https://theinfidel.co/blogs/news/rare-breed-triggers-complaint-against-the-atf-and-doj

Cliff notes?

I am old and cannot find my magnifying glass.

From what I’m seeing, Rare Breed’s acting counsel and I believe co-founder submitted the design and patent to multiple retired ATF officials for their opinion before production. All 3 former ATF agents agreed that it did not meet the definition of a machine gun and Rare Breed started selling the FRT-15.

ATF then sends a cease and desist request to Rare Breed during a meeting and states that there was an examination which showed the FRT-15 met the definition of a machine gun. Rare Breed’s legal counsel then asks to see the aforementioned exam and ATF states they don’t have the exam file at this time. Rare Breed files a request to dismiss the cease and desist letter.

these guys did their damn homework, that's for certain.

"...co-founder submitted the design and patent to multiple retired ATF officials for their opinion before production."

WTF?

If true they are dumb asses to go full production without proper request for opinion of official active ATF.

They spelled "through" incorrectly.

Page 7 bullet 27.

You really took the time to read threw that?

I read it too, just to educate myself and the entire document is riddled with typos and grammatical  errors.

Part of my engineering job (retired now) was developing and writing training manuals and operating procedures for refinery machinery....I had to be exact...down to the last detail as the procedure could be used in legal and compliance issues...which some of mine did end up....all with 100% success.

When I first saw this trigger and videos were online I felt they were walking an elephant on a 1 foot ledge....

Bottom line, once again our rights are being picked away, one bone at a time...

Just my opinion....

The ATF hasn’t given a determination on anything in at least 2 years.  Ask Lage Manufacturing or Scott from A&S how much fun it is waiting on a simple determination before selling a product.  The ATF is intentionally not providing opinions/determinations anymore.  Rare Breed understood this and did the right thing.  This trigger is legal and the ATF knows it hence why they cannot provide the actual testing they did on it.  They believe they can bully and threaten Rare Breed into compliance.  Good on Rare Breed for standing up to them and taking it to court.  This is the time we should be supporting them more than ever as this is a fight worth fighting.

What did the trigger do?

Was it one of those that fire another round upon release?

Forced mechanical reset of the trigger is the basis of it.  Constant pressure and forced reset allows the trigger to be pulled extremely fast.  It is not a binary trigger.

well, I suppose those retired agents will be the company's future expert witnesses.

Gonna have to ask the BATFE in a month or so after the Aug court date.

" Whaz it feelz like to get yer shit pushed in?"

Seems like RB is gonna SIITPAPP.

Probably be a epic battle since it seems like a setup on RB's part.

Ya know lawyer office as the company addy pre drafted letter filled with typo's and I'm sure they have a whole pile of stuff just waiting to spring on the alpo boys we don't know about.

BIZCAT.JPG ( I should buy 12 RB FRT )

The part I found most amusing was that all the former ATF agents they got to provide analysis and opinion that it is not a machinegun have been used by ATF as expert witnesses in other cases. Going to be a bit hard to discredit them at trial I would imagine

They did that, sure, but I don't think it's to fuck the customers. I think it's an active 'fuck you' to the atf while also raising money for the legal battle.

We will see.

Then fight it out in court. Which was most likely part of their business strategy from the start. The GOA bumpstock suit in the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals is still alive and kicking. There's a better than even chance that GOA will prevail on the merits of the case, get the bumpstock ban overturned and maintain the current original statutory definition of a machine gun. Which will directly affect the Rare Breed trigger.

This right here has the makings of "let's troll the ATF for profit and freedom" written all over it.  #savetheFRT #TheFRTisNOTaMachinegun

Well, this certainly is a noteworthy case. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

I'm rooting for the good guys, of course.

No they did not, they fucked up by the numbers.

All evaluations go to NFA Technology Branch, especially if it might involve a MG. That is homework lesson #1.

These asshats really make the industry look bad.

Knowing your product might be classified as a machine gun, go forward and sell anyway.

Asking retired unauthorized anyone if it's cool is just baffling.

Might as well say Jimmy at Homedepot said it's not a machine gun, so were cool, let's invest and start pumping these out.

They are going to be financially destroyed and grab a criminal charge or ten and might wind up in the big house.

They didn't request a formal proper determination because they knew it would be a machine gun, not the wait.

Any money they made is gone and don't even begin legal cost.

They destroyed thier family lives for a few bucks and bragging rights on YouTube.

I feel no sympathy for them.

That's my feeling as well..... it's almost as if the "slip and fall" / DUI attorney behind all this went out of his way to solicit opinions from everyone except those who actually mattered....

I'd be a little hesitant to start sending gofundme $$ to this new "champion of our 2A rights in the battle against the ATF" ....

Took me all of about 3 minutes.

Well, aren't you guys just ferocious defenders of RTKBA?

The best way to defend RTKBA is to follow the lead of Thompson Center Arms, which Stephen Halbrook won at SCOTUS. Cutting corners just leads to a loss. This will be a loss. We will never know if they could have won if they had followed best practices.

It doesn't fit the description of a machine gun, why would you even need jimmy from Home Depot to look at it?

Do you load your 17rd mags with 10 just in case they decide to go California on us? I assume so

I think that BATFE sent the cease and desist letter rather than making an arrest/seizure because they didn't want the case to go to a court, and were hoping that RBT would crumble and comply with the cease and desist letter.  

I think that RBT had this planned all along as their legal strategy and that they largely set BATFE up.  RBT had their ducks in a row long before BATFE sent the cease and desist letter, and RBT was just waiting for BATFE to make a move so they could get the case into court and have the case decided by a court rather than by the BATFE bureaucrats.  

Then the solution that BATFE and the courts will suggest is that the definition of a machine be changed at the statutory level.  If that happens, it will depend on the politicians in power at the time.  Even the last politicians that tried to define a machine gun had a hell of a time describing what makes a machine gun.   Defining what makes a certain firearm a machine gun won't be any easier this time around.

"submitted the design and patent to multiple retired ATF officials for their opinion"
They no longer have any authority.
Waste of time.

Even a review by currently employed ATF agents, on ATF letterhead is a waste of time.

A determination letter means absolutely nothing since it's a simple determination letter which can (and has been) revoked at any time.

Not if they are considered subject matter experts by the courts and have testified in court for the ATF

I am more curious to see how the court of public opinion handles this one.. IE moms demand, bloomberg and the general public (you know the ones that think silencers are for assassins)


Especially once news stations/left organizations push videos of how easy they are to use and can outrun an actual machine gun.


Godspeed FRT, I hope this plays in your favor

I think you're mischaracterizing things a bit. The fact is, they didn't ask "Jimmy" his opinion, they asked people the AFT themselves recognize as subject matter experts. This was a smart move. There's no statutory or legal reason to ask the ATF for an opinion, and unwise to do so, considering you won't get one and the ATF has a vested interest in prohibiting any part or accessory that will allow a firearm to shoot faster than a Fudd gun.

Seems to me like companies like these have no real choice in the matter if they've already made-up their minds to sell a product, be it a short-lived 'pump-n-dump' shot or a shortly sustained legitimate business front, much in the same way it seems the BATFE had already made-up their minds from just watching the company's "rapid fire" product footage.

1) You seek a determination letter, lose all legal authority to challenge except through an appeal to their decision to be started at the federal circuit level, and likely to be lost since the Fed. Court of Circuit Appeals is a highly technical patent law court with increasingly left-leaning, young justices being appointed (2 I believe within the slow jo' regime). Oh and did I mention you have no money because you haven't sold it? You most likely lose your first hearing by unianimous siding of the justices with the ATF or simply never appeal at all, like the boys who tried the Autoglove.

2) You say 'fuck it' like Rare Breed did, but take protection first into your own hands by insulating the company from Rare Breed Firearms, legally discharge all responsibility of ownership to the end user, put your lawyer on retainer as the primary corporate proprietor,  sell your product to make the same money you'd make anyways, and sure continue protection by using that money to get consultant opinions to both A) try at the very least to cover your back in the case of litigation but also to B) improve public relations with end users over legal confidence ratings and if told to cease and desist like they were by the BATFE (first course of action for any registered business committing manufacturing violation of the NFA: many cases haven't seen such civil daylights because they were not registered as a business in a state like RBT was), enter into the same litigation you would have had to engage within (1) at a lower level in the courts like the state you're registered in as a business, giving you the legal advantage of having a "longer trail" of rulings to tread through and appeal, more clout in every subsequent hearing since another judge's opinion would have to be considered at the following tier, and ultimately prolonging your product's legal chances.

Overall though, edgy products will always be on the edge. Edge of what you may ask? Being legal or not. And so it goes.

Ian McCollum's "Forgotten Weapons" Q&A video had a segment with guest Matt of Fudd Busters going over his opinion of where the FRT-15 case would end up, and he brought up some interesting points.

Spoiler alert: Matt thinks ATF is going to win, irregardless of what the law says.

1. ATF letter of approval gives you no legal protection in court.

2. Matt does not believe the frt 15 trigger meets the laws definition of a machine gun.

3. Matt speaks in his YouTube video on FRT trigger, that recent Supreme Court ruling on Federal taxes (in his personal opinion), if applied to the NFA, would cause NFA to be ruled unconstitutional.

My personal observation, is that rulings depends upon judges agendas, witness the ninth circuit.

To me, this begs the question how many times has the ATF been sued and lost? As anticipated, Google search for answers was totally useless.

This is where I am at right now, just the optics alone if they show the RBT vs Bumpstock vs MG to a judge/jury or it gets pushed into MSM the general public will lose their minds... I really hope it goes the other way but gut feeling is ATF wins this one or they settle and the RBT silently "goes away".

As I mentioned, T/C Case.

Feds rarely lose. To start, they try not to take cases they are 100% sure they can win. If they have a weak case, they try to settle. ATF 41P as an example, they avoided a court loss by acquiescing on CLEO sig.

IMO it's bait.  They want F-Troop to come after them and they want to fight it in court.

Hearing on preliminary injunction is next Wednesday, October 6, 2021.  If Rare Breed loses the hearing, they may have to stop production until the end of the case.

What a lot of posters here are missing is:

If it is not a machine gun, why do you need ATF to approve it.  They had several former ATF subject matter experts confirm it ...a lot of you laugh at that, but these are people who TESTIFIED IN COURT MANY MANY TIMES FOR THE ATF and/or REPRESENTING THE ATF.  If the ATF says nah these former agents/subject matter experts are wrong...what does that mean for all these past cases and the former testimony...

All the people who say it's just a sell them before your shut down....I don't think that fits...they aren't making millions...and even for that kind of money doesn't seem worth the risk...if they lose any money they made is out the window having to work with the ATF to collect all the triggers.

ATF doesn't get to change established legal definitions...I say they lose in court.

I think it would be funny if they ended up doing some thing where they made rare breed stop making them, but then let everyone who has one register it on a form 4 and they increase in value to like 8k per trigger.

Good for rare breed, I support them and wish them luck...some of you guys sound like you lost your balls...

What happened yesterday in court?
Any update?

Try going month 14 on waiting for an import approval.

fuck them

I don't know why the actual FUCK the lots of you think an approval letter from the ATF is ANYTHING BUT...

They've reversed themselves so many fucken times, it's just comically stupid and retarded now and they are reincarnations of Keystone cops today.

There was a case my uncle was involved in where a war widow had her husbands MP40 up in Alaska. ATF seized it and they didn't consider the original war trophy letter to be permission or it is registered.

They fought it for many years until they lost and the ORIGINAL 1945 war trophy letter was allowed.

Then what the actual fuck happened?

OH they couldn't find the Mp40 and they actually accidently destroyed it...you know.. by accident.

Judges gave the ATF 30 days to find a replacement to register into the system or be fined tons of money.

They found a suitable replacement they had in their seized inventory and promptly had that registered to the widow.


I can go on with all of the shit they have done...that nothing surprises me anymore.


I hope RBT wins and throws titties sprinkles in their faces.

There isn't a single law anywhere that compels someone to seek "approval" from the BATFE on whether or not a firearm, firearm part, or firearm accessory is lawful.  There isn't a single law that compels the BATFE to provide such to those who request it.  There isn't a single law that makes the BATFE determination binding in any way shape or form.

The only thing a BATFE determination means is whether the agency is likely to prosecute someone or not and has fuck all to do with whether a product is lawful or not.

They did this the correct way, because by doing it this way, they have standing in court.  If they'd asked BATFE for a determination they didn't need, and BATFE didn't have to provide, and the BATFE gave them a negative determination, they have zero recourse, zero standing in court because of Chevron any court would have sided with the BATFE's determination out of hand.  Doing it this way has forced the BATFE to attempt to treat it as a criminal matter rather than a civil one, which (should) throw Chevron aside and result in an actual, legal determination to the letter of the law.  Something with lasting precedence.  Which is the entire reason BATFE even offers the industry the option of requesting determinations: To be as restrictive as possible with as little chance for relief as possible and to avoid precedent setting court cases that may or may not go their way.

Rare Breed loses the first round with the ATF in court.

No preliminary injunction, so the ATF is now free to act against them while the case is pending.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-ne-rare-breed-triggers-loses-lawsuit-atf-20211014-efhbk5l74vfhjehx5qqgycgsx4-story.html

(NOT LAWYER HERE) but in my understanding "never ask questions if you don't already know the answer to them" is standard. Rare Breed tracked down  not one, not 2, but 3 seperate former ATF instructor trainers in seperate states,  who had previously given expert legal opinions on "what is a MG" got them to sign affidavits that their product isn't a MG, got a patent, got a determination letter, THEN asked the ATF... they already KNEW the answer, they just were smart about when they "KNEW" the answer.
This is kinda like SIG poking the bear with that  "muzzle brake" thing on the 9mm PCC they had (like come on seriously??? BUT  technically legal) but they did some more leg work than SIG did.

Anybody else get an email from RBT today?

Yep.
They have WOT's listed for sale. Looks like they got them as part of a court settlement. The price is really good.
https://www.rarebreedtriggers.com/product/wot/