as requested by @mnew007

There are others here who I'd invite to share their input as well on various models / differences. @joescuba @ramairthree

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Comparison and opinion on the Rolex Submariner.

A take on the “no date” Submariner and options based on the 4 generations of them I’ve been lucky enough to enjoy.

I’ll start out by saying I despise the “bling, flair, status, douchebaggery, etc..” associated with Rolex. Absolutely hate it. So why do I like them then?

History and they are fantastic timepieces. The Sub is known, it is universal, millions of folks have them, the Texas Timex, etc… but why? At one point the Rolex oyster case was the only true – mass produced waterproof watch.

While horology will say the Fifty fathoms was the first true waterproof tool watch, Rolex was the first to step up the marketing and get them in the hands of “explorers, divers, pilots, military groups, etc...” It worked as those early timepieces endured the demands of the users far greater than anything on the market.

The tool watch – let’s face it the Submariner is a tool watch. The current reference is still 100% a tool watch from a functionality perspective – even greater than those of the 1960’s (true heyday) – but yes, it is now a luxury mass produced timepiece. Today’s tool watch is a G-shock.

Back to the Sub, the 5512, 5513, and 5517 are the OG models and what gave the Submariner it’s tough a nails reputation. Steve McQueen wore one as it was the first watch that could withstand a movie shoot, dive in the pool, rock climbing, racing, hot tub, surfing, etc… and he never had to take it off. Same goes for all the adventurous types during the 60’s and 70’s.
All that said, I’ve been fortunate to have owned the 4 digit 5513, 5 digit 16610 and 14060M, six digit 114060, and now the 6.5? digit 124060.

Current state of the watch box is: 16610 and 124060 for Rolex.

Opinions:

5512/5513: Awesome size, light weight, 100% strap watch IMO as the bracelets leave a lot to be desired (compared to modern offerings). Painted matte dials are the best looking and you can find good non service dial examples.

14060/M: Awesome size, light weight, comes 93150 bracelet, also a great strap watch. Last of the lug hole cases.

16610: Basic Sub date model, 90’s-2009 production. Some years have lug hole cases, others don’t. Also saw introduction of the solid end link (SEL) bracelet (2001ish + models).

114060: Maxi case, ugly, ceramic bezel, glidelock, maxi dial, blue lume.

124060: 41mm case, 21mm bracelet, glidelock, new movement, AR on the crystal, lugs are back to “proper”.

So how does the new one stack up to the older references? I think it’s the best to date for what Rolex has made. In an ideal world it would be scaled down to 39.5mm, lug holes, matte dial, and matte bezel – but that is not going to happen. So in terms of progression and changes made, I think it’s best so far.

The AR on the crystal makes the difference, IMO. Ever look at a modern Omega and the dial just floats? Well it’s not double sided like many new Omegas but it is there and kills the “crystal flash”. Long overdue and a fantastic change.

It’s not really a 41mm either. The 6 digits (114060, 116610) are 40.2mm and the 124060 is 40.5mm.

Cons: I prefer the aluminum matte bezels over the polished ceramic. It’s wonderful, but I prefer less flash. Already reached out to LA Watchworks to see if they want to take on matting the bezel.

21mm lug width – It’s perfect if you will never take it off the bracelet, but does leave limited options for good spring bars, nato straps, etc..

That’s really it. Some reviews I watched prior to getting it spoke of the larger bracelet sizing / clasp size being a negative, but I think it’s just fine.

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So you want a Sub and don’t know which to buy? I can’t help you as it is very subjective.

In previous generations I preferred a NATO due to lack of meaningful adjust-ability in the bracelets, and I love NATO’s…. so I’m a BIG fan of lug hole models. That said this bracelet is fantastic and makes the watch feel worth the price tag.

Speaking of price tag, a new Submariner will cost less than a used one.

124060 - $8100 MSRP
126610 - $9550 MSRP

114060 - $10-13k on grey / trusted seller market
116610 - $12.5 – 25k on grey / trusted seller market (depending on variant, i.e. “Hulk”)

16610 - $9-14k on grey / trusted seller market
14060/M - $8-12k on grey / trusted seller market

5513 - $12-40k on grey / trusted seller market (depending on variant).

That is pants on head stupid. Seriously. I would NOT pay $10k for a 16610, sorry just wouldn’t. That said the 124060 is worth every single penny in light of the pricing OLDER models are commanding.

For reference I acquired my 16610 for less than $5k 3 years ago. I would not pay today’s pricing.

So - if you want a Sub, want a bracelet, and don’t want vintage patina of sorts, get on a list with an AD. If you like straps, divers, the Rolex Brand, and want to fly under the radar or get more "fun" pieces....

Tudor Black Bay 58, it seriously is more in spirit with the Rolex lineage than current models, IMO.

Pics:

Very nice op! It was a grail watch for me for a while, but I moved onto other stuff. Maybe one day…

Great write-up!

I'm going to hang on to my 5 digit Sea-dweller.  The new Sub would be perfect if not for the lug width and ceramic....

I hate to see what the brand has become in all honesty.  I never wanted a watch for "investment" purposes, so I shrug at the notion.  I wear mine doing yard work as well, and even wear it to dive with!  Oh the huge manatee.

Honestly I think the 5 digit SD wears the same if not larger due to mid case size.

The SD4K is my favorite dial but cost prohibitive and a little fat. That matte dial is killer though.

Oh I agree, I was referring to the 21mm lug width for strap use.

Congrats on the new Sub. Excellent write-up.

Crown and buckle seems to have a nice selection of 21mm.

Wish Terry made them, I've got a bunch of 22mm I can try.

@FinSlayer83

Thank you thank you thank you! Digesting all that.... I was pretty sure the current reference, no date, was where I would settle on. Cursory reading of your write up confirms it! I’ll dive into this much more.

Good write up! I feel late to the party, especially knowing of the prices of Subs years ago. Just now getting into watches and I feel the Sub has set the gold standard. It's at the absolute top of my list. I love seeing the 'average' guys rock these watches. Keep up the great pictures of them!

Fantastic work.

For me, my favorites are the models about 20 years ago.

Don’t get me wrong, I love  the vintage examples.

But 20 years ago sort of gets us to a point that is just about perfect in size, has just enough luxury points such as framed Lume markers, reached the luminova point where they will stay white and not fade.degrade over the decades, still had drilled lugs, we’re getting SEL bracelets, etc.

Like many things such as cars, knives, guns, etc. watches from 50 years ago exemplify what you might LOVE about examples from that era, but there are benefits to more modern versions.

I - don’t hate me if you disagree- kind of lost interest after the five digits.

Good write up, thanks Finslayer83. My Submariner is a Ref 16800, purchased new in 1987. It has the later glossy dial with white gold surrounds on the hour markers.
I still have all the original Rolex kit, including receipt for $2080 Can. I wore it daily up until a few years ago when I finally decided to replace the worn out bracelet, clasp, bezel, crystal and crown. I left the dial and hands as is, because they have a nice creamy patina. It mostly sits in the safe now, keeping it fresh for when my daughter inherits it.

That is awesome and possibly the best (while short lived) model. IMO.

1979-84 models had the matte dial with painted indicies, and going to the dial style like yours in 84-85. Sapphire, 3135 movement, etc... it was the bridge between the 1680 and 16610.

I hunted for a 81-83 model for a while but they too got caught in the rising tide effect on pricing.

So a week later, what are my thoughts?

I've been alternating between the 16610 and 124060.

124060 Pro's:
- bracelet is supreme on the 124060, as it was on the 114060. Glidelock is the best on the market IMO. Massive improvement over the 93150 model of the 5 digits.
- AR on crystal
- Lume is slick
- symmetrical dial is nice

16610 Pro's:
- lug holes, shes a strap monster - easy to swap between NATO and bracelet
- Aluminum bezel insert - after switching back in forth, the ceramic is almost too gawdy on the 6 digit models
- Weight, it is lighter (comparing heads)

124060 Con's:
- you notice it's there throughout the day, heavy
- ceramic bezel insert - while its very nice and very well done - I might as well be wearing a disco ball.
- date not there

16610 Con's:
- no glidelock
- no maxi dial (such as 16610LV (kermit))

As of today I am leaning towards the 16610 as my favorite of the two. The lack of "bling" and the fact my 16610 is fully brushed and I've got it setup the way I like it (16610LV hands) / no cyclops.

In looking at the con's above I can do the following:
- brush and matte 124060 - pending responses from Rolli works and LA Watchworks who I've used for projects in the past. If nothing can be done here - I'll move it. Long term I'll continue to hate the bling otherwise.
- snag a 97200 for the 16610 and call it a day. Get the bracelet upgrade with the changes I've already done and can swap between NATO's and bracelet.

I'm a big fan of it takes some time to really get a feel for a watch. Going to get some more wrist time with the 124060 before I make any decisions.

I understand your sentiment and fully agree. After five digits, my admiration for Rolex comes to a pretty rapid halt. Appreciation is still there, but I could never own one.

I’m a sub guy but my red 1680 has gotten so crazy in value I almost never wear it out.
I want a nd subc soon

I love the older Subs primarily due to the aluminum bezel. Ceramic gets this huge praise, but I am certainly a fan of a well-used slightly scratched aluminum bezel. Good follow up, we'd love to hear another follow up within a month or two also!

Nice thread OP-
I purchased my 16610 new in 2003- (1st year of no lug holes) never serviced, still keeps +2 seconds per day

I too prefer the matt black, thin aluminum bezel


on a side.. wish I hadn't sold my 16710 pepsi,

Update:

I was very close to sending the 124060 on it's way but realized I need to get to know it a bit better. I also need to look at it with different optics.

As opposed to "how close is it to my favorite reference" I need to look at it as "what exactly is the new reference, and how/where is it better." I also received correspondence from Rolliworks that Mike will take on the project and I should have a call with him this afternoon to review everything.

Been alternating back and forth and I'd like to use a vehicle analogy (whats familiar to me) to explain. If you are familiar with the Toyota Land Cruiser lineup, this might make sense:

- 16610 / 14060 / 5 digits: I see these as the 80 series Land Cruisers of the professional line up. They are rugged, dependable, proven, and harness the "theme" of go any where and do whatever.
- 124060 / 41mm reference: I see these as the 200 series Land Cruisers of the professional line up. They are also rugged, dependable, proven, more powerful, but come at the cost of comfort and luxury.

Then the economics of it come into play, it can not when doing evaluations. For $8100 you can get a new Sub at MSRP (pending wait, availability, etc..), you can't get a 16610 or 14060 on a strap for that. Sucks as they are the most plentiful and fun sport model BUT I still think anything over $8k for one is crazy, UNLESS you have to have the reference. I think the late 5 digit models will continue to skyrocket over the coming years.

So what's next? The plan is a full brushing of all polished surfaces (midcase, bezel ring, bracelet/clasp) and getting rid of the polish on the ceramic bezel insert. This should result in a modern reference with no bling and all business. I used Rolliworks to do the sunburst brush on the bezel of my previous 214270 and it made a MASSIVE difference in how the watch wore and presented itself.

Need more pics, forgive the potato photos as the DSLR batteries were dead this morning.

She will wear nicely on the 21mm strap!

















more to come!

So after back and forth with RolliWorks and LA WatchWorks, I'll be sending it to Edvi and Beau over at LA WatchWorks.

For now everything will be brushed and the crown media blasted.

Out of concern they want to wait on the insert work due to availability of replacement should something happen. I've got two requests with good parts vendors on TRF to get me a bezel assembly. One has been able to get a few so far, which is very promising. Once I'm able to get one I'll send to them to matte.

Here's what I'm going to have done, this is a 114060 they did, not only to the head but the bracelet as well.

Goal is no bling sub.

Thats hot.

I kind of like the original polish on the  case sides, but the matte finish bezel is sexy.

I do and I don't.

Here is my 16610 which I fully brushed using Bergeon wheels on my benchtop



To me the hotness when up +10 when it was done.

I'd do this one but figure since it's a forever keeper I'll send it off.

Any idea if those folks could do something similar (in terms of creating a more matte appearance) on a Planet Ocean bezel and/or dial?

I love my Planet Ocean, but think it would be even better with a more Tudor Pelagos-style brushed ceramic appearance. I emailed Nesbits with this idea at one point and they said "nope, can't do it" and I hadn't thought much more about it until this thread. Hell, I even told them I'd preemptively buy a new bezel insert and/or dial in case it gets jacked up in the process, but they didn't seem to want to take it on.

A fully brushed Planet Ocean with matte dial and bezel would be awesome, I think.

Not sure, can always ask!

I bet they will do it if you are open to a replacement insert, they are doing that for me with the Sub under those terms.

Looking sharp. Ive got a 16600 SD4000 that I want to switch to a NATO Strap.

Do you reuse the spring bars or do you get a new set?

16600

or

116600?

If you have the first and lug holes you can easily re-use the spring bars.

If you don't have lug holes you can as well, that said I use shoulderless bars on straps (both lug holes and non lug holes) and snip them out when I want to go back to the bracelet.

Some Rolex spring bars are double flange and if the head twists on the strap it can in some cases pull the spring bar out.

example of shoulderless bars on an Explorer without lug holes.



ETA: never use shoulderless with a bracelet on non lug hole cases

16600 - no through-lug holes. Picked it up in ‘09 when they announced they were being discontinued. I’m glad I did - the six digit references look overweight to me.

So, I guess we can pick up 20mm spring bars anywhere (not just Rolex). Shoulderless ones should only be used with straps, since they have to be snipped out, which you can’t do with a bracelet.

Any preferred vendors?

I got em from Terry at toxic for years but now use Otto since Terry closed shop.

Bars

My Tudor's spring bars have thicker ends than most of my other watches, so I wouldn't use the cheapo spring bars that are generally available on Amazon or that come with a lot of watch straps. I would make sure I bought good quality bars that have the correct width ends for the watch.

I assume Rolex uses similarly thick spring bars. I may be wrong here so take it with a grain of salt.

Rolex part 23-9291!

124060 is at LA Watchworks and in queue.

Hoping to get it back next month.

Till then it’s 16610 time.

LOVE red subs…it’s on my short list of watches to get.