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Posted: 12/20/2021 7:34:35 PM EDT
SOOOO... loads of Russian special forces are gonna be parachuting in to the rear areas of NATO forces.  They are gonna be wearing body armor, 9mm pistols are not enough.

Well, first of all pistols were NEVER enough. Pistols take an ass-load of training to be proficient, an amount of training that no "big army" is ever gonna spend on all of those troops.  And, most anyone that knows guns thinks of a pistol as a secondary weapon, unless you have to go concealed.  The big armies never issued a 9mm to all of those troops.  When I was in in the late 80s, all those support troops carried M16A2s Drivers, cooks etc all had them.  They were never under-armed against those Russian special forces.  They were, WOEFULLY undertrained, but that is another story.  Jessica Lynch is a fine example of this.  Her and her friends were failed by their tactics and training, not their weapons.

Enter the P90 and the MP7.  This concept led to some interesting weapons.  Of course they turned out to be useful to people in highly specialized roles and these guys were invariably highly trained.  Good guns, but some guy or gal in the NATO comptroller office realized it was a dumb idea and never wrote the check those companies wanted.

But Currahee you ask, what about the M1 Carbine?  The M1 Carbine was the original PDW concept.  Except it never was used that way either, it became a primary weapon to many frontline troops.  It lead on to the idea of a smaller lighter individual weapon, because a full powered cartridge simply isn't necessary to the infantryman.  The modern assault weapon is an extension of the M1 Carbine idea, of course the Germans did it better and then the Russians.

If NATO had really been interested in defending the rear areas they would have given more training to the rear area troops.  Something well beyond the 40 rounds a year qualification.  If they were really interested in them being smaller, a 12-13 inch telescopic stock AR would have been fine.

Its always the Indian first peoples, not the arrow.

Prove me wrong.

And yes I just fell in to a lot of MP7 videos

Link Posted: 12/20/2021 7:38:45 PM EDT
[#1]
I have a FN PS90 SBR. I love it. My urban trunk gun. I keep it in a FN discreet case that is 20 inches wide. Inside 5 50 round mags and 2 slings plus my SBR. Its my SHTF get home/ urban PDW.
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 7:39:42 PM EDT
[#2]
You're not wrong
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 7:42:19 PM EDT
[#3]
Think "sub gun" size, but with the ability to defeat body armor.
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 7:42:31 PM EDT
[#4]
PDW does fill a roll, but as far as ‘front line weapons’, they are not.  

Building clearing, vehicle assault soft target?  Yes.
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 7:45:04 PM EDT
[#5]
You’re not wrong but it’s making a resurgence for many of us not in nato. I want something better than my 365xl but I certainly don’t need a garand for hotel and camping defense
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 7:45:49 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I have a FN PS90 SBR. I love it. My urban trunk gun. I keep it in a FN discreet case that is 20 inches wide. Inside 5 50 round mags and 2 slings plus my SBR. Its my SHTF get home/ urban PDW.
View Quote
Given a similar starting budget to "be armed" to include testing and training Id rather have a PSA premium pistol kit.  Hell, given an unlimited budget I would take an AR pistol every day of the week.
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 7:49:55 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Think "sub gun" size, but with the ability to defeat body armor.
View Quote
I am completely aware of that, but its wrong and would never work in principle.  A rifle is always better than a sub gun, even in boutique armor defeating calibers. And the rear echelon troops always had rifles laying around (except the officers of course.)
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 7:50:51 PM EDT
[#8]
The coolest gun catergory.

also,

Obsolete concept. A small rifle is superior and essentially just as small (or more powerful or both).
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 7:51:06 PM EDT
[#9]
not wrong
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 7:51:37 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Given a similar starting budget to "be armed" to include testing and training Id rather have a PSA premium pistol kit.  Hell, given an unlimited budget I would take an AR pistol every day of the week.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have a FN PS90 SBR. I love it. My urban trunk gun. I keep it in a FN discreet case that is 20 inches wide. Inside 5 50 round mags and 2 slings plus my SBR. Its my SHTF get home/ urban PDW.
Given a similar starting budget to "be armed" to include testing and training Id rather have a PSA premium pistol kit.  Hell, given an unlimited budget I would take an AR pistol every day of the week.


I like Aeroprecisions budget pistol AR’s. PSA works great too.
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 7:52:13 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
The M1 Carbine was the original PDW concept.  Except it never was used that way either, it became a primary weapon to many frontline troops.  
View Quote

The M1 Carbine was never designed as or intended to be a "PDW"
It was always intended to be a "primary weapon for frontline troops"


It lead on to the idea of a smaller lighter individual weapon
View Quote

It didn't lead to the idea... it was literally developed under the U.S. Light Rifle Program
Of which the entire purpose was a light, compact primary weapon designed for typical engagement distances (<300)
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 8:00:51 PM EDT
[#12]
I agree with OP. The whole idea that armies were gonna adopt a whole separate proprietary weapon with separate proprietary ammo just so rear troops can carry a slightly lighter weapon was wishful thinking. I think the Russians had the right idea with stuff like the 7N21 and 7N31 9mm rounds. Stick with a standard 9mm cartridge and just make it armor piercing. Sure, you kinda need guns designed to take the extra pressure, but they don't NEED the fancy AP ammo. If all you got is regular 9mm, you can still shoot. And you could probably convert most typical military issue 9MMs like MP5s and P226s to run the higher pressure stuff with some stiffer springs and reinforced locking parts. Wiki Shows 7N21 at 41,000PSI, .357Sig is 44,000PSI, so they ain't THAT hot.

Those PP-2000s are neato.

Link Posted: 12/20/2021 8:18:11 PM EDT
[#13]
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 8:21:32 PM EDT
[#14]
They made more sense when the gap between rifles and pistols (size wise) was larger. Now that rifles are so compact, their niche has really eroded. I see the utility in giving low-skill rear echelon troops what are essentially portable bullet hoses, to me the armor piercing part was just a bonus.
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 8:26:19 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
You’re not wrong but it’s making a resurgence for many of us not in nato. I want something better than my 365xl but I certainly don’t need a garand for hotel and camping defense
View Quote


LIAR!!!!!!
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 8:29:23 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
They made more sense when the gap between rifles and pistols (size wise) was larger. Now that rifles are so compact, their niche has really eroded. I see the utility in giving low-skill rear echelon troops what are essentially portable bullet hoses, to me the armor piercing part was just a bonus.
View Quote


A 10.5" +/- m4 is pretty much the ideal pdw.

Even in the infantry I had so much down time when conus I could easily have gotten an hour a day at the range for handgun training when not in the field.
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 8:31:16 PM EDT
[#17]
The M4 is the right answer and still will be for a decade or more.
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 8:33:05 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
You're not wrong but it's making a resurgence for many of us not in nato. I want something better than my 365xl but I certainly don't need a garand for hotel and camping defense
View Quote

Need is such an ugly word

Attachment Attached File


^motel ready
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 8:35:10 PM EDT
[#19]
The best PDW:



Link Posted: 12/20/2021 8:37:53 PM EDT
[#20]
I like the idea of them as a Volkswagen of guns.

You can probably get twice or three times as much 5.7 or 4.6 ammo in a shipping container, same with the guns themselves. In a case of universal conscription that would have been useful logistically.

Everyone gets an easy to use gun that will defeat enemy armor and the guns and ammunition are perfect to maximize shipping space.

The Russians did that with 7.62x25 sub guns in WWII.
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 8:41:10 PM EDT
[#21]
But Currahee you ask, what about the M1 Carbine?  The M1 Carbine was the original PDW concept.  Except it never was used that way either, it became a primary weapon to many frontline troops.
View Quote


Never say never, and while I dislike the m1 carbine, and it was dumb as a primary weapon, it was fine as a PDW.

What's wrong with this?



The dude on the right is a battalion XO. I don't think the brigadier general on the left needs a rifle...you be the judge.





Overloaded mortar crew



This commo guy with 2nd Ranger Battalion is weighed down with that radio. Makes sense to me.
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 8:45:10 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By @CharlieR : it was dumb as a primary weapon
View Quote

Why?
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 8:48:00 PM EDT
[#23]
So the most successful small arm of WW2 was a dumb idea?
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 8:49:57 PM EDT
[#24]
I think originally PDW were designed for situations where there was a much better primary weapon and space was extremely limited - as in a fighter aircraft cockpit or a tank.  You are already kind of fucked if you have to leave your primary weapon - but perhaps a PDW would give you a better chance and escape than a pistol.  One WWII vet told me the only reason pilots were given a pistol was so they could chose death over capture.  He was probably a bit jaded - he escaped from a German prison camp in WWII.
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 8:53:26 PM EDT
[#25]
You're a madman

Link Posted: 12/20/2021 9:16:18 PM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So the most successful small arm of WW2 was a dumb idea?
View Quote

Yup that's a head scratcher for sure

The LRP & M1 Carbine ultimately paved the way for the M16, M4 and so on which seem to be held in such high esteem
Pretty good progress for a "dumb idea"
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 9:18:54 PM EDT
[#27]
PDWs definitely serve a role and should serve a larger role beyond only being available to certain SOF units.  When working and not actively patrolling nor in a fixed position, PDWs make a lot of sense for those whose primary role isn't infantry.  No one wants to have an M4 slung while working, so it gets set aside.  Sometimes way aside.  Sometimes way aside and locked up in the truck or elsewhere.  Instead a PDW could be slung or holstered while working and take the place of a handgun for certain people.  

I admit even a subgun can get in the way when working on a patient or frowned upon when  holding an ANA general's hand as he tells you about his family while his chai boy hand feeds you fried chicken because you shouldn't eat with your un-encumbered left hand.  Or simply because it looks cool going to the mess tent with a subgun instead of the M4 you actually slung all day.

FWIW, I wasn't issued Mp7s or suppressed Mp5s  They were available and I had considerable flexibility.






Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
And the rear echelon troops always had rifles laying around (except the officers of course.)
View Quote


The only officers I've seen not deploying with rifles in combat zones were rated air crew or general officers.    


Link Posted: 12/20/2021 9:53:45 PM EDT
[#28]
Why not just use the m16 with a 12.5 inch barrel and a collapsible stock?

No need for extra parts and training
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 9:59:13 PM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Why not just use the m16 with a 12.5 inch barrel and a collapsible stock?

No need for extra parts and training
View Quote


Way back when the Cold-War PDW project was going on, making 10-12" AR's run reliably was still kind of an iffy proposition.

Nowadays, OTOH, standardizing a "complete" Mk18 as a PDW makes a shitload of sense.  A smaller primary weapon option means more HE/recon/commo type stuff can get down to the squad level.
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 10:03:13 PM EDT
[#30]
You're missing the point - rifles are really annoying if your job isn't walking around with a rifle. Trying to do anything with a slung rifle is a pain, and not wearing it on sling means who knows where it will be when you need it. A PDW like an MP7 can be worn like an oversized pistol while still offering a reasonably close approximation to a rifle in terms of range and firepower.
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 10:05:43 PM EDT
[#31]
The Soviets did very little well or correctly, but the "combo" concept of PM, AKSU, and AK74 made a ton of sense.  Small/medium pistol that can easily be concealed, good, viable PDW, regular infantry rifle.  Good options for various roles.
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 10:10:34 PM EDT
[#32]
I like my PDW weapons the most.  They are cool!!!!  We are lucky to live in these times of the PDW or POW as Q likes to designate them.  Grab a Honey Badger or a Rattler in .300 BLK with a can and see for your self. LIVE FREE OR DIE!
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 10:10:57 PM EDT
[#33]
The stg-43 / MP-44  7.92x33

M-1 carbine              7.62x33


Too bad the 30 carbine wasn’t bottlenecked like the Kurtz.
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 10:13:04 PM EDT
[#34]
I think something like the X95 or the recent proliferation of P320 braced chassis systems are about as good & realistic as it'll ever get on this side of the pond, and the Stetchkin on the other side of it. And I for one would love one of each.

ETA:  then again, a factory folding mini would also do the trick, just not as well as an X95.



Link Posted: 12/20/2021 10:14:49 PM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
You’re not wrong but it’s making a resurgence for many of us not in nato. I want something better than my 365xl but I certainly don’t need a garand for hotel and camping defense
View Quote



Link Posted: 12/20/2021 10:18:19 PM EDT
[#36]
I think it makes sense in a few ways. Anyone who has ever been in the army knows that it sucks trying to do a work detail with a slung rifle. Doesn’t matter if you have a 14.5” M4, 99 times out of 100 they are gonna be put in a pile somewhere with a weapons guard while you move cargo or change a tire or whatever. Something like an MP7 can be put in a big holster on your thigh…that will make a huge difference in situations like that (again, like the intent, with re-echelon types taking care of “normal” business in the rear).

Same goes for day-to-day life on a FOB. They said we had to be armed everywhere we went, but didn’t matter if with M9 or M4. Guess what? Every single one of us with an M9 carried it on base exclusively (and felt sorry for the guys stuck lugging anything else around to chow ). Again, a MP7 instead of an M9 instantly triples the zero-notice readiness of everyone in that boat on your base.

Same for pilots, etc….only downfall is the separate supply chain for ammo/mags/etc.
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 10:21:40 PM EDT
[#37]
Putting this into categories, with a 14.5" AR pattern as a "standard rifle":

1) 12.5" - 10.5" AR pattern

2) 7" - 10" AR pattern

3) <7" "other" pattern


We can get folders on AR and "AR-pattern" pretty easy. I would agree that something between a "full-size" M4 and a pistol is broadly very useful. I lean towards a 11.5" AR 5.56 and 7"-8" 300 Blk with a folding stock.

While it's hard for us "gun people" to understand, there's a substantial group of very otherwise useful people who are burdened by 16"-13.5" AR carbines. I've seen people do shit in indoor ranges with subguns and PCCs that they just don't have the confidence, strength, or experience to pull off with "bigger" guns. I like 300 Blk as a "small gun" caliber, particularly if we can rationalize a sub-10.5" gun, and it can suppress really well.

NFA is a boot on the neck of freedom and of firearms design. We're also not anywhere near close to "optimized" 9mm guns that are holsterizable.
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 10:34:10 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History


It still dwarfs an MP7 or USW. I still think the PDW concept has a place in PSD type work. Small means everyone can carry something with more firepower then a pistol covertly.
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 10:42:42 PM EDT
[#39]
Watched 9Hole try and define PDWs for me...

Mumbled MK18 and XM177E2 the whole time.
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 10:44:42 PM EDT
[#40]
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 10:56:56 PM EDT
[#41]
Relevant video:

Link Posted: 12/20/2021 11:04:49 PM EDT
[#42]
It works FINE for personal defense.  The rest of us are not going against another country, I'd trust mine to keep me safe against some local scum suckers.  Bring your glock, I'll bring my PCC.  And you're the aggressor so you wont see me coming.  

It has it's place, one reason to roll with multiple calibers.
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 11:09:53 PM EDT
[#43]
I like my PDW.
Attachment Attached File


Should pair nicely with the Vox-K when they both clear.
Attachment Attached File

Link Posted: 12/20/2021 11:19:50 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Given a similar starting budget to "be armed" to include testing and training Id rather have a PSA premium pistol kit.  Hell, given an unlimited budget I would take an AR pistol every day of the week.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have a FN PS90 SBR. I love it. My urban trunk gun. I keep it in a FN discreet case that is 20 inches wide. Inside 5 50 round mags and 2 slings plus my SBR. Its my SHTF get home/ urban PDW.
Given a similar starting budget to "be armed" to include testing and training Id rather have a PSA premium pistol kit.  Hell, given an unlimited budget I would take an AR pistol every day of the week.
The NATO PDW specs called out a few mandatory things:

*be able to penetrate Russian CRISAT armor (1.6mm titanium plates + 20 layers of kevlar) at 200m
*have at least 80J of energy after penetrating the armor
*have 1/3 the recoil of 5.56mm

there were others but that's what I can remember off the top of my head
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 11:39:55 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I think it makes sense in a few ways. Anyone who has ever been in the army knows that it sucks trying to do a work detail with a slung rifle. Doesn't matter if you have a 14.5" M4, 99 times out of 100 they are gonna be put in a pile somewhere with a weapons guard while you move cargo or change a tire or whatever. Something like an MP7 can be put in a big holster on your thighthat will make a huge difference in situations like that (again, like the intent, with re-echelon types taking care of "normal" business in the rear).

Same goes for day-to-day life on a FOB. They said we had to be armed everywhere we went, but didn't matter if with M9 or M4. Guess what? Every single one of us with an M9 carried it on base exclusively (and felt sorry for the guys stuck lugging anything else around to chow ). Again, a MP7 instead of an M9 instantly triples the zero-notice readiness of everyone in that boat on your base.

Same for pilots, etc.only downfall is the separate supply chain for ammo/mags/etc.
View Quote

I was in the Army and you were never gonna see pogues doing work details with a holstered MP7

We're not talking about doing work details anyway.  We're talking about every day pogue life.

A short M16 at the back of the office chair or over the back of your chair in the TOC or leaning in the corner of the field kitchen is as good at warding off Russian paratroopers as any MP7 or P90.

I also like how no one addressed the point of my post, that it's a training and leadership issue.  Not a gear issue.
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 11:45:35 PM EDT
[#46]
Bushmaster Arm Pistol

Link Posted: 12/20/2021 11:47:58 PM EDT
[#47]
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 11:49:55 PM EDT
[#48]
Tag
Link Posted: 12/20/2021 11:59:25 PM EDT
[#49]
From what I remember, NATO ran trials for a PDW cartridge, and the 5.7 ended up winning, but Germany had a tantrum and swung their dicks around, threatening to take their ball and go home. NATO caved, and Neither the 5.7/P90 nor the 4.6/MP7 were adopted. It was less about money than political dick measuring, since of course, it ain’t like it was their money they were deciding whether or not to spend.

Of course, I’m of the opinion that the 5.7 in an MP7 format weapon would’ve been quite nice for REMFs, since it could be carried on a sling or in a thigh holster, without being as obtrusive as an M16, but still more than a pistol. Not as practical as an 11.5” Colt Commando, but those didn’t get issued to those guys, either. Doesn’t fix the software problems, but another tool in the box ain’t a bad thing. Especially for armor crews, big difference between a carbine and a big-ass handgun when stuffed into a tin can.

Moving onto the concept of a PDW, it works wonderfully, NATO was just trying to apply it wrong. they excel in roles where one needs a concealed weapon, but a handgun isn’t satisfactory. Undercover work and plainclothes security is what they’re best at.
Link Posted: 12/21/2021 12:10:04 AM EDT
[#50]
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