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Posted: 2/22/2021 7:15:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/22/2021 7:23:56 PM EST by jough43]
Latest edition of Guns & Ammo Handguns magazine:
              Muzzle Energy.      Recoil Factor
9mm       332 (115 grain)           0.65
.40SW.    506 (165 grain)           0.74
10mm.    523 (175 grain)           0.96
.45ACP.   411 (185 grain)           0.93

The .40S&W looks like it spanks them.  Yep, even 10mm, with 9mm recoil.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:15:50 PM EST
Implying that means Jack shit.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:16:13 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:16:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:18:15 PM EST
Do squats if your ass is weak.

Can't help you with the height though.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:18:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/22/2021 7:18:57 PM EST by SavageTexan]
WTF!? I love .40 S&W now!
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:18:52 PM EST
Stop!

The caliber Gods have spoken.  .40 S&W now sucks.

Get back to me in 10 years when it's all the rage again.  
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:19:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/22/2021 7:20:58 PM EST by AS556]
.40 is a good round..always has been. Just like all the service calibers they do the job they're intended to.

I use a beat up M&P 40 full size with 180gr HST for HD. Don't feel bad about leaving it out and TSUSA had LE overrun HST for $15/50 a couple years ago.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:21:02 PM EST
I prefer shooting the 180 grain loads.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:21:30 PM EST
Curious what their methodology is.

Muzzle energy goes up exponentially due to velocity. Comparing 2 bullet weights that aren't common (most .40 and 10mm use 180 grain bullets) would be a more accurate and fair comparison.

Also curious how they calculate "Recoil Factor"

.40 S&W isn't my favorite caliber but compared to other pistol rounds it's no slouch. With modern JHP's the argument is pretty irrelevant anyways. Pistols suck at killing people.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:22:22 PM EST
What exactly does this prove? That the .40 accomplished pretty much what the FBI wanted it to and still isn't as good as the 9mm?
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:24:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:25:15 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SavageTexan:
WTF!? I love .40 S&W now!
View Quote
Attachment Attached File

Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:27:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By jough43:
Latest edition of Guns & Ammo Handguns magazine:
              Muzzle Energy.      Recoil Factor
9mm       332 (115 grain)           0.65
.40SW.    506 (165 grain)           0.74
10mm.    523 (175 grain)           0.96
.45ACP.   411 (185 grain)           0.93

The .40S&W looks like it spanks them.  Yep, even 10mm, with 9mm recoil.
View Quote



I have to disagree. Today's factory loaded 10mm is weak compared to legitimate hand loaded 10mm and the old Norma ammo.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:27:55 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AS556:
.40 is a good round..always has been. Just like all the service calibers they do the job they're intended to.

I use a beat up M&P 40 full size with 180gr HST for HD. Don't feel bad about leaving it out and TSUSA had LE overrun HST for $15/50 a couple years ago.
View Quote

Actually, .40 sucks. It was designed to answer a question that should have never been answered and was designed for politicians to feel good.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:29:13 PM EST
James Yeager says the 40 S&W sucks.

Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:29:41 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bass_Assassin:

Actually, .40 sucks. It was designed to answer a question that should have never been answered and was designed for politicians to feel good.
View Quote



.40 doesn't suck at all. It reliably expands and penetrates through lots of different barriers and you can stuff a decent amount in a magazine.  That's about all you can ask out of a service pistol caliber.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:33:33 PM EST
Your assumption is ONLY valid if the VELOCITIES needed to generate those ME values are in fact actual velocities, fired through common in use barrel lengths, and not test barrels of abnormal lengths.

IIRC, after the first few years of fairly respectable factory loads that were pretty stout, the factories started downloading the 40 S&W cartridges DOWN due to all the whining from people crying about the recoil. Those "people" being a lot of folks that were expected/mandated to use the cartridge on/in their jobs.

I've seen several articles over more recent years that have talked about the real world energy figures between 9mm,40,45 not being that significantly different in real world practical applications, IN THEIR RESPECTIVE FACTORY LOADINGS. (Preceding comment based on bullet weights being as close to each other as they can be).

Yes, there are different energy level developed by the cartridges in question. But in the real world, is it enough of a difference that a person hit in the same place by each of the three rounds could/would know the difference.

Comments above are intended to spur real science and physics based discussion on the topic, not to solicit a bunch "my cartridge is best cartridge just because I like it."

Flame on!!!!!
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:33:35 PM EST
It's hard enough to find ammo. .40 is even harder.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:33:49 PM EST
I like them all.  .45 has always been the smoothest for me, more of a straight backward thump than a snappy flip.  

With that said, I carry a G19.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:34:05 PM EST
Had one. Wanted to like it. Didn't.

Won't be getting another.

YMMV
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:38:14 PM EST
Get all of them. The more calibers you have in pistols the more able you'll be to protect yourself when ammo is hard to find. 40 gets it done and does it well. I prefer 9mm for carry but I feel well protected with my 40sw duty gun.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:39:41 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AS556:
.40 is a good round..always has been. Just like all the service calibers they do the job they're intended to.

I use a beat up M&P 40 full size with 180gr HST for HD. Don't feel bad about leaving it out and TSUSA had LE overrun HST for $15/50 a couple years ago.
View Quote

This. My duty gun is the same thing. I have no issues with .40 at all. I have 9mm and .357 sig guns as well. My usual off duty carry is a M&p 40c. My other guns are sitting in the safe lately. I give up a few rounds but i am fine with it. I still carry my Glock 21 off duty sometimes as well.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:40:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/22/2021 7:45:10 PM EST by RockNwood]
Aren’t hits with most pistol rounds just warning hits, to let them know you are going for your rifle next?


I shoot mostly .40 because that is what I got in the early 90s, but really don’t consider any of them conclusive rounds. I have .45 and 9mm and would feel well armed with any of them, as far as pistols go.

However, a full house 10mm I believe is noticeably more energetic and likely to have a slight edge terminally. But still they are all pistols. I prefer a rifle if possible and if not then pretty much any pistol 9mm-.45 is fine with me.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:51:58 PM EST
Fowty is best caliber
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:53:19 PM EST
Well 10mm is downloaded to 40 short and weak these days anyway. So that means nothing.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:54:08 PM EST
Forty is the best caliber.  It'll take a stronger generation to realize and appreciate it.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:55:05 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:55:10 PM EST
Started with 9mm, then to .45, then to 40, and full circle back to 9mm again.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 7:56:59 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bass_Assassin:

Actually, .40 sucks. It was designed to answer a question that should have never been answered and was designed for politicians to feel good.
View Quote

What is it about .40 that sucks? It can kill someone. As proven many times over. You only lose a few rounds over 9mm. Big deal. It is not an uncontrollable round when fired from a full-size pistol. It’s accurate. It does what an effective pistol round is supposed to do. 9mm works too. I get it. But let’s not act like .40 is useless.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 8:02:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/22/2021 8:06:08 PM EST by jough43]
The articles states that the 10mm load tested is Hornady Critical Duty.  The Recoil Factor is from Bob Forker's Ammo & Ballistics, 6th edition.

I already knew 40>45 and 40>9mm.
Was somewhat surprised at 40 = a full 50% gain in ME over 9mm.
Was disappointed in 10mm performance.

The other disappointing thing is that new handguns are no longer being offered in .40.

Fun fact:  Glock Perfection continued the unsupported chamber at the feed ramp on .40s until Gen 5.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 8:03:03 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Exorpmtech:
Started with 9mm, then to .45, then to 40, and full circle back to 9mm again.
View Quote


Almost the same.

I like all of them. I think that capacity is a huge factor for most of us so favor the 9mm now, but shoot a 1911 the best so there's an argument for that. They all beat pepper spray and most trauma patients I get don't know/care what caliber they were shot with.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 8:07:51 PM EST
Weak 10mm loads.  Any decent 10mm GC (Gods Caliber) should have ME in the 700s.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 8:08:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/22/2021 8:09:31 PM EST by -Obsessed-]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jough43:
The articles states that the 10mm load tested is Hornady Critical Duty.  The Recoil Factor is from Bob Forker's Ammo & Ballistics, 6th edition.

I already knew 40>45 and 40>9mm.
Was somewhat surprised at 40 = a full 50% gain in ME over 9mm.
Was disappointed in 10mm performance.

The other disappointing thing is that new handguns are no longer being offered in .40.

Fun fact:  Glock Perfection continued the unsupported chamber at the feed ramp on .40s until Gen 5.
View Quote


175gr @ 1160 FPS is hardly a full power load. That's embarrassing.

Try 200gr at 1250 FPS like a full power load. Muzzle energy is 694 ft lbs. Aka 140% the energy of your beloved 40.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 8:39:28 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By -Obsessed-:
Well 10mm is downloaded to 40 short and weak these days anyway. So that means nothing.
View Quote


Buffalo bore.

10mm.  180gr, 1350fps, 728 flbs
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 9:11:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/22/2021 9:12:02 PM EST by Arty8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GGF:
James Yeager says the 40 S&W sucks.

View Quote

I "Ditched" caring what James Yeager thought years ago.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 9:14:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By jough43:
Latest edition of Guns & Ammo Handguns magazine:
              Muzzle Energy.      Recoil Factor
9mm       332 (115 grain)           0.65
.40SW.    506 (165 grain)           0.74
10mm.    523 (175 grain)           0.96
.45ACP.   411 (185 grain)           0.93

The .40S&W looks like it spanks them.  Yep, even 10mm, with 9mm recoil.
View Quote
That's an underpowered 9mm load they used. What velocity are they claiming for it? 950fps?
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 9:18:02 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 10mmManiac:



I have to disagree. Today's factory loaded 10mm is weak compared to legitimate hand loaded 10mm and the old Norma ammo.
View Quote
This! I'll bet the comparison didn't use Underwood 10mm ammo.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 9:21:50 PM EST
Looks legit. No stupid factors like ammo brand, gun brand, barrel length, etc to have to worry about. Great, now I've got to sell my 9mm, buy a .40 plus ammo, and give myself a flat top and an authoritah complex!
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 9:23:49 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RockNwood:
Aren't hits with most pistol rounds just warning hits, to let them know you are going for your rifle next?


I shoot mostly .40 because that is what I got in the early 90s, but really don't consider any of them conclusive rounds. I have .45 and 9mm and would feel well armed with any of them, as far as pistols go.

However, a full house 10mm I believe is noticeably more energetic and likely to have a slight edge terminally. But still they are all pistols. I prefer a rifle if possible and if not then pretty much any pistol 9mm-.45 is fine with me.
View Quote
That full house 10mm is going to perform beyond the desired ballistic spectrum of what is most effective on two legged targets. More recoil, over penetration, less energy transferred with more recoil. Full house 10mm loads are best for defense against wild animals.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 9:24:45 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Arty8:

I "Ditched" caring what James Yeager thought years ago.
View Quote
What you did there
I see it
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 9:25:28 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 10mmManiac:



I have to disagree. Today's factory loaded 10mm is weak compared to legitimate hand loaded 10mm and the old Norma ammo.
View Quote


Most 10mm is loaded to 40SW specs.

Most reliable source of "real" 10mm is the Sig Elite series ammo, but it still isn't quite as hot as the Norma loadings.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 9:26:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/22/2021 9:27:32 PM EST by JDennis]
.40 is not bad to shoot. I only have 1 .40, but during the 2013-2014 panic that's all I could find. Not marked up and thousands of rounds. At one point, it was the only thing walmart in stock for hand gun.  During the 3 box limit, the counter guy said I don't care, I have so much of it buy what you want. And I did

1400 rounds IIRC for 12.99 per box of 50.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 9:27:03 PM EST
LOL. Nothing of importance can be learned with that data.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 9:27:35 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Ramcharger_pilot:
I prefer shooting the 180 grain loads.
View Quote



Me too.  Feel is subjective.  

I have always liked heavy bullets and slower slide speed.  I am sure splits are slower but I feel more controlled as a shooter firearm unit.  Light and fast slide speed seems to snap the gun a bit more for a feeling of I list a bit of sight control maintained on target.

subjective.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 9:30:56 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bass_Assassin:

Actually, .40 sucks. It was designed to answer a question that should have never been answered and was designed for politicians to feel good.
View Quote

It was designed for women.


But I do carry a G23 every day.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 9:31:56 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Ramcharger_pilot:
I prefer shooting the 180 grain loads.
View Quote

180s are downloaded by the ammo makers.
155 and 165 are the sweet spot in 40 S&W
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 9:34:59 PM EST
Spouting your favorite calibers muzzle energy numbers is like peeing your pants in a dark suit. It gives you a nice warm feeling, but nobody ever notices.

There is a hell of a lot more to effective ammunition performance than just muzzle energy figures.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 9:38:50 PM EST
9mm gives higher capacity in the same size gun.

You can suck more and still maybe hit something.

I like .45 for shooting enjoyment and hitting things.

I carry .40 because I have plenty of ammo for it and can practice hitting things.

Don't own a 9mm. If I did, and had a pile of ammo, I would likely carry that instead.
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 9:39:05 PM EST
10mm 523

Sure.....
Link Posted: 2/22/2021 9:40:27 PM EST
I carry a 40 S&W on duty.  I mostly carry a Glock 19 off duty, but sometimes I carry my Colt Commander .45 acp.  I feel confident with the capabilities of all three.   That being said, I have seen a man that was killed by a fellow officer and I have personally killed a whitetail (through the shoulder) with one of those rounds.  Both of those rounds were 40 S&W.   Both stops were instantaneous.  The people that discount the lethality of the 40 S&W have no clue as to what they are talking about.
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