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Posted: 5/20/2020 1:42:53 PM EDT
[#1]
Sorry dude, I have no idea. I clicked on this thread expecting to see lips..............wrong DSL!
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Posted: 5/20/2020 1:48:38 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By isptroop38: Sorry dude, I have no idea. I clicked on this thread expecting to see lips..............wrong DSL! This is the tech forum. If you want those DSLs, you need to go to GD or BOTD. |
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Posted: 5/20/2020 2:01:54 PM EDT
[#3]
T-1, T-2, or T_3 was right there with the DSLAM. That's what carried it back to the CO.
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Posted: 5/20/2020 2:05:57 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: I live in a house that was built in 1994 outside of downtown Boise. Yesterday, I got bonded VDSL2 Internet access that gives me 100 Mbps down and 10 Mbps up. There's about 400 meters of copper between me and the DSLAM where fiber then takes over. I speculate that DSL service to my house didn't always go through fiber, and that just after the year 2000, it was actually copper all the way to the substation. I think that ADSL was designed for this type of service, and that when fiber was brought much closer to the house, the VDSL protocols were created to get higher bandwidth out of the (now) much shorter copper runs. Do I have this correct? it’s called a central office or wire center, sub stations are the power company but yes, the DSL deployed 20 years ago was copper all the way back to the C.O. old copper pairs designed for plain old telephone service . |
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Posted: 5/20/2020 3:18:38 PM EDT
[#5]
And the next step that CenturyLink is just starting is fiber all the way into your house. Got my 1 Gb service last year and it's wonderful. Testing always shows 900+ Mb both up and down.
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Posted: 5/20/2020 4:55:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By engineer61: And the next step that CenturyLink is just starting is fiber all the way into your house. Got my 1 Gb service last year and it's wonderful. Testing always shows 900+ Mb both up and down. Are they retrofitting old houses, or just new construction? |
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Posted: 5/20/2020 8:34:33 PM EDT
[#7]
You are correct. Vdsl is for short runs like yours. It drops off real fast the farther away you get from the co or fiber. It can be repeated, sometimes it's better than nothing.
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Posted: 5/25/2020 10:34:28 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: T-1, T-2, or T_3 was right there with the DSLAM. That's what carried it back to the CO. T1/T2/T3 require repeaters (line conditioners) every 6000 ft. VDSL doesn't typically drop below T1 specs until roughly 10,000 ft. That being said, fiber fed pops are becoming more common and you see VDSL being used in cases where telco's or ISPs have a bunch of legacy copper in the ground and don't want to (or where it is financially not practical) to upgrade last mile ADSL to fiber fed VDSL. |
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Posted: 5/25/2020 10:53:02 PM EDT
[#9]
You have it right. I live in the land that time forgot, from 93-97 I was ISDN (a digital phone line that predates the internet, but can carry data), and then the local CO added DSL.
100% copper the whole way. It's a rural area and not worth the cost to upgrade the infrastructure so that's still all there is from the telco. Initally I got nearly 1Mbps, but near the end of when I subscribed to DSL it had dropped down to 256Kbps or lower (phone lines were WW2 era.) A tech confided in me that they were never going to be upgraded due to the capital cost involved and the declining subscriber base and suggested I "look around" for alternatives. My WISP delivers about 20Mbps now. DSL is still available, and still sup-1Mbps. More recent developments closer to town have a mix of fiber to outside plant DLSAMs and then copper with higher speed DSL, fiber to the home, and cable (with cable being the most popular.) |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 1:04:18 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You have it right. I live in the land that time forgot, from 93-97 I was ISDN (a digital phone line that predates the internet, but can carry data), and then the local CO added DSL. 100% copper the whole way. It's a rural area and not worth the cost to upgrade the infrastructure so that's still all there is from the telco. Initally I got nearly 1Mbps, but near the end of when I subscribed to DSL it had dropped down to 256Kbps or lower (phone lines were WW2 era.) A tech confided in me that they were never going to be upgraded due to the capital cost involved and the declining subscriber base and suggested I "look around" for alternatives. My WISP delivers about 20Mbps now. DSL is still available, and still sup-1Mbps. More recent developments closer to town have a mix of fiber to outside plant DLSAMs and then copper with higher speed DSL, fiber to the home, and cable (with cable being the most popular.) I'm stuck out on the middle of nowhere as well, except ATT never bothered bringing in DSL. When i bought my house they were in the process of updating the circuits north and south of me, and claimed we're next Around 2007 they ran fiber to the cell tower across the field from me, but nothing else had been done. I getting ready to ditch satellite and go with a cell-based router. ATT's website won't let me order one, saying it's not available in my area, however the guys at the ATT store say otherwise. |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 2:11:08 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm stuck out on the middle of nowhere as well, except ATT never bothered bringing in DSL. When i bought my house they were in the process of updating the circuits north and south of me, and claimed we're next Around 2007 they ran fiber to the cell tower across the field from me, but nothing else had been done. I getting ready to ditch satellite and go with a cell-based router. ATT's website won't let me order one, saying it's not available in my area, however the guys at the ATT store say otherwise. I could have written this post myself. But I have service from a WISP that I pay $100 for 12/2 internet. |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 4:56:37 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You have it right. I live in the land that time forgot, from 93-97 I was ISDN (a digital phone line that predates the internet, but can carry data), and then the local CO added DSL. 100% copper the whole way. It's a rural area and not worth the cost to upgrade the infrastructure so that's still all there is from the telco. Initally I got nearly 1Mbps, but near the end of when I subscribed to DSL it had dropped down to 256Kbps or lower (phone lines were WW2 era.) A tech confided in me that they were never going to be upgraded due to the capital cost involved and the declining subscriber base and suggested I "look around" for alternatives. My WISP delivers about 20Mbps now. DSL is still available, and still sup-1Mbps. More recent developments closer to town have a mix of fiber to outside plant DLSAMs and then copper with higher speed DSL, fiber to the home, and cable (with cable being the most popular.) My in-laws live in Fort Worth. Older neighborhood (prior to annexing of that part of the county by City of) built in the 90's. The HOA has something that states utilities will be below ground. 2M/0.5M DSL is the best AT&T can serve the neighborhood with (waiting on a 800 acre plot across the road to be developed to justify running fiber). Spectrum has coax...following the county road above ground but nothing under ground at the entrance to the neighborhood. The two WISPs in the area currently deliver between 15M and 50M for less than $70 a month. |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 10:10:18 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are they retrofitting old houses, or just new construction? The fiber only runs to the outside of your house or at least that's how C-Spire does it here. I have a gray box on the side of my house like I have for the cable company and the phone company. Those were new construction so they enter the house behind their respective boxes. The gray box for fiber contains the Optical Network Termination or ONT. It's basically a fiber modem. Two black cables leave the ONT and run up the wall and into my attic via the soffit. One cable is a two wire power cable. The other end is plugged into an outlet in the attic. The other cable is a CAT-6E that is terminated and plugged into the WAN port of my router. |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 10:30:55 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The fiber only runs to the outside of your house or at least that's how C-Spire does it here. I have a gray box on the side of my house like I have for the cable company and the phone company. Those were new construction so they enter the house behind their respective boxes. The gray box for fiber contains the Optical Network Termination or ONT. It's basically a fiber modem. Two black cables leave the ONT and run up the wall and into my attic via the soffit. One cable is a two wire power cable. The other end is plugged into an outlet in the attic. The other cable is a CAT-6E that is terminated and plugged into the WAN port of my router. There is nothing to stop them from running fiber into the home. Some companies do run the fiber into the home while others do not. The big thing is a lot of CPE equipment isn't setup to handle a GPON module but everyone's equipment is configured for regular Ethernet. |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 10:46:57 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The other cable is a CAT-6E that is terminated and plugged into the WAN port of my router. Cat-5E or Cat-6A? 
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Posted: 5/27/2020 10:08:07 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The fiber only runs to the outside of your house or at least that's how C-Spire does it here. I have a gray box on the side of my house like I have for the cable company and the phone company. Those were new construction so they enter the house behind their respective boxes. The gray box for fiber contains the Optical Network Termination or ONT. It's basically a fiber modem. Two black cables leave the ONT and run up the wall and into my attic via the soffit. One cable is a two wire power cable. The other end is plugged into an outlet in the attic. The other cable is a CAT-6E that is terminated and plugged into the WAN port of my router. |
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Posted: 5/29/2020 12:35:28 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: T1/T2/T3 require repeaters (line conditioners) every 6000 ft. VDSL doesn't typically drop below T1 specs until roughly 10,000 ft. That being said, fiber fed pops are becoming more common and you see VDSL being used in cases where telco's or ISPs have a bunch of legacy copper in the ground and don't want to (or where it is financially not practical) to upgrade last mile ADSL to fiber fed VDSL. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: T-1, T-2, or T_3 was right there with the DSLAM. That's what carried it back to the CO. T1/T2/T3 require repeaters (line conditioners) every 6000 ft. VDSL doesn't typically drop below T1 specs until roughly 10,000 ft. That being said, fiber fed pops are becoming more common and you see VDSL being used in cases where telco's or ISPs have a bunch of legacy copper in the ground and don't want to (or where it is financially not practical) to upgrade last mile ADSL to fiber fed VDSL. This the case for our single legacy DSL site. Once I had fiber to the hut on site, I replaced the old legacy Cisco LRE system with a new VDSL2+ system that was hauled back via fiber to my CO. The site had a well done legacy copper plant and it did not make financial sense to pull fiber in this neighborhood. I have runs up to half mile or so and all my customers are rate limited to 50x5Mbps. Link speed on some is closer to 100Mbps. Oh, minor correction - in ISP world, it is DS1/2/3, not T. |
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Posted: 5/29/2020 8:19:18 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Cat-5E or Cat-6A? |
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Posted: 5/29/2020 8:49:43 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are they using GPON or XGS PON? Before this post, I had never heard of either. This is not my IT area of expertise. But I did try to look it up and saw that some places in CA get 10Gbs using XGS PON. I'd be surprised if C-Spire is doing this. While they are definitely faster than my old Xfinity cable service, they didn't include capacity for everyone being at home. If I check my speed later today, I'll be around 85Mbps. 
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Posted: 5/29/2020 10:14:07 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I could have written this post myself. But I have service from a WISP that I pay $100 for 12/2 internet. I had two WISP providers with 50 foot telescoping antennas on their trucks come out. No signal. I'm surrounded by gradually rolling hills. ATT put up a 150 foot tower 1/4 mile from the house because the geographic features make my area a dead spot for signals from outside the valley. |
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Posted: 5/29/2020 11:35:49 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My mistake. It has what looks to be a much thicker jacket than the CAT-6 I have seen at Lowes. That's probably Cat-6A UTP. |
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Posted: 5/29/2020 9:35:33 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Before this post, I had never heard of either. This is not my IT area of expertise. But I did try to look it up and saw that some places in CA get 10Gbs using XGS PON. I'd be surprised if C-Spire is doing this. While they are definitely faster than my old Xfinity cable service, they didn't include capacity for everyone being at home. If I check my speed later today, I'll be around 85Mbps. https://www.speedtest.net/result/9520138686.png |
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Posted: 5/30/2020 3:17:50 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are they using GPON or XGS PON? Probably GPON, as the equipment to do that has gotten way cheaper. |
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Posted: 5/30/2020 3:19:19 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This the case for our single legacy DSL site. Once I had fiber to the hut on site, I replaced the old legacy Cisco LRE system with a new VDSL2+ system that was hauled back via fiber to my CO. The site had a well done legacy copper plant and it did not make financial sense to pull fiber in this neighborhood. I have runs up to half mile or so and all my customers are rate limited to 50x5Mbps. Link speed on some is closer to 100Mbps. Oh, minor correction - in ISP world, it is DS1/2/3, not T. This guy Telcos. |
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Posted: 5/30/2020 9:47:12 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Probably GPON, as the equipment to do that has gotten way cheaper. |
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Posted: 5/31/2020 10:36:07 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are they retrofitting old houses, or just new construction? My neighborhood was built in 1957/58/59, so it's refitting old construction. The phone lines, electrical power and cable TV are run on telephone poles, so stringing fiber was a lot less difficult that in an existing neighborhood that had buried utilities. And the fiber goes into my house (yes, another hole in my outside wall that had already been drilled twice for cable TV), direct hookup to the modem. |
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Posted: 6/1/2020 11:01:18 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This guy Telcos. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This the case for our single legacy DSL site. Once I had fiber to the hut on site, I replaced the old legacy Cisco LRE system with a new VDSL2+ system that was hauled back via fiber to my CO. The site had a well done legacy copper plant and it did not make financial sense to pull fiber in this neighborhood. I have runs up to half mile or so and all my customers are rate limited to 50x5Mbps. Link speed on some is closer to 100Mbps. Oh, minor correction - in ISP world, it is DS1/2/3, not T. This guy Telcos. Yes, I do.  However, I almost never touch DS/T circuits any more. I have a team for that. Oddly, a lot of radio broadcasters still use honest-go-goodness Ts for sending signals to their broadcast equipment. Nowadays, I drop a end device with a CES module to convert the T to ethernet, which I then haul over an MPLS network, then peel it back out as a T on the other end. Cheaper than leasing a T from the local telephone carrier.Back on the topic of DSL/VDSL, it is till viable for that mid-range 10-100Mbps if you have a viable copper plant and can get some fiber to your hut. We run almost all fiber everywhere, but for legacy residential areas, it is still viable. New construction - GPON all the things or go active ethernet FTTH. |
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Posted: 6/1/2020 2:50:43 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, I do. However, I almost never touch DS/T circuits any more. I have a team for that. Oddly, a lot of radio broadcasters still use honest-go-goodness Ts for sending signals to their broadcast equipment. Nowadays, I drop a end device with a CES module to convert the T to ethernet, which I then haul over an MPLS network, then peel it back out as a T on the other end. Cheaper than leasing a T from the local telephone carrier.Back on the topic of DSL/VDSL, it is till viable for that mid-range 10-100Mbps if you have a viable copper plant and can get some fiber to your hut. We run almost all fiber everywhere, but for legacy residential areas, it is still viable. New construction - GPON all the things or go active ethernet FTTH. I still have a couple of DS1 as they are the fastest DIA's I can get at several locations unless I feel like paying an incumbent $25,000 to build out to me. Considering I only need about 128 kbps symmetric for what I'm doing at those locations though it works pretty well. That does remind me of one of the broadcaster's at one of those sites that uses a sub-1Mbps DSL connection for their backhauls (IP is often cheaper than traditional STLs). They need about 256 kbps for their IP backhaul...I just think it's kind of ridiculous that they have to resort to that though. |
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Posted: 6/1/2020 10:16:51 PM EDT
[#29]
My isp is a cable co. I get about 50mb to 60 mb these days with no contract and no throttling. They want me to buy into 1gb with a contract and throttling. F them. Ill just wait on Google Fiber to move into town.
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Posted: 6/2/2020 12:05:14 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My isp is a cable co. I get about 50mb to 60 mb these days with no contract and no throttling. They want me to buy into 1gb with a contract and throttling. F them. Ill just wait on Google Fiber to move into town. You couldn't use a Gbit if you tried. 50-60Mbps is plenty for 95% of residential customers. I have a 'Gbit' site with about 400 residents. They have not even hit 1 Gbps collectively yet. Don't hold your breath for Google Fiber. |
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Posted: 6/4/2020 1:18:33 PM EDT
[#31]
Screw all you lucky bastards!
The below is my situation except no WISPs available due to the terrain. I feel great when I get a speed test over 1Mbps; like I've won a significant battle that day! Quote HistoryQuoted: You have it right. I live in the land that time forgot, from 93-97 I was ISDN (a digital phone line that predates the internet, but can carry data), and then the local CO added DSL. 100% copper the whole way. It's a rural area and not worth the cost to upgrade the infrastructure so that's still all there is from the telco. Initally I got nearly 1Mbps, but near the end of when I subscribed to DSL it had dropped down to 256Kbps or lower (phone lines were WW2 era.) A tech confided in me that they were never going to be upgraded due to the capital cost involved and the declining subscriber base and suggested I "look around" for alternatives. My WISP delivers about 20Mbps now. DSL is still available, and still sup-1Mbps. More recent developments closer to town have a mix of fiber to outside plant DLSAMs and then copper with higher speed DSL, fiber to the home, and cable (with cable being the most popular.) |
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Posted: 6/4/2020 3:05:40 PM EDT
[#32]
DS3, OC3, OC12, ethernet, were traditional backbones for DSLAMs (2000-2003) and that's the last experience I have with them. I worked for a manufacture of them when DSL was more popular than cable (that didn't last long) and isdn and t1 service was still terribly expensive.
Call your provider and tell them to unmeter your line. |
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Posted: 6/10/2020 2:31:20 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You couldn't use a Gbit if you tried. 50-60Mbps is plenty for 95% of residential customers. I have a 'Gbit' site with about 400 residents. They have not even hit 1 Gbps collectively yet. Don't hold your breath for Google Fiber. Coming soon. I have 500 Mbps over fiber. I stream 4k TV, have 2 servers running, 30ish wireless clients and probably another 15 or so wired clients. I definitely use up that sweet molasses. But now I'm realizing I'm probably not in that 95% of residential customers  But honestly, an average family of 4 probably has 4 laptops, 4 phones, 4 tablets, maybe a gaming rig or xbox, 2 smart TVs. If everyone is live at the same time, you are pulling down some good numbers. |
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Posted: 6/10/2020 7:02:04 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You couldn't use a Gbit if you tried. 50-60Mbps is plenty for 95% of residential customers. I have a 'Gbit' site with about 400 residents. They have not even hit 1 Gbps collectively yet. Don't hold your breath for Google Fiber. That being said, I'm waiting until it's available before I decide. The providers in the neighborhood are offering "deals" right now that include 2 yr contracts. I need more than the 50 to 60 Mb I get now due to a work VPN, 4K TV's, security cams and a few other things. I don't need Gb but if it is the best option, price and feature wise, I'll take it. |
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Posted: 6/11/2020 1:35:29 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Coming soon. I have 500 Mbps over fiber. I stream 4k TV, have 2 servers running, 30ish wireless clients and probably another 15 or so wired clients. I definitely use up that sweet molasses. But now I'm realizing I'm probably not in that 95% of residential customers But honestly, an average family of 4 probably has 4 laptops, 4 phones, 4 tablets, maybe a gaming rig or xbox, 2 smart TVs. If everyone is live at the same time, you are pulling down some good numbers. I'm going through some of my site routers right now. One site has a 500 Mbps DIA with over 500 APs, currently has 253 active clients, over 1530 active connections through the firewall and has peaked at 72 Mbps today. Another site has a gig DIA, feeds four sites (via microwave backhaul), some 400 APs, in the last year it's only ever peaked at 300 Mbps. Minus the oddball business client, this is strictly hotel guests and condos. Good QoS goes a long way...which is something that is neglected with a lot of residential networks. |
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Posted: 6/11/2020 1:41:45 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm going through some of my site routers right now. One site has a 500 Mbps DIA with over 500 APs, currently has 253 active clients, over 1530 active connections through the firewall and has peaked at 72 Mbps today. Another site has a gig DIA, feeds four sites (via microwave backhaul), some 400 APs, in the last year it's only ever peaked at 300 Mbps. Minus the oddball business client, this is strictly hotel guests and condos. Good QoS goes a long way...which is something that is neglected with a lot of residential networks. I've saturated 10gig links with real data. I laugh at your statistics. 
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Posted: 6/11/2020 4:40:13 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've saturated 10gig links with real data. I laugh at your statistics. At this point the only time I do that is if I tell 500 devices to tftp copy for new firmware (it happens 100 connections at a time) but it's all LAN traffic I create so it doesn't count. Switches seem to handle it without issues though... My point was really residential application, rarely ever needs more than about 60 Mbps for streaming anything. |
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Posted: 6/11/2020 5:51:13 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: At this point the only time I do that is if I tell 500 devices to tftp copy for new firmware (it happens 100 connections at a time) but it's all LAN traffic I create so it doesn't count. Switches seem to handle it without issues though... My point was really residential application, rarely ever needs more than about 60 Mbps for streaming anything. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've saturated 10gig links with real data. I laugh at your statistics. At this point the only time I do that is if I tell 500 devices to tftp copy for new firmware (it happens 100 connections at a time) but it's all LAN traffic I create so it doesn't count. Switches seem to handle it without issues though... My point was really residential application, rarely ever needs more than about 60 Mbps for streaming anything. I won't argue with that. I'm just bragging. Had to use special FTP over UDP software to do it, but it was fun. |
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Posted: 7/3/2020 11:53:46 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I could have written this post myself. But I have service from a WISP that I pay $100 for 12/2 internet. We pay our WISP $100/mo for 10, get 6 on a good day, and 4 more often than not. I'm looking into an LTE based solution. |
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