And who is society? It's you and me, isn't it?

I try to make it as personal as possible, because at some point it will become clear that they are advocating stealing from me, by force, and using the government as their weapon.
And I'll tell them that they don't even have the courtesy to rob me on their own. They hire it out.

And THAT, my friends, is what privilege looks like.

I guess I could say that if anybody every claimed that there is right well-maintained roads.

Everyone has a right to health care the question is do you have the money to pay the person given the health care what said person wants for said services? People want others to pay for there health care and there is no right to others money. Yes it is really that simple.

Who's on the other end of your right ?

Yeah, I love that one. When has the government made something better by meddling in it?

Don't you think that individuals know what they need more appropriately than the .gov does?
Children need to be told what to do. Is that what you want?

Well said!

Well yes that is correct, but I still missed the health care part.

They see it as the same as the police and fire dept. These are all provided by the government and paid by taxes.

Only recently though. That used to be taken care of without the governments help, somehow.

Of course........I point out how much the government provided health care will cost in taxes.

If health care is a right, how are the health care providers forced to provide it?  Indentured servitude?  Slavery of health care professionals?  Do we force doctors and nurses at gun point?

That is a stupid argument. Are police forced to work for free? No. Healthcare is assumed by some to be a public service that should be provided by the government. So the governemnt woukd pay healthcare workers like they pay police or fire.

There is no RIGHT to the services or products provided by another person.   You can ask.  You can make a deal. But to say it is a RIGHT is bullshit.

Whatever it is that I do, you have no right to take my output.  You have to meet my price.

For you and I? Absolutely they do. White men/rich people (whichever is more advantageous for the argument at that time) are responsible for all of the world's ills, and we owe everyone because of it.

Ironically, I barely have two nickles to rub together these days, and I'm about the same amount of white as our first black president. But I bet if you ask 100 antifa, blm, or cpusa protesters if I need to pay more because it's "fair", damn near 100 would take one look and say "yes".

At the end of the day, single payer will happen here for the same reason it has happened in all the other western nations. We let the left infiltrate all information gathering and distribution, and they have done a fantastic job framing the argument.

You don't have a right to police protection.

You don't have a right to have a service provided by someone else.  Shouldn't, anyway.

I never mentioned rights in my post. It is a public service.

You should have a right to self defense.  You don't have a right to have a body guard.

True.  The thread is about, to quote, "a right to health care."

I heard that from a liberal that works in my building, I asked the idiot to show me where in the Constitution the right to health care is enumerated.

He seemed stunned that I have a Constitution app on my phone. Then proceeded to guess, repeatedly, before he finally quoted the Declaration of Independence. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..." Although he couldn't actually quote the actual text just we have the Right to Life, Liberty and Happiness part. And that Right to Life applies to health care. So there.

When I pointed out that was from the Declaration he tried to tell me that it's the "opening statement" of the Constitution. He was also confused that I have a Declaration app on my phone too. After explaining the Declaration predates the Revolutionary War and that the Constitution wasn't signed until 1787 he told me I didn't know what I was talking about, got mad and walked off. I have made it a habit to ask him if's found what the right to health care is enumerated when I see him. He used to say fuck you when I'd ask and walk away, now he just dodges me when he sees me.

That's the only upshot here. The size of our welfare state is enormous already. Once a few states go Medicaid-for-all, then start doling out to illegals as well, it'll crash and burn pretty quick. It might be the first time a generation that asked for socialism was still around to pay for it.

Thank you for this—I’m a general & trauma surgeon and support national access to healthcare, which is what people currently have.

Regarding taxpayers footing the bill—we already have our taxes being used for Medicare & Medicaid, which pay pennies on the dollar.  That’s why private practice doctors limit how much TriCare, Medicare & Medicaid they see.  In some instances, it costs us more money than we are paid, once overhead, malpractice and other expenses are factored in.  When I explain medicine as a basic business, most people get it, but the Leftist/Socialists see me as a wealthy, selfish bastard who should work for free, since i’m a gazillionaire....

What right do you have to another person's labor to pay for the police to protect your property, or the courts to adjudicate a dispute, or the military to protect you from external threats, etc.?

The distinction between negative and positive rights doesn't really survive any sort of serious philosophical scrutiny.  It's attractive to teenagers reading their first Ayn Rand novel perhaps, but is not logically sound.

“True believers” have moved on from right to healthcare to public good.

lol

I would love “mandatory payment” for services rendered.  My introduction to Medicare was in 1999 when they refused to pay for my removing a skin cancer off a man’s back.  After a year of chasing payment and the cost of chasing payment—Medicare threatened fines & imprisonment for pursuing an unpaid bill over a year old.  You see, after a year, as a Medicare partipating provider, we agree under pain of fine & imprisonment that we will NOT chase them for payment after a year, but will write-off the bad debt.

I wish I could stop seeing Medicare & Medicaid.

Except that they are NOT entitled individually to police or fire protection. Those services exist for the public in general, and no specific service is owed to the individual.

You have enough of a client base for concierge services?

No, general & trauma surgery doesn’t work like that. Few people plan to have appendicitis, cholecystitis, gun shot wounds, falls & broken ribs, hernias, bariatric surgery, etc., etc....

Internal medicine is where “Concierge Medicine” developed.

I guess I could solicit the Mafia for gun shot wounds....

...speaking of juvenile arguments...

All of what you outlined are functions which exist for the benefit of the public in general, and NONE are guaranteed individual services.

And the only thing government can give is a privilege, in the case of health care the privilege would be the use of my money for there health care, money that I may need for my health care. The only reason a government would do this is votes. As one can surely argue that there is no moral grounds for taken from one person what he has worked for and giving it to another person.

Edit: What should make any responsible citizen mad is that money they have been forced to pay to the government for health care be used to cure a person that does not contribute to the system and does not take care of themselves of some disease such as cancer caused by smoking leaving no money to cure my ills. Government healthcare is perhaps the worst evil placed on people in the name of good know to man.

This is part and parcel of why obese people enrage me so.

I will end up paying for the shitty lifestyle choices.

And smokers.

No, they will get what they are asking for, because they don't understand what they are actually asking for.

I think they have a right to do said things they just don't have a right to my money to fix them. At least with private insurance( no precondition mandate) one can weed out bad habits that will cost responsible people there money. Then if I feel charitable I can donate to their care in what ever way I deem best.

Which is how rights work!

I usually follow that up by asking the person how their application to med school went and when does their residency start.

If you say so.

All I'm saying is that if you work in the health insurance industry you might want to be making plans for the next stage of your career.

Because single payer/universal health care or some sort is coming like winter in Game of Thrones.

This was the hangup I've had in the past with a "right" to healthcare. After it was brought to my attention that if I had such a "right" it would require someone to be coerced into providing it. I concluded that I have no "right" to their services, however, they do have a right to provide their services to anyone for whatever terms and conditions they may choose. The State should have no say in who they treat, thus allowing me access to healthcare providing I can meet the terms that they will agree too.

The left knows that these things aren't rights.  They just sell them as rights in order to dilute the meaning of the term thus making it easier to take away your actual rights.

Speaking of thinking things through before kneejerking, someone said "If you don't have a right to healthcare, then the government can restrict your ability to get healthcare." Well, let's see.

You don't have a right to get your hair cut.

You don't have a right to get a massage.

You don't have a right have your house painted.

You don't have a right to have your car washed.

You don't have a right to eat in a restaurant.

So, who votes that the government can outlaw haircuts, massaging, painting, washing, and cooking and serving? Anybody?

Nobody, I hope. In fact, whether you have a right to those services or not you have the right voluntarily contract with others to perform any act which is not injurious to nonparticipants. Your "right" to healthcare carries no more weight than your "right" to a haircut. In each case you are entitled to bargain for the benefit; in neither case are you entitled to compel others to provide or pay for the benefit. The right is the right to pursue, not the unalloyed right to enjoy.

All fundamental rights are negative rights. They are entitlements to noninterference, not entitlements to the aid or acts of others. You are entitled to breathe. You are not entitled to artificial respiration. If the purported right to healthcare mandates wealth redistribution to effectuate it, society is obliged to provide us with everything to which we have a notional right: guns, houses, cars, clothes, food, recreation, churches, and on and on.

There are of course some positive "rights," but they are sloppily named. They are actually privileges or entitlements, typically created by law. Social Security and welfare are examples. Health care will be another one if the reds engineer a government takeover. Rest assured that just as the sheriff is not liable for failing to respond to a 911 call, only statutory claims are enforceable against the Social Security Administration, and there is no claim for welfare benefits if a statute reduces or eliminates them, the government will have absolutely no liability for failing to provide medical care after they have taken over the whole shooting match. The nearest clinic or emergency room is 50 miles away? Too bad. 6 month wait to see a GP? Too bad. 2 years to get a skin cancer cut off? Too bad. You'll see then what the "right" to healthcare amounts to.

I say it more directly. I tell them that if they think that healthcare is a right, then they believe in slavery.

You have a right to pay for it.

Look at the bright side, if theres a "right" to healthcare and other people's labor, then the second amendment means we don't have a right for access to guns we can afford, but a right to guns themselves, for free. I think I'm getting a free Tavor, always wanted one of those, and its my right.

They want socialized health care for a reason. This is why they call it a "right".

See rule number one

8 rules for a social state

1) Healthcare — Control healthcare and you control the people

2) Poverty — Increase the Poverty level as high as possible, poor people are easier to control and will not fight back if you are providing everything for them to live.

3) Debt — Increase the debt to an unsustainable level. That way you are able to increase taxes, and this will produce more poverty.

4) Gun Control — Remove the ability to defend themselves from the Government. That way you are able to create a police state.

5) Welfare — Take control of every aspect of their lives (Food, Housing, and Income).

6) Education — Take control of what people read and listen to — take control of what children learn in school.

7) Religion — Remove the belief in the God from the Government and schools.

8) Class Warfare — Divide the people into the wealthy and the poor. This will cause more discontent and it will be easier to take (Tax) the wealthy with the support of the poor.

Bingo!  This is the correct response.  Anyone who says healthcare is a right has no fundamental understanding of what a right truly is...now, some may believe that we as a nation/people have a duty to provide those less fortunate with healthcare, but to go so far as to call it a right (something that requires someone else's investment or service) is just wrong-headed.