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Posted: 1/10/2022 2:19:00 PM EDT
[#1]
Money...lot's of money!
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Posted: 1/10/2022 2:26:54 PM EDT
[#2]
The documentation for maintaining military aircraft is amazingly thorough.
And money, lots and lots of money. |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 2:33:34 PM EDT
[#3]
Back in the day there used to be some euro looking fighter jet on Marathon key with a big banner, fly a fighter jet.
Google didn’t find that one, but….. https://www.flyfighterjet.com/fly-l-39-in-florida-usa#toggle-id-2 |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 2:37:36 PM EDT
[#4]
I used to love looking at the classifieds for fighter jets
 I think with the Mig jets for sale you'd routinely see just mountains and mountains of parts which would be included in the sale. That was many years ago and I imagine there's now an additional zero on the price tag. |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 2:45:35 PM EDT
[#5]
Actually you would be surprised. You have to remember that MiG-15, 17's and 21's were pretty basic regarding the airframes.
Seriously, your everyday Cessna or Piper A&P could work on them confidently as the mechanical instruments and flight controls were pretty much the same. Jet engines........... well that is a next level but really anybody signed off on working jets these days can work on those also. They are pretty basic as far as controls and fuel. Again we are talking 1940's/50's mechanical tech here with almost no computer or digital. Overall as others have said: MONEY. The maintenance is probably actually cheaper than pouring oil and JetA into those things. Operationally its just a matter of training. The Russians had a different design philosophy to a lot of stuff. It might surprise you that a little $50 air pump could ruin your day. They used pressurized air systems to drive a bunch of things and if that air pump crapped out on you it would make your day very bad. |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 2:49:01 PM EDT
[#6]
My uncle purchased one of those MIGs they brought over in the late 90's. He could never get it airworthy and sold it. The biggest hassle he had was with schrader valves. Seems the commie ones were vastly different that US ones.
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Posted: 1/10/2022 2:59:36 PM EDT
[#7]
It's not uncommon for a fighter jet for sale to actually be multiple jets with one airframe
that's flyable and another one or two that are parts planes. Back in the '90s when I was getting my license our airport had three MIG-15s at the tie-downs and that was the situation with them. As everyone noted above, you need ungodly amounts of money as well. One of the other jets based there was an F-86 owned by Michael Dorn (Worf from Star Trek) and I'm pretty sure that one plane kept 2-3 mechanics employed full time, or at least kept that shop in business. |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 3:05:48 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: One thing I've always wondered: How do people who own "secondhand" military fighter jets manage to keep them flyable? Privately owned Harrier:  Badass Pilot Buys Own Fighter Jet |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 3:45:23 PM EDT
[#9]
I had the opportunity to work on a foreign military trainer about 15 years ago. Some of the parts on it, no shit, came from a home supply store.
Now, you really want your mind blown google these guys: ATAC Draken International Top Aces Air USA Don Kirlin |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 4:11:21 PM EDT
[#10]
Money, and most are for sale or about to be for sale again.
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Posted: 1/10/2022 7:06:09 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Privately owned Harrier: Probably about five years ago now, he flew it over to Dulles airport for the Airplane Pull/static display event they do in September. I don't think he flys it much at all. |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 7:18:50 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryI was in VMAT-203 when Art Nalls went through Harrier transition. He is a good guy and was a good Marine officer. I think he has pretty much stopped flying the jets in airshows, but no doubt still straps one on, even if its the T-model (two-seat trainer) he also owns. |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 8:14:26 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's not uncommon for a fighter jet for sale to actually be multiple jets with one airframe that's flyable and another one or two that are parts planes. Back in the '90s when I was getting my license our airport had three MIG-15s at the tie-downs and that was the situation with them. As everyone noted above, you need ungodly amounts of money as well. One of the other jets based there was an F-86 owned by Michael Dorn (Worf from Star Trek) and I'm pretty sure that one plane kept 2-3 mechanics employed full time, or at least kept that shop in business. Hanger I was in had one plane (American manf.), but he had racks and racks of military surplus parts. Both owners were extremely wealthy. |
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Posted: 1/11/2022 3:32:49 PM EDT
[#14]
I remember seeing a Mig in Spokane when I flew in years ago.
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Posted: 1/12/2022 12:49:00 AM EDT
[#15]
I knew a young man who had a Mig...
MONEY MONEY MONEY... I would sooner have a drunk Russian girlfriend... Who is always drunk.  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/12/2022 1:37:49 AM EDT
[#16]
I used to fly for a wealthy guy that bought an L-39. I flew his PC-12 occasionally and got to sit in the back seat of the L-39 once. Live ejection seats & g-suits. That thing was a blast. Flight department had a full time crew chief for the 3 airplanes he owned. I could be wrong but I believe he went to school somewhere in the midwest on the L-39. He worked on that jet a lot. Although I don't remember it actually being broken very often, I think it was mostly all just preventative maintenance.
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Posted: 1/12/2022 6:24:03 PM EDT
[#17]
Platinum Fighters just knocked $1 million off the asking price of their F4 Phantom.
I ever hit the powerball, I’m buying it lol. |
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Posted: 1/12/2022 8:37:06 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Platinum Fighters just knocked $1 million off the asking price of their F4 Phantom. I ever hit the powerball, I'm buying it lol.
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Posted: 1/12/2022 8:45:24 PM EDT
[#19]
Joe Gano has a couple of MiGs that he flies out of New Castle (Wilmington), Delaware. Haven't seen it in a few years, but he used to blast off every Sunday morning in his MiG-23. He's got a 21 and some older ones. Warbirds of Delaware.
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Posted: 1/13/2022 10:52:01 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even the US government couldn't afford that fuel bill Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Platinum Fighters just knocked $1 million off the asking price of their F4 Phantom. I ever hit the powerball, I'm buying it lol. My job used be just outside a local airport. The day after an airshow, a private owner of an F4 took off. About 150 ft off the deck, he lit off the afterburners. I admired it until it disappeared, then went back to my job to earn less than he spent on that takeoff. 
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Posted: 1/14/2022 11:34:01 PM EDT
[#21]
In 1999, I was flying into Dulles from DTW...As we descended through 15,000 on the arrival, we leveled off with pretty much just the tail of my DC-9 sticking up out of the clouds. Jokingly, I said to my F/O that the Migs will never find us in these clouds. The kid launched off onto a rant that there were no Mig's flying in the USA, and that I was a moron. Well I might just be a moron, but moments later, the Washington Center controller announced to us;
"Northwest xxx, you have Mig 15 traffic 12 O'clock, three miles, 1'000 feet above you...passing left to right. The kid did not lip off the rest of the trip. 1950's jets, fighters or not, are pretty cheap to own, akin to a T6, or at most a T28. |
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Posted: 1/17/2022 1:22:25 PM EDT
[#22]
Check out Code 1 Aviation. It just takes money. Lots of it.
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Posted: 1/17/2022 1:32:25 PM EDT
[#23]
Guy with a rich wife (Hallmark heir) in Quincy, IL has a bunch of MiGs. Many are fully flyable and they use them in some DoD training.
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Posted: 1/17/2022 9:11:14 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Guy with a rich wife (Hallmark heir) in Quincy, IL has a bunch of MiGs. Many are fully flyable and they use them in some DoD training. 2 MiG-29s for sale there. Delta pilot had a MiG-21, got in lotsa trouble with the FAA doing stuff he wasn't supposed to in the thing. Lotsa MiGs playing lawn ornaments throughout the US. |
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Posted: 1/18/2022 1:33:51 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 2 MiG-29s for sale there. Delta pilot had a MiG-21, got in lotsa trouble with the FAA doing stuff he wasn't supposed to in the thing. Lotsa MiGs playing lawn ornaments throughout the US. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Guy with a rich wife (Hallmark heir) in Quincy, IL has a bunch of MiGs. Many are fully flyable and they use them in some DoD training. 2 MiG-29s for sale there. Delta pilot had a MiG-21, got in lotsa trouble with the FAA doing stuff he wasn't supposed to in the thing. Lotsa MiGs playing lawn ornaments throughout the US. If the Delta pilot you're talking about was Doug Schultz, he died in that 21 off the coast of Vancouver Island. I remember that trouble he got in too. Did an airshow performance where he kept doin high-speed low-level passes directly over the crowd which included at least one FAA inspector. |
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Posted: 1/18/2022 7:27:12 AM EDT
[#26]
I don't know which they burn faster, money or fuel.
I hope I'm sitting down when an owner tells me the operating costs. |
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Posted: 1/18/2022 8:41:26 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Check out Code 1 Aviation. It just takes money. Lots of it. Welcome to ARFCOM. Have any Legos? |
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Posted: 1/19/2022 3:35:40 PM EDT
[#28]
I vaguely remember seeing Czech MiG-21's on Trade-A-Plane for under $50K, back in the mid 2000's. I wanted one just for my back yard.
I think a few were around the $29K mark. They were extra work needed Fixer Uppers.
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Posted: 1/19/2022 4:11:00 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I vaguely remember seeing Czech MiG-21's on Trade-A-Plane for under $50K, back in the mid 2000's. I wanted one just for my back yard. I think a few were around the $29K mark. They were extra work needed Fixer Uppers. I'd want one I could put on blocks and just fire up and rev the engine every now and then. |
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Posted: 1/19/2022 5:01:09 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd want one I could put on blocks and just fire up and rev the engine every now and then. Yeah, that would pretty much top anybody's barbeque gun they would bring over for your cook out. |
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Posted: 1/19/2022 10:32:53 PM EDT
[#31]
I’ve read that a WWII fighter or bomber costs more to maintain. Michael Dorn (Star Trek’s Worf) owned an F-86 for a while. Not sure of current status. I always wondered if he used his Lt. Worf voice when he talked to the tower.
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Posted: 1/19/2022 11:18:23 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve read that a WWII fighter or bomber costs more to maintain. Michael Dorn (Star Trek’s Worf) owned an F-86 for a while. Not sure of current status. I always wondered if he used his Lt. Worf voice when he talked to the tower. The operations, maintenance, and insurance costs for all of them are substantially more than the buy-in cost. Part of the reason the jets are so cheap is because they don't have the collect-ability factor of the WWII airplanes, but cost just as much to fly and fix. |
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Posted: 1/20/2022 9:10:26 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The operations, maintenance, and insurance costs for all of them are substantially more than the buy-in cost. Part of the reason the jets are so cheap is because they don't have the collect-ability factor of the WWII airplanes, but cost just as much to fly and fix. Makes sense. I bet (vintage) hair dryers go through a lot more fuel too? |
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Posted: 1/20/2022 9:54:46 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Makes sense. I bet (vintage) hair dryers go through a lot more fuel too? its relative to the performance level to some extent. Turbojets which were used to power all the early jets instead of turbofans are notoriously less efficient in fuel use. Almost 10x in some cases for similar power plants. Then you get into afterburning models. Some describe that as just pouring fuel into the tail pipe. Its not quite that bad but it can double or more your consumption rate with the burner going. Of course you are not going to get to the mach speeds without them in most cases for early jets. This is where many people get into trouble. They can afford to buy them, afford to maintain them, OR afford to fly them. Lot of people get lured in by the first and can only do one of the others. |
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Posted: 1/21/2022 9:33:18 PM EDT
[#35]
Sort of surprised nobody (Cessna/Textron, etc) has put together a "civilian fighter jet" with some kind of 1950's-style fuselage and some off-the-shelf business jet engines. Just for the dudes who want to be Maverick or the Wingman in their (rich) spare time.
Or does the availability of aircraft like refurbed L-39s and MiG-21s with mountains of spares sort of depress the demand for that sort of thing? |
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Posted: 1/21/2022 9:53:48 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sort of surprised nobody (Cessna/Textron, etc) has put together a "civilian fighter jet" with some kind of 1950's-style fuselage and some off-the-shelf business jet engines. Just for the dudes who want to be Maverick or the Wingman in their (rich) spare time. Or does the availability of aircraft like refurbed L-39s and MiG-21s with mountains of spares sort of depress the demand for that sort of thing? lots of old European jet trainers for sale |
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Posted: 1/21/2022 10:16:37 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sort of surprised nobody (Cessna/Textron, etc) has put together a "civilian fighter jet" with some kind of 1950's-style fuselage and some off-the-shelf business jet engines. Just for the dudes who want to be Maverick or the Wingman in their (rich) spare time. Or does the availability of aircraft like refurbed L-39s and MiG-21s with mountains of spares sort of depress the demand for that sort of thing? The Morane-Saulnier MS.760 Paris - 
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Posted: 1/21/2022 10:25:49 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Morane-Saulnier MS.760 Paris - https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/348/ms760-1365490844-2249580.png Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Sort of surprised nobody (Cessna/Textron, etc) has put together a "civilian fighter jet" with some kind of 1950's-style fuselage and some off-the-shelf business jet engines. Just for the dudes who want to be Maverick or the Wingman in their (rich) spare time. Or does the availability of aircraft like refurbed L-39s and MiG-21s with mountains of spares sort of depress the demand for that sort of thing? The Morane-Saulnier MS.760 Paris - https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/348/ms760-1365490844-2249580.png  |
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Posted: 1/21/2022 10:33:45 PM EDT
[#39]
The owner of my company owns an F-86 Sabre, P-51 Mustang, P-38 Lightning, F4U Corsair, an F8F Bearcat and other planes. Including a G650.
 Attached FileHe's also a billionaire, which I suspect is a major factor in keeping them flying. |
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Posted: 1/21/2022 11:33:20 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can ya hear it???? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Belgium_Fouga_Magister.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Sort of surprised nobody (Cessna/Textron, etc) has put together a "civilian fighter jet" with some kind of 1950's-style fuselage and some off-the-shelf business jet engines. Just for the dudes who want to be Maverick or the Wingman in their (rich) spare time. Or does the availability of aircraft like refurbed L-39s and MiG-21s with mountains of spares sort of depress the demand for that sort of thing? The Morane-Saulnier MS.760 Paris - https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/348/ms760-1365490844-2249580.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Belgium_Fouga_Magister.jpg Hispano HA-200 Saeta-  Designed by Willie Messerschmitt after WWII. |
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Posted: 1/21/2022 11:39:01 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The owner of my company owns an F-86 Sabre, P-51 Mustang, P-38 Lightning, F4U Corsair, an F8F Bearcat and other planes. Including a G650. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/69748/1-north-american-f-86e-sabre-nx1f-hell-e-2249636.JPG He's also a billionaire, which I suspect is a major factor in keeping them flying. Always had a thing for Bearcats and Corsairs. Couple old dudes used to tow gunnery banners for us on Okinawa in F-86s, and they said they were a blast. When I was single I toyed with the idea of buying an A-4. I have a couple thousand hours in them. With no guns or armor and the slats bolted up it would be a rocket, and there are plenty of people around who can work on them. But I would have had to devote my life to its care and feeding. |
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Posted: 1/21/2022 11:51:22 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which does he enjoy most? He's been quoted as saying that the P-51 started his love affair with planes. I'd go with that.  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/21/2022 11:57:24 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sort of surprised nobody (Cessna/Textron, etc) has put together a "civilian fighter jet" with some kind of 1950's-style fuselage and some off-the-shelf business jet engines. Just for the dudes who want to be Maverick or the Wingman in their (rich) spare time. Or does the availability of aircraft like refurbed L-39s and MiG-21s with mountains of spares sort of depress the demand for that sort of thing? Literally, a Cessna T-37/A-37 https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/209343837/cessna-a-37b-turbine-military-aircraft |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 12:06:42 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Literally, a Cessna T-37/A-37 Looking at controller.com, my heart says buy the Phantom. But I know I'd buy the F-104 and kill myself spectacularly.  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 12:08:03 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Literally, a Cessna T-37/A-37 https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/209343837/cessna-a-37b-turbine-military-aircraft Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Sort of surprised nobody (Cessna/Textron, etc) has put together a "civilian fighter jet" with some kind of 1950's-style fuselage and some off-the-shelf business jet engines. Just for the dudes who want to be Maverick or the Wingman in their (rich) spare time. Or does the availability of aircraft like refurbed L-39s and MiG-21s with mountains of spares sort of depress the demand for that sort of thing? Literally, a Cessna T-37/A-37 https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/209343837/cessna-a-37b-turbine-military-aircraft Thrust attenuators baby. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 12:30:35 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Literally, a Cessna T-37/A-37 https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/209343837/cessna-a-37b-turbine-military-aircraft Yeah, that's a military a/c, made for the Air Force(s), and fundamentally the same as if a T-38 was being sold. I was talking about something made specifically for the civilian market. I'm guessing new build modern-standard a/c just simply can never compete with the price point of a military bird whose price has been amortized over 15-20 years of use. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 1:07:38 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the Delta pilot you're talking about was Doug Schultz, he died in that 21 off the coast of Vancouver Island. I remember that trouble he got in too. Did an airshow performance where he kept doin high-speed low-level passes directly over the crowd which included at least one FAA inspector. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Guy with a rich wife (Hallmark heir) in Quincy, IL has a bunch of MiGs. Many are fully flyable and they use them in some DoD training. 2 MiG-29s for sale there. Delta pilot had a MiG-21, got in lotsa trouble with the FAA doing stuff he wasn't supposed to in the thing. Lotsa MiGs playing lawn ornaments throughout the US. If the Delta pilot you're talking about was Doug Schultz, he died in that 21 off the coast of Vancouver Island. I remember that trouble he got in too. Did an airshow performance where he kept doin high-speed low-level passes directly over the crowd which included at least one FAA inspector. Yeah that's him. |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 10:19:16 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, that's a military a/c, made for the Air Force(s), and fundamentally the same as if a T-38 was being sold. I was talking about something made specifically for the civilian market. I'm guessing new build modern-standard a/c just simply can never compete with the price point of a military bird whose price has been amortized over 15-20 years of use. ATG Javelin - went defunct after some prototypes.  Viper Jet - Kit plane, lot of work and engineering went into working out the bugs. dufunct as well, but there are a few of them flying around.  For the cost of these, you could have bought a couple of L-29's. See the problem? |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 4:51:19 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For the cost of these, you could have bought a couple of L-29's. See the problem? Yep. It's what I figured. So many ex-mil beaters (or not so beat) available that it chokes the market for new build civvy "fighter-esque" a/c....which also lack the cachet of being actual mil fighters. We need another military Power to collapse into economic meltdowns, so they sell off their older-gen a/c and mountains of spares. Wonder if T-7s will be available on the civilian market, for the extremely well-funded... |
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Posted: 1/22/2022 4:57:30 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep. It's what I figured. So many ex-mil beaters (or not so beat) available that it chokes the market for new build civvy "fighter-esque" a/c....which also lack the cachet of being actual mil fighters. We need another military Power to collapse into economic meltdowns, so they sell off their older-gen a/c and mountains of spares. Wonder if T-7s will be available on the civilian market, for the extremely well-funded... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: For the cost of these, you could have bought a couple of L-29's. See the problem? Yep. It's what I figured. So many ex-mil beaters (or not so beat) available that it chokes the market for new build civvy "fighter-esque" a/c....which also lack the cachet of being actual mil fighters. We need another military Power to collapse into economic meltdowns, so they sell off their older-gen a/c and mountains of spares. Wonder if T-7s will be available on the civilian market, for the extremely well-funded... |
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