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Posted: 6/29/2021 3:45:20 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wouldn't this be an oversimplification of the Trinity? The Trinity is one being (God) that consists of three persons (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit)? Thus, you cannot separate Jesus from the Holy Spirit, unless you begin to explore natures. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/266262/Holy_Trinity_Template_jpg-1994649.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: All three are the same. Jesus. Wouldn't this be an oversimplification of the Trinity? The Trinity is one being (God) that consists of three persons (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit)? Thus, you cannot separate Jesus from the Holy Spirit, unless you begin to explore natures. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/266262/Holy_Trinity_Template_jpg-1994649.JPG No, it wouldn't be an oversimplification. It would simply be wrong. |
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Posted: 6/29/2021 7:33:35 PM EDT
[#2]
Jesus makes it easy. He's all three. Man makes it complicated.
It's not science, it's Faith. Non-believers and agnostics will never let go. Faith is a powerful thing. |
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Posted: 6/29/2021 7:52:58 PM EDT
[#3]
I am still finding my way in faith, but it was my understanding that it is to deny god unto death.
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Posted: 6/29/2021 8:52:20 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Jesus makes it easy. He's all three. Man makes it complicated. It's not science, it's Faith. Non-believers and agnostics will never let go. Faith is a powerful thing. But that's just it...Jesus isn't all three aspects of the Trinity. I must confess that this is a new one to hear, even for me. I have heard that there is no Trinity, that Jesus is not Divine, etc., but not that Jesus is solely existent, sans the Father and/or the Holy Spirit. How did you arrive at this belief? |
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Posted: 6/29/2021 9:51:50 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But that's just it...Jesus isn't all three aspects of the Trinity. I must confess that this is a new one to hear, even for me. I have heard that there is no Trinity, that Jesus is not Divine, etc., but not that Jesus is solely existent, sans the Father and/or the Holy Spirit. How did you arrive at this belief? It’s basically repackaged Sabellianism (a modalistic variant). Popular in the Pentecostal movement, though others fall for it as well. |
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Posted: 6/29/2021 11:13:49 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s basically repackaged Sabellianism (a modalistic variant). Popular in the Pentecostal movement, though others fall for it as well. Wow, but a Sebellianism where all three modes are labeled under the heading of "Jesus" as opposed to "God"? Yeah, that's a new one for me. Very interesting. |
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Posted: 6/30/2021 5:22:35 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wow, but a Sebellianism where all three modes are labeled under the heading of "Jesus" as opposed to "God"? Yeah, that's a new one for me. Very interesting. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It’s basically repackaged Sabellianism (a modalistic variant). Popular in the Pentecostal movement, though others fall for it as well. Wow, but a Sebellianism where all three modes are labeled under the heading of "Jesus" as opposed to "God"? Yeah, that's a new one for me. Very interesting. Jesus is my God. It's just a human identifier, a name. *God comes up in many conversations but when you say the name Jesus is when many become uncomfortable. People who are adamant that they are in control of their lives will always be afraid to let God-Jesus in. Doing so would be perceived as a weakness ... unacceptable. |
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Posted: 6/30/2021 8:00:56 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All sin is forgivable. Man is not perfect, Jesus knows this. But true repentance comes from ones heart not through their lips. Again, to say that all sin is forgivable defies not only the Sacred Tradition, but the very verses of Scripture already cited here. Not all sins are, apparently, forgivable for at least one is definitely not. |
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Posted: 6/30/2021 3:50:38 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Jesus is my God. It's just a human identifier, a name. *God comes up in many conversations but when you say the name Jesus is when many become uncomfortable. People who are adamant that they are in control of their lives will always be afraid to let God-Jesus in. Doing so would be perceived as a weakness ... unacceptable. Ironic how many of those same people who recoil and lash out at the name in the context of preaching can use Jesus Christ as a curse word multiple times a day (often adding the F-word in between) and it just rolls off their tongue without a hint of shame. 
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Posted: 6/30/2021 4:08:05 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Again, to say that all sin is forgivable defies not only the Sacred Tradition, but the very verses of Scripture already cited here. Not all sins are, apparently, forgivable for at least one is definitely not. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: All sin is forgivable. Man is not perfect, Jesus knows this. But true repentance comes from ones heart not through their lips. Again, to say that all sin is forgivable defies not only the Sacred Tradition, but the very verses of Scripture already cited here. Not all sins are, apparently, forgivable for at least one is definitely not. I look at it this way ... Jesus promises to never reject the one who comes to Him. The one who commits the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is rejected. The one who comes to Jesus has yet to commit blasphemy, the unpardonable sin. Jesus will accept anyone who comes to Him |
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Posted: 6/30/2021 8:33:47 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I look at it this way ... Jesus promises to never reject the one who comes to Him. The one who commits the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is rejected. The one who comes to Jesus has yet to commit blasphemy, the unpardonable sin. Jesus will accept anyone who comes to Him Are you a once saved always saved believer, or do you believe that someone, like Judas, can come to Jesus and then reject Him later? |
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Posted: 6/30/2021 9:24:42 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you a once saved always saved believer, or do you believe that someone, like Judas, can come to Jesus and then reject Him later? You didn't ask me, but I believe someone can fall away. I do not believe God would willingly let them go, but He will not stop someone who is determined to leave the faith. I believe God will never allow someone who is "saved" to be plucked out of His hand, but if a person insists on falling away He will not deprive them of their free will either. |
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Posted: 6/30/2021 10:16:53 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: [color=#ff0000]You didn't ask me, but I believe someone can fall away. I do not believe God would willingly let them go, but He will not stop someone who is determined to leave the faith.[/color] I believe God will never allow someone who is "saved" to be plucked out of His hand, but if a person insists on falling away He will not deprive them of their free will either. I disagree with the part in magenta. God very much would willingly let them go. He would not be happy, and in fact the heavens weep when a child leaves. But he will not compel them to stay. I don't think 'willingly' is the right adverb here. I think the two parts of the blue text are contradictory to each other. What do you mean by "plucked out of his hand" as opposed to "falling away"? |
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Posted: 6/30/2021 10:27:03 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I fully agree with the part in red. Our agency to choose is one of our my precious gifts, and in fact, one of the reasons we came to Earth. Part of Mormon theology (and this is probably better saved for its own post) is that in the pre-existence, Satan wanted to compel all of God's children to never sin, remain sinless and thereby return to God. Christ's plan allowed all who came to Earth the right to choose to follow God or turn away, realizing that this plan results in the loss of some souls. I disagree with the part in magenta. God very much would willingly let them go. He would not be happy, and in fact the heavens weep when a child leaves. But he will not compel them to stay. I don't think 'willingly' is the right adverb here. I think the two parts of the blue text are contradictory to each other. What do you mean by "plucked out of his hand" as opposed to "falling away"? Jesus died for your sins, so once you're His He won't let Satan test you so severely you have no alternative but to stop believing. But if you even as a Christian, are tempted to go after ungodly pursuits such that you voluntarily leave the church, then God ultimately won' t stop you. Example: if a Christian decides a pagan religion better suits his needs, then God will let him go like a husband really can't stop his adulterous wife from running off with a lover. |
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Posted: 6/30/2021 10:44:10 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Jesus died for your sins, so once you're His He won't let Satan test you so severely you have no alternative but to stop believing. But if you even as a Christian, are tempted to go after ungodly pursuits such that you voluntarily leave the church, then God ultimately won' t stop you. Example: if a Christian decides a pagan religion better suits his needs, then God will let him go like a husband really can't stop his adulterous wife from running off with a lover. |
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Posted: 7/1/2021 10:55:07 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This doesn't apply to just to those who are "His". This applies to everyone. No one is tested beyond their ability to resisit. Not sure if I agree with this. Without sanctifying grace, I don't know that we can resist temptations plied by spirits more powerful than us. |
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Posted: 7/1/2021 11:05:04 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not sure if I agree with this. Without sanctifying grace, I don't know that we can resist temptations plied by spirits more powerful than us. Agreed. It would seem, by his assertion, that Grace would have no role, though we know that without Grace nothing is possible. |
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Posted: 7/1/2021 11:27:21 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not sure if I agree with this. Without sanctifying grace, I don't know that we can resist temptations plied by spirits more powerful than us. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This doesn't apply to just to those who are "His". This applies to everyone. No one is tested beyond their ability to resisit. Not sure if I agree with this. Without sanctifying grace, I don't know that we can resist temptations plied by spirits more powerful than us. Their ability is through grace, otherwise there is no ability. If he meant it as you're reading it, it would be pelagian or semi-pelagianian. But, he could be condensing the concept of grace giving potentia, a la sufficient grace. St. Paul uses the same language in 1 Corinthians 10, FWIW: [13] Let no temptation take hold on you, but such as is human. And God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which you are able: but will make also with temptation issue, that you may be able to bear it. |
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Posted: 7/1/2021 6:24:14 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You may want to revisit my previous post on the Catholic position, which almost always hinges on impenitence. I don't think one should despair over one who genuinely repents. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Sure man has free will, that has always been the case. It just strikes me as sad that someone who genuinely repents and asks forgiveness would forever be cast out. Someone who makes a stupid mistake as a child, then finds Christ, genuinely repents for their transgression will still be forever be cast out. But it IS God's world, and he is of course going to set things up however he wishes. My opinion on whether that can be interpreted as an angry or vengeful God or not is of little consequence to God, or the rest of the world. It is just an opinion. God knew exactly how this entire thread was going to happen long before any of us were born. I feel badly for those folks who screwed up long ago, have genuinely repented, and are still rejected. But as previous posters have noted, it is God's world to set up however he wants. You may want to revisit my previous post on the Catholic position, which almost always hinges on impenitence. I don't think one should despair over one who genuinely repents. Despair is an order of magnitude greater than me being sad for those who are forever cast out even after genuine repentance. I get sad when one of my tomato plants withers too, but I don't despair over it. I find the way different sects interpret the same book (Bible) of great interest, and how some think blaspheme against the HS is unforgivable, and other sects believe nothing is unforgiveable. The debate is healthy and is why there are so many different religions, sects, and interpretations. People by definition have to believe their religion/dogma/sect is correct, otherwise, they would have to change to a different religion/dogma/sect. |
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Posted: 7/1/2021 7:02:59 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: People by definition have to believe their religion/dogma/sect is correct, otherwise, they would have to change to a different religion/dogma/sect. And water is wet, but that doesn't change the fact that there can only be One True Church because there is only one true Deposit of Faith and one true Gospel message. So if the ultimate goal of a Christian isn't to arrive at the truth, then the droning of theological discussions is pointless. In other words, the goal of these discussions shouldn't be to have interesting talks one can share with their friends at Bible study. It should be to constantly evaluate if your on the right path. |
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Posted: 7/1/2021 7:13:06 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And water is wet, but that doesn't change the fact that there can only be One True Church because there is only one true Deposit of Faith and one true Gospel message. So if the ultimate goal of a Christian isn't to arrive at the truth, then the droning of theological discussions is pointless. In other words, the goal of these discussions shouldn't be to have interesting talks one can share with their friends at Bible study. It should be to constantly evaluate if your on the right path. |
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Posted: 7/1/2021 7:28:05 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So, is that the Catholic Church (in your view)? As a Catholic, the answer is obviously yes. While some will say, "but I think my Church is the one true church so that cancels you out". It really doesn't. The only other Church that could come close in claim, but still falls short, is the Eastern Orthodox Church. As a Mormon, you obviously wouldn't I agree, nor would I expect you to. |
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Posted: 7/1/2021 9:32:29 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As a Catholic, the answer is obviously yes. While some will say, "but I think my Church is the one true church so that cancels you out". It really doesn't. The only other Church that could come close in claim, but still falls short, is the Eastern Orthodox Church. As a Mormon, you obviously wouldn't I agree, nor would I expect you to. To believe that Jesus came in the flesh, that he was crucified and rose from the dead, and He is the ONLY way to the Father, and to confess this before men, THAT is the one true church. It is not men in beards, pointy hats, or holy underwear. |
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Posted: 7/1/2021 11:04:27 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To believe that Jesus came in the flesh, that he was crucified and rose from the dead, and He is the ONLY way to the Father, and to confess this before men, THAT is the one true church. It is not men in beards, pointy hats, or holy underwear. Catholics don't have anything to do with beards or holy underwear. Again, you confusion and lack of knowledge is on full display in these kinds of posts. |
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Posted: 7/1/2021 11:31:00 PM EDT
[#25]
It seems like the way to characterize a sin against the Holy Spirit would be to say that it is actively resisting salvation (and maybe even trying to get others to go along with you) - even though we know better. Someone asked "Why would someone be condemned if they were sorry for what they did?" I think that is the very OPPOSITE of what a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is.
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Posted: 7/1/2021 11:36:52 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Catholics don't have anything to do with beards or holy underwear. Again, you confusion and lack of knowledge is on full display in these kinds of posts. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: To believe that Jesus came in the flesh, that he was crucified and rose from the dead, and He is the ONLY way to the Father, and to confess this before men, THAT is the one true church. It is not men in beards, pointy hats, or holy underwear. Catholics don't have anything to do with beards or holy underwear. Again, you confusion and lack of knowledge is on full display in these kinds of posts. I never said catholics had anything to do with beards or holy underwear. Two things: One, not every post I make is directed at catholics, and two, please try to stop reading things into my posts that I haven't explicitly written. Thank you. |
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Posted: 7/2/2021 12:07:12 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As a Catholic, the answer is obviously yes. While some will say, "but I think my Church is the one true church so that cancels you out". It really doesn't. The only other Church that could come close in claim, but still falls short, is the Eastern Orthodox Church. As a Mormon, you obviously wouldn't I agree, nor would I expect you to.  I wrote out a longer response about apostolic authority (not sure what term Catholics would use for this). But as it was getting far afield from the OP's original question, I stopped. |
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Posted: 7/2/2021 12:08:29 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I never said catholics had anything to do with beards or holy underwear. Two things: One, not every post I make is directed at catholics, and two, please try to stop reading things into my posts that I haven't explicitly written. Thank you. You quoted me and my post and responded with that answer. If you don't want me to think it's directed at me then...don't direct it at me. |
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Posted: 7/2/2021 12:13:10 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: As a Catholic, the answer is obviously yes. While some will say, "but I think my Church is the one true church so that cancels you out". Quoted: To believe that Jesus came in the flesh, that he was crucified and rose from the dead, and He is the ONLY way to the Father, and to confess this before men, THAT is the one true church. It is not men in beards, pointy hats, or holy underwear. Quoted: I never said catholics had anything to do with beards or holy underwear. Two things: One, not every post I make is directed at catholics, and two, please try to stop reading things into my posts that I haven't explicitly written. Thank you. Here you go |
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Posted: 7/2/2021 12:14:29 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You quoted me and my post and responded with that answer. If you don't want me to think it's directed at me then...don't direct it at me. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I never said catholics had anything to do with beards or holy underwear. Two things: One, not every post I make is directed at catholics, and two, please try to stop reading things into my posts that I haven't explicitly written. Thank you. You quoted me and my post and responded with that answer. If you don't want me to think it's directed at me then...don't direct it at me. I quoted you but I wanted to make my answer more general and applicable outside just answering you as well. You are becoming argumentative. I must have created some doubts within you. Beards are Orthodox and holy underwear is Mormon. I didn't think I'd have to explain it. |
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