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Posted: 2/12/2020 7:34:53 PM EDT
I'm thinking of having stickers made for FBO check-ins. At first I was thinking of doing business cards, but stickers make sense because they frequently have you sign-in on a piece of paper. This way I can drop off a sticker at the counter and keep moving if they're busy or I'm running late.

The sticker would be business card size and have the following:

N12345
Aircraft: [manuf][model] - Piston single
Pilot: Leroy Jenkins
Phone: 800-555-1212
100LL ONLY
Observe tow limits

Tow limits are 15 degrees each way. Turning nosewheel past 15 degrees can result in extensive damage
Fueling instructions:
__ Fuel on departure
__ Fuel while I'm away
__ Left tank __ Right tank
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 8:42:30 PM EDT
[#1]
Good idea, but doubt they'd work very well in most FBO's I've been in.

As for fueling, no fueling unless I'm there.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 6:24:30 AM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Good idea, but doubt they'd work very well in most FBO's I've been in.

As for fueling, no fueling unless I'm there.
View Quote
I just think about all the times I've been to MIA, KEYW, AVL, KNEW, et cetera and had to wait around to check in while I've had a ride waiting for me. It would be nice to just be able to drop a card and leave.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 7:57:26 AM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I just think about all the times I've been to MIA, KEYW, AVL, KNEW, et cetera and had to wait around to check in while I've had a ride waiting for me. It would be nice to just be able to drop a card and leave.
View Quote
I get it, and agree its an annoyance to have to wait while the FBO wienies scratch their asses, but I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority would promptly toss your card in the nearest trash can, especially at places like Signature ().
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 12:20:33 PM EDT
[#4]
As a former line service guy, I don't think I ever actually saw the paperwork that you're referring to.  I was usually dispatched to fuel based on a radio call.

Thus, the tow limits and other such data would be completely lost on the cute chick that was manning the desk inside the FBO.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 2:16:30 PM EDT
[#5]
Yup, and also as a former line guy supervisor I can say for a fact a line guy isn't going to even think about tow limits on small planes. Even if you have neon orange light up markings painted on you nose strut, they won't see it. Can't even count how many Mooney's I've seen over turned. There is only one way to ensure your airplane isn't damaged and that is to be there while it's moved. FBO's view small planes as nothing but a pain in their ass, they make no money on them, and want them gone. Remember that when you let them service your plane. And be there when they do!
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 2:29:18 PM EDT
[#6]
I am not saying that such stickers or signs are a bad idea but I would have to assume that they would never actually be followed (or even noticed) if I wasn't there to supervise it.
Link Posted: 2/14/2020 11:39:23 AM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Yup, and also as a former line guy supervisor I can say for a fact a line guy isn't going to even think about tow limits on small planes. Even if you have neon orange light up markings painted on you nose strut, they won't see it. Can't even count how many Mooney's I've seen over turned. There is only one way to ensure your airplane isn't damaged and that is to be there while it's moved. FBO's view small planes as nothing but a pain in their ass, they make no money on them, and want them gone. Remember that when you let them service your plane. And be there when they do!
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Yup, and also as a former line guy supervisor I can say for a fact a line guy isn't going to even think about tow limits on small planes. Even if you have neon orange light up markings painted on you nose strut, they won't see it. Can't even count how many Mooney's I've seen over turned. There is only one way to ensure your airplane isn't damaged and that is to be there while it's moved. FBO's view small planes as nothing but a pain in their ass, they make no money on them, and want them gone. Remember that when you let them service your plane. And be there when they do!
That has not been my experience at all. With the exception of the fucktards at Landmark at KRDU (It's Signature now, and if it's the same people, fuck them), I have always been treated as if the possibility exists that I could be the chief pilot of a corporate operator and flying my own plane.

I keep waiting for Trump to put someone at the top of the FAA to drop the hammer on the predatory practices by the FBOs. I have been flying in and out of PBI for a decade and when Trump was running for office in 2016, I heard stories from FBO employees talking about how pissed he was at the FBOs for taking him to the cleaners on fees for his 757 and not offering fuel discounts for overpriced Jet-A. I suspect they're somewhere on his list of people to exact revenge against and what needs to happen is twofold:

* Penalties need to be attached to violating grant assurances to give the regs some teeth, something I'm guessing wasn't necessary when the civil aviation act was passed back in the 1930s. https://www.faa.gov/airports/resources/publications/orders/compliance_5190_6/media/5190_6b_appC.pdf
* Options for self-handling of aircraft should exist if desired. Many FBOs operate in a manner that meets, at least, the Wikipedia definition of a Racket and also engage in Price Fixing. Why is it whenever you see Signature and Atlantic Aviation show up on the same field that prices skyrocket?

A racket, according to the current common and most general definition, is an organized criminal act in which the criminal act is some form of substantial business, or a way to earn illegal money either regularly, or briefly but repeatedly. A racket is therefore generally a repeated or continuous organized criminal operation. However, according to the more specific definition, racketeering constitutes extortion or criminal coercion. Originally and often still specifically, a “racket” referred to a criminal act in which the perpetrator or perpetrators fraudulently offer a service to solve a nonexistent problem, a service that will not be put into effect, or a service that would not exist without the racket. Conducting a racket is racketeering.[1] Particularly, the potential problem may be caused by the same party that offers to solve it, but that fact may be concealed, with the specific intent to engender continual patronage for this party.

The most common example of a racket is the "protection racket", which promises to protect the target business or person from dangerous individuals in the neighborhood and then either collects the money or causes damage to the business until the owner pays. The racket exists as both the problem and its solution, and it is used as a method of extortion.
A friend of mine showed up to an airport in Fort Lauderdale the week before the Superbowl in a light piston single to drop off a part. He checked the NOTAMs and there was a published Superbowl NOTAM that applied only to jet/turboprop aircraft. The airport was not busy. When he arrived, the FBO wanted $1,700 to park. They offered to waive it because he was leaving right away and he was happy to not have been required to pay, but that should have never been expected in the first place.
Link Posted: 2/14/2020 12:11:06 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

That has not been my experience at all. With the exception of the fucktards at Landmark at KRDU (It's Signature now, and if it's the same people, fuck them), I have always been treated as if the possibility exists that I could be the chief pilot of a corporate operator and flying my own plane.

I keep waiting for Trump to put someone at the top of the FAA to drop the hammer on the predatory practices by the FBOs. I have been flying in and out of PBI for a decade and when Trump was running for office in 2016, I heard stories from FBO employees talking about how pissed he was at the FBOs for taking him to the cleaners on fees for his 757 and not offering fuel discounts for overpriced Jet-A. I suspect they're somewhere on his list of people to exact revenge against and what needs to happen is twofold:

* Penalties need to be attached to violating grant assurances to give the regs some teeth, something I'm guessing wasn't necessary when the civil aviation act was passed back in the 1930s. https://www.faa.gov/airports/resources/publications/orders/compliance_5190_6/media/5190_6b_appC.pdf
* Options for self-handling of aircraft should exist if desired. Many FBOs operate in a manner that meets, at least, the Wikipedia definition of a Racket and also engage in Price Fixing. Why is it whenever you see Signature and Atlantic Aviation show up on the same field that prices skyrocket?

A friend of mine showed up to an airport in Fort Lauderdale the week before the Superbowl in a light piston single to drop off a part. He checked the NOTAMs and there was a published Superbowl NOTAM that applied only to jet/turboprop aircraft. The airport was not busy. When he arrived, the FBO wanted $1,700 to park. They offered to waive it because he was leaving right away and he was happy to not have been required to pay, but that should have never been expected in the first place.
View Quote
Who owns the ramp?  Is it govt owned and leased to the FBO giving them the right to charge for its use?

Serious question.

Take a small uncontrolled airport. If there is an FBO there and you can get to the ramp without going through their building what right do they have charging a fee for your airplane to use and briefly stop on the ramp?
Link Posted: 2/14/2020 12:48:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Who owns the ramp?  Is it govt owned and leased to the FBO giving them the right to charge for its use?

Serious question.

Take a small uncontrolled airport. If there is an FBO there and you can get to the ramp without going through their building what right do they have charging a fee for your airplane to use and briefly stop on the ramp?
View Quote
I interpret it as having to do with 5190.6b and I hope that the reason Trump is waiting on doing a lot of the things we've expected him to do has to do with the balance in the courts. High profile things, like immigration, getting shot down in the courts, or the fight for the wall have a lot of public interest; losing cases related to aviation might never see the light of day and a loss and appeal may take longer than just waiting to win when it takes little effort.

I'm sure there are the self-idolizing corrupt swinging dicks out there who will tell me that's not how things work in conflict with the publications, and there are people out there who know exactly how sponsorships, grants and assurances work and can provide more insight to the mechanisms that are in place to help with compliance of the docs. It's been my experience with most administrative types, especially at the local levels, is that they do what they want and don't read shit (see sigline).

https://www.faa.gov/airports/resources/publications/orders/compliance_5190_6/media/5190_6b_chap8.pdf
https://www.faa.gov/airports/resources/publications/orders/compliance_5190_6/

Here's where to find AIP grant recipients: https://www.faa.gov/airports/aip/grant_histories/#history
Link Posted: 2/15/2020 4:21:44 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

That has not been my experience at all. With the exception of the fucktards at Landmark at KRDU (It's Signature now, and if it's the same people, fuck them), I have always been treated as if the possibility exists that I could be the chief pilot of a corporate operator and flying my own plane.

I keep waiting for Trump to put someone at the top of the FAA to drop the hammer on the predatory practices by the FBOs. I have been flying in and out of PBI for a decade and when Trump was running for office in 2016, I heard stories from FBO employees talking about how pissed he was at the FBOs for taking him to the cleaners on fees for his 757 and not offering fuel discounts for overpriced Jet-A. I suspect they're somewhere on his list of people to exact revenge against and what needs to happen is twofold:

* Penalties need to be attached to violating grant assurances to give the regs some teeth, something I'm guessing wasn't necessary when the civil aviation act was passed back in the 1930s. https://www.faa.gov/airports/resources/publications/orders/compliance_5190_6/media/5190_6b_appC.pdf
* Options for self-handling of aircraft should exist if desired. Many FBOs operate in a manner that meets, at least, the Wikipedia definition of a Racket and also engage in Price Fixing. Why is it whenever you see Signature and Atlantic Aviation show up on the same field that prices skyrocket?

A friend of mine showed up to an airport in Fort Lauderdale the week before the Superbowl in a light piston single to drop off a part. He checked the NOTAMs and there was a published Superbowl NOTAM that applied only to jet/turboprop aircraft. The airport was not busy. When he arrived, the FBO wanted $1,700 to park. They offered to waive it because he was leaving right away and he was happy to not have been required to pay, but that should have never been expected in the first place.
View Quote
$5200 to park a G550 at Signature for 4 hours about a week and a half prior to the Super Bowl in Atlanta last year. “Event Pricing”
Link Posted: 2/16/2020 12:05:59 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I am not saying that such stickers or signs are a bad idea but I would have to assume that they would never actually be followed (or even noticed) if I wasn't there to supervise it.
View Quote
This.  It’s a nice thought, but it won’t be followed, unless you specifically give it to the sole ramper, along with a tenner.

Plus, you don’t want your cell number floating around like that.

ALWAYS be there when your aircraft is fueled.   There is absolutely NO excuse for not being there.

Try to be there if it ever has to be moved.
Link Posted: 2/16/2020 9:28:51 AM EDT
[#12]
I usually throw the ramp guy a $10. I consider it insurance for the time I run into one that’s having a bad day or is in a hurry.
Link Posted: 2/16/2020 9:39:23 AM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Who owns the ramp?  Is it govt owned and leased to the FBO giving them the right to charge for its use?

Serious question.

Take a small uncontrolled airport. If there is an FBO there and you can get to the ramp without going through their building what right do they have charging a fee for your airplane to use and briefly stop on the ramp?
View Quote
It really all is dependent on who is responsible for the ramp access. Even uncontrolled airports are supposed to be secured. No one should be able to just drive to a small airport and access an aircraft sitting there at a tie down, for obvious reasons, even the small private airport near me is fenced with locked gates.
There are laws and requirements for security that are dependent around the operations of that airport,  like passenger service. That info is privileged and not available. If you are a transient at a TSA controlled airport, you are not going to be just walking through an uncontrolled gate bypassing the  FBO.
Many other airports that are city or county owned and lease all of the available space (hangers, fuel farms and ramp) to private companies otherwise they have to hire people to upkeep. The city/county and FBO's are charged with security. As a customer of this or that company, would you be ok with some random person having access to your aircraft unchecked? That's why this hassle exists.
Link Posted: 2/16/2020 9:55:25 AM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I interpret it as having to do with 5190.6b and I hope that the reason Trump is waiting on doing a lot of the things we've expected him to do has to do with the balance in the courts. High profile things, like immigration, getting shot down in the courts, or the fight for the wall have a lot of public interest; losing cases related to aviation might never see the light of day and a loss and appeal may take longer than just waiting to win when it takes little effort.

I'm sure there are the self-idolizing corrupt swinging dicks out there who will tell me that's not how things work in conflict with the publications, and there are people out there who know exactly how sponsorships, grants and assurances work and can provide more insight to the mechanisms that are in place to help with compliance of the docs. It's been my experience with most administrative types, especially at the local levels, is that they do what they want and don't read shit (see sigline).

https://www.faa.gov/airports/resources/publications/orders/compliance_5190_6/media/5190_6b_chap8.pdf
https://www.faa.gov/airports/resources/publications/orders/compliance_5190_6/

Here's where to find AIP grant recipients: https://www.faa.gov/airports/aip/grant_histories/#history
View Quote
The federal AIP is for providing equal rights and business competition. So an operator can't be denied opening a business even though those services are already provided at the airport. The limitations are against the entity receiving the funds not the business. Capitalism takes over after that.
If you want to open an operation, undercut the competition and make a competitive environment, the AIP will assure you pay the same rate for the facilities as the the expensive guy. You will pay the same rate based on sq ft for office, hanger and ramp space.
Link Posted: 2/16/2020 9:59:05 AM EDT
[#15]
Atlantic at TMB wanted $40 for me to drop off a passenger, which is bullshit.
Link Posted: 2/16/2020 12:35:08 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Atlantic at TMB wanted $40 for me to drop off a passenger, which is bullshit.
View Quote
The gals that book the charters wrap those fees into the deal when booking.

If going somewhere to stay for some personal stuff or business in town that doesn't involve a paying customer = need to be going into the cheapest place we can. That would include dropping off a friend somewhere. You have to decide where the time is money and the price of admission based on fancy and convenient graphs line up. Most places wave fees for the minimum fuel purchase. Can you go light and still have room to buy the minimum to wave fees? You would still be buying fuel on one side or the other.

I didn't see Atlantic on airnav for TMB as a FBO. I did see they are an aircraft charter service operating jets. Are they cheaper than the FBOs at TMB or the FBOs at any of the surroundings airports?
Link Posted: 2/16/2020 6:59:52 PM EDT
[#17]
Brain fart. It was OPF, but it was still Atlantic
Link Posted: 2/20/2020 11:40:45 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Yup, and also as a former line guy supervisor I can say for a fact a line guy isn't going to even think about tow limits on small planes. Even if you have neon orange light up markings painted on you nose strut, they won't see it. Can't even count how many Mooney's I've seen over turned. There is only one way to ensure your airplane isn't damaged and that is to be there while it's moved. FBO's view small planes as nothing but a pain in their ass, they make no money on them, and want them gone. Remember that when you let them service your plane. And be there when they do!
View Quote
Was a line sup and QC manager at several large (non-chain/franchise) FBOs for years before going into MX.  That was not my experience with either my line personnel or management.  Mistakes happen for sure, but we treated everything from C-150s to BBJs the same in regards to customer service and attention to detail when servicing.  Anyone that didnt was gone PDQ.
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