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Posted: 11/5/2020 9:23:38 AM EDT
This thread:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/This-SUCKS-5D-Tactical-is-using-PLASTIC-/4-756845/ - inspired my IDEA to 3D fully print a Jig to complete 80% aluminum lowers (for those who prefer aluminum over a fully-printed lower). I do not own a 3D printer. Just tossing this idea out there, so that someone hopefully picks it up.  One current metal jig looks like this:  That particular jig appears to come with a lot of extras to make the job easier (not sure if they are needed though). Really, just a “top plate” print would probably help out most folks: 
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Posted: 11/5/2020 11:24:01 AM EDT
[#1]
Having used a router jig before...
I don't think that a plastic jig alone would hold up. The router bit rides on the jig itself as a guide. The jig can take it (obviously there is actually wear happening), but I highly doubt that plastic could hold up, at least for long. If someone wanted to attack this, I would recommend they first run experiments to see if a 3D printed jig could actually hold up. My guess would be you need something that can take high heat and have some lubricity, such as nylon. |
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Posted: 11/5/2020 11:59:18 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Having used a router jig before... I don't think that a plastic jig alone would hold up. The router bit rides on the jig itself as a guide. The jig can take it (obviously there is actually wear happening), but I highly doubt that plastic could hold up, at least for long. If someone wanted to attack this, I would recommend they first run experiments to see if a 3D printed jig could actually hold up. My guess would be you need something that can take high heat and have some lubricity, such as nylon. I would definitely print multiple top router jigs or design it with drop in replacements that are considered disposable. |
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Posted: 11/5/2020 4:34:29 PM EDT
[#3]
These are both valid considerations. Thanks!
I still believe somethings possible here; maybe a sacrificial top plate. Anyone else? |
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Posted: 11/5/2020 6:46:43 PM EDT
[#4]
I have seen them before. Not that hard but I would not trust that style of template for plastic.
For the side plate you could just use press in drill bushings from places like mcmaster to fix the issues. As long as you take it easy and don't let the bushings get hot enough to melt the plastic they are seated in it should be fine. I would look at essentially building a trace mill set up for the top plate. Your tool and heat would not be directly effecting your template that way. |
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Posted: 11/6/2020 2:00:19 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have seen them before. Not that hard but I would not trust that style of template for plastic. For the side plate you could just use press in drill bushings from places like mcmaster to fix the issues. As long as you take it easy and don't let the bushings get hot enough to melt the plastic they are seated in it should be fine. I would look at essentially building a trace mill set up for the top plate. Your tool and heat would not be directly effecting your template that way. They already exist? That is awesome to hear!  |
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Posted: 11/8/2020 5:00:37 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would definitely print multiple top router jigs or design it with drop in replacements that are considered disposable. Why not make the whole jig consumable like the polymer 80 jigs? |
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Posted: 11/21/2020 11:12:09 AM EDT
[#7]
Why not a 3D printed jig, and partner up with a machinist to make a simple cheap aluminum plate that goes on top of it as a router guide?
Which can then be sold to us, the consumer. |
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Posted: 11/21/2020 12:08:30 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why not make the whole jig consumable like the polymer 80 jigs? Mostly heat Side plate you could probably get away with as long as you transfer punched all the holes before you start drilling. Top plate is the issue. Cutting metal, even just aluminum, generates a lot more heat then cutting polymer. What ever part of the tool you use to guide your cut will transfer that heat to your jig. By the time you get the pocket milled out the jig will likely have melted or distort enough you will have lost most of your dimensional accuracy. |
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Posted: 11/22/2020 2:48:04 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mostly heat Side plate you could probably get away with as long as you transfer punched all the holes before you start drilling. Top plate is the issue. Cutting metal, even just aluminum, generates a lot more heat then cutting polymer. What ever part of the tool you use to guide your cut will transfer that heat to your jig. By the time you get the pocket milled out the jig will likely have melted or distort enough you will have lost most of your dimensional accuracy. Good Q & A; thanks men! RE heat: as possible mitigators would 1) a bearing against the top plate work to decrease heat transfer? And 2) what about a coolant / lubricant? |
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Posted: 11/22/2020 5:17:45 PM EDT
[#10]
If you print it like a 5d jig, I don't think heat will be that big of an issue. The bit doesn't ride on the edges of the jig. The router plate has 2 pins that ride in the recesses on either side. That is what guides the router, not the edge. Use lubricant (may melt/destroy the plastic?) and I think it would be fine.
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Posted: 11/22/2020 5:48:45 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good Q & A; thanks men! RE heat: as possible mitigators would 1) a bearing against the top plate work to decrease heat transfer? And 2) what about a coolant / lubricant? I like this idea. I want a 5D, but don't want to wait 2+ months. My first thought was using a bearing to contact the surface instead of the end mill. Having not used one of these jigs, I'm not sure how much heat is generated in the lower during milling and transfered to the jig I bet some of the guys in build it yourself would be able to chime in on that. |
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Posted: 11/22/2020 6:10:45 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I like this idea. I want a 5D, but don't want to wait 2+ months. My first thought was using a bearing to contact the surface instead of the end mill. Having not used one of these jigs, I'm not sure how much heat is generated in the lower during milling and transfered to the jig I bet some of the guys in build it yourself would be able to chime in on that. I did just above your post. The bit doesn't ride on the edge at all. Of thr several I have seen done on a 5d (like OP posted) the reciever never even got hot to the touch. |
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Posted: 11/22/2020 6:43:51 PM EDT
[#13]
I think your time would be better spent 3D printing a jig to make more jigs.
Design your 3d printed plastic jig that guides your router around to cut a shape out of aluminum. The part you cut out is your new top part of the 5D style jig and the router base plate. This way, your 3D printed jig only has to be used 1 time. After that, you have all metal jig to mill lowers. |
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Posted: 11/22/2020 8:37:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think your time would be better spent 3D printing a jig to make more jigs. Design your 3d printed plastic jig that guides your router around to cut a shape out of aluminum. The part you cut out is your new top part of the 5D style jig and the router base plate. This way, your 3D printed jig only has to be used 1 time. After that, you have all metal jig to mill lowers. But he would need to make 3 different plates for the 3 different pocket shapes. And then cut 3 seperate aluminum plates to actually use. Seems easier to do it like a 5d, then just print a new one every 5 receivers or so. |
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Posted: 11/22/2020 10:04:22 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But he would need to make 3 different plates for the 3 different pocket shapes. And then cut 3 seperate aluminum plates to actually use. Seems easier to do it like a 5d, then just print a new one every 5 receivers or so. Why would he have to cut out 3 aluminum plates? 5D comes with 1 plate. You just need to 3D print yourself guides to recreate that one top plate. At worst, you have to print 3 guides and you end up with fully metal jig. That seems like a better shot than having disposable printed jigs. And whats more, if you had a plastic jig, what happens when your jig starts getting used up and ready to replace? It starts wallering out and the tolerances start falling. That means the first lower your jig makes is nice and the last one is pretty nasty. Whereas if you make an all metal jig, every 5th lower you milled wouldnt look like helen keller made it. |
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Posted: 11/22/2020 10:36:55 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why would he have to cut out 3 aluminum plates? 5D comes with 1 plate. You just need to 3D print yourself guides to recreate that one top plate. At worst, you have to print 3 guides and you end up with fully metal jig. That seems like a better shot than having disposable printed jigs. And whats more, if you had a plastic jig, what happens when your jig starts getting used up and ready to replace? It starts wallering out and the tolerances start falling. That means the first lower your jig makes is nice and the last one is pretty nasty. Whereas if you make an all metal jig, every 5th lower you milled wouldnt look like helen keller made it. If you have the capability of cutting the guide channels for the pin, what would be the point of even making the 3d print? Just replicate the plate and move on. The guide channels have 3 stepped depths, meaning you would need 3 3d printed guides, one for each depth. I suppose it is doable, but why invest all that extra effort when one well layed out 3d print will work fine? As to wearing out, I honestly don't know how long that would take, 5 was just a wag. Printed in a solid material may last way longer. Want to be sure you don't waste an 80%? Design a cover, maybe 3mm thick with the same hole spacing, but the guide channels expanded a bit in fusion 360. After each 80%, mount the cover over the plate, and if any edge of the guide channel has warped out, print a new plate. |
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Posted: 11/23/2020 4:00:27 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you have the capability of cutting the guide channels for the pin, what would be the point of even making the 3d print? Just replicate the plate and move on. The guide channels have 3 stepped depths, meaning you would need 3 3d printed guides, one for each depth. I suppose it is doable, but why invest all that extra effort when one well layed out 3d print will work fine? No. you make the top plate using the exact same technique you'll use when you mill your lower with your router. Follow a guide, step down follow a guide, step down, follow a different guide, step down, ... |
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Posted: 11/23/2020 6:02:06 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The bit doesn't ride on the edge at all. Quote HistoryQuoted: The bit doesn't ride on the edge at all. I did not realize that was how that one functioned. I am use to the ones that either ride on a router bearing or ride against the non cutting surface of the end mill. Any of those styles would likely melt your template. So lets refer to what I said earlier. Quoted: I would look at essentially building a trace mill set up for the top plate. Your tool and heat would not be directly effecting your template that way. That is pretty much what it is, something like that with guides and template separate of the cutting tool. I don't see any reason it wouldn't work. Doubt the template mounting points would get hot enough to melt the template. You would have to be careful of the chips getting flung up and melting in to the bottom of the template, and it would likely need reinforced a bit to take the cutting forces and weight of the router. Otherwise seams pretty doable. |
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Posted: 11/23/2020 6:28:44 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. you make the top plate using the exact same technique you'll use when you mill your lower with your router. Follow a guide, step down follow a guide, step down, follow a different guide, step down, ... The guide is a set of channels, one on each side. The router plate has two pins that fit in those channels. You use the short pins to make the shallow section, the middle pins are longer and thus constrained by the next level to make the middle cut, and the long pins to do the trigger hole. Thus, for your aluminum plate, you would need to cut 2. I suppose you could make an exact copy in a 3d print, and then set it over each channel you are making in the aluminum, but now you need some kind of alignment method and a much bigger aluminum plate that you would then need to cut and finish to fairly exact tolerances. How the 5d plate works is difficult to explain, but watch a video and you'll understand why it isn't as easy as doing the same thing you would on a reciever. Their method also means tgere is little or no stress on the guide channels, which is why the more I think about it, the more I believe the plate would hold up much longer. Hell, 5d has already gone from an aluminium router base to plastic. |
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Posted: 11/23/2020 6:32:05 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I did not realize that was how that one functioned. I am use to the ones that either ride on a router bearing or ride against the non cutting surface of the end mill. Any of those styles would likely melt your template. So lets refer to what I said earlier. That is pretty much what it is, something like that with guides and template separate of the cutting tool. I don't see any reason it wouldn't work. Doubt the template mounting points would get hot enough to melt the template. You would have to be careful of the chips getting flung up and melting in to the bottom of the template, and it would likely need reinforced a bit to take the cutting forces and weight of the router. Otherwise seams pretty doable. Yeah, I never knew it worked that way until I saw one used. Pretty smart design really. I think you are right, the only real risk I can see (aside from someone gorilla swinging the router around and denting the guide channels) is hot chips. I may throw this into fusion 360 and see how it does. |
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Posted: 11/23/2020 10:40:44 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hell, 5d has already gone from an aluminium router base to plastic. Their "plastic" is fiberglass reinforced thermoset polymer. I have one of them. Its a nice plastic. Its a whole different league than some thermoplastic non reinforced printed part you'll make at home. You may as well be comparing a unicycle to a liter crotch rocket. If you can afford a printer than is capable of printing with fiber reinforced thermoset polymer and an build envelope large enough to print the part we're talking about, then you can afford a real aluminum 5D jig. |
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Posted: 11/23/2020 11:22:03 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Their "plastic" is fiberglass reinforced thermoset polymer. I have one of them. Its a nice plastic. Its a whole different league than some thermoplastic non reinforced printed part you'll make at home. You may as well be comparing a unicycle to a liter crotch rocket. If you can afford a printer than is capable of printing with fiber reinforced thermoset polymer and an build envelope large enough to print the part we're talking about, then you can afford a real aluminum 5D jig. Haha, no, if I had access to the expensive equipment needed to make that router base out of fancy plastic, I would have invested in keeping it aluminium instead, if for no other reason than avoiding all the people complaining that it is plastic now. 5d and their 2 clone companies have explained the reasons they did it, but people are still pissed about the change due to the percieved loss of quality for the sane price. I look at this as a fun experiment, and on a more serious level, an option if jigs are no longer available. We should find out as soon as it is done printing. |
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Posted: 11/26/2020 4:09:14 PM EDT
[#23]
Looks like somebody is a step ahead of us.
https://defcad.com/library/b1c1b1cd-9447-44ff-864c-516a32534ac1/  ETA: I may have typed too soon. Comments are asking for file without the paywall. Looks like this isn't free file. |
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Posted: 11/27/2020 9:27:24 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looks like somebody is a step ahead of us. https://defcad.com/library/b1c1b1cd-9447-44ff-864c-516a32534ac1/ https://media.defcad.com/entityimages/f11446bd5d39469eaf1b2d7b87319c45.png ETA: I may have typed too soon. Comments are asking for file without the paywall. Looks like this isn't free file. Heck YEAH!!! I started this thread in the hope this idea would come about / already existed. GENTLEMEN - START YOUR PRINTERS!! 
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