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Posted: 2/28/2023 5:54:34 PM EDT
In general, if you are a state-resident by issued DL of state A, but you somehow end up in state B wanting to purchase/transfer a firearm there, and you can claim both the address listed on your state A DL/ID as well as another (perhaps temporary) address in state B, are you still subject to state B's laws on waiting periods/non-resident firearm sales? What if you have a state A CCW that is reciprocated in state B? Or is that still too non-specific to answer without looking at specific state laws?

And, should you be able to at least lawfully transfer in state B, what address must (if at all) one obligingly use on the 4473? State A address that was listed on out-of-state ID/DL, or state B address?
Link Posted: 2/28/2023 7:28:47 PM EDT
[#1]
Handguns home state only, long guns depends on the state.
Link Posted: 2/28/2023 7:47:22 PM EDT
[#2]
Originally Posted By AKzgalore:
In general, if you are a state-resident by issued DL of state A, but you somehow end up in state B wanting to purchase/transfer a firearm there, and you can claim both the address listed on your state A DL/ID as well as another (perhaps temporary) address in state B, are you still subject to state B's laws on waiting periods/non-resident firearm sales?
View Quote
 
For the purposes of acquiring firearms, ATF considers you a resident of the state where you make your home. It is possible to have multiple states of residence. Where your DL is from, where you vote or pay taxes does not matter....its where you live.
Read ATF Ruling 2010-6 - State of Residence

If you reside in a state that does not allow black guns, you cannot acquire black guns in another state.
If you travel to another state, purchase a firearm, you have to abide by both your states firearms law as well as the state law where you are buying.
If you can provide government issued documentation showing your residence in state B.....for the purposes of acquiring firearms you are a resident of that state.


What if you have a state A CCW that is reciprocated in state B?Or is that still too non-specific to answer without looking at specific state laws?
View Quote

Reciprocity has nothing to do with anything related to a firearm purchase. If your state firearm permit is an exemption to NICS, that is only valid for transactions in your state.


And, should you be able to at least lawfully transfer in state B, what address must (if at all) one obligingly use on the 4473?
View Quote

Like the instructions have always said......CURRENT RESIDENCE ADDRESS.

State A address that was listed on out-of-state ID/DL, or state B address?
View Quote

If you are not presently residing at the address on your valid, government issued photo ID, you must present another government issued document that shows your name and current residence address.

Lie on the 4473 and its a felony. Be aware that some idiot FFL's will often say "your address must match what's on your drivers license"....that's not true and the instructions tell the buyer and dealer what documentation is required. Buyers who hear "your address must match what's on your drivers license" will be committing a federal felony if they don't actually reside at that address.
Link Posted: 2/28/2023 7:47:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SteelonSteel] [#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bdicki:
Handguns home state only, long guns depends on the state.
View Quote



And the long gun firearm must be legal for you to own in state A.  As a NY resident I cannot buy an AR15 in PA.

If I also had a residence in state B and would be able to store it there I do believe you are allowed.  Aka, it’s ok for the elite.
Link Posted: 2/28/2023 7:48:02 PM EDT
[#4]
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Originally Posted By bdicki:
Handguns home state only, long guns depends on the state.
View Quote

Which has nothing to do with the OP's question.
Link Posted: 2/28/2023 8:40:28 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SteelonSteel:



And the long gun firearm must be legal for you to own in state A.  As a NY resident I cannot buy an AR15 in PA.

If I also had a residence in state B and would be able to store it there I do believe you are allowed.  Aka, it's ok for the elite.
View Quote
I know of a store that would sell me an AR, they didn't seem to care about what it's status was in my home state.  I won't mention the name of the store, of course, and since I have enough lowers hangin' around, I didn't feel the need to buy a complete one.
Link Posted: 2/28/2023 9:24:30 PM EDT
[#6]
Technically..
You can present as a resident of both for the purpose of buying a firearm..with the right paperwork.
In my days behind the counter I delivered plenty of firearms to second homeowners. People using only a passport for ID and a few consecutive power bills to prove they maintained a local residence.

The Government can not restrict your constitutional right because you live someplace else for 6 months.
But they are trying..the process is the punishment.

it is perfectly legal and there is no set standard within ATF doublespeak for residency. Only that the FFL established within a reasonable course of documentation the customer meets the requirements.
You just have to prove it to the FFL’s satisfaction and that’s not going to happen.

So..
None of it matters anymore. FFL’s will run away from it these days and the fucktard call in system probably triggers a hold or denial if 2 different addresses pop up as current..but it is perfectly legal if you actually reside in that other state.
Take what you need/want with you and leave it at your second home.
Link Posted: 2/28/2023 10:09:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DogtownTom] [#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Number1gun:
Technically..
You can present as a resident of both for the purpose of buying a firearm..with the right paperwork.
In my days behind the counter I delivered plenty of firearms to second homeowners. People using only a passport for ID and a few consecutive power bills to prove they maintained a local residence.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Number1gun:
Technically..
You can present as a resident of both for the purpose of buying a firearm..with the right paperwork.
In my days behind the counter I delivered plenty of firearms to second homeowners. People using only a passport for ID and a few consecutive power bills to prove they maintained a local residence.

Unless those power bills were from a government entity, that's not acceptable. Cell phone bills, bank statements, credit card bills or any other documents from a business clearly are not acceptable. The document must be a government issued document. That means city/county/state/federal governments. If your water bill is from your city, that works. If its from a private business it does not.
Further, there is no requirement to provide "consecutive" bills or documents.


The Government can not restrict your constitutional right because you live someplace else for 6 months.

Yes, they can. Read the ruling.


But they are trying..the process is the punishment.

Huh?
Of any ATF ruling ever, this is the most liberal possible interpretation of "state of residence". The GCA restricted people on where they could buy firearms. ATF could easily have said that meant one state only, where you paid taxes registered to vote etc.........but they didn't. They said "it's where you make your home".


it is perfectly legal and there is no set standard within ATF doublespeak for residency.

Nonsense. The "set standard" is clearly laid out in the ruling.


Only that the FFL established within a reasonable course of documentation the customer meets the requirements.
You just have to prove it to the FFL’s satisfaction and that’s not going to happen.

Horseshit.
I do it several times a month.


So..
None of it matters anymore. FFL’s will run away from it these days

Yeah, sure.


and the fucktard call in system probably triggers a hold or denial if 2 different addresses pop up as current.

FBI NICS is not given the buyers address during a NICS check so two different addresses aren't going to "pop up".
Since last summer NICS will ask for a buyers current address if the buyer is denied.





Link Posted: 2/28/2023 11:45:06 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
FBI NICS is not given the buyers address during a NICS check so two different addresses aren't going to "pop up".
View Quote

Actually since FBI NICS gets the transferee's driving license number & state, that address could be retrieved during the check.
Link Posted: 3/1/2023 2:50:49 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bdicki:
Handguns home state only, long guns depends on the state.
View Quote
FPNIA
Link Posted: 3/1/2023 11:08:03 AM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bubbles:

Actually since FBI NICS gets the transferee's driving license number & state, that address could be retrieved during the check.
View Quote

If it was they wouldn't ask me for that info on a denied or delayed transaction.
Link Posted: 3/1/2023 3:02:46 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DogtownTom:

If it was they wouldn't ask me for that info on a denied or delayed transaction.
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Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
Originally Posted By Bubbles:

Actually since FBI NICS gets the transferee's driving license number & state, that address could be retrieved during the check.

If it was they wouldn't ask me for that info on a denied or delayed transaction.

A few of my customers have different addresses on their DL than their residence, because rural routes and PO boxes.  It's rare but it happens.
Link Posted: 3/1/2023 3:17:55 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bubbles:

A few of my customers have different addresses on their DL than their residence, because rural routes and PO boxes.  It's rare but it happens.
View Quote

Quite a few of mine have the address of the county courthouse. Texas allows law enforcement to have that on their DL. Means they have to bring me another gov document.
Link Posted: 3/1/2023 4:25:17 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bubbles:
A few of my customers have different addresses on their DL than their residence, because rural routes and PO boxes.  It's rare but it happens.
View Quote


My DL is not my residence address, it is my mailing address, and it is a street address.
Link Posted: 3/1/2023 4:26:01 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DogtownTom:

Quite a few of mine have the address of the county courthouse. Texas allows law enforcement to have that on their DL. Means they have to bring me another gov document.
View Quote


Yep, got plenty of - 1 Justice Way...
Link Posted: 3/1/2023 6:48:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AKzgalore] [#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DogtownTom:
 
For the purposes of acquiring firearms, ATF considers you a resident of the state where you make your home. It is possible to have multiple states of residence. Where your DL is from, where you vote or pay taxes does not matter....its where you live.
Read ATF Ruling 2010-6 - State of Residence

If you reside in a state that does not allow black guns, you cannot acquire black guns in another state.
If you travel to another state, purchase a firearm, you have to abide by both your states firearms law as well as the state law where you are buying.
If you can provide government issued documentation showing your residence in state B.....for the purposes of acquiring firearms you are a resident of that state.



Reciprocity has nothing to do with anything related to a firearm purchase. If your state firearm permit is an exemption to NICS, that is only valid for transactions in your state.



Like the instructions have always said......CURRENT RESIDENCE ADDRESS.


If you are not presently residing at the address on your valid, government issued photo ID, you must present another government issued document that shows your name and current residence address.

Lie on the 4473 and its a felony. Be aware that some idiot FFL's will often say "your address must match what's on your drivers license"....that's not true and the instructions tell the buyer and dealer what documentation is required. Buyers who hear "your address must match what's on your drivers license" will be committing a federal felony if they don't actually reside at that address.
View Quote


Thanks Tom, but arguably this raises a few more questions than it has answers...what I was concerned about in my OP was for the ability to lawfully transact firearms in another state (whose state laws do not prevent ownership of said long guns; ignore your 'AWB' states, I'm a freedom-loving guy) that I am soon-to-have established residence, but for which I would have no state-issued ID/DL.

So, a few more questions indeed:

1) What is a "black gun"? Black-powder? Didn't think you needed to ship those through FFLs in the first place?

2) You've stated here that government identification from a hypothetical state B could be as simple as a single county-issued utility bill, or as complex as a federal document like passport showing state B residence address. Again, if my DL & CCW are from state A, and the FFL asks me to "use the address on your driver's license" as you posed, but let's say I do indeed have a water bill from county X in state B showing my residence of state B, then what do I put on the 4473, and am I subject regardless to undergo state B's required waiting period (if any exists for my type of long gun & age bracket) as an 'out-of-state' resident because of my state A DL/ID? Furthermore, does a simple document like a county government-issued utility bill even qualify as "identification"? There is no photo of me on it as there would be on a state ID or federal passport...

3) If I bought a firearm online to an FFL in state B and walked in intending to transfer it as owned at my current residence, which would be state B, but I paid for the firearm with the origination business/shipper FFL with a credit card that listed a state A billing address, and the shipper FFL included the receipt with the shipment, would the state B/recipient FFL force me to use state A documentation, even though it's not lawfully accurate because state A address no longer remains my "current address"?

4) You stated elsewhere here that some (presumably) cops who have bought firearms from you just show you their ID showing the county courthouse address. Does this potential observation have any bearing to the discussion here beyond a curious fact, or did you mean to state that in TX, newly found residents can get some sort of county-issued document to prove residence, but shows the county courthouse as an address?

Since I feel the need to make my intentions clear, I wrote this OP as I am preparing to establish residence in another state soon, but wish to keep my original state documentation & identification as I will still hold my original residence, and for tax purposes (). So, I didn't know how to even begin going about buying a firearm in this other state, lest I just planned to transact & ship & transfer all my firearms in my home state A, which is honestly not convenient nor ideal.

EDIT: Revised for clarity; added question about billing address.
Link Posted: 3/1/2023 7:00:09 PM EDT
[#16]
First, I suggest you download the 4473 and read the ID instructions. It will answer every question you have asked.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AKzgalore:

2) You've stated here that government identification from a hypothetical state B could be as simple as a single county-issued utility bill, or as complex as a federal document like passport showing state B residence address. Again, if my DL & CCW are from state A, and the FFL asks me to "use the address on your driver's license" as you posed, but let's say I do indeed have a water bill from county X in state B showing my residence of state B, then what do I put on the 4473, and am I subject regardless to undergo state B's required waiting period (if any exists for my type of long gun & age bracket) as an 'out-of-state' resident because of my state A DL/ID?
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Originally Posted By AKzgalore:

2) You've stated here that government identification from a hypothetical state B could be as simple as a single county-issued utility bill, or as complex as a federal document like passport showing state B residence address. Again, if my DL & CCW are from state A, and the FFL asks me to "use the address on your driver's license" as you posed, but let's say I do indeed have a water bill from county X in state B showing my residence of state B, then what do I put on the 4473, and am I subject regardless to undergo state B's required waiting period (if any exists for my type of long gun & age bracket) as an 'out-of-state' resident because of my state A DL/ID?


You put your state B address. You show the FFL the govt issued water bill, and your state A DL.

You are subject to state B waiting period, etc.


Originally Posted By AKzgalore:
3) You stated elsewhere here that some (presumably) cops who have bought firearms from you just show you their ID showing the county courthouse address. Does this potential observation have any bearing to the discussion here beyond a curious fact, or did you mean to state that in TX, newly found residents can get some sort of county-issued document to prove residence, but shows the county courthouse as an address?



It is a govt ID so it established the person's Identity. Thus all he needs to provide is a govt issued doc showing his address, which is what you are doing above.
Link Posted: 3/1/2023 7:12:19 PM EDT
[#17]
Fair enough; found most my answers on the 4473's info backpages that one never cares to read while in the store + ATF's website. Frankly a contrived & confusing explanation, and to be honest I'd feel much more comfortable just transferring in state A. But I think I understand now.
Link Posted: 3/1/2023 7:43:50 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AKzgalore:


1) What is a "black gun"? Black-powder? Didn't think you needed to ship those through FFLs in the first place?
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Originally Posted By AKzgalore:


1) What is a "black gun"? Black-powder? Didn't think you needed to ship those through FFLs in the first place?

Black gun= whatever gun some city/county/state prohibits. It may be an AR, AK, have a detachable magazine or whatever the antis dislike.


2) You've stated here that government identification from a hypothetical state B could be as simple as a single county-issued utility bill, or as complex as a federal document like passport showing state B residence address.

Thats not what I wrote.
You need a valid government issued photo ID. If that ID does not show your current residence address, additional government issued documents that show your name and your current residence address may be used in combination with that photo ID. Passports do not show an address. A passport is a valid photo ID, but would need another gov document with your name and current address to satisfy the requirement.


Again, if my DL & CCW are from state A, and the FFL asks me to "use the address on your driver's license" as you posed, but let's say I do indeed have a water bill from county X in state B showing my residence of state B, then what do I put on the 4473, and am I subject regardless to undergo state B's required waiting period (if any exists for my type of long gun & age bracket) as an 'out-of-state' resident because of my state A DL/ID?

You follow the instructions on the Form 4473 where it says CURRENT RESIDENCE ADDRESS. You write your current residence address where you are living in State B, hand him your photo ID from State A and a government issued document showing your name and that address in State B.
Because ATF considers you (for the purposes of acquiring firearms) a resident of State B, you have to abide by State B's firearm laws.

3) You stated elsewhere here that some (presumably) cops who have bought firearms from you just show you their ID showing the county courthouse address. Does this potential observation have any bearing to the discussion here beyond a curious fact, or did you mean to state that in TX, newly found residents can get some sort of county-issued document to prove residence, but shows the county courthouse as an address?

I mentioned it because a drivers license may not show the actual residence address. Such buyers must provide additional government documents with their name and current residence address. In Texas, only LE and certain officials can get such a fictitious address on the drivers license.

Since I feel the need to make my intentions clear, I wrote this OP as I am preparing to establish residence in another state soon, but wish to keep my original state documentation & identification as I will still hold my original residence, and for tax purposes (). So, I didn't know how to even begin going about buying a firearm in this other state, lest I just planned to transact & ship & transfer all my firearms in my home state A, which is honestly not convenient nor ideal.

I recommend taking a copy of Ruling 2010-6 with you to your dealer as well as reading the instructions to Question 10 and Que 26.b. on the Form 4473.
It is entirely possible that the dealer is ignorant of what documentation is acceptable and may refuse to read what he should already know.
Link Posted: 3/1/2023 7:46:45 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AKzgalore:
Fair enough; found most my answers on the 4473's info backpages that one never cares to read while in the store + ATF's website. Frankly a contrived & confusing explanation, and to be honest I'd feel much more comfortable just transferring in state A. But I think I understand now.
View Quote

The instructions found in every Form 4473 will answer nearly every question an FFL or their buyer would ever ask about the lawful transfer of a firearm.
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