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Posted: 3/3/2021 10:00:15 PM EDT
Not much altitude to work with but ended okay.
 Texas Hog Hunt Helicopter Crash |
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Posted: 3/3/2021 10:03:15 PM EDT
[#1]
I was the pilot's bunk mate in Basic, shared a room in WOCS, and went to the 58D course with him.
He did a great job and walked away. Damn helicopter was new (to him) |
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Posted: 3/3/2021 10:04:54 PM EDT
[#2]
Someone here posted the video from the guy in the back seat a few weeks ago. Apparently there were several personal connections between the people in that video and membership here. Glad everyone made it out alright.
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Posted: 3/3/2021 10:07:05 PM EDT
[#3]
Gravity is very unforgiving!
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Posted: 3/3/2021 10:10:06 PM EDT
[#4]
What was the actual failure
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Posted: 3/3/2021 10:19:22 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What was the actual failure I will ask him to find out. It was an engine failure that I know of. |
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Posted: 3/3/2021 10:22:13 PM EDT
[#6]
I did a HHH a few years ago and never thought about a crash. Not for a instant........I enjoyed every damn second of the experience. Now.........after seeing several of these videos......I don’t think I could do another one.
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Posted: 3/3/2021 10:24:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Looks like the tail rotor separated.....I'm guessing that happened during the "LANDING" Phase.....
BUT...... Friends don't let Friends fly ROBINSON's...... |
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Posted: 3/3/2021 11:09:33 PM EDT
[#8]
Was the Jesus nut tightened?
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Posted: 3/3/2021 11:13:01 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:I will ask him to find out. It was an engine failure that I know of. My guess, as a trained interweb investigator  , is that it was a bizarre combination of a intermittent ground connection to the ignition switch and pilot error. He clearly blew off his mag checks or he would have caught the problem. All honor to him for flying a very difficult auto (low altitude, wires along the road, scrub brush, etc.), but how the hell do you leave the ignition switch in OFF??? The intermittent ground decided to be not intermittent, and that was that. Interestingly, both mag's had to be working because everything sounded good and performed well until it didn't. With one mag out everything would be shit. That's why I think it's an intermittent ground to the switch (or an intermittent switch).I've experienced bad P wire problems on my R44 twice. Once because of a bad ignition switch, another time because of a bad mag (internal open to coil). It can be easy to convince yourself the mag dropped when it didn't during a mag check. Be sure, give it time to drop. |
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Posted: 3/3/2021 11:19:15 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:Friends don't let Friends fly ROBINSON's...... |
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Posted: 3/3/2021 11:34:48 PM EDT
[#11]
Helicopter wasn't that new. Just recently imported back to the states. Look up the Canadian reg that's on the instrument panel. 2012 R44. At least it was a R44 and not a R22. Auto's in the 22 were never fun.
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Posted: 3/4/2021 12:21:47 AM EDT
[#12]
If you pause at 1:52 the ignition switch is on "both" if it's configured the same as this R-44 panel image is. It was in the same configuration on takeoff.
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Posted: 3/4/2021 6:56:05 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you pause at 1:52 the ignition switch is on "both" if it's configured the same as this R-44 panel image is. It was in the same configuration on takeoff. The ignition switch is different on the Raven II because it is fuel injected and it has an additional position for the electric primer. |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 9:00:11 AM EDT
[#14]
Unsat all around. Sat enough to walk away from though.
Is that a low rotor horn that is on all the way to the ground? You can hear the rotor speed drop, come back up in the turn, then drop again even lower after the turn and stay extremely low until he hits he ground. I assume 3 big guys is near max weight on that thing, there should be zero issues with low rotor speed. |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 9:16:08 AM EDT
[#15]
Whatever happened, everyone was pretty cool about it lol. Everyone walked away...dig out some lessons learned and move on.
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Posted: 3/4/2021 11:41:04 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:Is that a low rotor horn that is on all the way to the ground? Quote HistoryQuoted:Is that a low rotor horn that is on all the way to the ground? You can hear the rotor speed drop, come back up in the turn, then drop again even lower after the turn and stay extremely low until he hits he ground. I assume 3 big guys is near max weight on that thing, there should be zero issues with low rotor speed. |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 12:11:26 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unfortunately his energy state was too low after the turn. Translation: "Unfortunately he let the rotor speed and airspeed get unacceptably low and had insufficient energy to execute a safe autorotation" Under the conditions it would've taken a very high level of proficiency and skill to auto without damaging the aircraft. I'm not very familiar with robinsons, but any guesses if that aircraft is repairable? |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 1:45:38 PM EDT
[#18]
I get many hours of sleep riding on choppers in the GOM. Y’all are fracturing my trust.
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Posted: 3/4/2021 2:10:10 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:I'm not very familiar with robinsons, but any guesses if that aircraft is repairable? |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 2:53:59 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's the wrong panel you've got there. He's flying a Raven II. If you look at the Raven II panel (old style, 7 hole) you'll see the key is in the OFF position. The ignition switch is different on the Raven II because it is fuel injected and it has an additional position for the electric primer. Yep, sure enough. He was flying with the mags off from takeoff through the crash. That's crazy. 
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Posted: 3/4/2021 3:11:40 PM EDT
[#21]
Of all the things I think the FAA will nitpick, they still have the Canadian registration placard on the panel.
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Posted: 3/4/2021 4:03:19 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, sure enough. He was flying with the mags off from takeoff through the crash. That's crazy. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: .... you'll see the key is in the OFF position. Yep, sure enough. He was flying with the mags off from takeoff through the crash. That's crazy. Pardon my ignorance, I know little about piston engine aircraft.... How can the engine run with the magnetos off? |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 5:27:33 PM EDT
[#23]
The magneto is designed to run except when the so-called "P lead", or "primary lead", i.e. a wire that is connected to one end of the primary coil inside the magneto, is grounded. If that ground connection is broken then the magneto can operate and the engine can run. It's considered the "fail safer" configuration, i.e. better to have an engine that runs when you don't want it to than not run when you do want it to.
When you do your mag checks before takeoff, not only are you checking that both your mag's are healthy, but also that both P leads circuits are intact. If a broken P lead circuit, i.e. a mag that cannot be disabled, is detected the aircraft should not flown. The ignition switch in an aircraft like this grounds both P leads in the OFF position. It has been postulated by myself and others that somehow both P leads on both mag's were intermittent, allowing the darn thing to fly with the ignition switch in the OFF position. That is until they decided to be intermittently good! It's a pretty bizarre state of affairs, however. |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 6:39:12 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It has been postulated by myself and others that somehow both P leads on both mag's were intermittent, allowing the darn thing to fly with the ignition switch in the OFF position. That is until they decided to be intermittently good! It's a pretty bizarre state of affairs, however. lol not that clueless, I thought somebody was saying the engine could run with both magnetos inoperative! Is there a magneto check prior to takeoff in the checklist? |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 8:00:07 PM EDT
[#25]
Yes, of course there is.
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Posted: 3/4/2021 11:56:45 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 
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Posted: 3/5/2021 12:18:13 AM EDT
[#27]
EDIT: previous question deleted.
From the stupid fixed wing pogue's perspective, looked like a good emergency landing with not a lot of options. Thanks for the perspective and commentary, rotor-dudes. |
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Posted: 3/5/2021 7:38:08 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for the detailed perspective on this. Your experience is pretty impressive |
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Posted: 3/5/2021 7:50:17 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, sure enough. He was flying with the mags off from takeoff through the crash. That's crazy. https://r44.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/IMG_1110-e1500500325877.jpg Which switch was it? It looked like all he hit, had to be moved. |
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Posted: 3/5/2021 9:37:07 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which switch was it? It looked like all he hit, had to be moved. The one with the key inserted into it. |
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Posted: 3/5/2021 12:34:23 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which switch was it? It looked like all he hit, had to be moved. As noted, it's the key switch. If you look at the pic I posted of the panel, you can see the switch is in about the 2 o'clock position and can partially make out the "off" legend behind the key. If you look at the start of the video he gives a very good view of the key while he's under power before doing his takeoff run. It's at the 2 o'clock position. At 1:52 in the video during the crash you can see it's still at the 2 o'clock position. So the entire flight happened with the magnetos off. What I'm wondering is did they just pull the mixture to stop the engine every time, so that no one ever noticed the mag issue? Usually the RPM drop on the mag check (that presumably wasn't done) is pretty obvious, so were they blowing off the mag check every time? It's really hard to imagine how this issue went undetected. |
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Posted: 3/5/2021 12:39:22 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The one with the key inserted into it. Copy. Thx |
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Posted: 3/5/2021 12:42:53 PM EDT
[#33]
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Posted: 3/5/2021 12:46:29 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/255381/990117A9-C97A-402C-9640-D98168C64BCD_png-1852447.JPG So it’s wrong in this screenshot? Yeah, that's in the off position. Pointed about 2 o'clock. "Both" should be selected and that's at about 5 o'clock. |
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Posted: 3/5/2021 1:00:08 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, that's in the off position. Pointed about 2 o'clock. "Both" should be selected and that's at about 5 o'clock. Oops. Thanks for the education. |
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Posted: 3/5/2021 1:05:20 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:What I'm wondering is did they just pull the mixture to stop the engine every time, so that no one ever noticed the mag issue? Usually the RPM drop on the mag check (that presumably wasn't done) is pretty obvious, so were they blowing off the mag check every time? It's really hard to imagine how this issue went undetected. It's easy to miss a bad P-lead if you are in a hurry during the mag checks, especially if your mag's are in great shape and don't show much in the way of a drop. The checklist item for the mag checks in a Robinson helicopter is "No more than 7% drop in 2 seconds." If you just bang the key to L or R for two seconds and then back to BOTH right away you can miss a bad P-lead. As for myself, I make certain that I get a drop of some sort, and will patiently wait many seconds to see it on each mag. |
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Posted: 3/5/2021 1:10:20 PM EDT
[#37]
Ooof! If that’s true, that had to be a bad feeling, when he realized. Man...
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Posted: 3/5/2021 1:12:20 PM EDT
[#38]
Waiting as long as it takes (within reason) to see a definitive drop in RPM was what I was taught as well.
I'm trying to come up with how this could happen and the only thing I can think of is an intermittent ground at the switch. It the P-leads were broken it'd be a hell of a coincidence for them to reconnect at the same time. An iffy ground at the switch with the switch off could come back with a bump and boom, dead engine. |
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Posted: 3/5/2021 3:51:56 PM EDT
[#39]
I'm still looking for the video taken from the guy in the back seat. Apparently some are suggesting, from that video, the key was in both at a certain point but then off a bit later. Curious
Found it. Got nothing to add.  Chopper Crash |
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Posted: 3/5/2021 3:58:55 PM EDT
[#40]
I am not sure how much more I can say about this without asking Jaycee but according to the investigators the mag switch was not in the off position while in flight.
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Posted: 3/5/2021 3:59:11 PM EDT
[#41]
I am not sure how much more I can say about this without asking Jaycee but according to the investigators the mag switch was not in the off position while in flight.
iPad double tap. |
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Posted: 3/5/2021 4:11:35 PM EDT
[#42]
Initially I didn't want to think it was something like leaving the mags off. Hell, I still don't want to think it. It's such a "golden BB" event to have 2 bad P-leads, turn the switch to off and complete a normal takeoff with that configuration. There are a few different Raven II panels so it's still possible that's not what happened but if you look at stills from the video and compare them to a higher resolution photo of a Raven II panel it is pretty telling.
Screen cap from the video showing the key at 2 o'clock.  Attached FileRaven II panel  Attached FileIt just seems so unlikely... |
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Posted: 3/5/2021 4:57:45 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am not sure how much more I can say about this without asking Jaycee but according to the investigators the mag switch was not in the off position while in flight. No report at the FAA accident database. |
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Posted: 3/5/2021 5:40:18 PM EDT
[#44]
Looked like about as nice of a landing as you could ask for in the situation.
Very interesting about the mags. I'd assume it takes a lot longer to notice the RPM drop when doing mag check due to the much higher momentum versus a plane? Interesting that both mags managed to fire enough to run up and take off with the key off though..... |
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Posted: 3/5/2021 8:50:07 PM EDT
[#45]
Piston engine helicopters use an overrunning (aka sprag) clutch to decouple the engine from the transmission. Unlike airplanes, or most turbine helicopters, this is necessary to allow the rotor system to freewheel in the event of an engine failure. Thus the rotor system has no bearing on the magnetos if the engine fails.
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Posted: 3/5/2021 8:58:47 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No report at the FAA accident database. I didn't say I was getting my information from a published FAA report, did I? |
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Posted: 3/5/2021 9:12:47 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I didn't say I was getting my information from a published FAA report, did I? |
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Posted: 3/5/2021 9:24:22 PM EDT
[#48]
Ever been in that situation?
Lot’s of rotor wing time? Log off of MS Flight Simulator much? Fucking arm chair pilots! |
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Posted: 3/5/2021 10:55:27 PM EDT
[#49]
LOL an R44. |
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Posted: 3/6/2021 9:59:29 AM EDT
[#50]
I know nothing of Robbies and haven't flown a piston since Primary in the TH-55 circa 1987 when I had zero understanding of mags and the checks, I just did what they told me too. I still have zero understanding of mags and the associated checks.
So, given all that, I have nothing to say about what might have caused the engine failure but, as a guy that has done a lot of training autos, I hope that if I ever have to do one for real that I can get that result. Nobody hurt. |
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