Dr. Jackson was on the team in the 1970’s that physically examined the shroud. I have heard him talk in person and the “coincidence” of many data points is beyond the fabrication ability of anyone, or any group, before modern scientific knowledge. The confluence of data points needed to arrive at the Shroud’s ongoing discoveries is, simply, beyond any one individual or group: especially over centuries.

I'll watch this shortly,  thanks. I find the Shroud interesting.

As a Protestant l WANT to believe the Shroud of Turin is the burial shroud of our Lord and Savior.  If it could be proven true it would be beyond cool!

But so many relics have been lost to the passage of time that l have my doubts about this one.  

Look at what was lost during the various sackings of Jerusalem over the past 2000 years.  

Many relics were removed to Constantinople.  And it was sacked twice, at least once,  by Christian crusaders!  And the Ottomans didn't do it any favors when they sacked it.  What true relics had survived were scattered to the winds and subsequently lost.  

Although l have no doubt that it IS someones, l know my faith is not based on whether it is Christ's or not.

And maybe that's why true relics that had survived were then lost.  So we place our faith in Jesus and not things.

Like l said,  l WANT to believe but l think it will always be a believe or faith.  Either you believe it is, or you believe it isn't.  And l find myself in the latter group wanting to be in the former.  

Peace to all who do believe though.

It is either real or it is the greatest hoax in all of human history.

Some of the history seems to be a bit on the shady side, but the image is rather hard to explain.

To the people who think it is a hoax, no evidence will ever "prove" that it is "real", and to the faithful nothing will ever prove that it isn't.

ETA: Walter McCrone and his merry little band determined to their satisfaction that it was bullshit, and was created during the middle ages for a church which needed a "relic" to attract pilgrims, who would put something in the pot.

If I recall correctly, the manner in which the main image was made was with intense light which burned only small layers, not even penetrating entire threads, in an instant. It's not pigmentation from an outside source.

The idea that it was made by folks using middle ages technology is risible.

The fact that the main image is a photographic negative is also something which would be unusual for a middle ages production.

Care to have a shot at explaining where the fuck it was until 1354?

What’s really gonna bake your noodle is when you look at the facial napkin in Spain...because the blood patterns match up to the Shroud, have the same rare pollen and the blood type is also rare AB.

And the provenance of the napkin is a lot better than the shroud

The pool of Bethesda was for over 1000 years thought to be proof that the Gospels were fallible.


Modern archeology showed the pool to be exactly where it should be with the same number of porticos. Here’s a picture I took of it last year.

Attached File


You raise a good question, but something being lost is not proof of something being fake or wrong.

A lot of places in the eastern Roman empire, though most recent prior to the time of its European presence was the Byzantines held it.

Have a blast with the historical research in this document:
https://www.shroudofturin.com/Resources/CRTSUM.pdf

Yep. AB+ is a very rare blood type, and not at all common in the regions where it could be claimed to have been manufactured (think single digits %):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_type_distribution_by_country

Blood type wasn't discovered until 1901. So what are the odds that multiple artifacts/occurrences (shroud, sudarium, eucharistic miracles) would all have the SAME rare blood type when they all PRECEDE knowledge of such a thing? That alone bears answering.

The imagery of the shroud would have to have been made on a 3D "mold". It has 3 dimensional depth which, when combined with the other factors is a compelling argument.

Some examples of the various arguments (blood type, pollens, weaving pattern, cloth type, imagery, etc.) are here: https://blog.magiscenter.com/blog/facts-about-shroud-turin

For someone, or even a group, to get ALL this right in a single object is mind bogglingly improbable. And then to have it share features of blood stain placement, etc., with another separately produced item with a different history of coming to Europe and have them be called fakes is... well, just bonkers from any logical perspective.

In the face of such evidence, I would think it wouldn't be easy to reproduce exactly with middle age technology. If it's fake, why haven't they been replicated with ALL the features and facts? Why wouldn't we see other examples of this technology in other historical objects? Why wouldn't we have writings detailing at least something about methods which *could* produce such an image and other factors?

It's either exactly what it's claimed to be, or, without historical evidence of the ability to make such an object, it's essentially an archaeological OOPArt since it cannot have come from middle ages technology and methods of art production.

My issues with it are..Jesus looks like a white guy and He didn’t have a beard when He was buried.  Per Isaiah...but there is a beard on the shroud.

Doesn’t really matter except the cool factor.  

The Christians had a lot more on their plate than collecting relics. Most of them were afraid for their lives.
The relic collecting came about some 300+ years later.
Seems like there is a commandment about graven images.

Ah the old Xmas tree is idolatry argument

The man in the image doesn't look exceptionally different from many of the people I saw in the middle east, who are... well, white/caucasian. Especially if they were to be depicted without the benefit of the sharp focus of modern photography. I would suspect anyone who has served in Iraq can agree that it's not as visually homogenous as say, Nigeria.

There is no mention in the NT, which is fairly specific about what Christ went through, of them ripping his beard out at all, much less completely.

However, it probably wouldn't be out of the question that they ripped out *some* beard hair. But the Isaiah prophecy doesn't necessitate complete removal of facial hair.

numbers added for easier demarcation of replies.

1) Seems like a rather gratuitous assertion, especially as concerns a relic of Christ Himself, containing His physical blood. You want us to believe that Christ had just resurrected, the burial cloths are specifically mentioned, and the Apostles just left them there? And then later on, had they not been abandoned by the Apostles, they were just abandoned because people who had the courage to face martyrdom were somehow too scatterbrained to protect what would be one of the most important relics in history?
2) Relics are throughout scripture and would have been very at "home" in the culture of the time (https://www.scripturecatholic.com/catholic-relics/).
3) It's not a graven image in the sense of which God commanded against, which was against idols to be worshiped. (https://www.scripturecatholic.com/images-statues-relics-holy-water/)

ETA note: clarify a statement due to poor phrasing.

Are you serious?

Aside from the fact that by its very definition a piece of cloth can't be a graven image ,as it is not carved, hewn, or blunted into existence, you are essentially discussing idolatry which too would not apply.

The interpretation of what constitutes a "graven image/idolatry" in the manner you are using, as in a representation, is a new interpretation coming out of Evangelical and fundamentalist beliefs that are no more than 350-400 years old. It is not the Biblical, Historical, or Traditional meaning of idolatry.

Even so, would you consider marveling over the actual burial shroud of Christ Himself, the very person you consider Lord and Savior, to be an example of idolatry? ; The cloth that could have covered our crucified savior after His death and during His resurrection is tainted by idolatry?

Serious question: Is a cross then an example of a graven image? How about a painting of Christ?

We are Christians not Muslims.

I personally find it very hard NOT to believe it is thr Shroud of our Lord. If Our Lord protected the very home he grew up in (see house of Loretto) why would jot protect this item of His Passion.

Instead of nitpicking, stand back, look at it.

1. Out vast scientific analysis can't fake it.

2. It is a man crucified WITH Nails. Very expensive and to prove a point.

3. This man was crowned with thorns!! Who and WHY would you do this?

4. His legs were not broken as per normal operational procedure

5. He was stabbed in his side.

6.oh yeah he was scourged!!!


Those are all non-miracles and they would prove the shrouds authentication.


To me, not to believe it is cognitive disassociation. But, it is not required for Faith either.

Well said!

I have on my desk here SACRED BLOOD, SACRED IMAGE, THE SUDARIUM OF OVIEDO by Janice Bennett.  It is an excellent summary of the napkin, how the thorn holes and blood stains align with the stains in the shroud.  Two separate cloths, continents apart with a shared history.  The book is fascinating and full of background details. Huge Coincidence?  Probably not.  

I'd love to believe, this is a fascinating topic for me but I myself have come to no conclusion.  There was  a research team in Italy that analyzed the shroud in detail a couple of years ago, showing the chain links, the Tefilin on the arm, even showing the hints of a belt around the waist.  The elongated hand was shown to be captured movement at the moment of "awakening" or resurrection.  I can no longer find the viceo unfortunately. Edit: Found it.

Interestingly , the miracle of lanciano involves blood type AB as well.

Actually I think you’re reading into it. He offered His cheeks to those that plucked out His beard.  The shroud appears to show the center of the beard removed.  Nowhere does Isaiah say the WHOLE beard is removed; only that he offered (turned?) his cheeks (for striking?)

More interestingly, look at how the Septuagint renders it:

6I gave my back to scourges, and my cheeks to blows; and I turned not away my face from the shame of spitting:

Not to pile on, but I don't see how anyone who believes that Holy Scripture is the Word of God can take this position.

In the Pentateuch, we see graven images many times.  Most famously, the Lord Himself tells them to make a brazen serpent.  We also see images in the temple.  Does God contradict Himself?  Of course not.

this point comes from the church not letting the researchers collecting a sample from close to the center but only on the repaired edge.
It is known that the shroud was repaired after a fire in the 1300's.
Therefore, if you know that the sample is from a repair, why are they surprised that the carbon 14 dating would return a date in the 1300's?

Now I haven't watched it, as I have seen some things on it already. But to me, it is for those who seek a sign. It is a fascinating artifact of some kind. But if your belief in Christ hangs on it, you have some work to do.

I don't think anyone here is stating that, condoning that, or has a faith as weak as that.

However, God does provide some miracles, and has, throughout the ages for whatever reason He deems necessary.

Username checks out?

Who has said their belief hangs on the Shroud?

Plus it's a 3D pixelated negative on a 2D surface.

They ran it through an early map 3D imager and it came out as a 3D face.

And then there's the Sudarium of Oviedo...