Self will of ppl.

My ex is praying that I'll come back to her ....NOT GONNA HAPPEN !

Self will

Why did Trump lose?

Well, I think Lee Smith, in his The Thirty Tyrants article, laid out the whole reason behind Trump's defeat pretty well.

And, it had a lot more to do with lack of religion, than religion.


https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/the-thirty-tyrants

If he were a Sadducee, the strict adherence to the Torah is interesting in that  they only existed as a sect for 200 years BC. They are the new comers to Judaism. Their literal interpretation means it is nearly, if not impossible, to be a Sadducee today and comply with all of the Mosaic Law, including eye for an eye etc.

Are you saying Christians don't worship Christ?   I agree they don't worship Cherubs or serpents, but I was under the impression they worship Christ.  

Yes, Christians do worship Christ who is God, and as God; specifically the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity, which is not 3 Gods, but one.  

But the point on Exodus and Numbers is that you don’t even know your own scripture, as graven images, statues, etc. are not absolutely banned.

Were they banned absolutely, then the God of the OT is a hypocrite.

There is only one G-d.

You were the one who brought up worship vs "in general", and graven images refers specifically to worship, not cherubs.  

The Bible is very clear about idols and images of G-d.  There is no "person" in G-d, there is a clear distinction in the Bible between man and G-d.  Aaron's sons died for getting too close, specifically outlining that man cannot gaze upon G-d.  As a matter of fact man cannot even be in the presence of G-d for one moment or he would destroy them for being stiffnecked.

No images.
No idols.
He's not a man.  
You can't look at him.
You can't even get close to looking at him.


This is repeated and crystal clear in the Bible.  No pictures on the wall, no statues of him, he's not made up of parts that include a man.

Jesus is both divine and human at the same time. 1 person, 2 natures, 2 wills. So in worshipping Christ, we are not worshipping His nature as a Man, but His divine nature, as God, though He is both at once and completely. He and God are one, as they both are with the Holy Spirit. This has been explained to you in various ways by many here. No one is saying Christ, alone, is God:

Here is an explanation of the Trinity (good for Unitarians here also):
253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity". The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God." In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary." "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son." They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds." The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance." Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship." "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."

256 St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called "the Theologian", entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople:

"Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God. . . the three considered together. . ."

Now, if you can't understand the Trinity, which is what it sounds like, that's fine. It's a difficult concept, and it can be explored again.

If you do understand and choose to disagree on religious grounds, that's obviously fine as well.

However, to keep insisting that you do understand the Trinity, and that it still doesn't make any logical sense, that's just being obtuse.

While the Trinity is a difficult concept, once you comprehend it, you don't have to agree with it, but you cannot truthfully say it is "impossible". That would be intellectually dishonest.

Finally, we don't worship statues. No statues are or were ever worshipped in Catholicism.

Reminds me of a friend of mine who thinks Christmas trees are in violation of Jeremiah.

Wears a cross and a fish necklace

I mean this in the nicest way possible and am not saying anything derogatory to anyone.

Guys, stop, arguing with the Jew. Nothing we say is going to convince him Christ is Lord. The back and forth will have no effect. Shake the dust from your sandals and move on.

G-d alone, is G-d.

You have statues of what you worship, which is expressly forbidden by G-d in the Bible.

Yes, we believe that:

God makes himself known by recalling his all-powerful loving, and liberating action in the history of the one he addresses: "I brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." The first word contains the first commandment of the Law: "You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve him. . . . You shall not go after other gods."5 God's first call and just demand is that man accept him and worship him.

2085 The one and true God first reveals his glory to Israel.6 The revelation of the vocation and truth of man is linked to the revelation of God. Man's vocation is to make God manifest by acting in conformity with his creation "in the image and likeness of God":

There will never be another God, Trypho, and there has been no other since the world began . . . than he who made and ordered the universe. We do not think that our God is different from yours. He is the same who brought your fathers out of Egypt "by his powerful hand and his outstretched arm." We do not place our hope in some other god, for there is none, but in the same God as you do: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.7
2086 "The first commandment embraces faith, hope, and charity. When we say 'God' we confess a constant, unchangeable being, always the same, faithful and just, without any evil. It follows that we must necessarily accept his words and have complete faith in him and acknowledge his authority. He is almighty, merciful, and infinitely beneficent. Who could not place all hope in him? Who could not love him when contemplating the treasures of goodness and love he has poured out on us? Hence the formula God employs in the Scripture at the beginning and end of his commandments: 'I am the LORD.'"8

He tapped his staff twice.

This is directly taken out of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
2129: The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . "66 It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. "He is the all," but at the same time "he is greater than all his works."67 He is "the author of beauty."68

2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.69

2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new "economy" of images.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71


Now, you may choose not to agree with this, but to say that the RCC condones or advocates the worship of statues when its doctrine expressly forbids it, is being obtuse and/or dishonest.

"alone"

Not part of a trinity, not made up of a trinity.  alone.  One.

Since you are unable to understand the Trinity, you have no choice but to believe this. That's ok. The Trinity can be a complicated concept, especially for those of limited capabilities in comprehending Scripture or theological ideas.

No problem.

Again those cherubs and serpents are not worshipped, so it's not a graven image.  That's not an excuse to make a picture or statue of something you worship, let alone of G-d himself.

Talk about obtuse and dishonest, the Bible couldn't be more clear about images and statues OF THINGS THAT YOU WORSHIP.  Not of angels or snakes.  Using cherubs from the Tent of Meeting as an excuse to have a picture of something that you worship is as obtuse as it gets.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71

I'll walk you through it since it's hard. I know it's difficult, but I think I can help you with this.

ETA: Please don't take offense. This isn't about that. If the above statement bothers you, I can delete it. (I edited it).

Calling me stupid doesn't change the fact that your cult leader and his made up religion stolen from Jews is 100% bogus.  613 commandments nah lets make it 10!  Atone for your sins?  No way this other guy died party it up! Repentance only counts if you change your behavior?  No way just pay some money and commit the same sins every week! Hell (pun intended) you can pay for your sins in advance!  


If you wanted to have a discussion I was down, but if you want to take personal shots at people lfg.

How hard is it to understand?  Just because you don't worship the image but instead the thing in it, it's still forbidden.  It's like you guys don't even read lol

He didn't say don't worship a picture.  He said don't have a picture of what you worship.  Since you're so tootin smart I figure you can understand that pretty easy, you just choose not to.

I'm sorry if you feel I was calling you stupid. I am not, but I do think it's important to recognize our limitations.

I can walk you through this. By the way, I appreciate your interest in this subject, and I admire your desire to learn despite the difficulties you may face with this topic.

Let's start with the basics:

wor·ship
/'w?rSH?p/
verb
show reverence and adoration for (a deity); honor with religious rites.
"the Maya built jungle pyramids to worship their gods"
Similar:revere reverence

Please don't get frustrated now. We can still get to the root of your misunderstanding.

I think you need to address your statement quoted above with the Scriptural passages in the Torah where God MANDATED the creation of the serpent on the pole, the Ark of the Covenant, cherubs etc.

You have said the mere production and possession of images is prohibited, yet we see, IN THE ONLY SCRIPTURE YOU RECOGNIZE, that God mandates their creation. How is this not a contradiction?

Stay classy

Literally the opposite of what the Catholic Church teaches.

See what I mean?

Never heard of indulgences?

Perhaps you could enlighten us on what indulgences are, per the actual Church position on them, as you understand the concept.

2 Corinthians 3

Take a sheet of 8.5x11" paper.

Make a paper airplane.

Unfold it and make an origami.

Unfold that and make it into a Christmas tree ornament.

Certainly three distinct creations, as in a visible manifestation. Certainly one sheet of paper as in its true nature.

Yes. We had a whole thread about them here that I started (in November I think). Most people, even Catholics with poor catechesis don't know much about them.  I suspect you don't understand them either.

I've known Catholics "admit" to non-Catholics about how wrong it was. When I asked them to explain indulgences and what they were apologizing for...yup, no idea.

So, I referred one of them to this:

"The Catholic  Encyclopedia...nonetheless says this about Tetzel's claims:

[His] opinion found no recognition but actual condemnation at the hands of authoritative writers, and was rejected in explicit terms by Cardinal Cajetan as late as 1517-19. By the teaching he laid himself open to just censure and reproach. To condition a plenary indulgence for the dead on the mere gift of money, without contrition on the part of the giver, was as repugnant to the teaching of the Church, as it violated every principle of elementary justice. (under Johann Tetzel)"

Why would you apologize for something you know nothing about?!

the exact opposite is true

How so? An explanation could enlighten some who may be in error.

Or is this a "post and run" job? Serious question.

The Catholic Church is the only Christian church that still forbids divorce and one of the minority that refuses gay marriage. So I’m gonna need you to back that statement up with some facts and links to credible examples.

I am but a simple man,

This thread began with the question about President Trump and Jerusalem.. and rolled around to warnings from a moderator and on to “graven images”,

I don’t always get the former/latter tense I have heard used so often lately.. or was that formerly?

A big “bug-a-boo” about the “graven image” has just rolled up on the scene.

Almighty God himself said “.. in our image, after our likeness”... Genesis 1: 26-27

https://bible.usccb.org/bible/genesis/1

Let’s not get tense in tenses, reflexively.

When “satan” sees a human it is overwhelmed with raging hatred. Why?  Is it because we have the capacity to love?  That in that way, by choosing love, we are embraced by God himself... we are His image, his likeness... but not God. We are created to be above the angels who serve and love God... the Angels even are in awe, some might expect jealous of our place which God gave us...

President Trump is only a man, fallen, right beside each of us... formerly, latterly and today...

PT did place America in the place we are meant to be which was a big poke in satans flaming eyehole. Jerusalem is the latest, formally ;)

The original precepts this thread seemed to be to question about “why can’t I have the candy” ... why didn’t PT “win”.. needs to step back for a SITREP.  

War is hell. Spiritual war being more brutal and challenging... ask our brothers and sisters about PTSD... they know the battle rages and I am in awe of their courage...

I pray for them daily for it is the only way I can help carry the load is to send more ammo.

We cannot fully know God’s battle plan. As Christians, we have the different branches... same vine, but unique... a marvel indeed when/if we work together... don’t let the sappers mess your kit.

I have come to love the Catholic Faith... it is a daily choice, like being in love...with the greatest lover of all, God himself.  I have received an indelible mark upon my soul for that love and those God loves ... I wear it humbly as I can.

By that experience I have come by God’s grace to recognize evil very clearly. Even when it is within the walls of the Church herself, you cannot look away, but fight, communicate, move, repeat.
...it is what warriors do until there is no more enemy.

S/F
To Jesus Christ be all the Praise and Glory!  Forever!  Amen!