Kind of off topic, but I applaud you for walking the walk, and not having your kids in a socialized system.

You're assuming the wheels are going to stay on forever.

They're not.    That will sort things out one way or another.

You are deluded if you think the R party is actually pro gun any more.  There may be a few "pros" in there, but they're outliers.

That's my take on it as well.  I'm self-employed and buy my own insurance.  Before Obamacare, my deductibles were reasonable ($1000) and so was the premium.

Now the individual deductibles are up to nearly $9,000.  Even for this horrible plan, the premiums are over three times higher.   And some people thought gov't involvement would lower prices?  WTF.

What they should have done is made a special program for pre-existing conditions folks.  Rather than bend over everyone and screw up the entire medical system.  Put them in Medicare/Medicaid or something similar.

OP is insane and a pussy quitter.

Veterans Health Administration.

I've lost any ability to tell when someone on here is trolling, just retarded or a true believer.

A broken clock is right for two minutes per day. The problem is, it's wrong the rest of the 1438 minutes in the day.

You can get good care under socialized medicine. The problem is, most people do not.

Can’t get blood out of a turnip.

I have cancer, it took 4 months to get surgery, I got to pay on top of my "free" health care, my paying 1/3 of my wages in taxes notwithstanding. If I hadn't had benefits from work (which I also pay for) I may very well have died from a lack of getting my medicine ( $3000 a month for first 6 months until things leveled out)

I get a checkup every month for the rest of my life, and I cant do it in my town (.Gov says so) so I get a 3 hour drive, 1-4 hour wait for a 15 minute checkup then drive back.

I would gladly pay for my own healthcare and not subsidize everyone else. You can keep your socialism, it just reinforces entitlement

I don't believe you.

You seem to be under the impression that she had benign abdominal pain and they rushed her to surgery to fix it.

Assuming the severe pain had a rapid onset (<24 hrs), that's acute abdomen. Depending on the cause, it can be rapidly fatal.

The fact that they got her into surgery for something that could be rapidly fatal isn't world-class medicine, that's pretty much standard for any health care system that isn't garbage.

Our health care system is in bad shape now. Let's go ahead and make it worse. That's socialized health care. Call me a pessimist, but I don't think anything the government would do will make it better. The one thing you can count on if government gets more involved and changes are made is that taxpayers will pay more in taxes but not get more in service.

Up until about 1954

So, much like Obama, your response to a broken system is to break it more and claim you fixed it?

Agreed

First off, define "big money".

Yes, Socialism is bad.  Collectivism is Bad.  Tyranny of the majority is bad.  We eat the "socialized corn" because the government has made that so.  We still have to eat, but that does not mean we want it subsidized.  Our worst schools are public schools (but if government does it, it's inherently the best, right?).  I know economics might seem complex, but the basics are quite easily understood.

Lesson 1:  Government has no money. It has only what it takes from you at the point of a gun.  If you don't think the gun exists, then stop paying your taxes and see what happens especially if you try to resist arrest.
Lesson 2:  Economic growth is attained by someone using their labor to produce something someone else wants to trade for.
Lesson 3:  The system described in Lesson 2 is called The Market.  The Market has built in pricing and value systems that are determined by what people are willing to/can pay, and what the producer is willing to sell for, in a voluntary trade.  Government/central planners have no mechanisms for determining value and where resources are better allocated.

Socialism is force.  It is an anti-liberal (in the real sense of the term), anti-individualistic system that forces people into a collective will (which also makes the narcissistic assumption that the collective will be your vision of it and that it is for everyone else's good whether they like it or not).  More Socialism means a bigger State, which inherently, means less liberty.  It denies you and I the right to use the results of our labor which is our property in a manner we see fit because the collective forcibly takes it from us and tells us it's for our own good, or else.  Just because some things might be done under government through taxation is not a reason to go full bore Socialist.

Competition creates choice.  Competition lowers cost.  Competition breeds innovation.  Innovation breeds better solutions.  State programs have no reason to compete and they get your money whether you use them or not and then raise your taxes when they are eventually mismanaged.  When businesses fail, they usually just die and something else moves in to fill the void.  When government programs "die", government just reanimates the corpse.

You do realize that the government has effectively regulated away any free market mechanisms to drive down cost out of the picture, right?  Besides, when you pay for insurance, you're not paying for healthcare, you're paying on a gamble.  I swear, you Socialists sympathizers are the least creative thinkers I've ever seen.  "Oh, magic government will do it for us!"

Turning to government won't make it cheaper or more efficient.  Government has never done that.  If you're so unhappy, then move to one of the other Socialized countries.  There's more of them to choose from after all, and then leave us the hell alone and get your hands out of my pockets.

That sure sounds familiar.

If you just made it bigger and added more layers you could fix all that mismanagement!

Make Bo mistake I don't think socialized medicine will be better or cheaper but it's going to happen. We don't have the numbers to stop it.  Our system has been destroyed successfully and that is the only way to replace it .

The only question is how long will it take.  I personally think if we wait to long to accept this the system will be so bad that Democrats will get complete control over how socialist healthcare is implimented and paid for.  As healthcare costs grow so will their majority.

If we come to the table now we may have enough power to impliment it in the fairest and least destructive way possible .

The public has already embraced the idea that everyone gets care and rejected the idea that you should just pay directly for it.  That leaves two options.  Force everyone to buy insurance or have single payer

so we should just decide it's cool to get ass fucked by a jack hammer, and just argue over 100 psi or 125?

The system was manageable before obamacare.  why is pre-obamacare insurance structure plus tort reform not an option?  How is it fair to just double (or more) the taxes for everyone actually paying while continuing to pay millions of others to sit home and just keep giving them more free shit?  People on this board are ready to impeach Trump over bumpstocks, but implementing communist healthcare is perfectly fucking fine?  Fuck that.

This is a gun forum. Gun people think guns are a much bigger issue for the public and for politicians than they really are.

IDGAF

All I want is a system that doesn't leave me with the Sword of Damocles over my head every time I go to the doctor. There is no reason for the system to be as fucked up as it is, and a huge part of the problem is the massive for-profit insurance industry acting as a middle-man. For profit healthcare and especially for-profit health insurance can suck it.

Healthcare was not good before Obamacare.  Repealing ovamacare won't fix it just slow down the destruction that 100 years of fascist government control was already causing.

Democrats will NEVER let us unfuck what has been done.  Too many people already believe a single payer system would be better than our fascist system.  Which is debatable.   Only a small handful of us are willing to unfuck this system and it's never going to happen.

Once again our best bet is to be the ones who craft the new system so it's not too progressive in how it's paid for and as cheap as possible.

You have a single anecdotal, 2nd-hand experience with Canadian healthcare?  So you recognize that your opinion is based on one of the simplest and most faulty of logical fallacies, right?

I have many personal accounts of dealing with NHS in Germany and Finland.

Internal auditing of the Finnish NHS was pretty scathing.  Canada's NHS is no example of how to do it either.

The VA in the US is superior to them both, but limited to a very tiny population percentage in the US.

We often have used the private sector in Finland since NHS is such an abortion.

Government does not belong in the business of interfering with the relationship between me and my healthcare providers.

I'm all about the military-related advancements in EMS, but Congress has screwed over healthcare costs in the US exponentially.

It's just a matter of time.

The current system is irretrievably broken.

Even people who have decent employer provided "insurance" are starting to see that.

I posted links to this before but it didn't seem to get noticed...probably trying to be too edgy.

Anyhow if you want free-market healthcare, even today, you can get it.  Pay cash, and this is what healthcare/surgery actually costs.  It's not that bad.

They have actual prices for actual surgeries listed on their website.  Completely destroying the opaque nature of healthcare pricing -- amazing in itself.

If you don't have insurance, or your deductible is sky high, this could be an option.  Also, some people are taking the prices off this website and using it to force their local hospital to price match -- effectively using it as a bargaining tool.  That's the free market in action.

We might indeed have socialized healthcare in America.  I see it coming.  People want solutions to their problems, so they ask government to "fix it."

It will fail, miserably.  And we will eventually trend back towards freedom and efficiency.  Because that is the real answer to this problem.

Oklahoma Surgery Center website

Surgery Center of Oklahoma

I've got my drink on so I'll just say my final thoughts on the matter.

I've had too many friends treated poorly by the Canadian health system. A few just dealt with delays in care that negatively effected their health, one died due to a delay that would not have happened where I live in the USA.
If you want to impose that system on me and the ones I care about in the last bastion of true freedom, fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

The part in red is proof that hussein-a-care is worked as planned.

I LOL'd at the part in blue.  The lower half of income earners in the US will never pay an income tax again.