Not sure how I feel about this...

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presidency-message-covid-19-august-2021

Dear Brothers and Sisters:

We find ourselves fighting a war against the ravages of COVID-19 and its variants, an unrelenting pandemic. We want to do all we can to limit the spread of these viruses. We know that protection from the diseases they cause can only be achieved by immunizing a very high percentage of the population.

To limit exposure to these viruses, we urge the use of face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible. To provide personal protection from such severe infections, we urge individuals to be vaccinated. Available vaccines have proven to be both safe and effective.

We can win this war if everyone will follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders. Please know of our sincere love and great concern for all of God’s children.

The First Presidency

Russell M. Nelson
Dallin H. Oaks
Henry B. Eyring

 Guess they're ignoring the science they don't agree with?

Edited ~ medicmandan

Global church that is trying to continue to get baptisms and continue to build new temples all over the world.

Not surprising that they get behind the political belief that can hinder or even stop progress around the world.

I don't agree with their position but it isn't surprising. Our leadership has done much recently to make sure they don't rock the boat.

I'm real surprised he would say that considering he's a doctor and should know better than push an experimental vaccine that we are the lab rats for.

What do you suspect the compliance rate will be?

87%.....

Excellent, and well-placed statement. Usually you are antagonistic to the truths of Christ and the followers of Christs teachings found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

But this time you pat us on the back with a compliment...

Link

It is a political tight rope The Church of Jesus Christ has to walk to try to keep the global Missionary program going during Covid.

This goes a long way to appease a lot of people in positions to stop passports and travel -- who would otherwise be against global travel for Missionaries.

Our Missionaries here in my area are largely "back to normal" in proselytizing. And they are very busy teaching people.

The Church makes a statement that Trump was pretty much making when he was President? LinkHarmless words that will bother only folks looking to be bothered.

Nelson is a world-famous heart surgeon. Eyring is a scientist, and his dad was a famous Physicist. Oaks is no slouch. Utah Supreme court conservative appointment.

You are surprised that a world-famous heart surgeon recommended a vaccine? Lol, rofl.

Nelson and Eyring both served in the military, Nelson came under fire in Korea. They both have brass balls.

They all love The Church and are very smart dudes. I had the vaccine when it first came out. I sustain Nelson, Eyring and Oaks as Gods leaders on earth who are trying to protect The Church and its people and push Christs work around the world.

Good question. I have no idea.

The leaders did not "mandate" it, they "urged" it which people who don't want to will say: "I don't absolutely have to!"

It is more than likely a statement to appease government officials accepting Missionaries, and Karen antagonists who think we are using Church to "spread" Covid.

@abnk you will appreciate this story of Nelsons combat experience in Korea.

He went (drafted) as a medical professional (drafted just shy of finishing Med School) to Korea. First time he was given a weapon in the military was on the plane before it touched-down in Korea.

Nelson served in MASH units in Korea, and on one artillery bombardment spent the night praying with a Catholic Doctor...

"One instance took place when the M.A.S.H. unit Nelson was assigned to came under attack. Dew explained in her book that Nelson and Dr. Fiorindo Simeone spent most of their night in a foxhole and prayed together that their lives would be spared. Although the two doctors had different religious beliefs, Dew said, “Their combined faith was a boon to both that stressful night.”Link

That was the only link I could find, but Dr. Fiorindo was an active Catholic, and Nelson an Dr. Fiorindo prayed together praying. The book I read quoted Fiorindo and Nelson experiencing spiritual miracles together in the foxhole. I wish the internet contained the story, it is extremely inspiring.

If you guys/gals are following the FP like Jesus said to follow Him ( The Good Sheppard) you’re doing it wrong. But Jesus also said a ton of other things that are intentionally misinterpreted for gain and control purposes-aren’t they?
Looks to me like only Uber leftists are wearing face diapers around here now....

I don't like ascribing politics to the wearing of masks, even though there are probably broad generalizations that are true.

Some people may truly believe that their wearing of masks reduces danger to others and those folks are acting out of real charity, even if it turns out they are wrong.  I won't fault them for exercising their conscience and if my unmasked presence seems to frighten them, I make the effort to keep distance between us.

Others may be just virtue signaling/purity spiraling, but I don't know their hearts.

I don't mask unless a place requires it as long as I do not feel ill.  If I were to be feeling ill, I would try to self-isolate and wear a mask if I had to venture out.

Everyone can find information that supports their views on masking or not. I want to try to be as charitable as possible in interpreting people's actions until or unless they give me cause to believe otherwise.

Christ established a Church.

We believe it is The Church of Jesus Christ.

The Church established by Christ gives us a chance to serve each other in His name. Meet in His name. And worship together in His name.




The Church is pretty-much just repeating what government officials have told, and it is pretty much what Trump said to do to avoid Covid back when Trump was President.

So it is pretty much bi-partisan.



I remember when hard-leftists mocked "take the guns first" Trump for attempting to stop the spread of Covid.

Now the pendulum has swung back. Meh. Meh.

Attributing political motivation to this is beyond absurd. It was absurd when leftists blamed Trump for trying to stop Covid and for Trump launching "Operation Warp Speed" to fix the problem. And it absurd now.

Don't want to wear a mask? Dont. Don't want to wear a mas, and you follow Nelson as a Prophet? No one is going to make you. Nelson just copied-and-pasted from Trumps original recommendation from like a year and a half ago.

But the hard-left saying, "Trump is a lunatic for warning us about Covid, and telling everyone to get a Covid shot from Operation Warp Speed" back when it first kicked-off was lunatics and idiots running their mouths.

And folks attributing politics to --A CHURCH-- repeating the same thing now are lunatics and idiots.

Nelson is a combat vet with bonafide brass balls. Either of the "take the guns first" liberals Trump or Biden are not worthy to carry Nelsons jock strap. Nelson loves America, saved American lives in combat, served America in Combat alongside his Catholic friend, and is sincerely worried about the people of the world.

Hard-left "Trumpbucks" socialist payouts supporter Biden? Politically motivated. Deficit-spender Trump? politically motivated. Nelson? Served America in combat. Combat bonafides. Loves God. Loves The Church. I believe Nelson is sincere in trying to get rid of Covid restrrictions. Covid restrictions are restricting the growth of The Church. Nelson, sincerely, wants Covid to be over.

@H46Driver

You make some very good points. And I agree with pretty much each one.

I agree with you. I don't think it is fair to mind-read someone elses actions. It gets into judging. It gets into pitting our ego over their ego.

I believe it is very, very un-Christian.

My state is not under mask restrictions, and I shopped today with my wife and ran into several families, Mom, Dad, Kids... All in masks. Maybe it makes them feel safe. Good for them.

I feel I am under an obligation not to judge about others. As a conservative, I live and let live. I will mask at work, because it is a requirement and I like my job.

And I will mask if it makes the other person feel safe. Because I try to be a Good Samaritan, and try to show others and provide others safety.

Why were young families with kids wearing masks? None of my business. Judge them? Not going to do it. Followers of Christ should not do it. Mind reading to try to find the worst in peoples motives is not what followers of Christ should be doing.

I appreciated your post, and I think I agreed with each of your points...

Anyone feigning surprise or pretending shock on this has not been paying attention. Let alone that brass balls, combat vet Nelson publicized his receiving the same vaccine he is urging everyone else to get. Link The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has a long and documented history of supporting vaccinations for generations...

"The Church has supported vaccinations for generations." Link

"Its humanitarian arm, Latter-day Saint Charities, has funded more than 116 million vaccinations for various diseases across the world over the past several decades, according to the news release." Link

"Immunizations—a Reminder" (1985 Ensign article) Link

"“We urge members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints to protect their own children through immunization. Then they may wish to join other public spirited citizens in efforts to eradicate ignorance and apathy that have caused the disturbingly low levels of childhood immunization." (1978 Official Statement on Immunizations) Link

This is interesting reading:

Mormons Making Friends with the Nazi Mammon of Unrighteousness

https://www.connorboyack.com/blog/mormons-making-friends-with-the-nazi-mammon-of-unrighteousness

I'd say about 10% of our congregation was wearing masks in Sacrament meeting, but then most put masks on as they went to class.

I have a little girl in nursery who is quite nervous about being left there.  I refuse to leave her with people she doesn't know who are wearing masks.

I did Nazi that coming!

Plenty of faithful Latter-Day Saints lost their lives killing Nazis in WW2.

The article got some key facts wrong...

Jehovas Witnesses are conscientious objectors, and pacifists to war. It is easy for them to say (from the sidelines) that they oppose this or that. Latter-Day Saint blood was spilled killing Nazis. JWs can't say the same thing. Your hit piece started off on the wrong foot. GWs died (at the hands of Nazis) due to their pacifism and political opposition to Nazi Germany. Latter Day Saints died killing Nazis for what they were doing to GWs. Latter-Day Saints (serving in Allied forces) liberated GWs. And Jews. And everyone else who needed liberated in the Concentration Camps.

Latter-Day Saints died killing Nazis. The article started out on the wrong foot.

The next key fact the article got wrong was that Latter-Day Saint Missionary work ceased in Nazi Germany due to the rise of Nazi aggression... Nazis didn't just shut down GW proselytizing. Proselytizing by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints was shut-down in the late 1930s as well.  

Latter-Day Saint missionaries had to --literally-- escape Germany with their lives when Nazi aggression occurred. They would "whistle" hymns at train stations to meet missionaries so the Nazi soldiers wouldn't know they were members of The Church.

Any active member of The Church of Jesus Christ knows this. The miraculous stories of **escape** from Nazi Germany by Latter-Day Saint missionaries are told and re-told.

Link

Missionary work ceased, and Latter-Day Saint Missionaries had to flee Nazi Germany.

Statements in the 1920s and early 1930s don't necessarily mean an endorsement of the Nazi regime, as Nazis were yet to hold power in Germany. And especially at first, Nazis were seen as turning the German economy around, and inflating a deflated country. Nothing good can be said about Nazis. And the Nazis kicked us out.

Helmuth Hübener is a hero of the Restoration. Helmuth Hübener is a Saint of God. Latter-Day Saints didn't die trying to kill Nazis from the inside? Helmuth Hübener disagrees.

The Church was never ingratiated with the Nazi regime, that position from the article is baseless. We were an extreme minority religion in Germany. Germans were scared of Nazis? Sure. Members of an extremely small minority religion in Germany were especially scared of Nazis? They had good reason to fear Nazis. Hübener has brass balls and died a heroes death and a martyr for Christs Church.




The only people not wearing masks in my congregation (a College Ward, in the Midwest) were visitors. There were some people who didn't wear a mask while sitting (6 feet apart) then put on a mask to socialize.



Our Ward is absolutely full of rug rats. I had a kid crawl under my pew and kick me trying to play. So I got into a blinking thing with the kid. He giggled and laughed so loud it disrupted the meeting. My wife gave me the shut-up eye. It isn't uncommon for kids to try to come and sit with me and my wife. Show us their favorite toy, then crawl back to their family.

Your kid does not know their Primary teacher? I am not a Primary teacher and know all the kids (there are a ton, we like making babies in our religion) by sight and most/a lot by name...

Faithful Latter-Day Saint: Ive got tens of thousands of rounds of .308, years supply of food, just waiting for the call to walk back to Missouri! I love The Church! I can't wait to follow the Lords Prophet in all the hard things! I want to be a modern day Pioneer! I want to serve on the mountain tops! I want to get called on a Mission to retake and rename Constantinople! Combat vet Nelson is going to call me personally, and tell me that I am going to lead the Teachers Quorum on a mortar team to kill Jihadis in Istanbul. The Sunny View 13th Ward is going to lead the charge to rename Constantinople! I can't wait for Nelson to tell me to do hard and impossible things for God! I want to die following the prophet doing mighty things!

Nelson: Wear a face mask to make people feel safe, and get the same vaccine I got.

Faithful Latter-Day Saint: But that is impossible! No way! I am not doing that easy thing!



It may not be on the mountain height

Or over the stormy sea,

It may not be at the battle’s front

My Lord will have need of me.

But if, by a still, small voice he calls

To paths that I do not know,

I’ll answer, dear Lord, with my hand in thine:

I’ll go where you want me to go.

Love it!

I'm with you, wife and I have just been having a little bit of a hard time with it, but we're going to follow the Prophet.

It's so true, if we were asked to do something really hard, we'd drop everything and do it.

I really didn't think that article was a hit piece, the guy who wrote it is LDS and is doing great things with his Tuttle Twins books.  

I think trying to have an eternal perspective on these things can be difficult.

I will have to trust your word.

But saying the GWs died in concentration camps, and leaving-out that many faithful Saints left Germany, and the Missionaries --literally-- escaped Germany (in a bonafide miracle) makes me question the research and intentions of the writer. Faithful Saints escaping Nazi Germany, and faithful Saints killing their way to rescue the GWs (and Jews, and everyone else) from the Concentration Camps is an important part of that discussion that was ***COMPLETELY*** left out of that article. Faithful saints did spend time in concentration camps for resisting Nazis.

The article ignored the Latter-Day Saints leaving and escaping Nazi Germany, and ignored huge swaths of Saints who died fighting Nazis for Allied forces, and ignored faithful Saints who helped rescue Jews and other faiths and minorities from concentration camps in Germany.

I think it was pretty shoddy.




Always.

Covid got politicized. First by the left. Trump was criticized by some on the left for locking-down and calling for mask mandates and for "warp speed" when Covid first kicked-off.

Now the pendulum has swung and Covid has been politicized by the political right.

The fact is, its been politicized. And there are extremes, and Karens trying to make waves on both sides of the issue. "Your kids mask accidentally come off? That's child abuse!" "You want me to social distance and wear a mask around mixed groups including old people at Church, you are a commie who loves ridin with Biden!"

An eternal, Christlike perspective is what every follower of Christ should be seeking. Humility. Christlike actions. A Christlike, eternal perspective is difficult to have sometimes.

Not always so cut and dry.

Why did the church excommunicate Helmuth Hübener and not have the courage to back him?  Reinstating his membership posthumously after the war is pretty weak.

I can’t imagine how abandoned that poor boy felt in his last moments.

I feel like it’s pretty disingenuous to claim him as a hero when the church turned their back on him. I even felt that way as an active Mormon.

The reality is there were Mormon GIs killing nazis (my grandpa was one of them)

But there were also Mormon nazis.

Especially in the run up to the war. Naziism was even popular among Mormons.


Here’s some historical pictures.

Attached File


Attached File


Full image
Attached File


This book has a fair and balanced fully historical take.

I love most of what I was taught growing up in the church. And I wish it stood the test of history and reality. It was a pleasant fiction.


Were I still an active Mormon like I was until I resigned in 2019 I would probably do what I did when the church banned CCW on church property, or when they made changes in the temple to appease the feminists, or when they did other things that appeared not to match the values of free agency and eternal truth I had built my life around in the church…

I would start to ask questions.

Unfortunately the answers to those questions weren’t always pleasant.

@matai It takes courage to ask questions and I applaud you for asking them. I hope you find what you are looking for.

There wasn't direct-communication with his Branch President in Germany who excommunicated him (on his own), and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in the United States, which was actively engaged in open-war with Germany at the time. To assume otherwise is to be disingenuous.

Technically, Hubeners Branch President did not follow the technical procedures for a proper excommunication.

The Church of Jesus Christ reinstated Hubeners membership when it learned the facts of what happened... Weak? You are an antagonist to truth.



He wasn't the first martyr for  Christs Church and he probably won't be the last.

People hate The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Our antagonists attack our truth all the time. We have tough skin.

We also believe Gods rewards are/were eternal. Pain in this life? Rewards in the next life.

We dont have to pretend or imagine Hubeners last thoughts. We have a letter Hubener wrote testifying of the truth of the doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ, the Word of Wisdom, and Heavenly Father.



He was treated poorly by his local leader, no question. His local leader is by no means a spokesperson for The Church. His local leader did not follow proper procedures in excommunicating him.

"The Church" reinstated his membership when "The Church" discovered the truth of what happened. His local Branch President is who you should be upset with.




1933 was not in "the run up to the war."

1933 was several years before any war.

They Olympics were still years away, where every Nation visited Germany, and athletes can be seen with Swastikas in the background.

1933? Germanys economy and National pride were rising. Germany wasn't an evil thing to most people in 1933...



1933? I don't think pictures from three years before the Olympics, and seven years before the war proves your point, lol...

There are pictures of Jesse Owens (and other American athletes) and Swastikas. That does not mean Owens supports Nazis. Lol.



The test for spiritual things is 1 Cor 2:14... Spiritual things are understood spiritually...

4But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

I believe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints brings me closer to Christ, gives me a chance to server in His name, and has His truth.




I carry a gun to Church each Sunday.

You are an antagonist to The Church, and cannot wrap your head around the idea that people hate The Church, and would like to hem it up legally? Eh?

I carry a gun to Church each Sunday. And to Church activities. Never had a problem or word edge-wise.





Wait... You belonged to a true and **living** Church and are feigning surprise when The living, changing Church, founded on continual revelation, and continual doctrine and scripture... Changed.

The (living, changing) Church never changing is a false strawman created by antagonists to The Church.




You got me there, you will have to be more specific... The Church has always taught that we are judged by God. Free agency? Choosing to follow Christ? Those are central tenets of The Church.




We know the answer to the question of whether or not Helmuth Hubener was reinstated by The Church when The Church understood what had happened after the war. Helmuth Hubener is in full faith and fellowship in the eternal, living, changing Church.

But you have to purposefully seek misunderstanding and half-truths to come to your conclusions.




Spiritual truth and spiritual answers are found through spiritual avenues. Worship, faith, scripture study, meditation, prayer... Those things will lead to spiritual answers.

Watch the personal attacks boyo. I expressed facts (truths) and my opinion of what those facts mean.

Once again another Mormon with whom I can't even agree with on the definition of the word truth.

No need to call me a liar even if you do it with flowery words.




Which would be all well and good if the church was anything it claims to be. Sadly under any scrutiny the church falls prey to facts and history and falls far short of its proclaimed mission.

Pretty tough skin indeed considering how butthurt everyone gets when someone looks at the facts and reaches a different conclusion.  Heaven forbid they try to warn or help others who question.

And you say OUR truth… does that mean there are multiple truths and as such any criticism of your truth is invalid?  Subjectivism?  Not sure what you mean here.



And that’s how high-demand fundamentalist religions get you. Writing checks god has to cash. Maybe.

From the outside, your god sounds like an abusive dick.

He supposedly speaks directly to living prophets yet they do not prophecy or protect his children.





I am upset at the branch president.  total coward. Not "a proper excommunication"?  Rules lawyering fitting of a pharisee.  Straining at gnats.

Church didn't take any action against that branch president either.

No worries.

I was just illustrating that there were compliant members of the church that sided with the Nazis. It’s not cut and dry. Thanks for confirming my point.

Also, the most legalistic and authority-driven religion on the face of the earth supposedly with prophets getting direct revelation from God, and nothing can be done.

Powerful that priesthood of yours.

See you don't get to claim absolute truth or direct revelation from God and in the same breath wash your hands like Pilate and walk away.




It’s really too bad that no religion on earth has a prophet that talks to God who could foresee something like this even if it was just to save the church from the bad PR that it hates so much. Let alone the countless lives.


Many normal people saw the Nazis for what they were in 1933.  Pity your prophet did not.



“Do not cite the Deep Magic to me, Witch! I was there when it was written.”
-CS Lewis

Kidding aside I am truly glad it works for you. As one who truly sought and seeks spiritual and factual answers and an honest seeker of truth (don’t really care if you believe me) God didn’t give me the same answer.

Actually quite the opposite. I still struggle to contextualize this very spiritual experience... but when faced with the truth, I approached God and I got an answer that contradicts yours.  I didn't rationalize myself out of the church.  I had a spiritual confirmation after following Mormon procedure and studying it out in my mind and asking God.  Once you leave the facts make sense and the bible got that right, Mormonism looks silly and foolish..

But in Mormonism we don’t make room for that. You only can have spiritual experiences that confirm the narrative or they are considred fakes from the devil.

Heads I win- tails you lose is no way to find truth.  It's manipulation.

What a kind and loving god that creates a system for knowing truth that is so easily counterfeited.

See everyone uses the same language.  Feelings are not a reliable method to find truth.



Sad there isn’t a better way to know truth. Like real truth.  Guess we are left with facts and interpretations.  Facts don't vary.. interpretations do.  But your interpretation of the facts will tell me what kind of man you are.  or aren't.




Good. I did too. I applaud you for thinking for yourself.  Your congregation and family are lucky to have a man who takes the admonition of the Book of Mormon to 'defend your families even unto bloodshed" seriously. Unfortunately, that puts you at odds with the supposed living prophet of God and the policy he has laid forth (directly from Jesus they would have us assume) for the administration of his business… er church.

Church website 2004

Reaffirmed 2019 in media and church handbook of instructions.

Just the facts.  Interpret as you will.

But if the church and the truth is living and changing you should have the faith to leave your gun at home, get the vaccine and let the prophet marry and fuck your wife and 14-year-old daughter. (oh wait, that was Mormonism 1.0. we changed that last one)



Laying out facts and reaching different conclusions is not persecution man. Relax.  Quit pretending you have monopoly on truth. If it can’t stand up to public scrutiny and debate what good is it?

Reading is fundamental dude. I said that I and many others started to question the prophet when he came out against CCW.

I know there are threats.

A prophet of God who has read the scriptures and I would assume is at least tangentially familiar with church history cannot wrap his thick head around the idea that people hate the church and maybe some hate it enough that they would like to do actual physical harm to its members?

Only a church run by lawyers would be worried about being "hemmed up legally" over the safety of its congregants.

Hell, he only has to watch the news.  Attacks have happened at Mormon churches before.  I'm sure old rusty is aware of this.

Funny but show me one other church that has been “hemmed up legally” because they ignore, allow or encourage CCW in church. Plenty of congregations fit that bill and some have even been saved from active shooters by faithful congregants.

No legal hemming I have seen.

Try that in a Mormon church and enjoy being hung out to dry just like if you worked for Walmart and tackled a shoplifter.

Concealed is concealed.  Doesn't imply approval by the lawyers running the corporation.

And if your local leaders are looking the other way they are violating church policy just like the nazi branch president and might look forward to a “proper excommunication” or at least being corrected.

You're smart enough to know that.




Wrong.  The argument was created by your very own scripture and prophets.  People like me were simply more faithful and beliving in the prophets and took them at their word.

Mormon 9:9-10

"9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

10 And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then have ye imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles."


"Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles… If a man gets a fullness of the priesthood of God he has to get it in the same way that Jesus Christ obtained it, and that was by keeping all the commandments and obeying all the ordinances of the house of the Lord.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 308."

Unfortunately, every Mormon ordinance has been changed in some way.  I can detail them all if you would like me to explain the temple ritual in its fullness to the forum.  Say the word.

I have countless examples of quotes by your prophets over the years reaffirming my position. And I'll just keep proving you wrong.

Maybe my interpretation of the meaning of the word "is" is wrong too.



I'm sure you think the constitution is a living document and rights are not absolute and god-given by that same logic




All things your church draws near to with their pretty words but in practice cannot stand.  I told the truth, judged the facts and found the church wanting.  Funny that you decry my words as half-truths yet you told the pretty and faith-inspiring story of Helmuth without mentioning the rest of the story.  Half-truths indeed.  

I reached my conclusion through study meditation and prayer and for a different answer. Who are you to say otherwise?  Given our paradigm how do we account for that?

You are free to reach your own conclusions.  I'm not here to convince you.  I was you not long ago (but I was better at it)

I'm here to make sure everyone else gets the full picture and can reach a conclusion not driven by the bully pulpit of shiny smiling Mormon marketing.

Just doing my best.  "let every man warn his neighbor".  

The no firearms message and the masks and shots message both seem to be in the form of newsroom articles, seemingly identical in category.  Are they equally binding for Mormons or is there nuance I am missing?

Good question.

The church took legal action to ban CCW on all church property under Utah law.

Violating it subjects you to a trespass misdemeanor.

That includes temple square, and could be interpreted to include the city creek shopping mall they own.

Though no prosecution I am aware of.

In 2019 they added it to the handbook of instruction which means it applies to the church worldwide. Legal penalties may not exist in all areas like Utah but church policy is standard.

Seems pretty clear to me.

Some try to split hairs about policy vs doctrine. But let’s see what the next apostle in line to be the prophet has to say about that.  

Attached File


We were taught that the prophets words are scripture. Then when the prophets get it wrong the excuse is made that they were imperfect and “speaking as men” but if you publicly defy their policies as just the words of men you will be excommunicated.

It’s a catch 22

They claim no infallibility doctrine but:

Attached File


He’s a peach.

Mormonism has a lot of beauty and some incredible people. But it’s a bureaucratic nightmare run by 90 year old men, lawyers, and investment bankers.

So it sounds like the two cases bear the same weight in the eyes of the Mormon Church.  Whether one classifies these two cases as policy or as doctrine is well above my qualification, but it seems to me that they are both in the same category (i.e.: based on the information at hand, I don't see how anyone could make a case for one being policy and the other being doctrine).  It seems that they are equally binding on Mormons, whether fully, some, little, or none.  Therefore, it seems that if one obeys one, but not the other, they do based on their personal judgment and not on the force of the policy or doctrine itself.  




Unquestionably.

Agreed.

Additionally when it comes to ACTION taken by the modern LDS church the handbook of instructions supersedes scripture and any past teachings of prophets (modern or ancient)

This is where the weapon ban is found but also current church policy on homosexuality, apostasy, etc.

In my lifetime it has dictated policies forbidding oral sex between husband and wife, council against interracial marriage, and even requiring a grown man to seek approval from church leaders before getting a vasectomy.

For many years there were two handbooks, one available to all or most members and another restricted handbook only for bishops and above.

Though I understand that may not be the case now.

Just a little insight offered up without criticism but only facts for people to draw their own conclusions.

I was not aware the Handbook of Instructions carried that much weight.  Thank you for explaining.

Weapon ban?

Linked above but from the Mormon church handbook of instructions, which applies to all LDS congregations worldwide.  They expressly DO NOT ALLOW firearms to be carried on their property. And the church owns a LOT of property. Including shopping malls, office buildings, and 2% of the state of Florida including the largest cattle ranch.

For now this has been largely interpreted to mean meeting houses, temples, the conference center (where you pass through metal detectors) and the church office buildings (including employees of the church of which there are many). So it’s not just churches.

In fact to my knowledge all church owned or rented buildings are dedicated (blessed and set apart as holy)

Link directly to handbook section

Section 35.4.5

“Firearms
Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world. With the exception of current law enforcement officers, carrying lethal weapons on Church property, concealed or otherwise, is prohibited.”

The whole handbook is fascinating in its legalistic format and narrative.

Clarifying your misrepresentations, half-truths, and antagonism towards The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is not a “personal attack.” Not by any measure of the imagination.



You presented a one-sided view of Latter-Day Saint hero Helmuth Hubener.

You missed and misrepresented several key “facts” of the situation.

“The Church” did not excommunicate Hubener, a Latter-Day hero. “The Church” reinstated his membership when “The Church” learned all the facts of the case.

Those facts are not what you misrepresented.




Antagonists to truth almost universally have a situational distant relationship with truth and ethics.

The truth is that Helmuth Hubener is considered a hero of the restoration.

Helmuth Hubener is considered a hero of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. That is the truth.

Link



I am going to point out facts that contradict your position.

You can assume anything you want.

You are not the first antagonist to truth who has a fast and loose relationship with “facts” and “truth.”



The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints claims to be The Church of Jesus Christ.



You create a false narrative then compare The Church to the false narrative, then claim that The Church does not live up to your false narrative… That proves nothing.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints claims to be Christs organization on this earth.

Its proclaimed mission? The Church has many “missions.” Missionary work, bringing souls to Christ. Temple work, Christ defended the Temple when He was on the earth. Farms, dairies, orchards… Welfare. There are many “missions” of Christs Church.

Scrutiny? Missionary work is going-on.

Scrutiny? Temples are being built around the world.

Scrutiny? Church farms and feed-lots are still producing massive amounts of food.

You have to create a false and misleading narrative to try to make your antagonistic points…



We have pretty tough skin in dealing with motivated antagonists who also almost always have situational ethics.

We have answers to their antagonisms.

And we have responses and truth to their half-truths and misrepresentations.



Lies will be met with truth.

Questions will be met with answers.

Misrepresentations will be met with honesty.

Christ defended the Temple, and we can defend The Church of Jesus Christ in the same way.

Warn people? You misrepresented and left-out key parts of the story around Latter-Day Saint hero Helmuth Hubener. Warn people? You don’t warn people by saying “fire” in a theater when there is no fire, and you just don’t like the theater owner.



Actually, eternal rewards for our souls is like the entire foundation of Christianity. I am pretty sure its like the basis of like every major religion in the world. Eternal rewards for following Christ is a primary tenet of The Church of Jesus Christ.

And faithful Latter-Day Saint, Nazi-fighter Helmuth Hubener wrote about his eternal rewards himself in his final words.

He had faith.

Rewards in the next life is a universal belief of pretty much every Christian denomination.



For promising His followers eternal life and eternal rewards? That sounds like God loves us.

God is wonderful for His promises to those who follow Him.

The beliefs and teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are not unique here.

You are waiting for Valhalla or whatever your pagan beliefs give you, correct? Everyone else is waiting for eternal rewards in Heaven.



That is pretty subjective on your part.

Can the living Prophets remove agency? Christ didn’t remove the agency of those who antagonized Him during his mortal ministry.

The living Prophets can’t remove someone’s agency. They cannot stop people from sinning.

The living Prophets have pushed missionary work, temple building, and the welfare program of The Church. Protect His children? The living prophets have maintained Gods work to protect His children.

Need to be Baptized in His name? The Church can do that.

Worship in a Temple as Christ did? The Church can do that.

Hungry? The Church has farms.

It is pretty seriously disingenuous to say that the living Prophets and the living Church does not protect Gods children.

Did you not see shelves empty within the last year?



You are the one straining to try condemn the entire Church when *one* person broke Church policy to excommunicate Latter-Day Saint hero Helmuth Hubener.

You are the one straining at gnats here.

The Church considers Helmuth Hubener a Latter-Day Saint hero.



You don’t know if that is entirely true or not you weren’t there.  His judgement –according to Church doctrine—will come in a “final judgement” with God. I believe in God, and I fear my “final judgement” with God. No one knows that guys name in The Church. Everyone knows Latter-Day Hero Helmuth Hubeners name.



The Priesthood is Gods power, and it is eternal.

God will be everyone’s ultimate judge.

You are misrepresenting and creating a false strawman that The Church is to blame for what happened under Nazi rule in Germany. That is a wild and ferocious leap, even for the most ethically-challenged antagonist to The Church.

Helmuth Hubener, and other faithful Latter-Day Saints fought Nazis from the inside. A heroic act. They write it is their Priesthood, their belief in and membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints that drove them to fight Nazis.

Trying to tie The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to Nazis is typical antagonistic mental and ethical gymnastics.



I am going to stick around and answer your criticisms of The Church.

Wash my hands and walk away?

I will clarify your misrepresentations and answer your half-truths with faith and truth.

The Church and individuals can receive direct revelation from God, and other people can still have their agency.

Nazis did bad things to people? Helmuth Hubener was killed by the Nazis for fighting the Nazis? Hubeners Church friends were held in prison camps for their beliefs and for helping Hubener?

God is still true. Helmuth Hubeners faith and beliefs –and his standing up to his antagonists-- help sustain my faith and beliefs.

Walk away? Lol, rofl.



The Nazis had to kick Latter-Day Saint Missionaries out of their country with the threat of force. Our missionaries had to literally escape with their lives. It was miraculous that they escaped.

Bad PR? Eh? Our missionaries had to hide and only communicated by whistling hymns in order to get out with their lives.

Bad PR? A prophet had sent Latter-Day missionaries to Germany to bring Christs peace to the country. The Prophet tried... the Prophets efforts were rejected, obviously.

A Prophet was rejected? That is all over the scriptures, bro. Bad PR? How do you look at yourself in the mirror?



The Prophet and The Church sends missionaries, and has Churches in many countries that are the enemy to the US. Missionaries are currently in Russia, and parts of China. They are both enemies to the US. With weapons aimed at the US right this second. Hopefully missionary work prevails, and peoples hearts are turned to Christ. The Prophet is doing his mandated job by God in spreading Christs truth around the world.

Many people saw a growing German economy, and many companies had products made in Germany at the time. To say otherwise is disingenuous. Until war actually broke out, the shot-callers that went to war against Germany were hoping for peace.



“I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.”
? C.S. Lewis



Your problem is that I catch you not telling the whole story when it comes to historical things of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

You blame “The Church” for what happened to Helmuth Hubener when he wasn’t killed by The Church he was killed by the German government. Which, at the time had no problem killing its people.
You misrepresent the teachings of The Church, and present a false narrative.

If you prayed about the misunderstood “truths” (quotes used on purpose) you understood about Helmuth Hubener, you probably did not get a “straight” answer from God.

“Facts” won’t make sense if you don’t understand the facts in the first place.

Spiritual things can only be understood spiritually… You claim spiritual confirmation and then also mock God all in the same post. Your foundation has moved in your own words in your own thread. And we are supposed to trust your position? Laughable.



The Bible teaches us where to go to find Gods truth… Prayer. James 1:5.

God is the source of Gods truth.

Anyone of any faith is entitled to spiritual experiences according to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

The Bible teaches that prayers is the source of Gods truth, and spiritual experiences are how we understand and are taught spiritual things…



Seeking divine answers to prayer is in the scriptures. Evil teaches a man not to pray. I do not believe that it is manipulation. Prayer and spiritual experiences are how we are brought to know and understand God spiritually.

I do not believe that it is manipulation.

You are entitled to your spiritual experiences. But on one hand you present misrepresentations of The Church, and mock God, and on the other claim to have a spiritual experience. I hope you can see you have painted yourself into a corner of doubt here.



The method described in the Bible for finding Gods truth… Prayer and spiritual experience… “Feelings” don’t really describe what the scriptures describes. The scriptures talk about God placing knowledge in our minds and hearts from spiritual worship. That ~might be described as “feelings” but that definition does not cut it.

The problem is describing receiving light and knowledge from God to someone else. How do you describe spiritual experience. Someone without a lot of vocabulary words will describe, “feelings” and think they are correct.

Antagonists will then turn around and say: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is founded on “feelings.”

An incorrect antagonism.

A primary tenet of faith in The Church is revelation from God. Knowledge from God. “Feelings” is a vocabulary word to describe spiritual experiences that might not fit any other words.



The problem is not the facts, when you know all the facts.

You misrepresented and left-out key facts surrounding Latter-Day Hero Helmuth Hubener, for instance, in your attempt to castigate the entire Church over Hubeners faithfulness to The Church and his getting killed by Nazis.

Antagonists are caught all the time quote-mining, leaving out key details, and misrepresenting the truth.

And then pointing to their false narrative: Look at the truth!

When their false narrative isn’t the truth.



I sustain combat-veteran (Korea) Nelson as a living Prophet of God.

Nelson isn’t right now telling Latter-Day Saints to kill anyone, hopefully it never comes to that.

Nelson was drafted as a Dr, and served a combat-tour in Korea and saved lives under-fire.

If you defend your family with force against an aggressor you are not violating any Church policy.

Business? Lol, rofl. Business?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints teaches self-reliance, savings, and “being prepared” as a key tenet of its “welfare” mission.

Business? Lol, rofl. Business? Nelson was a world-famous heart surgeon. He was independently wealthy before his Church service.

Business? Lol, rofl. You saw empty store shelves, and shortages of food like a year ago. Recently. Every organization and Church would be wise to follow the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Business? You saw empty store shelves, recently, right? You thought, “Sure wished I owned a farm right now.” Right? Business? Lol, rofl.

Every organization (including the government) would be wise to follow the doctrine of preparedness taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

You recently saw empty store shelves, and thought, “tHoSe DArN mORmaNs DiDnT ProPHesY ThIS!”

Lol, rofl. On one hand you castigate The Church for not forseeing anything, then castigate the Church for having savings, farms, and preparations.



I have faith on one hand, and I always conceal carry a gun on the other.

As an antagonist to faith, you do not get to create scenarios for me.

I can do both.

I sustain combat-vet Nelson as a true Prophet. And I carry a gun. Both things can be true at the same time.



I got the vaccine. No side effects. I recommend the vaccine to anyone not on a medical restriction.

I got the vaccine before the Prophet. They showed up at work with the vaccine in late Dec 2020. Combat-lifesaver Nelson got the vaccine in Jan 2021.




You are a Viking/Pagan? You don’t really have any room to talk, right?

Intimacy usually occurs in ~most Biblical marriages. It is a part of most marriages.

And back in the 1800s (and Bible times) women married young. Their choice in their teenage years was (on the frontier in the 1800s) who to marry. It wasn’t where to go to College. Or to be a doctor or lawyer or nurse or teacher. It was who to marry. I can’t go back in time and castigate women for choosing to marry young on the frontier. It is what they did.

But if you are talking about Smith… Both you and I know you won’t be able to point to Helen Mar Kimballs journal or articles she wrote or book she wrote to find her alone with Smith after their “sealing.” You won’t be able to point to any intimacy in the Biblical sense between the two.



There isn’t any policy that restricts concealed carry per se. The Church issued a policy that exclusively is restricted to Churches, that has no teeth, no real traction, and gives legal protection to The Church if someone makes a mistake with a gun in a Church.

Antagonists enter our Church worship services and disrupt our services sometimes. All it would take is for a person to shoot an unarmed antagonist just running their mouth, and without this policy, The Church would be writing checks, instead of the shooter technically breaking policy.

It gives legal distance between The –global—Church and a “bad shoot” situation.

A “good shoot?” Pats on the back, high-fives, and “glad brother ____ was carrying that day!”

Everyone I know who carried before the policy still carries today. The most teeth the policy has is they can ask me to leave, and if I don’t then they can make me leave. No real teeth.



In California years ago, a group of pro-gay Church-haters entered a Latter-Day Saint service, and disrupted Church with an pro-gay anti-religion demonstration. Feelings were hot after the 2008 vote in California.

The Bishop got to the pulpit and essentially said, “sit quietly and worship with us, or leave, and if you don’t we will call the police.”

The pro-gay Church-haters had cameras, and were filming the incident. Trying to create an incident. Trying to hem folks up. They are not trespassing until they are asked to leave.

The Bishop handled it perfectly, and everyone in the congregation let the Bishop set the tone and take the leadership role. And the group left after they were asked to leave. We had given them no ammunition, and they looked like the bad guys. They disrupted our service, and we kindly asked them to join us or leave.

They left The Church of Jesus Christ building, walked down the street and disrupted a protestant worship service. There, congregants assaulted them.

Antagonists to The Church would love for a member of The Church to take the bait, and shoot or assault them. The congregation and Church were the pro-gay folks got hit? Hemmed-up legally.

You are unfamiliar with that concept? Instigate a situation, force a higher response than “technically, legally” justified then claim abuse? You are unfamiliar with that concept. It happens all the time.



Russel M. Nelson is a combat-lifesaver from the Korean War.

You are not worthy to carry his jock strap with a pole, let alone mock him. Antagonists usually have no class. You are living up to the stereotype.

I carry a gun to Church each week. Any good and moral person should.

I shoot and miss, its on me. I shoot the bad guy, I am going to get pats on the back, and high-fives. The Church policy gives The Church legal wiggle-room. An antagonist starts shouting us down in our worship service and an old guy loses his cool and shoots an unarmed individual for just running their mouth. The shooter goes to jail, and The Church has legal wiggle-room to say, “cant blame us, the shooter was a psycho who broke Church rules.”

“Hey Saints, people hate us, make sure to carry a gun to Church we love violence” would be music to the ears of people who hate our guts for our Christ-centered faith.



You can speculate and postulate all you want about what could happen.

I can speculate and postulate that the outcome will be fine if I shoot an active shooter, and don’t miss. Hopefully I never find out.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does not compare to a stand-alone Church with no influence or ministry outside their local area. Our policies affect Churches all around the world. In many parts of the US, people can conceal carry. Australia? Japan? They don’t have access to guns. At all.

I think I will be fine if I act within the law on a clear-cut use of force instance at Church. I will be hung out to dry by The Church if I miss and hit an innocent bystander.

I carry in Church. I encourage any other good and moral person to carry in church also.



You are wrong. The New Testament “changed” (added to line upon line) doctrines from the Old Testament.

The Book of Mormon added to the doctrines of Christ from the New Testament and Old Testament.

God never changes. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Our understanding of God can grow through the living, changing Church. As The Church gains more and more understanding of (never changing) God, we will get closer and closer to God.

The Latter-Day Saint Prophets have always maintained that revelation will be continuous. The Church has always maintained that –while God does not change—our knowledge, understanding, and scripture will grow and expand.

You used a scripture that stated that God does not change to accuse The Church of changing. Both things can be truth. God can be the same yesterday today and forever, and The Church (led by Prophets) can bring us closer to God. Both things can be true. God doesn’t change. The Church can “change” and grow closer to God.



Smith made changes in the ordinances during his own lifetime as he (and The Church) believes in continual revelation.

Smith did not receive all of the doctrines of The Church in one solitary instance. Smith received them line upon line, and changed them in his own lifetime. There is still revelation coming to The Church, as we believe in continual revelation.

Christ “changed” religious practices during his earthly ministry.  Even during Christs ministry, things changed. First He taught that the gospel should be taught to the lost sheep of the House of Israel (Matt 15:24)  and Christ forbade His apostles from going to the Gentiles (Matt 10: 5-6) That later changed.

The Ordinances instituted in Smiths time… Baptism, Confirmation, Temple work… Still can get the same ordinance now as back then. Wording is different or changed as the living, changing Church changes? Christ originally taught His apostles to not go to the Gentiles, then Christs message “changed.” Things “change” in a living Church.

"Things never change, things wont ever change!" Didn't apply to Smith, and does not apply to The Church today. It is a tool and wedge antagonists to truth use.



You won’t ever be able to argue that you have class.

Christ changed His message on who to teach to His apostles during His ministry. First He told them not to teach the Gentiles. Then he told them to teach the Gentiles. Things “change” in a living, changing Church.

The Church has been told to “eat your vitamin pills, get your rest” because of the significant changes that are approaching.

Link



The Church changes. The Church changed when Christ himself was in charge on the earth.

It changes now.

Meh.

Circumcision was a thing until Galations 6:15, after Christs ministry. Galations was written by Paul.

Change happens with continual revelation.

Antagonists to truth confuse the wording of the ordinance changing with the ordinance itself changing.



If you don’t understand that “continual revelation” to The Church means “continual change” then I can’t help you with definitions of words or phrases.



Keep reaching, I guess.

When all you have is false straw-man arguments, go to town, I guess.

When your tool box only contains a hammer, every problem is a nail.

Defending Our Divinely Inspired Constitution… Link




The Church teaches eternal principles, sends missionaries into the world to spread the message, builds in Temples, and defends the Temples (as Christ did), and has massive farms, orchards, dairies and other food production and distribution networds… The Church is a force for good in the world.

I told the whole truth about Helmuth Hubener. You had to present half-truths to implicate The Church in his martyrdom. He was an active and faithful member of The Church until his death, and testified of The Church until his death. He is a hero of the restoration.

The rest of the story? Helmuth Hubener did nothing wrong. “The Church” in Utah had no idea what he had gone through until after the war.

I told the truth. I am a seeker for truth.



You prayed to God, who you mock and deride, and received an answer?

And the answer you received from God was to become a Viking/Pagan? Eh?

Ok.

You have a misguided understanding and misrepresent many of the facts surrounding Latter-Day Saint Helmuth Hubener getting killed by the Nazis, a heroic act, and a true martyr for The Church. If you are praying to understand “truth” but only accept certain parts of truth to form “half truths” and misrepresentations, I would postulate that your answers from “God” are not necessarily from God.



It isn’t a competition.

If you post half-truths, misunderstandings and misrepresentations of my Church, I am going to point out where you are wrong.



I am here to make sure the incorrect assumptions, misrepresentations, and half-truths concerning my religion are met with answers and truth.

You hate my religion? Meh. We have a lot of haters. Haters hate. Meh.

I will meet your antagonism with truth and faith.

I can see you’re quite emotional about this. I’ll let you cool down a little before I reply.

I suggest you take this time to go back and edit out all your ad hominem attacks on my character and “class”

I’m not on trial here.

I may have disrespected your religion in terms of why I find it to be untrue but I was very respectful to you as a person.

All I ask is the same in return.

We can talk about just how credible Rusty the “hero combat veteran and world famous heart surgeon” is later.

You might also want to re-read my post and see where you might be willfully misreading the things I have said so you can make “points”.

You are obviously quite angry.

Cognitive dissonance tends to do that so I don’t blame you.

I was angry too. Still am sometimes. But I’m getting better.

You can do it.

I was just allowing for his accusation to be true and respecting the way he feels about what I said.

I don’t feel like I actually did that any more than he did to me.

I’ve been more than fair.

ETA : a challenge to facts by telling the rest of the story is not disrespectful. I didn’t even contradict any of the things he said directly. Just added context and a few of my feelings about a historical event.

A challenge to beliefs is not inherently disrespectful either.

I did not call his (or your) beliefs stupid, or laughable, or naive or anything else.

I simply stated why I don’t agree and made space for another member of the church to feel okay having questions about the church.

And unlike Juni4ling I did to me, I never said he had no class, or that he was an antagonist to truth (a liar) or that he “wasn’t fit to carry the jockstrap” of someone I believe in.

I made pointed assertions about areas where we differ in belief but please reread and recognize that I was called out as a liar when I addressed historical facts in a respectful way.

Or is the rule thou shalt not win an argument with a Mormon? as it seems to be.

All I am asking is that the rules be applied evenly.


If you have the truth why is this even a fight?

“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.”
— J. Reuben Clark - now deceased LDS a church apostle, member of the first presidency, and prominent attorney

What religion, if any, do you follow now?

You would have been taught that Prophets are capable of producing scripture. And that the Prophet is capable of making mistakes.

Like the Prophets in the Bible.

It is a false narrative presented by antagonists that the Prophet is infallible.



Not everything a Prophet says is scripture, and it has never been that way. There isn’t a scribe that follows the prophet around everywhere writing everything down.

We do not believe the Prophet is perfect, or infallible. It is a false narrative that the Prophet is infallible.

There is “change” in a changing, living Church based on continual revelation. A current Prophet can “change” things instituted by a past Prophet. Just like Christ changed things in His ministry, and Christ changed things from the Old to the New Testament.




It takes a lot of purposeful work and unfaithfulness to the gospel of Christ and The Church to get excommunicated.



An antagonist to truth quote-mining, and cutting-off the whole quote? Lol, rofl? Say it aint so! Lol, rofl.

Here is the *whole* quote…

“I also said something else that has excited people: that it’s wrong to criticize leaders of the Church, even if the criticism is true, because it diminishes their effectiveness as a servant of the Lord. One can work to correct them by some other means, but don’t go about saying that they misbehaved when they were a youngster or whatever. Well, of course, that sounds like religious censorship also.”

Why do antagonists to truth not share the entire quote? An *honest* seeker of truth would want to see the entire quote for context.



I love my local congregation. They are lovely, wonderful people. The Church itself is a global organization with global reach and impact.

There are antagonists to truth who wake up each day with the full-intent of tearing-down the religion. Lawyers are going to be involved.

Investment bankers do not “run” The Church. That is disingenuous. The Church has massive farms, dairies, orchards, and massive food production and distribution ability. And financial investment and savings. The Church teaches a doctrine of “preparedness.” Every organization (including the government) would be wise to follow The Churchs doctrine on this principle. Investment bankers do not “run” The Church. The savings (and farms) of The Church is indeed a central tenet of The Church but that is run as an ancillary program.

I don’t really think that is relevant to my criticism of Mormonism do you?

I have nothing to hide but I really don’t want to make this thread any more about me than our kangaroo friend already has.

The ad hominem attacks on my personal character distract from the conversation.

However if you think there is a reason for me to share my personal beliefs and my background in Mormonism in this thread I would entertain it.

Otherwise DM me.

I will say that my beliefs have been vastly overly simplified by my sparring partner.

Short answer is I would characterize myself as seeking truth and open to a truth experience from a higher power.

If that path reconciled me with Mormonism I would not only apologize I would share my experience from the rooftops to help others avoid my pain if possible.

But Mormonism has set a high bar for itself. And I will hold them to their word.


(I’ll get to Juni4ling later but he still needs to cool down. I’ll probably have multiple pages of Gish gallop to deal with at once by then but I won’t be rushed)

No, I suppose it isn't necessarily relevant to this thread.

As for juni4ling, he's a good dude.  I think the two of you just got off on the wrong foot.

God bless.

The Handbook of Instructions outlines the "actions" taken by The Church of Jesus Christ of  Latter-Day Saints leaders of congregations.

The scriptures, and ancient and modern leaders have stated that the Sacrament in Christs name is to be taken in worship service. The "Handbook of Instructions" details the uniform process it is to be given. The Sacrament is given in the same order and fashion in Ireland and in Montana.

When I was on my mission, a newly baptized member was moved into the Branch Presidency with only --literally-- weeks of Church membership. How could he know how to run a worship service and serve in his leadership position without a "handbook?" It is an important part of running a global Church in an organized and uniform manner.

The Handbook of Instructions allows for global Church uniformity, with Church services and programs following a pattern. And if there is a change in policy, everyone knows about it at the same exact time.

The Handbook of Instructions forces uniformity. A guy who cheats on his wife in Colorado will/should trigger the same doctrinal reaction as a guy who cheats on his wife in Australia, for instance.

For years The Church protected the Handbook of Instructions, and sued people who had copies who were not authorized, due to copyright issues. And when it moved online, The Church sued individuals who posted copies, which I think was a bad idea as now everyone wanted to see what was in it.

The Church has since posted it where everyone can see it...

2017 "LDS Church corrects technical error that briefly put handbook of instructions online" Link

2020 "New church handbook is online and available to all. Here are some of the changes" Link

My extended family ran a massive Church farm in Idaho until only a few years ago. Everyone had firearms. Hunters couldn't hunt on the private property per se, but they could follow game onto the property, and it happened regularly. With hunters the problem was never ever firearms it was leaving tire marks through the fields. I (and everyone else) open carried all over the vast property. All the time. No one said anything because the policy has no real teeth.

The policy has no legal teeth, and is only really meant to protect The Church if someone associated with The Church makes a mistake.

I don't think people truly understand how vast and extreme the food production and distribution "welfare" arm of The Church actually is.

LDS needs to follow.

Emotional? Not really.

I enjoy defending my Church against inaccuracies and misrepresentations.



Russel M. Nelson?

Came under-fire in Korea?

Is that who you refer to as Rusty?

If you think that is respectful, to call combat-vet, combat-lifesaver Nelson, "Rusty," you are wrong.

How about, "From the outside, your god sounds like an abusive dick." How is that "respectful?" Mocking the Christian God, respectful? Eh?

You have presented antagonisms criticisms to The Church, and I have answered them... And if you present more misrepresentations and misunderstandings of The Church, I will correct them also.

Pretty simple.




I read your posts. Your posts are typical passive aggressive antagonisms of The Church.

The Nazi that coming thing is relatively new with the relatively new anti-book you linked-to. Christians won't touch Nazi collaboration as most major religions in Europe actually --literally-- collaborated, in the literal open sense. It takes someone with no beliefs and situational ethics to point to *a* Branch President and call that "The Church" going-along with Nazis when Latter-Day Saint hero Helmuth Hubener, and his LDS friends all suffered for attacking Nazis from the inside. There were not very many of us. And we have a hero like Helmuth Hubener. Catholics have a letter from the Pope. Protestants have changing the Bible to fit Nazi doctrine. We actually look pretty good, compared to religions with similar beliefs. We don't have similar beliefs with JWs. They can claim they didn't get along with Nazis because they don't get along with any government, ever, and won't serve in any military. JWs opposed Nazis, and wont serve? They won't serve the US, which was going to go save the JWs, and Jews and Helmuth Hubeners Latter-Day Saint group held in Nazi camps, either.

Angry?

Not in the least bit.

You post antagonisms, criticisms, half-truths, conveniently-cut quotes and half-truths, and I will correct your antagonisms with truth and the full quotes with context and surrounding factors. Angry? I enjoy defending truth. I enjoy defending my religion. Angry? Nope. Not in the least bit.

You pretty much admitted to trolling.

Then you defend yourself with a page of legalese, lol, rofl. Gotta be honest, you sound like a Pharisee and Sadducee.

When you cut quotes, and I have to post the entire quote for context, you cant turn around and claim your goal is truth, lol, rofl.

Agreed.  in my opinion that is more powerful than any public statement the LDS church has released in over 100 years- and essentially the opposite of the press piece they put out.

You have posted openly before that your deeply held sacred beliefs are Viking/Pagan? Yes?

If I am wrong, let me know.

Your beliefs, ethics, and integrity is a central tenet of your argument that your misrepresentations and cut-quotes about my religion are accurate.

My position is that your positioned is to be questioned as I have shown cut-quotes and misrepresentations on your part.

You may not want your ethics and religions beliefs to be a part of your position, but they are.




My username is juni4ling. Not, "kangaroo."

It is easier to attack another religion with no religious beliefs of your own to defend. It helps you avoid hypocrisy.




You quote-mined, and misrepresented the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in this thread.

I will counter misrepresentations with proper presentation of Church beliefs and practices.

It is a fair and honest debate to present truth to counter misrepresentations.

Your personal beliefs  are central tenets of your attack on The Church of Jesus Christ. It is easier to cast stones with no beliefs.

If you aren't a pagan/Viking, let me know, I thought that is what you shared as your deeply-held religions convictions in a past thread... If I am wrong, let me know.




My beliefs have been put through the ringer. My beliefs, my Church, and my combat-vet, combat-lifesaver Church leader have been castigated by you, an antagonist to truth.




It is interesting that you have to quote-mine, conveniently leave-out key facts, exaggerate and misrepresent to create the false strawman that you misrepresent to as mOrManIsM!

You misrepresent our beliefs, cut quotes then claim that is what we believe and practice. When you do that, I will post the whole quote, post the truth of our beliefs, and defend The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

You create a false bar, then say we don't meet that bar. You accuse me of of being mean, then refer to me as, "kangaroo." You accuse me of personal attacks then refer to my combat-vet, combat-lifesaver Church leader as, "Rusty." How do you look at yourself in the mirror?

Thanks, you are a good dude, too.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is a global organization with a mandate from God to send missionaries to foreign countries to teach of Christ.

A "local" Church with "local" reach can have policies, and make statements that have no national or global impact.

The Church makes a statement or official policy that prevents missionaries leaving the US... And that negatively affects The Church of Jesus Christs ability to meet its mandate from God to send missionaries out of the US.

With the mandate to be a force for God and a force for good in the world, we will have different policies that smaller Churches with less of a reach.

A policy for The Church in Utah is going to be read by officials in Europe, Australia, France... Around the world.

"Why doesn't The Church make a stand politically more, when a small community Church with no missionary program said exactly what I wanted to hear!"

A policy or statement from The Church of Jesus Christ is going to apply in Europe, Asia, all around the world. And we have pressure other Churches don't have with our global missionary program.

I’m still going to give you some time to cool off but I’ll address this.

I admit I haven’t read your multiple post gish gallop in detail yet. (I have a life) I will though. But I suggest if you want to continue friendly debate and conversation with me that you now give me time to respond.

I am curious where you think I cut quotes or was dishonest. A quick scan of your multiple posts doesn’t stand out.

I did not admit to trolling. Like you, I enjoy defending the truth.  I am engaging in the conversation to bring a full picture to those interested (since you did not) and to help others see the truth of both sides of Mormonism so they can decide for themselves with informed consent.

You have presented the rosy and beautiful side and I will not argue with you unless you get something wrong.

It falls on me to present the other side of the truth.

Surely brother you cannot be afraid of the truth.

I merely commented on the fact that it appears there are multiple sets of rules here. I have been shadowbanned with no explanation -simply
Made to look like I was chased off from a Mormon thread in the past for saying things FAR less than the name calling you have engaged in here.


I would love to debate freely on the truth of Mormonism without getting dog piled or having to respond to 11 posts at once.

I think the very best format would be one between me and yourself, moderated by a neutral party, and with posts limited to less than 5000 characters. You go, then I go. Everyone owns their words and no edits are permitted. You are free to use whatever outside help and sources you like but the posts would be you and I.

Let the truth be told.

I would even wager my membership in arfcom on it if judged by say a panel of 5 neutral parties after it is complete.

Like I said I enjoy defending the truth as much as you do.

Now give me some time and I will address your concerns. If I wake up to 15 more posts from you I’ll probably just block you and go on telling the truth to everyone else who cares.

And FWIW I joke about Valhalla and I do find value in the old sagas and they are meaningful and beautiful.  But I am not a pagan. I currently have no ritual practice. I am a friendly agnostic actively seeking god and truth. He knows where to find me.

And like I said if he could somehow make Mormonism work for me I would be first in line to seek rebaptism and help others do the same.

Mormonism held deep value in my life. It just wasn’t  what I thought It was, or what I was taught it was and what it truly is doesn’t work for me and my values.  At the end of the day it needed to not only be good but to be true. And I was left disappointed.

Wait... Let me make sure I am following you, here.

You walked into a store a year ago... Shelves empty. Everyone in the US did. It happened in Australia, Great Britain, everywhere in the free world, pretty much.

You walked into a store and found shelves empty. Bare.

You might deny it. Or not want to admit it. But The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has taught "preparedness" as a central tenet of our religion for generations. Generations.

Preparedness.

Savings.

Pay off your house.

Be out of debt.

Get advanced degrees. Ged educated. Make money. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps.

Food storage.

72 hr kits.

More food storage.

Food storage, savings, and being prepared are central-tenets of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Meanwhile those central tenets are mocked and derided by antagonists to our religion.

So... You walk into a store, see shelves empty.

And the most powerful piece of advice from a religion in 100 years is you don't have to wear a mask? Lol, rofl.

If the Chinese learned anything (their imports into the US are skyrocketing, their economy booming) we are in nothing but a trial-run right now.

Wear a mask to make people feel safe? Get the vaccine? It is nice words. The Church needs to send Missionaries worldwide. Nice words. Placate State Department shot-callers. People trust Dr. Nelson outside The Church. Inside The Church as well. Wear a mask to make people feel safe. Get the vaccine. Harmless words to keep the missionary program going worldwide.

Want real advice that will make your life better, and it will sink in if you have seven functioning brain cells...

Follow The Church teachings on being prepared. Follow The Church teachings on having zero debt, owning your home and vehicles, and having years supply of food.

It is hard to believe that folks can stare at empty shelves and think anything other than that the best religious advice in a generation is to "be prepared."

If you are not a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, convince your  Church leaders to invest in farmland, food and food production ability. It is a wise and prudent investment And get prepared yourself. Be prepared yourself.

We are not out of the trial, and if the Chinese have seven functioning braincells between themselves, they are going to hit us again. Their economy boomed, ours shut-down. The US is funding ourselves using debt. China purchases our debt. They are laughing themselves to the bank. Empty shelves? Hungry kids? Not a problem if you are prepared. We are going to get hit again.

The wisest religious counsel in 100 years after witnessing empty shelves, and knowing it can come again... Be prepared. Have food storage. Have savings. Be out of debt.