to subs in a pistol can.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:35:26 PM EDT
Appears there ARE 9x39 uppers out there:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/So-fess-up-Who-s-on-the-list-for-a-TandE-9x39-upper-from-Wolf-/5-2074950/

From that thread:

I spoke with the engineering team of one well known ammunition manufacturer well versed in the 300 BLK and they
stated it would be much easier for them to produce effective subsonic expanding ammunition in 9x39 than 300 BLK
as it was both larger in diameter and had more mass. They are also looking into doing supersonic ammunition for it
as well.
View Quote
Also:

Is This Round Superior To .300 BLK? 9x39mm
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:39:16 PM EDT
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Quoted:
I can fire both subs and supers through a rifle can with 300blk.

With 9x39 I’m limited to subs in a pistol can.
View Quote
Read the wiki on the Vintorez.  The performance of subsonic 9x39 is so good, that you don't need a separate supersonic load.

The issues that 300 blackout has in this respect, where you have to change ammo (along with a dramatic zero shift) to hit targets at 300M don't translate to 9x39.

9x39 handles that entire envelope subsonic.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:43:56 PM EDT
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Quoted:
It seems you've missed the point and you're comparing supersonic 300blk to subsonic 9x39 here.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

That means dick to us in the US. 300blk with 220grn SMK and high B.C. will shoot much farther than most people are capable.  
It seems you've missed the point and you're comparing supersonic 300blk to subsonic 9x39 here.
Whoa there, don't double down on the derp.

What are your requirements?  Normally I am a get both kinda guy, but when it comes to 9x it is outclassed by so many other cartridges it is useless.

Weird flex comparing it to 300blk in attempt to validate it, but whatever
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:45:48 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Not sure if serious but this IS my take on life
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Quoted:
Quoted:
M193 eher'thing!
Not sure if serious but this IS my take on life
Oh, I am NOT kidding.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:47:36 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Whoa there, don't double down on the derp.

What are your requirements?  Normally I am a get both kinda guy, but when it comes to 9x it is outclassed by so many other cartridges it is useless.

Weird flex comparing it to 300blk in attempt to validate it, but whatever
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

That means dick to us in the US. 300blk with 220grn SMK and high B.C. will shoot much farther than most people are capable.  
It seems you've missed the point and you're comparing supersonic 300blk to subsonic 9x39 here.
Whoa there, don't double down on the derp.

What are your requirements?  Normally I am a get both kinda guy, but when it comes to 9x it is outclassed by so many other cartridges it is useless.

Weird flex comparing it to 300blk in attempt to validate it, but whatever
Maybe you should actually read the thread more carefully.

The title is:  "Why 300 blackout and not 9x39?."

you say:

but when it comes to 9x it is outclassed by so many other cartridges it is useless
So please tell me which cartridges do a better job of engaging targets from 0 to 300M entirely with a subsonic load.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:48:32 PM EDT
Quoted:
Looking at these two calibers it's hard to argue that 300 blackout isn't a poor reinvention of 9x39, designed with the #1 consideration being to shoehorn it into an AR profile magazine.

9x39 appears to outclass 300 blackout in virtually every regard, especially terminal performance in the subsonic envelope where the bulk of the .30 cal bullets used in 300 aren't designed to perform.

I DO see 9x39 ammo available (wolf), and I also find examples on YT of AR's built with 9x39 uppers.

It's tested and combat proven, and has purpose built firearms (VSS Vintorez) that are very highly regarded. I'm not so invested in the AR or the magazine as an asset or requirement that the round be launched from either.

If the 300 blackout is doing something better, I'm not seeing it.

Open to a change of opinion so:
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You (partially) answered your own question.
As other people have mentioned, it is just a barrel change (and gas tube) away from 5.56....and yeah, $110 BA barrels from RTB is a thing.

It might not be the best at a single issue, but it does a lot of POPULAR things well, and it is one of the few 50 state legal deer hunting calibers out of the AR platform.

Luckily, cheap steel case ammo is on the way.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:49:32 PM EDT
Show me all the 9x39 stuff on the market.  I won't wait, because there's so little it's just barely better than vaporware.

Meanwhile, I have three 300blk guns which are fully supported by the vast reserve of AR parts, mags, etc etc etc.

This is a "well, on paper..." argument that is removed form reality.

Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:52:10 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Show me all the 9x39 stuff on the market.  I won't wait, because there's so little it's just barely better than vaporware.

Meanwhile, I have three 300blk guns which are fully supported by the vast reserve of AR parts, mags, etc etc etc.

This is a "well, on paper..." argument that is removed form reality.

https://i.ibb.co/Vp9Gr4n/69-D18232-425-F-4-F3-E-8148-B5-F02-ABF60-AF.jpg
View Quote
I tried to not have you wait too long.

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/wolf-performance-9-39-ammo-278-grain-subsonic-full-metal-jacket-vm75065-p-109140.aspx

https://www.venturamunitions.com/wolf-performance-9x39-wolf-278gr-subsonic-fmj-ammo-20-rounds/

https://www.sgammo.com/product/wolf-ammo-sale/20-round-box-9x39-wolf-subsonic-278-grain-fmj-bi-metal-case-ammo

It's very far from an "on paper" argument.

Subsonic, and engaging targets to 300M, combat proven. There's little doubt that this is what 300blk was trying to mimic, but I'm seeing that it really doesn't come close.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:52:25 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Geeze, we just did this one the other day!  

There is a hell of a lot of bullet selection that you can load if you are a reloader,  customizing different rounds for different things.
View Quote
So you're saying it has a wide choice of bullets -- IF you are a reloader.
Reloaders are what -- <5% of the shooting population?

Thrown in the fact that you pretty much need a purpose-built rifle for it instead of the easy/cheap AR adaption available for 300BLK.  So the question of why 9x39 isn't more popular than 300BLK kinda answers itself when you look at it that way, doesn't it?
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:53:05 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Read the wiki on the Vintorez.  The performance of subsonic 9x39 is so good, that you don't need a separate supersonic load.

The issues that 300 blackout has in this respect, where you have to change ammo (along with a dramatic zero shift) to hit targets at 300M don't translate to 9x39.

9x39 handles that entire envelope subsonic.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I can fire both subs and supers through a rifle can with 300blk.

With 9x39 I’m limited to subs in a pistol can.
Read the wiki on the Vintorez.  The performance of subsonic 9x39 is so good, that you don't need a separate supersonic load.

The issues that 300 blackout has in this respect, where you have to change ammo (along with a dramatic zero shift) to hit targets at 300M don't translate to 9x39.

9x39 handles that entire envelope subsonic.
I highly doubt the wounding characteristics of the 9x39 will beat those found with supersonic 300blk.

There is a reason the Soviets still use 5.45x39r and 7.62x39r and haven't ditched 7.62x39r entirely for their 9x39 setup.

Sure, you can sling it far but it does not mean it is a rifle.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:55:37 PM EDT
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Quoted:

So please tell me which cartridges do a better job of engaging targets from 0 to 300M entirely with a subsonic load.
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It was already posted but you are too busy trolling to acknowledge it
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:56:48 PM EDT
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Quoted:
I tried to not have you wait too long.

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/wolf-performance-9-39-ammo-278-grain-subsonic-full-metal-jacket-vm75065-p-109140.aspx

https://www.venturamunitions.com/wolf-performance-9x39-wolf-278gr-subsonic-fmj-ammo-20-rounds/

https://www.sgammo.com/product/wolf-ammo-sale/20-round-box-9x39-wolf-subsonic-278-grain-fmj-bi-metal-case-ammo

It's very far from an "on paper" argument.

Subsonic, and engaging targets to 300M, combat proven. There's little doubt that this is what 300blk was trying to mimic, but I'm seeing that it really doesn't come close.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Show me all the 9x39 stuff on the market.  I won't wait, because there's so little it's just barely better than vaporware.

Meanwhile, I have three 300blk guns which are fully supported by the vast reserve of AR parts, mags, etc etc etc.

This is a "well, on paper..." argument that is removed form reality.

https://i.ibb.co/Vp9Gr4n/69-D18232-425-F-4-F3-E-8148-B5-F02-ABF60-AF.jpg
I tried to not have you wait too long.

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/wolf-performance-9-39-ammo-278-grain-subsonic-full-metal-jacket-vm75065-p-109140.aspx

https://www.venturamunitions.com/wolf-performance-9x39-wolf-278gr-subsonic-fmj-ammo-20-rounds/

https://www.sgammo.com/product/wolf-ammo-sale/20-round-box-9x39-wolf-subsonic-278-grain-fmj-bi-metal-case-ammo

It's very far from an "on paper" argument.

Subsonic, and engaging targets to 300M, combat proven. There's little doubt that this is what 300blk was trying to mimic, but I'm seeing that it really doesn't come close.
A couple retailers selling one cartridge.

Here, I'll do one for you:
https://stores.csspecs.com/9x39-30-round/
Only $45 a mag!
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:57:22 PM EDT
Show us your 9x39 set up OP.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:58:08 PM EDT
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There are those rare armor piercing rounds you are basing your argument on .... no wait, just cheap shit rounds.



I thought troll threads were banned?

Whatever...  out
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:58:44 PM EDT
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Quoted:

I tried to not have you wait too long.

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/wolf-performance-9-39-ammo-278-grain-subsonic-full-metal-jacket-vm75065-p-109140.aspx

https://www.venturamunitions.com/wolf-performance-9x39-wolf-278gr-subsonic-fmj-ammo-20-rounds/

https://www.sgammo.com/product/wolf-ammo-sale/20-round-box-9x39-wolf-subsonic-278-grain-fmj-bi-metal-case-ammo

It's very far from an "on paper" argument.

Subsonic, and engaging targets to 300M, combat proven. There's little doubt that this is what 300blk was trying to mimic, but I'm seeing that it really doesn't come close.
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You just basically gave a three different links to the same box of ammo.  I don't understand the point you are trying to make.   Plus, 300blk was doing that while using nothing but current M4 parts.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 2:59:53 PM EDT
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Quoted:

It seems you've missed the point and you're comparing supersonic 300blk to subsonic 9x39 here.
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Nope. Reading is fundamental. I clearly stated 220grn SMK. Standard sub load for 300blk. Maybe verse yourself in the facts further before commenting.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 3:01:33 PM EDT
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Quoted:

I highly doubt the wounding characteristics of the 9x39 will beat those found with supersonic 300blk.

There is a reason the Soviets still use 5.45x39r and 7.62x39r and haven't ditched 7.62x39r entirely for their 9x39 setup.

Sure, you can sling it far but it does not mean it is a rifle.
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Apples to apples. Look at the performance in gel compared to subsonic 300blk.

And again, on the wiki the performance standards of armor penetration are convincing.

If you have to go up to supersonic loads to get there, you have to ask why you went away from 5.56 in the first place, because at that point you're shooting underneath its performance.

Yes, the reason why they haven't ditched 'tuba and 5.45 is that the 9x39 is purpose built to own the envelope of 0-300M. Not to mention it's existed in service from the 80's, so 5.45 came well after it.

It's a special purpose round.  Isn't 300 blackout that as well?


300 blackout is indeed the best you're going to get in the AR receiver envelope.

But compared to what it tries to imitate, it sucks.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 3:05:29 PM EDT
Quoted:

But the 9x39's "one trick" is it seems, equivalent or better than "all the tricks put together" of the 300 blackout.   For one, effective to 300M or more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VSS_Vintorez


It uses a subsonic 9×39 mm cartridge to avoid sonic boom. In comparison, the bullet of this cartridge weighs more than twice as much as the 124 gr NATO 9×19mm Parabellum, with the 9x39mm giving twice the muzzle energy of a subsonic 9×19mm NATO bullet fired from a HK MP5SD.

Additionally, the bullet is very effective at penetrating body armor. It is equipped with a hardened steel or tungsten tip and can penetrate a 6 mm (0.2 in) high-density steel plate at 100 m; a 2 mm (0.08 in) steel plate or a standard army helmet can be fully penetrated at 500 m; however, the rifle is typically employed under 400 m.


This is RIFLE performance at subsonic speeds.
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Are we comparing the best versions of each cartridge and not taking into account what is available to the American shooting market? If 300 blk is a niche round 9x39 is a super niche round. I hope they keep developing it but it's got a long way to go.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 3:05:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 3:06:26 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Nope. Reading is fundamental. I clearly stated 220grn SMK. Standard sub load for 300blk. Maybe verse yourself in the facts further before commenting.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

It seems you've missed the point and you're comparing supersonic 300blk to subsonic 9x39 here.
Nope. Reading is fundamental. I clearly stated 220grn SMK. Standard sub load for 300blk. Maybe verse yourself in the facts further before commenting.
You wrote:

That means dick to us in the US. 300blk with 220grn SMK and high B.C. will shoot much farther than most people are capable.
Well, you do not indicate whether this is supersonic, or subsonic.

I want to understand what you are claiming. Do you mean to state this SUBSONIC load performs as well at 300M as the 9x39?

At what muzzle velocity?  I'd like to run the numbers to see.
Link Posted: 1/31/2020 3:09:29 PM EDT
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Quoted:

You wrote:

Well, you do not indicate whether this is supersonic, or subsonic.

I want to understand what you are claiming. Do you mean to state this SUBSONIC load performs as well at 300M as the 9x39?

At what muzzle velocity?  I'd like to run the numbers to see.
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And again. Anyone familiar enough to comment knows that 220grn SMK is a subsonic load....FFS....maybe you should google 300 AAC Blackout and read the wiki that comes up
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