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Posted: 4/1/2024 9:07:04 AM EDT
Link
Attachment Attached File


WASHINGTON, April 1 (Reuters) - A federal judge overseeing the criminal case that accuses Donald Trump of mishandling classified documents has signaled an openness to the former U.S. president’s defense claims, in a sign that prosecutors might face a difficult road ahead.

U.S. District Judge Aileen Cannon, who was nominated to the bench by Trump, has asked Trump and prosecutors to propose jury instructions based on two legal scenarios that favor a claim from Trump that national security lawyers said have little relevance to the charges.

Trump and Special Counsel Jack Smith, who brought the case, face a Tuesday deadline to respond to the judge’s order.

The dispute is another instance of Cannon lending credence to Trump's legal arguments about highly sensitive records taken to his Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida when he left the White House in 2021.

While Trump has clashed with judges in many of his legal cases, Cannon has been receptive to his defense in ways that could alter the course of the documents case.

“You have a court who is more favorable to the views of one party versus the other, and you’re seeing orders and decisions that are reflective of that,” said Brandon Van Grack, a former Justice Department national security official.

Trump has pleaded not guilty to charges accusing him of knowingly retaining secret records related to the U.S. national defense and obstructing efforts by the U.S. government to retrieve them.

The prosecution is one of four facing Trump as he seeks to unseat Democrat Joe Biden in the Nov. 5 presidential election. Trump has cast the cases as part of a politically motivated effort to damage his campaign.

At issue in Cannon’s recent order is Trump’s claim that he treated the documents as personal under a 1978 law that allows former presidents to keep records that have no connection to their official responsibilities.

Trump’s lawyers argue his decision to keep the records shows that he deemed them to be his personal property.

Prosecutors have said the documents could not be construed as personal because they relate to U.S. intelligence and military matters. The records law could not authorize Trump to keep classified papers, they said.

Cannon expressed skepticism at a March 14 court hearing that Trump’s claim requires the charges to be tossed out, but said it may prove “forceful” at a future trial.

She later ordered dueling sets of proposed jury instructions, assuming either that the government would have to prove the records belong to the government, or that neither the judge nor the jury could question Trump’s stance that they are personal.

“Both of them are completely irrelevant,” Kel McClanahan, a national security lawyer who has represented members of the U.S. intelligence community, said of the competing scenarios. “And both actually favor the defendant.”

Mark Zaid, a defense lawyer who has worked on cases involving classified information, said he is unaware of an instance when a document produced by a federal agency was declared a personal record by a president.

Allowing a jury to consider those claims would “give Trump a fighting chance in a jury trial that would never likely exist in another case,” Zaid said.

A trial date remains uncertain. Cannon has not yet ruled on competing proposals from Trump and prosecutors to delay the currently scheduled May 20 trial until later this summer.
Cannon has escaped the ire Trump has directed at judges overseeing his other legal cases, who he has frequently accused of bias and criticized in personal terms.

Cannon ruled in Trump’s favor in a legal challenge to the investigation filed before charges were brought, which was later reversed by a federal appeals court.

She has signaled support for some of Trump’s other arguments, including his request for more records from the Biden administration to attempt to build a case that the investigation was politically motivated.

In a setback for Trump’s defense, Cannon last month rejected an attempt to invalidate the central charge against him – willfully retaining classified information. Cannon said Trump’s lawyers could raise the issue later, noting it raised arguments “warranting serious consideration.”

Reporting by Andrew Goudsward; Editing by Andy Sullivan
VP
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 9:13:45 AM EDT
[#1]
lol arguing that military and intelligence related documents are “personal” is clownshoes retarded.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 9:16:31 AM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:
lol arguing that military and intelligence related documents are “personal” is clownshoes retarded.
View Quote

this whole charade is clownshoes retarded.  But I think you know that, although you'd never admit it.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 9:21:12 AM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:
lol arguing that military and intelligence related documents are “personal” is clownshoes retarded.
View Quote


Then every President, Vp, and secretary of state and so on get charged and prosecuted or none at all.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 9:21:19 AM EDT
[#4]
Link to case where FJB is being prosecuted for having classified documents in his home??

I won't hold my breath waiting for that.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 9:21:55 AM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:
lol arguing that military and intelligence related documents are “personal” is clownshoes retarded.
View Quote


piles of evidence
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 9:26:16 AM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Max429:
Link to case where FJB is being prosecuted for having classified documents in his home??

I won't hold my breath waiting for that.
View Quote

"The report described the 81-year-old Democrat’s memory as “hazy,” “fuzzy,” “faulty,” “poor” and having “significant limitations.” It noted that Biden could not recall defining milestones in his own life such as when his son Beau died or when he served as vice president.

“My memory is fine,” Biden responded Thursday night from the White House, where he grew visibly angry as he denied forgetting when his son died. Beau Biden died of brain cancer in 2015 at the age of 46."

Longstanding concerns about Biden’s age and memory intensified after the release of the special counsel’s report.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 9:28:17 AM EDT
[#7]
Allowing a jury to consider those claims would “give Trump a fighting chance in a jury trial that would never likely exist in another case,” Zaid said.

Well yea, in his other trials Trump was guilty before the trail began they just wanted to impose the punishment.
Stalin style justice.
Im surprised they have not yet named a supermax cell as his future home.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 9:31:35 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jon101st:


Then every President, Vp, and secretary of state and so on get charged and prosecuted or none at all.
View Quote



Agreed…The way the government apparatus likes slap classification onto everything for “National Security” I’m dubious but agreed the law is applied equally or none at all. Biden, Obama, Hillary should be prosecuted for the exact same.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 9:32:37 AM EDT
[#9]
The US President (all of them) have plenary (total/unquestionable/complete) authority over classified information.   They declassify it by walking out of the SCIF with it,  there is simply no such thing as mishandling in a legally actionable sense.

Even Biden might be in the clear when he left with items as VP.  Primarily because via exec order President Obama extended declass authority to the VP for all documents he originally classified, which is likely to be a good % of what he was likely to retain at the time.




TLDR: Charging a President with something it's legally impossible to be guilty of... yeah a federal judge might have some questions.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 9:41:06 AM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jon101st:


Then every President, Vp, and secretary of state and so on get charged and prosecuted or none at all.
View Quote


100%. The answer is complete accountability, not an abdication of it.

When Trump told Hillary Clinton “because you’d be in jail”, I became an unabashed supporter.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 9:43:32 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:


100%. The answer is complete accountability, not an abdication of it.

When Trump told Hillary Clinton “because you’d be in jail”, I became an unabashed supporter.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:
Originally Posted By jon101st:


Then every President, Vp, and secretary of state and so on get charged and prosecuted or none at all.


100%. The answer is complete accountability, not an abdication of it.

When Trump told Hillary Clinton “because you’d be in jail”, I became an unabashed supporter.


No reasonable prosecutor!
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 9:46:10 AM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jon101st:


Then every President, Vp, and secretary of state and so on get charged and prosecuted or none at all.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jon101st:
Originally Posted By Low_Country:
lol arguing that military and intelligence related documents are “personal” is clownshoes retarded.


Then every President, Vp, and secretary of state and so on get charged and prosecuted or none at all.



Hillary, Comey and Biden should all be in jail.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 9:54:27 AM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:
lol arguing that military and intelligence related documents are “personal” is clownshoes retarded.
View Quote

Yes, and who determined those documents were military and intelligence documents that didn't belong to President Trump?
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 10:04:34 AM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By XxbatraiderxX:

Yes, and who determined those documents were military and intelligence documents that didn't belong to President Trump?
View Quote


Well if something is classified, or previously classified, that’s a good clue it’s not a personal document.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 10:31:56 AM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:


Well if something is classified, or previously classified, that’s a good clue it’s not a personal document.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:
Originally Posted By XxbatraiderxX:

Yes, and who determined those documents were military and intelligence documents that didn't belong to President Trump?


Well if something is classified, or previously classified, that’s a good clue it’s not a personal document.

Right...

Well, the jury will decide whether it should belong to President Trump or not.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 10:35:31 AM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By XxbatraiderxX:

Right...

Well, the jury will decide whether it should belong to President Trump or not.
View Quote


lol you’ve never had a security clearance, have you?
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 10:47:13 AM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:
lol arguing that military and intelligence related documents are “personal” is clownshoes retarded.
View Quote


As president, he can make any document in the use gov personal. POTUS has absolute declassification authority. It is inherent. Just by the president holding a document and walking into the public, automatically declassifies that document. Old precedent.

A pres does not need to ask permission. Who would be the person that give permission to the pres? Who is above the pres?
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 10:58:55 AM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:


100%. The answer is complete accountability, not an abdication of it.

When Trump told Hillary Clinton “because you’d be in jail”, I became an unabashed supporter.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:
Originally Posted By jon101st:

Then every President, Vp, and secretary of state and so on get charged and prosecuted or none at all.


100%. The answer is complete accountability, not an abdication of it.

When Trump told Hillary Clinton “because you’d be in jail”, I became an unabashed supporter.

Thanks for admitting your unabashed support for Hillary. Not that you needed to.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 11:00:55 AM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:


lol you’ve never had a security clearance, have you?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:
Originally Posted By XxbatraiderxX:

Right...

Well, the jury will decide whether it should belong to President Trump or not.


lol you’ve never had a security clearance, have you?

And you've never been president.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 11:05:40 AM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:
lol arguing that military and intelligence related documents are “personal” is clownshoes retarded.
View Quote


Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 11:09:21 AM EDT
[#21]
It doesn't matter.  The same people that were so easily fooled about russian collusion will say any defense Trump uses is clownshoes retarded.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 11:10:50 AM EDT
[#22]
yet boxes of classified documents found in Biden's garage, been there for a decade and that is ok

there is no such thing as equal application of law anymore

the entire system is corrupt
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 11:15:36 AM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:


lol you’ve never had a security clearance, have you?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:
Originally Posted By XxbatraiderxX:

Right...

Well, the jury will decide whether it should belong to President Trump or not.


lol you’ve never had a security clearance, have you?

He's never had a security clearance that permitted him to classify and declassify documents at his whim and neither have you. That rather changes things when you're potus, mishandling of classified documents becomes impossible to prove.

Prosecute all the rest though.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 11:17:48 AM EDT
[#24]
They will drag it out as long as possible...whatever it takes...all the way to November.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 12:36:01 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Scott-S6:

He's never had a security clearance that permitted him to classify and declassify documents at his whim and neither have you. That rather changes things when you're potus, mishandling of classified documents becomes impossible to prove.

Prosecute all the rest though.
View Quote


Whether they were declassified by Trump or not, is irrelevant.

At some point, the documents were classified.  And the definition of classified material makes them mutually exclusive from them being Trump's personal material.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 12:36:47 PM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By slack_out:

Thanks for admitting your unabashed support for Hillary. Not that you needed to.
View Quote


Go back and read what I posted slowly.  Then read it again.  If you are still confused, I'll clarify it for you.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 12:44:14 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:


Whether they were declassified by Trump or not, is irrelevant.

At some point, the documents were classified.  And the definition of classified material makes them mutually exclusive from them being Trump's personal material.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:
Originally Posted By Scott-S6:

He's never had a security clearance that permitted him to classify and declassify documents at his whim and neither have you. That rather changes things when you're potus, mishandling of classified documents becomes impossible to prove.

Prosecute all the rest though.


Whether they were declassified by Trump or not, is irrelevant.

At some point, the documents were classified.  And the definition of classified material makes them mutually exclusive from them being Trump's personal material.

Can't a President make classified material his personal material?
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 12:48:34 PM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:


Whether they were declassified by Trump or not, is irrelevant.

At some point, the documents were classified.  And the definition of classified material makes them mutually exclusive from them being Trump's personal material.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:
Originally Posted By Scott-S6:

He's never had a security clearance that permitted him to classify and declassify documents at his whim and neither have you. That rather changes things when you're potus, mishandling of classified documents becomes impossible to prove.

Prosecute all the rest though.


Whether they were declassified by Trump or not, is irrelevant.

At some point, the documents were classified.  And the definition of classified material makes them mutually exclusive from them being Trump's personal material.

Link Posted: 4/1/2024 12:50:17 PM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:


100%. The answer is complete accountability, not an abdication of it.

When Trump told Hillary Clinton "because you'd be in jail", I became an unabashed supporter.
View Quote
The critical difference is that Hillary exposed classified information, for which she was not the OCA, to unauthorized persons...

Trump, who was the OCA of everything in the executive branch, did not.  His documents never left federal custody, being in a location secured by the secret service.

On the merits Hillary committed a much more serious crime.   Joe did they same being VP and not an OCA for anything, then leaving them exposed to a crack head with extensive foreign business ties.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 12:52:46 PM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By APPARITION:

Can't a President make classified material his personal material?
View Quote


I'm sure he will try to make that argument, as absurd as it is.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 12:55:21 PM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Ranxerox911:

View Quote


Believe it or not, the Presidential Records Act actually defines what is considered a personal record, so thankfully we aren't reliant on the GD brain trust to make that determination.

(3) The term "personal records" means all documentary materials, or any reasonably segregable portion thereof, of a purely private or nonpublic character which do not relate to or have an effect upon the carrying out of the constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President. Such term includes--

(A) diaries, journals, or other personal notes serving as the functional equivalent of a diary or journal which are not prepared or utilized for, or circulated or communicated in the course of, transacting Government business;

(B) materials relating to private political associations, and having no relation to or direct effect upon the carrying out of constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President; and

(C) materials relating exclusively to the President’s own election to the office of the Presidency; and materials directly relating to the election of a particular individual or individuals to Federal, State, or local office, which have no relation to or direct effect upon the carrying out of constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President.


https://www.archives.gov/about/laws/presidential-records.html
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 12:59:28 PM EDT
[#32]
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 1:00:09 PM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By xd341:
The critical difference is that Hillary exposed classified information, for which she was not the OCA, to unauthorized persons...

Trump, who was the OCA of everything in the executive branch, did not.  His documents never left federal custody, being in a location secured by the secret service.

On the merits Hillary committed a much more serious crime.   Joe did they same being VP and not an OCA for anything, then leaving them exposed to a crack head with extensive foreign business ties.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By xd341:
Originally Posted By Low_Country:


100%. The answer is complete accountability, not an abdication of it.

When Trump told Hillary Clinton "because you'd be in jail", I became an unabashed supporter.
The critical difference is that Hillary exposed classified information, for which she was not the OCA, to unauthorized persons...

Trump, who was the OCA of everything in the executive branch, did not.  His documents never left federal custody, being in a location secured by the secret service.

On the merits Hillary committed a much more serious crime.   Joe did they same being VP and not an OCA for anything, then leaving them exposed to a crack head with extensive foreign business ties.


Joe did it when he was just a Senator, with no authority to declassify...
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 1:04:01 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:


Go back and read what I posted slowly.  Then read it again.  If you are still confused, I'll clarify it for you.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:
Originally Posted By slack_out:

Thanks for admitting your unabashed support for Hillary. Not that you needed to.


Go back and read what I posted slowly.  Then read it again.  If you are still confused, I'll clarify it for you.



It could be interpreted in two ways. He chose an interpretation based on available evidence.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 1:04:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Ranxerox911] [#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:


Believe it or not, the Presidential Records Act actually defines what is considered a personal record, so thankfully we aren't reliant on the GD brain trust to make that determination.

(3) The term "personal records" means all documentary materials, or any reasonably segregable portion thereof, of a purely private or nonpublic character which do not relate to or have an effect upon the carrying out of the constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President. Such term includes--

(A) diaries, journals, or other personal notes serving as the functional equivalent of a diary or journal which are not prepared or utilized for, or circulated or communicated in the course of, transacting Government business;

(B) materials relating to private political associations, and having no relation to or direct effect upon the carrying out of constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President; and

(C) materials relating exclusively to the President’s own election to the office of the Presidency; and materials directly relating to the election of a particular individual or individuals to Federal, State, or local office, which have no relation to or direct effect upon the carrying out of constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President.


https://www.archives.gov/about/laws/presidential-records.html
View Quote

 Too bad the case isn't about mishandling personal records.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 1:06:20 PM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Trump MIGHT have violated the law, but it's definitely a complicated question because of his status.


Hillary DEFINITELY violated the law.  We know this because the head of the FBI publicly described the multiple felonies that she knowingly committed.

Biden DEFINITELY violated the law, both in keeping classified documents at his house AND in the irresponsible way he stored them.


The fact that Trump is being prosecuted while they are not is grotesque, and every citizen - regardless of political affiliation or like/dislike for any of them - should be not only outraged, but should also be very concerned for the general state of the Rule of Law in the United States.  

That's my opinion.  Worth what you paid for it.  
View Quote



Yeah, I guess it was worth 24 bucks.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 1:08:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DaveM4K] [#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:
lol arguing that military and intelligence related documents are “personal” is clownshoes retarded.
View Quote



There are a lot of things clownshoes retarded but trump claiming these docs is not one of them.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 1:10:33 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:


Believe it or not, the Presidential Records Act actually defines what is considered a personal record, so thankfully we aren't reliant on the GD brain trust to make that determination.

(3) The term "personal records" means all documentary materials, or any reasonably segregable portion thereof, of a purely private or nonpublic character which do not relate to or have an effect upon the carrying out of the constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President. Such term includes--

(A) diaries, journals, or other personal notes serving as the functional equivalent of a diary or journal which are not prepared or utilized for, or circulated or communicated in the course of, transacting Government business;

(B) materials relating to private political associations, and having no relation to or direct effect upon the carrying out of constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President; and

(C) materials relating exclusively to the President’s own election to the office of the Presidency; and materials directly relating to the election of a particular individual or individuals to Federal, State, or local office, which have no relation to or direct effect upon the carrying out of constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President.


https://www.archives.gov/about/laws/presidential-records.html
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:
Originally Posted By Ranxerox911:



Believe it or not, the Presidential Records Act actually defines what is considered a personal record, so thankfully we aren't reliant on the GD brain trust to make that determination.

(3) The term "personal records" means all documentary materials, or any reasonably segregable portion thereof, of a purely private or nonpublic character which do not relate to or have an effect upon the carrying out of the constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President. Such term includes--

(A) diaries, journals, or other personal notes serving as the functional equivalent of a diary or journal which are not prepared or utilized for, or circulated or communicated in the course of, transacting Government business;

(B) materials relating to private political associations, and having no relation to or direct effect upon the carrying out of constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President; and

(C) materials relating exclusively to the President’s own election to the office of the Presidency; and materials directly relating to the election of a particular individual or individuals to Federal, State, or local office, which have no relation to or direct effect upon the carrying out of constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President.


https://www.archives.gov/about/laws/presidential-records.html


You should stop 🛑. Don’t confirm what people think.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 1:16:13 PM EDT
[#39]
Wow! what a surprise seeing the two posters upset about this








Link Posted: 4/1/2024 1:20:21 PM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Ranxerox911:

 Too bad tbe case isn't about mishandling personal records.
View Quote


No, but it is part of Trump's defense.  Literally from the article in the OP: At issue in Cannon’s recent order is Trump’s claim that he treated the documents as personal under a 1978 law that allows former presidents to keep records that have no connection to their official responsibilities.

Donald Trump was charged with the retention of classified documents.  The defense to this is that as president he had the ability to declassify whatever he wanted.  And while this is true, simply declassifying something does not make it his to keep after he leaves the white house.  The only thing he keeps from his presidency are personal records, which are clearly defined.  Letters and diaries and such.  All official records are the property of the United States, and as such, get turned over to the national archives, or other office, when the president leaves office.  The notion that intelligence or military related documents are some how "personal" is absurd.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 1:23:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mooreshawnm] [#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DaveM4K:


You should stop 🛑. Don’t confirm what people think.
View Quote

Way, way too late for that.
ETA: The term 'political commissar' comes to mind.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 1:23:51 PM EDT
[#42]
I think it would depend on what exactly is in the documents he kept. I would hope that it is some records on the military brass and other agencies trying to undermine his presidency.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 1:25:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: tsg68] [#43]
I’m sure every presidential library has a shit ton of classified documents those presidents retained beyond limitstions yet this is the first time any of these assholes have taken sn interest because muh TDS…

They never even recovered half the shit Sandy Berger stole out of the National Archives for Clinton and Clinton never got charged…
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 1:28:47 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mooreshawnm:

Way, way too late for that.
ETA: The term 'political commissar' comes to mind.
View Quote


The only defense to what Trump did is that others were not charged for similar offenses.  Which they should have been.  Of course, complying and cooperating with an investigation is predictably going to have a different outcome than engaging in obstruction when subpoenaed.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 1:32:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: tsg68] [#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Low_Country:


The only defense to what Trump did is that others were not charged for similar offenses.  Which they should have been.  Of course, complying and cooperating with an investigation is predictably going to have a different outcome than engaging in obstruction when subpoenaed.
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What Trump kept showed ill intent against national security interests by key defense department brass.  He should be considered a patriot, lol.

Tell you what, let’s change the statute of limitations laws and retroactively raid the Presidential librarys of the last 6 presidents and then charge them for any classified (at the time) documents we turn up,  mmmmkay?
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 1:32:38 PM EDT
[#46]
“Allow a jury to consider”.

I’m sorry, a jury will consider what the defense puts forth.  If the persecution doesn’t like it, they can state their case.

What is this “allow”? There is no “allow”.

Personal, not personal, it’s irrelevant to the case at hand. He isn’t charged with misclassifying documents as personal, because there is no such thing. He’s charged with taking classified material, which is prima facie absurd as the documents were declassified.

Additionally, the president is not subject the the espionage act, but the presidential records act which is not a criminal statute.

If it were determined the docs are not personal, I suppose the national archives could request them be returned. However, as we know from the bill Clinton case, the president doesn’t have to and Trump gets to keep in documents just the same, just because.

Basically, everyone in the government can GO AND FUCK THEMSELVES.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 1:33:48 PM EDT
[#47]
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Originally Posted By Low_Country:


Well if something is classified, or previously classified, that’s a good clue it’s not a personal document.
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Originally Posted By Low_Country:
Originally Posted By XxbatraiderxX:

Yes, and who determined those documents were military and intelligence documents that didn't belong to President Trump?


Well if something is classified, or previously classified, that’s a good clue it’s not a personal document.

Declassified material could include memorabilia, necessary to write his memoirs, have his his handwritten notes or favorite doodles from meetings, etc. And he was the first person in line to decide it was declassified instead of needing to shred it.

Kharn
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 1:37:23 PM EDT
[#48]
The law should apply equally they say. Trust us they say. We'll apply it equally after orange.man.bad is convicted. There in lies the problem. No one, beyond the few bots who push such a lie, actually believes it. This is, as it has always been, only about getting Trump off the ballot one way or another. It is not, and never has been, about applying the law equally to others like Biden, Hillary or other high profile Democrat politicians.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 1:38:55 PM EDT
[#49]
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Originally Posted By Low_Country:


No, but it is part of Trump's defense.  Literally from the article in the OP: At issue in Cannon’s recent order is Trump’s claim that he treated the documents as personal under a 1978 law that allows former presidents to keep records that have no connection to their official responsibilities.

Donald Trump was charged with the retention of classified documents.  The defense to this is that as president he had the ability to declassify whatever he wanted.  And while this is true, simply declassifying something does not make it his to keep after he leaves the white house.  The only thing he keeps from his presidency are personal records, which are clearly defined.  Letters and diaries and such.  All official records are the property of the United States, and as such, get turned over to the national archives, or other office, when the president leaves office.  The notion that intelligence or military related documents are some how "personal" is absurd.
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Originally Posted By Low_Country:
Originally Posted By Ranxerox911:

 Too bad tbe case isn't about mishandling personal records.


No, but it is part of Trump's defense.  Literally from the article in the OP: At issue in Cannon’s recent order is Trump’s claim that he treated the documents as personal under a 1978 law that allows former presidents to keep records that have no connection to their official responsibilities.

Donald Trump was charged with the retention of classified documents.  The defense to this is that as president he had the ability to declassify whatever he wanted.  And while this is true, simply declassifying something does not make it his to keep after he leaves the white house.  The only thing he keeps from his presidency are personal records, which are clearly defined.  Letters and diaries and such.  All official records are the property of the United States, and as such, get turned over to the national archives, or other office, when the president leaves office.  The notion that intelligence or military related documents are some how "personal" is absurd.

Dude, just stop digging - you're not nearly as clever as you think you are.  Why don't you put pen to paper, and display your brilliance in an amicus brief to the court?  I'm sure the prosecutors have been waiting for someone with your intellectual heft to weigh in on the matter. Imagine the accolades you'll receive for being the one to finally bring down Trump.
Link Posted: 4/1/2024 1:41:42 PM EDT
[#50]
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Originally Posted By Ranxerox911:

Dude, just stop digging - you're not nearly as clever as you think you are.  Why don't you put pen to paper, and display your brilliance in an amicus brief to the court?  I'm sure the prosecutors have been waiting for someone with your intellectual heft to weigh in on the matter. Imagine the accolades you'll receive for being the one to finally bring down Trump.
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